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Forum Post: Argument

Posted 2 years ago on July 21, 2012, 1:20 p.m. EST by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I am at a loss to understand what the logic is in arguing that because something used to be a lot worse than it is now, or could be a lot worse than it is now, it should be left alone. In this country, I thought we were always about, "How can we make any situation (even those that aren't bad) better than it is now?" I've heard it about slavery (working poor are better off than black slaves, so what's the problem?) and gun control (they'll figure out another way to cause harm, or governments kill, so why stop individuals from doing the same?).

31 Comments

31 Comments


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[-] 3 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

I've heard it about slavery (working poor are better off than black slaves, so what's the problem?)

I said that the working poor are better off than slaves were, and that is true. However, I never said 'what's the problem?' I am a Progressive, which is a dirty word in many circles these days. We can always do better and should, but don't rewrite history, don't be a revisionist just to suit your argument.

[-] 1 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 2 years ago

I am a Progressive as well, though not an extremist. I wasn't referring to a specific response, but rather to the style of argument I keep seeing. No offense or rewrite intended.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Ok, understood. No worries.

[-] -1 points by Porkie (-255) 2 years ago

The working poor are NOW much better off than slaves were; but this has not always been true - in the not too distant past many of Franklin's "wage slaves" suffered far more.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Sniff.... Snifff.....sniff.... I smell a Capitalist Pig Trollster in disguise Porkie!

Franklins wage slaves? LMFAO!!

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22318) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I'm gonna have to pay better attention - I thought it was pookie.

[-] -2 points by Porkie (-255) 2 years ago

Was it or was it not Franklin that coined the term? Or have you failed to research?

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

You failed the research. It was Jack London who coined the term when reviewing The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. He called it the 'Uncle Toms Cabin of wage slavery'.

The term was in regard to workers conditions during the Gilded Age.... nothing to do with FDR.

[-] -1 points by Porkie (-255) 2 years ago

Wrong: it was definitely Ben Franklin. And, in fact, his words have been preserved for us; meaning if we wish to have this discussion with him, we absolutely can - they wrote specifically to posterity.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Maybe you can show me where he wrote these words.

[-] -3 points by Porkie (-255) 2 years ago

Maybe, just maybe, you should look yourself. After all, they were the greatest philosophical minds of all time; no one - nothing - compares.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

You put up the quote, I countered... you said I was wrong... now its time to show your cards.

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[-] -2 points by Porkie (-255) 2 years ago

Go fish... but I'll give you a hint: there was a time in this country when manufacturing did not exist, and either did the wage-slave because all work was performed on a contractual basis. This discussion can be found there.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

What are you a seven year old? Go fish?

You are pronouncing me to be in error. If I am, I am and I'll concede.... but the burden of proof is on you. So time to indicate where Franklin coined that term. Pretty simple, otherwise you will lose credibility, calling people out with no proof. Your choice.

[-] -1 points by Porkie (-255) 2 years ago

Are you kidding me? Ben Franklin: read him.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

The term "wage slave" was not coined until 1836.

So there.

http://www.citizendia.org/Wage_slavery

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

So far you have the win Shooz.... your source beats mine by almost 20 years! I concede [/ low bow]

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

No prob Geo, I was just funnin'.....:)

I figured it was a union coined term, and there it was.

It just didn't feel correct as a Franklin term as there weren't that many wage earners around in those days.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

We all get to learn... cool. Something ole Pork Pie doesn't seem to understand, trolls seldom do... its all about control to them.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

When you stop learning, you start dying......:)

I plan to stick around for a while yet, and looking that up I learned something and passed it along..

[-] -2 points by Porkie (-255) 2 years ago

That's absolutely false. It was Franklin's argument that the introduction of manufacturing at the time of the Rev would bring an end to contractual labor; that individuals would ultimately become little more than wage slaves. He used these very words. One of the biggest problems here in this forum in that too few are possessed of a thorough knowledge of our history; we are too far removed from the impetus and intimations that created American government and the American Way; and we must do history. Forget Google; forget everything on the Net aside from Google books, Google scholar, and JSTORs - and do your history.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

So in which book does he use the term 'wage slave'? I have read Franklin and I don't recall him ever using that term?

I'm old school... all I use for primary research material is books and peer reviewed journals.

So which book?

[-] -1 points by Porkie (-255) 2 years ago

Damnit, I can't remember. But it's there.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (22318) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

All we need to do is listen to you Pookie?

Nah I don't think so.

[-] -1 points by Porkie (-255) 2 years ago

Well I think you need to wake up a little; a lot of what is touted here as the solution is but appeasement; economy has been undermined... things like food stamps, a subsistence wage, medical care, an expanded socialism as "equality" of quality are little more than the staving off of a rebellion that some fear might interrupt the corporate flow of wealth; we are to be left to "wallow" in this mud and I don't believe we're going to be content there.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22318) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I am wide awake are you sure you are?

Here have another eye opener then share it out keep it in circulation. Feed awareness in others if you want them to get on board and get busy.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/chris-hedges-americas-devastated-sacrifice-zones-a/#comment-787902

[-] -2 points by Porkie (-255) 2 years ago

Well Chris has some very good points, don'tcha think? The problem is that we are powerless to stop these corporations; you are but an arm of the corporation in that you seek to appease the dis-empowered. The mud is fine for the swine but it's not very appealing to most human beings; we want more.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I have nothing at all against Franklin, in fact I rather like the man.

However, he did not coin the term "wage slave".

I provided a link to those that did. If you can prove otherwise, please do.

[-] -2 points by Porkie (-255) 2 years ago

Haha ... listen, in my life I have read several tens of thousands of pages of American history; I can visualize these words in the book, tell you exactly where I was when I read them, but cannot recall the name of the book. You won't find it on the Net; the Net is the reflection of only those points people wish to emphasize. But I think anybody intimately familiar with the Rev, is aware of this debate where Franklin spawns the phrase: WAGE SLAVE. I say this because the creation of American manufacturing was viewed as vital to our success.

I don't think we can truly grasp "economy" unless we view it in its early creation; nor can we understand such things as status, class division, or even manner of governance.

Even so, there are many phrases and terms which were reintroduced here in the 1960s that actually have a history of some hundreds of years - for example, "the Man" or even "pussy" can be dated to at least Hamilton.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Where is the link.

C'mon, I said please.

[-] 1 points by writerconsidered123 (344) 2 years ago

no argument

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