Forum Post: Break down and response to the Zeitgeist Movements Leader Peter Joseph Merola's video to OWS and the world, from the skeptic project aka conspiracy science
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 19, 2011, 5:28 p.m. EST by 2012ct
(6)
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Might want to read my response of Peter Joseph's video to OWS as well after you read this.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/my-response-to-the-zeitgeist-movements-leader-pete/
This is a video breakdown of Peters 9 minute video response to OWS response on youtube as well as my thoughts on Peter reinventing the Representative Democracy wheel on the global scale. Originally posted on skepticproject.com.
Peter Joseph: Message to Occupy Wall Street & The World | The Zeitgeist Movement http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SQqjTxI3vc
I watched the whole 9 minute video Peter made on this and it doesn't at all fall in line with what OWS is all about. For the first half of this video, Peter basically borrowed concept already presented on the OWS website. This would include re-explaining why the media isn't paying attention to OWS or why the media is downplaying OWS, Police beat the tar out of peacefully protestors, re-explaining that you must get away from violent protesters if their around you, etc...
2/3rd's (3:30) into the video Peter talks about solution in which he starts off with that the video is to not to promote the Zeitgeist movement (around 3:58) yet after saying that he goes in to how technology can create "true sustainability" which is TZM rhetoric. He developed a added appendage to the Resource source based Economic shtick by adding 'Model' (4:29) at the end of RBE so now it's called a Resource Based Economic Model. Just because Peter calls it a model doesn't make it. A model requires that something has been built and has been proven, a RBE is not a model as it has not been even tested it's nothing but a Utopian fantasy land. Then after that even though Peter said this wasn't about TZM he yet again says that if TZM's views are accepted how exactly do we transition over to it.
Towards the end of Peter's boring rant Peter goes into what I would define as hilarity insanity. I couldn't stop laughing at how insane his idea is. Starting around 5:11 Peter suggest a transition, in which he borrows concepts from his movement hierarchal structure such as he suggest OWS to
'Unify into regional movements into a global entity through representatives' and to have meetings with representatives at which to reinforce global unity.
To keep or reform the current system or to basically remove it as a whole. Then to have a world occupy conference for which to get exposure from the media and where reform issues are presented as to push recognition by the political establishment and the public.
Then Peter talks more about TZM and it's reform process. (6:45) which he explains in depth. Peter comes up with a "parallel government" in which a new government is formed at this table of the representatives made up of OWS individuals of each region. Eventually suggesting this will form a global institution at which Peter suggest the current system will be going on and eventually fail. He rambles on for a bit that doesn't make sense around 7:40.
Peter plugs the Zeitgeist Movement even though he said he wouldn't plug it (look back at 3:58) (at around 7:22 he plugs TZM), as Peter also throws out big numbers that he has a 1,000 chapters in his TZM cult yet on the TZM website their isn't even close to 1,000 chapters it's a complete bogus number to make them seem bigger than what they are or basically he's lying.
CT2012 From http://skepticproject.com/
Original post Skepticproject.com http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/4974/tzm-anarchists-propose-hijack-ows-and-install-a-new-governme/
in short, tzm is a globalization movement which beleives in god bots and which operates in fact as a fascist organization.
tzm is not an option, its a problem, ,they are a dangerous cult. they have some good ideas and some very sick and twisted ones.
we need to sort it out, but in the end the cult is doomed and the reason why they are trying to co-opt this movement is they need fresh dupes.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.followthemoney.org/?gclid=CMbY87bB-qsCFUPt7Qod9HE8mQ
http://maplight.org/us-congress/guide/data/money?9gtype=search&9gkw=list%20of%20campaign%20donations&9gad=6213192521.1&9gag=1786513361&gclid=CP61oYbB-qsCFQFZ7AodcTF0jw
http://www.opensecrets.org/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/non-violence-evolution-by-paradigm-shift/
The bottom line is reforming campaign finance. As long as corporations control the $$ politicians need to get elected, politicians will work for the corps.
I would agree with that. I think OWS is indirectly advocating for a collapse so major reforms such as the one you suggested would happen.
First, I don't think it's "insane" at all. If you've read books like: "The Construction of Social Reality" by philosopher John Searle, you'll realise that our Social Reality is nothing more than an unspoken "collective agreement" on the way things work. The crucial point that he makes is that "Institutional Reality" has no foundation in "Physical Reality". All things that comprise our Social System are nothing but "institutions". The "strength" of an institution relies purely on mass "support/use" of that institution. For example, if we collectively agree overnight that money is nothing more than a worthless piece of paper (which it is), we'll be wiping our asses with it tomorrow. Hence the “Institution of Money” will vanish immediately and completely. That in itself will bring the current system to its knees.
Second, the concept of a “Resource Based Economy” is probably the most rational and logical proposal of an alternative system that I’ve ever come across! Is far from a utopia. Do you really have the scientific knowledge and a technical understanding of what we’re capable of doing technologically? Do some research on that and you’ll be amazed! Are you even aware that there are over 6000 patents that have been suppressed by the powers that be? This alone would become a technological revolution of its own if unleashed! This isn’t a “pipe dream”. What do you propose as an alternative that’s more rational and logical than a RBE?
Third, Peter isn’t trying to hi-jack the movement. He, like everyone else is the 99%! All he is trying to do is bring some more structure to the OWS movement by making personal “suggestions” on a hypothetical basis for how it might unfold. Given point one, it makes perfect sense. If we stop supporting the existing institutions, they WILL fade! So, to propose a “parallel government” is brilliant. By doing this, we’re basically saying that “we don’t recognise your authority any longer!” Remember, what you resist, persists! So the question is, a reform or a revolution? If the latter, then what replaces it?
Last but not least. The Zeitgeist Movement is NOT a cult! The movement is as far from a cult as you can get. We need to “think critically” and not be dismissive and critical without a basis. If you have personal reasons for not “liking” the movement, that’s fine, but don’t criticise and dismiss without doing some homework. I wish you all the best and hope that sanity prevails.
If it's not a cult why is it each time I express my opinion about TZM no matter what place it may be someone is always their to defend it? Usually it's the same TZM cult group of people connected to each other.
A Resource Based economy is not based on science, it's a Utopian pie in the sky dream based on communism to attracted gullible people. I read your material it's retarded bullshit. I support TZMers as much as Democrats, tea party, Ron Pauls, Republicans, or anybody else to go out and occupy wall street or occupy whatever is nearby, but I do not support ideas not based on science such as a RBE, or just bat shit crazy ideas being pushed by a very delusional person.
2012ct makes absolutely no sense and has lost all ability to think rationally. Clearly this person is a troll that has the specific goal of defiling Peter Joseph's name. Instead of listening to this horrendous hate-filled rant, why don't you get informed for yourself. I think Peter does a much better job of illustrating his points than does "CT2012" who is just a hate-filled troll.
I am giving a breakdown of Peter Merola's video. I think I upset you and your Utopian ideology, and I'm ok with that. I support TZMers as much as Democrats, tea party, Ron Pauls, Republicans, or anybody else to go out and occupy wall street or occupy whatever is nearby, but I do not support ideas not based on science such as a RBE, or just bat shit crazy ideas being pushed by a very delusional person.
There is nothing called conspiracy science. You could have a scientific theory about conspiracies if you want.... but that doesn't make it conspiracy science. Things are either done scientifically or they are not.
Not sure what your talking about. It's called the skeptic project at www.skepticproject.com
Zeitgeist is not just about sustainability its about keeping the earth from being destroyed. Its not a distraction either and it has been around for a long time. They make a lot of good points about how our economic system works and I dont think you should bash them for trying to introduce a possibility; when you do this your just like FOX news who call you all stupid directionless morons. I know your not but alot of brainwashed americans eat every spoonful of B.S. FOX feeds them. I found his response to be sincere and just like you al,l the TZM people belive in what they are doing. Just like the people who have been praying to god for change, do you think them to be a cult or conspiracy? I am against our current financial regime as well but cut some slack on judgment until you completely understand something.
FOX news does suck I agree with you no that. If you want to watch a news source that's interesting google "MOX NEWS" sometime.. It's a youtube channel and the guy dedicates his life to clipping out important things on the news and uploads them so that you can watch them.
TZM is dumb, Peter Merola is delusional bat shit crazy, and a RBE is not based on science even if you say otherwise. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so. To end it like I've ended the other conversations.
I support TZMers as much as Democrats, tea party, Ron Pauls, Republicans, or anybody else to go out and occupy wall street or occupy whatever is nearby, but I do not support ideas not based on science such as a RBE, or just bat shit crazy ideas being pushed by a very delusional person.
Don't fall for this psychological crap from any one percent goon. It's an obvious attempt to divert our attention from the obscene, unjust, immoral, and illogical concentration of wealth. Donald Trump went on record the other day telling us to blame the government instead of Wall Street and the richest one percent. His goons are obviously online and on air trying to divert our attention. Don't fall for it. Just keep protesting no matter what the one percent goons say or do. Our message is vital. Below is my two cents:
We have been mislead by Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, Bush Jr, Obama, and nearly every other public figure. Economic growth, job creation, and actual prosperity are not necessarily a package deal. In fact, the first two are horribly misunderstood. Economic growth/loss (GDP) is little more than a measure of wealth changing hands. A transfer of currency from one party to another. The rate at which it is traded. This was up until mid ’07′ however, has never been a measure of actual prosperity. Neither has job creation. The phrase itself has been thrown around so often, and in such a generic political manner, that it has come to mean nothing. Of course, we need to have certain things done for the benefit of society as a whole. We need farmers, builders, manufacturers, transporters, teachers, cops, firefighters, soldiers, mechanics, sanitation workers, doctors, managers, and visionaries. Their work is vital. I’ll even go out on a limb and say that we need politicians, attorneys, bankers, investors, and entertainers. In order to keep them productive, we must provide reasonable incentives. We need to compensate each by a fair measure for their actual contributions to society. We need to provide a reasonable scale of income opportunity for every independent adult, every provider, and share responsibility for those who have a legitimate need for aid. In order to achieve and sustain this, we must also address the cost of living and the distribution of wealth. Here, we have failed miserably. The majority have already lost their home equity, their financial security, and their relative buying power. The middle class have actually lost much of their ability to make ends meet, re-pay loans, pay taxes, and support their own economy. The lower class have gone nearly bankrupt. In all, its a multi-trillion dollar loss taken over about 30 years. Millions are under the impression that we need to create more jobs simply to provide more opportunity. as if that would solve the problem. It won’t. Not by a longshot. Jobs don’t necessarily create wealth. In fact, they almost never do. For the mostpart, they only transfer wealth from one party to another. A gain here. A loss there. Appreciation in one community. Depreciation in another. In order to create net wealth, you must harvest a new resource or make more efficient use of one. Either way you must have a reliable and ethical system in place to distribute that newly created wealth in order to benefit society as a whole and prevent a lagging downside. The ‘free market’ just doesn’t cut it. Its a farce. Many of the jobs created are nothing but filler. The promises empty. Sure, unemployment reached an all-time low under Bush. GDP reached an all-time high. But those are both shallow and misleading indicators. In order to gauge actual prosperity, you must consider the economy in human terms. As of ’08′ the average American was working more hours than the previous generation with far less equity to show for it. Consumer debt, forclosure, and bankruptcy were also at all-time highs. As of ’08′, every major American city was riddled with depressed communities, neglected neighborhoods, failing infrastructures, lost revenue, and gang activity. All of this has coincided with massive economic growth and job creation. Meanwhile, the rich have been getting richer and richer and richer even after taxes. Our nation’s wealth has been concentrated. Again, this represents a multi-trillion dollar loss taken by the majority. Its an absolute deal breaker. Bottom line: With or without economic growth or job creation, you must have a system in place to prevent too much wealth from being concentrated at the top. Unfortunately, we don’t. Our economy has become nothing but a giant game of Monopoly. The richest one percent already own nearly 1/2 of all United States wealth. More than double their share before Reagan took office. Still, they want more. They absolutely will not stop. Now, our society as a whole is in serious jeapordy. Greed kills.
My response to Peter's video is that he's talking out of both ends. I can of imagine Peter jumped into this mindset that somehow he is all knowing and decided to graciously offer advice to OWS as because Peter is the only one who know the twoof and how to run a successful revolution. Even though Peter had really nothing to do with OWS and OWS formed after TZM did yet was able to accomplish it's goals within a few months. Yet Peter who I would define as delusional thinks he still has advice to offer to OWS? That in a way would be looked at as offense to individuals who started OWS and at best laughable.
Peter attempts to say he's with OWS and he's not stomping on their movement and then he in the video proceeds to stomp all over OWS ground and even plugs his TZM cult crap towards the end, spitting in OWS face by saying TZM is better and has a 1,000 chapters world wide (funny sometimes TZMers say they have 1,500 chaps, to even 2000 chap). As having 1,000 chapters (doubt it's even close to accurate number) is suppose to give Peter and his cult group some-type of clout.
When Peter refers to RBE as a RBEM (Resource based Economic Model) I started to laugh. This reminds me of the people who associate open source with a RBE. To say a RBEM, it would be suggesting that it's somewhat tangible and that their really is a working model. The problem being is that a RBE has no model so the added appendage Peter added doesn't make it true. I even went to google and googled a Resource based Economic Model and added such search appendages to RBEM such as zetgiestmovement.com and venusproject.com. What I found out is that no where on the venusproject.com website or the zeitgeistmovement.com website does it ever referred to a resource based economic as a model or even call it a RBEM (I could be wrong, if someone finds out otherwise post it up). I did find TZMers saying it's a model but not officially on both TVP and TZM mediums which shows the type of deception Peter is willing to go to push is communistic values system because of course he knows the answers and if he has to twist things up to get people to believe in his crap that's not based on science then so be it.
I had mention up top that Peter is reinventing the wheel and that Wheel is a Representative Democracy. When Peter gets into his parallel government crap he's basically taking a note from how the current way our representative Democracy works as of right now. He's not come up with something new he's basically made newly appointed leaders that supposedly will have clout in their region now. Peter fails to meet the goals of what OWS is about as OWS does not want to reinvent the wheel, OWS wants transparency, OWS wants a flat structure where everybody can contribute, and if their is structure it has to be justified (a little anarchistic value I suppose), and to get Washington hands away from the wall street among other problems.
To emphasize two important problems that Peter has failed to focus on when he talked about his very unoriginal to say the least transitional plan is that he includes no transparency when reinventing the wheel of a Representative Democracy, and neglects what OWS wants which is Democracy in that all people will be involved therefore representatives would go against their cause in the first place. This shows Peter cares not about OWS and it's wanting of transparency, nor does he care about everybody's involvement in the process getting their ideas expressed in the Democratic process. He only really cares about restructuring the government that which Peter Joseph will have control and say over because after all Peter knows the twoof.
Peter Joseph is bat shit delusionally crazy. I can imagine if Peter doesn't get his way like everything else he will deem OWS a government funded group that's out to get him and his cult. I support TZMers as much as Democrats, tea party, Ron Pauls, Republicans, or anybody else to go out and occupy wall street or occupy whatever is nearby, but I do not support ideas not based on science such as a RBE, or just bat shit crazy ideas being pushed by a very delusional person.