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Forum Post: Are we just a bunch of whiners?

Posted 2 years ago on Feb. 26, 2012, 3:56 p.m. EST by 1sealyon (434)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

In Iran a man has been sentenced to death for becoming a Christian.

Scores of Syrians petitioning for democracy are being slaughtered by their government.

Afghans butcher one another because someone accidentally burned some paper.

Human Rights Watch condemns North Korea as the most oppressive regime on the planet.

Forced abortion and sterilization in China has resulted in a shortage of brides (girls are the first to go) and an increase in the slave traffic of women in South Asia.

More than a million people have died in Somalia from 20 years of civil war and famine.

Meanwhile, in the US we struggle with differences over tax policy, the relationship between business and government, lactose intolerance, and childhood obesity (Somalia would probably kill for those problems).

We really don’t have a lot to complain about.

233 Comments

233 Comments


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[-] 3 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

What kind of fucking logic is that? Hey, you don't have it quite as bad as people who are starving to death, so bend over and take like a man, you whining bitch. Talk about a "slave mentality" ...

[-] -2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Don't you think that it is worthwhile to take stock in what you have relative to most of the rest of the world and be thankful.

Compared to much of the world the the US is the 1 %.

Whining does little to help things anyway; it mainly serves to depress the whiner even more and annoy everyone around them.

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Imagine if our founding fathers had your attitude? Imagine if African Americans during the Jim Crow and segregation era said, Africans are far worse off than we are, so maybe we should just suck it up & stop whining.

Indeed, it's YOUR attitude that is the attitude of the slavish pussy, not freedom fighters (who are anything but pussies). Hey, I say if you want to be a pussy, be a pussy (we won't stop you).

If you like the way things are, then you have no bone in the fight, so why are you even here?

I mean, if you don't like the idea of change, then I guess you have the luxury of laziness.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Human beings by nature hate change. Change is scary and risky.

I admire the American tradition of perpetual dissatisfaction. It is a virtue that brought us everything from the freedoms that you eloquently describe above to cutting edge technology, modern medicine, and general improvement of the human condition worldwide.

There is a huge difference between a person that is dissatisfied with the as-is and solves problems and one that wallows in self-pity mulling their misfortune while blaming imagined ogres of oppression responsible for their lot.

It is rare to find people that effect change and also spend time whining. They are generally too busy and tend to be an up-beat sort thankful for the ability to make a difference. They also seem to be happy.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

I mean, a big movement will attract all kinds of people. That the media tends to focus on a certain kind of person, doesn't say anything about the movement (but it does say something about our media).

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

The news folks do what they do. They are just trying to sell their soap.

Why let them or anybody else grind you down? I try to put things in two piles, things that I can change ( I can vote), and things that I have no ability to affect (I can't make myself taller). I focus on the former and try to ignore the latter. Sometimes I am successful at both, sometimes neither.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Agreed .... I certainly could care less what the media thinks. In fact, I try to avoid the 24/7 chatter box of bullshit that has become our media (as I feel a little bit dumber every time I'm exposed to it) :)

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Do you ever get a chance to listen to NPR? They spend a fair amount of time on a story and are usually pretty thoughtful. They suffer somewhat though from deceit by omission.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

I listen to NPR every once in a while (not very often, but I do listen once in a while, and they're less terrible than the media in general). I also like various internet resources, and PBS has great shows once in a while. But the networks, CNN, Fox, etc., totally worthless.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Networks like fox and msnbc are useful as lessons in the other side of the argument. I don't learn much if I only listen to folks that agree with me.

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[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I can't say what the ratio of male to female posters is

Flight of the Conchords - Too Many Dicks on the Dance Floor

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I'd wager 70/30 male to female.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

if only there was a forum where I could draw more females here

[-] 1 points by Puerile (12) 2 years ago

There are plenty of thirteen-year-olds with low IQs on DeviantArt and Tumblr.

[-] 1 points by TheRapist (36) 2 years ago

Go on...

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Hawaii

Arizona

So, this is a ludicrous argument. No, we are not a "bunch of whiners".

[-] -1 points by Dell (-168) 2 years ago

No -you are a bunch of losers

[-] -1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

We do whine a little, don't you think? Well the president thinks so anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgibkgHeVW0

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

No. I don't think we "whine a little". That has no bearing on my prior post.

:D

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

No whining at all? Ever?

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Talk to me when we get US citizens off the street and back into homes. Until then, no.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Do they have to go into homes, even if they don't want to? Are we allowed to force them?

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[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

We will get those people off the street NOW. Because it is the right thing to do and YOU and YOURS will rue the day, little buckaroo.

[-] 1 points by Misaki (893) 1 year ago

It's exactly the sense of "stop complaining because other people have it worse" that causes people to think that it helps the world for them to offer low prices, even if many other people are also trying to sell at low prices and unemployment is high as a result.

But really, if asked "how to create a billion jobs" most economists wouldn't have a clue. It's relatively easy to imagine giving, say, food aid to Africa; it is more difficult to determine how to give people in Africa more jobs without Soviet-style inefficiency and central planning.

[-] 1 points by tomdavid55 (93) 2 years ago

Here is a link to a protest song I wrote and the video I posted on youtube. If the link doesn't work when you click on it, copy and paste it into your address bar. Please send it to others on your contact list. Thanks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTQ1WOC9RgY

[-] 1 points by kearfpo (1) 2 years ago

Yes.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Agreed, but sometimes I feel better after I a wine a little.

[-] 1 points by brochomsky (208) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Are the Iraqis a bunch of whiners because America invaded them?

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

They don't seem happy, but I don't hear a lot of unjustified complaints from folks in Islamic countries.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

The Wart becomes bored with recuperating from a broken collarbone and asks Merlyn to change him into an ant in one of the colonies Merlyn keeps in a glass tank. Merlyn agrees and tells the Wart to place a reed between the two nests. He then changes the Wart into an ant, and the Wart finds himself at the outskirts of one of the two nests. A sign above the entrance to the colony reads, EVERYTHING NOT FORBIDDEN IS COMPULSORY. In his head, the Wart can hear repetitive broadcasts that alternate between giving orders and directions and playing repetitive, soothing gibberish. The Wart comes across an ant who is busy arranging the corpses of two dead ants. Because the Wart is doing nothing, the ant thinks he is insane and reports him to the central command. Sarcastically, the Wart says he has merely hit his head and forgotten his identity, and the ant finds work for him. As the Wart works, he hears more and more broadcasts that prepare the nest for war with illogical arguments and religious sermons that advocate violence. Just as the two ant colonies are about to go to war, Merlyn returns the Wart to human form.

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/futureking/section3.rhtml

[-] 1 points by badconduct (550) from Ottawa, ON 2 years ago

"We really don’t have a lot to complain about."

You can complain about direction. That is a valid complaint.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

But complaining about direction is like complaining about the weather. It is difficult to change.

What are the top three changes in direction that you would like to see, and what would have to happen to make the changes possible?

[-] 1 points by badconduct (550) from Ottawa, ON 2 years ago

God determines the weather. Man determines his own future.

Less unnecessary war. Restrictions on Government debt. Greater environmental concern; cleaner water, safer food, saving ecosystems.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Not a fan of the global warming theory?

[-] 1 points by badconduct (550) from Ottawa, ON 2 years ago

50/50.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

So 50% chance that humans can change the weather?

[-] 1 points by badconduct (550) from Ottawa, ON 2 years ago

My opinion is 50/50. Sometimes I believe in global warming, sometimes I don't. I'm undecided.

[-] 1 points by badconduct (550) from Ottawa, ON 2 years ago

Do I think we should save the environment? Yes. Do I think we should use less fossil fuels? Yes. Do I think CO2 is warming the planet significantly? Maybe.

Do I think damaging the environment is having consequences on the weather, regardless of CO2 emissions? Yes. Do I think we should reduce our dependency on fossil fuels even if global warming is false? Yes.

Do I think increasing taxes is going to stop global warming, when the Government just prints more money and hands it to the corporations anyway? Absolutely not.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I agree with you that developing alternate energy sources is worthwhile but difficult in the face of cheap oil and natural gas. Plus there are a lot of scams.

What we should demand from our respective governments is a responsible approach to problem solving.

Politicians that describe their energy policy as an all-of-the-above approach are really saying that they can't (or won't) do the heavy lifting required to engineer an energy plan that uses what little resources we have, with measured performance and achievable goals.

The easy way out is to put solar panels on every fourth utility pole at a cost of 3 x the total power that they will ever generate and then brag to the public about it (after they had to pay for it).

BTW I would think that you could use some GW in Ottawa:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJUFTm6cJXM http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/28/science/earth/28solar.html?pagewanted=all

[-] 1 points by badconduct (550) from Ottawa, ON 2 years ago

Source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/03/07/ottawa-temperature-record-warm.html Source 2: http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2012/03/22/science-backyard-bird-count.html

It's a gradual change, but it's more noticeable year by year. The average temperature is going up, there is no question/.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

See pages 69 and 70 for correlation between SO2 reduction and rising global temps. Seems better mapped than the CO2 increase. .

http://www.psc.isr.umich.edu/pubs/pdf/rr11-743.pdf

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Global temps have actually remained unchanged or dropped slightly over the last 10 years.There are also predictions of cooling in the next 30 years.

BTW, do you think that the increase in global temps since 1950 could be tied to the reduction in US production of SO2 (see below)?

http://notrickszone.com/2011/01/22/signs-of-strengthening-global-cooling/

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2011/07/why-global-temperatures-held-s.html

http://www.psc.isr.umich.edu/pubs/pdf/rr11-743.pdf

[-] 1 points by badconduct (550) from Ottawa, ON 2 years ago

Interesting. Two completely difference sources tell two completely different stories.

The power of the internet and deception.

[-] 1 points by badconduct (550) from Ottawa, ON 2 years ago

Actually, I don't think it hit 20 below very much at all this year.

Actually; it was generally 5 degrees or more above the seasonal temperature most of Januray and we have +24 in March, which is about 20 degrees higher than normal. We blew away every record for about a week.

That's why I stopped the video after the first 2 lines. Because it was horribly inaccurate already.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

It' not meant to be accurate, it's meant to be funny. Ya gotta laugh once in a while.

BTW, did you enjoy the winter a little more than you have in years past? Was your heating bill lower?

[-] 1 points by bemindful (23) 2 years ago

Our country has problems, serious problems, but we don't know what true suffering is. Just because there is horrendous injustice in the world doesn't mean our concerns about our future are not valid and that we can't or shouldn't voice our concerns and do what we can to elicit change for our futures, but I like your post because it reminds us of how fortunate we are and to keep things in perspective. While it certainly isn't always true, there is much hyperbole in people's arguments today. For example, some people made comparisons early in the OWS movement to themselves the people who went to the street to protest the dictatorial regimes in Egypt and Libya only to be gun down by those regimes. Another example is this ridiculous woman complaining about the cost of birth control and expecting someone else to pay for it as if she is entitled to free birth control. She is a huge whiner. She attends Georgetown- obviously a prestigious & wealthy school but here she is talking about the "look" on all her classmates faces because they can't afford their birth control because it cost over $3000 over the 4 years they are in law school. Even her figures are exaggerated - I don't know any place where it costs over $50 a month for birth control and for someone who is suppose to be smart, she must not be too bright if she can't find a planned parent clinic. - She comes off as "The biggest whiner " http://youtu.be/xlRC0nsjtKQ.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Average starting salary for a Georgetown Law grad:

$ 105,000

Condoms are 1$. Come on, pony up.

http://www.college-admission-essay.com/law_georgetownuniversity.html

[-] -1 points by TheRapist (36) 2 years ago

Did anybody else read this "biggest weiner"?

[-] 1 points by Progression (143) 2 years ago

It is human nature to desire constant progress. Stagnation is unacceptable.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Why not try a post polling folks in this forum; reply male or female.

You might also include other demographics:

Race

Income

Geographic Location

Left/Right

Etc.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Actually, humans hate progress. We are naturally adverse to change. Change is risky and dangerous.

Think of how we evolved. 100,000 years ago a change in the route back from the creek to the cave could mean a fatal meeting with a saber tooth tiger. Humans prefer the status quo, they get dragged kicking and screaming into progress.

[-] 1 points by HitGirl (2263) 2 years ago

Tell it to the rich. They have the least to whine about. Tell them to stop whining and pay their f#@king taxes.

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I agree, the whining rich are particularly annoying.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Who are "we," Kimosabe?

[-] 1 points by elf3 (2689) 2 years ago

This movement is about why you know those facts - why you care... you're not a whiner - you are someone who can not turn the other cheek. We've all lost sight of this. We feel angry, then guilty over the anger, then we feel depressed and as if we shouldn't complain. We have the voice to complain for the people who can't - we have the forum, we have the microphone, we have the attention. Occupy - tell the world why you are part of this - your fears and who you are worried about. Why occupy cares.
For me it's because I don't want us to become like these photos of elderly who live in cages in Hong-Kong. Countries where the 1% have all the wealth are not pleasant places. I don't want us to become like this... in Hong Kong the poor rent cages for most of their monthly salary many of our countries companies off-shore their products to Chinese factories and don't pay them enough to live an even slightly dignified existence http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/01/05/cages/lg.02.jpg http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/01/05/cages/lg.04.jpg http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/01/05/cages/lg.05.jpg http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/01/05/cages/lg.07.jpg http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/01/05/cages/lg.10.jpg http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/01/05/cages/lg.11.jpg http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/01/05/cages/lg.13.jpg http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/01/05/cages/lg.15.jpg http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/01/05/cages/lg.13.jpg http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/01/05/cages/lg.01.jpg

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Has it gotten worse or better for the people of China since they adopted western market capitalism 20 years ago?

[-] 1 points by elf3 (2689) 2 years ago

They've adopted corporatism which is very close to communism - not much difference not surprising that they would find themselves likely partners

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Corporatism? There has been an incredible improvement in the lives of hundreds of millions of Chinese people.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90882/7684634.html

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yeah, like those workers in the Apple factory. Who knows, eventually they might even take down the suicide nets.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

In rural China life is very tough. People have to find a way survive on $ 1.55 per day. A job in a city (which sometimes includes living conditions shown in the images above) is coveted. People leave their families and travel hundreds of miles to get these jobs (earnings are 5 - 10 times higher in the city) and live in these conditions because their lot in life is presently so bad. As sad as it seems to a westerner the city living is many times better than their old life. The opportunities for their children are also much improved if they live and work in one of the industrial cities. And things are improving. In the last 15 years I have seen southern China turn from a squalid back-water with an inch of human waste in the streets into a thriving modern Provence. And there are not making t-shirts and sneakers. They are making Ipods and air-craft parts. These improvements are all being driven by their successful transition to a free-market, capitalist economy. The growth is astounding, 10 % year-on-year. They still have a ways to go to improve living conditions but they are getting there fast. Their living conditions are certainly improving faster than they are in the US. At least they are living indoors: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/he-is-living-in-a-cardboard-box/ Also, don't be surprised to find this kind of living arrangement in other crowded cities that we think of as modern and humane, like Tokyo: http://www.yesicanusechopsticks.com/capsule/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7833779.stm

[-] -1 points by gforz (-43) 2 years ago

Think about why they are stampeding the gates to get a job at the factory. Might it be that they see that job as an improvement over their previous life in their village?

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

They are being thwarted in their efforts to commit suicide. Life has been hard in China for a long time. Our corporations outsourcing jobs to China wil inevitably improve their quality of life, eventually, and reduce the American standard. Is this progress? It will be, eventually, if you live in China.

Whatever happened to caring about America, to all the anti-communism? It went out the window when some found they could enrich themselves by betraying their own country. We need to find a way that works for everybody and doesn't pit one country's poverty against anothers.

[-] 0 points by gforz (-43) 2 years ago

I am totally for that, Gypsy, if a policy can be worked out that is fair and doesn't kill jobs. Not sure what the answer is. We can't exactly force China to change their ways overnight, although I think wages are rising there slowly and some jobs will be either coming back or moving on to the next China. I can sympathize also with the business owner who feels like they have no choice but to compete to stay in business. If your competitor makes things there and you make things here, paying a lot more money, you're going to have to charge higher prices, if you can. And regardless of what people on a site like this might say, price is a big driver for Americans. On some things I might pay a higher price for one brand over another if I can be convinced that the price disparity is worth the extra quality, but for the same exact item, I'm going to go with the lowest price every time, regardless of where it's made. I have a couple of clients who are very fine people and have owned their manufacturing businesses for many years and they have agonized how to keep their people employed. One who has been very successful says he has fed the company out of his own pocket for years to keep all of his people employed, but says the time is coming when he can't anymore. Says he is tired of swimming upstream against the current and is thinking of just becoming a distributor with a factory in China and a distribution center here.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I just wrote a long and detailed response to you comment and my computer froze-up. so it got deleated. The gist was that the corporate stranglehold over business and government, not regulation, is the factor that prevents American innovation, and further they corporate America does not want average Americans to prosper.

The evidence of this is leagion, but we don't see it because we have been conditioned not to see it.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

We are combating communism in China with a very effective weapon, capitalism, and we don't have to fire a single shot.

There are 300 million Chinese now officially in the middle class. This is a huge market for our products. The #1 sell car maker in China is VW; # 2 and # 3 are GM and FORD, respectively.

[-] 5 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

China is a dictatorship. The Right wing in this country is pushing to destroy American Democracy. It seems the American right wants to adopt the Chinese model, not the other way around.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (2689) 2 years ago

THANK You - hit the nail!!!!

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

You're welcome!

[-] -3 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I do a fair amount of work in China, particularly in the South East where the economy is booming, and I had an interesting discussion with one of my friends there. He argued that his life is more American than mine. He asked me what % of my income was taxed. I told him, and he said, "not just Fed income tax, all taxes". I said, "well that could be 40%".

He told me that he makes $ 23,000 a year which is roughly equal to $115,000 per year in the US, and his total tax is $ 0. If you make under $25,000 in China you pay no tax, none at all. So he smiled and said to me “who has a bigger affect on their lives by the Gov, me or you?”

So I said, "wait a minute, your Gov has repressive laws, like the suppression of free expression by the people".

He said to me, "you don't get it. There are 1.4 billion people here with one central Gov made up of only a few people. Every once in a while they catch one guy doing something wrong and they make a big public trial for him to make an example. He gets the usual sentence (capital punishment, China executes about 5000 people per year, more than any other nation) but the average person does not worry about breaking these laws because the chances of getting caught are like the chances of hitting the lottery (which is also legal now in China, along with private land ownership)”.

So in the end he argued that China beats the US when it comes to limited Gov intrusion on their lives, low or no taxes, and freedom of expression and movement (you can’t drive in the US if the Gov takes away the money you need to pay for gas and monthly car payments).

[-] 17 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

You people really, truely make me sick. You spend 50 years screaming about the evil communists, raking-off trillions in military contracts from the American taxpayers in the process, and then the first chance you get, you get in bed with the those same communists to screw the American worker.

You are shameless. You are a bunch of worthless, greedy, misfits, who should all be in prison. Now it's all about the Chinese standard of living, huh? . . . You think we're stupid enough to believe for one moment that you care one good goddamn more about the Chinese than you do about your own people? Don't make me sick. How did we ever breed a race of such gutless, bloodless, self-serving bastards?!!

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Great point

[-] 2 points by Riley2011 (110) from New Britain, CT 2 years ago

Hey Gypsy, Riley here....great post! I think that part of this movement, whether or not we agree to it, is protecting ourselves and fighting not to become a two strata system of poverty and wealth and at that point, having no rights, because we will be easy to control. If a person needs three jobs to survive, they have lost alot of their fight. Some of this may be true for China, but wealth tends to be spread in the larger cities and folks forget about the country, which makes up most of China. Gypsy ...once again...you have me cracking up!

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Thanks, and I think you are absolutely right! Nothing, nothing, is as disempowering as abject poverty. If they can reduce us to this we are finished, and they know it. They have declaired war of the American people, and also upon the people of the world. Their goal is global corporate fudalism, and the destruction of democracy, and the dismantlement of human rights going all the way back to the Magna Carta. In short they want another Dark Age. It is Evil, Evil, Evil !!!

[-] 2 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

Aye Car-rumba!.. What a Dufas Arguement on that 1sealy's part..! ..

Truly! Executing 5K peeps a year, and the Guy is Bragging about the Chances of most of the people NOT getting executed...

.. Laffn! ...Hey.. if you win the Lottery in China.. you best move out of the Country!...

( i'm still, seriously Laff'n at that post!)

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

It's presented as a serious argument - not the least bit ironically. God, can they think Americans are really so stupid that they can get them clapping over outsorcing American industry to Communist China? Man the arrogance , the effrontery of it!

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 years ago

hehehehehe ;))))))))))))))))

[-] -1 points by Carlitini99 (-167) 2 years ago

tell us how you really feel. jk. See i'm a conservative and i agree with some of what you say. I hate communist red china (as opposed to Taiwan), they can go to hell as they steal our products, spy on our companies and hack into government sites. but it is funny that liberals also like China Andy Stern SIEU likes the Chinese economic model (i.e. the authoritarianism, no opposition).

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I think we have to separate the Chinese system from the Chinese, just as we have to separate the American system from Americans. The Chinese have risen up for democracy and have been crushed. We are rising up for democracy, and they have tried to crush us. The problem is the corruption of leadership in bothe nations, and I think the solution must come from the people in both nations, and in nations around the world.

We are facing global problems that threaten human life, and these tyrannies are getting in the way of solutions.

[-] -1 points by Carlitini99 (-167) 2 years ago

you are an intelligent person, but i can't ever agree with your comparison of the communist chinese government to the U.S. government.

[-] -3 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Success and prosperity in China does not have to come at the expense of the American worker. China has a middle class of over 300 million. All of these people are potential consumers for American products. GM and Ford are the #2 and #3 auto makers in China. The Chinese buy Boeing aircraft, Apple computers, Microsoft services, and California wine.

Also, communism can be defeated (and is being defeated now) in China without firing a shot. The Chinese people are becoming free because of the free market brought to them by modern technology. For the first time in half a century a Chinese citizen can own land, travel freely within the country, and open a savings account.

Technology is making the world a community of human beings connected by electromagnetic waves instead of a collection of Nations separated by suspicion.

Thanks Maxwell.

[-] 6 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Okay, GM and Ford don't make their cars in America anymore. They make the cars they sell in China, in China. That is just one example of how your analogy is bullshit. These companies see labor as nothing but a comodity to be purchased at the lowest price. When the Chinese standard of living gets too high they'll be off to who knows where . . .Indonesia?

In other words they have no national loyalty, no patriotism; and they never leave off waving the flag in our faces. In the end they care about nobody and nothing but themselves. That is psychotic. The anti-social rule the world, and the world is getting fed up with it! I hope you guys like living in Antarctica, cause that's the only place you'll find a welcome in a few more years of this vile manipulation.

When it's to your advantage you promote fear and division. When you think it's too your advantage you start getting all mushy about electromagnetic waves of harmony, or some crap like that. You're shameless - go fuck yourselves.

Over and out.

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[-] -1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Along with many other things Boeing aircraft and California wines are manufactured in the US. Since 1980 manufacturing has increased in the US by 300% and continues to rise. Ford, GM, Boeing, Microsoft, Apple and many others engineer their products in the US. All of these activities create good, high paying US jobs. Those jobs were created to fill the needs of the Chinese market. Is it better to create a job in the US attaching weather strips to a car door window for 8 hours a day, or designing the next turbine for a jet engine? Which job would you rather have?

In 7 years there will be no cost advantage between building a car in Shenzhen or in Kentucky. What will make a difference is having the educated work force to complete the job.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

its better to create a 300 million jobs attaching weather strips. are you stupid/ are you saying that those 300 million middle class chinamen are not doing jus that? yes they are. thats why they are becoming middle class. your logic is crazy.

[-] -2 points by tomahawk99 (-26) 2 years ago

GM and Ford don't make their cars in America anymore? i guess that Ford plant near me in Chicago doesn't exist. Since China has a promising car market the car makers of the world want in. Unfortunately China is a corrupt unfair country, they just want the technology and will eventually make their own cars and kick out the foreigners. So i agree that its stupid to do business in communist china, but Ford and GM still make cars in the U.S.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yes, but the cars they make for China are made in China, which undermines the notion that although foreign trade many be good for American corporations, it may very well not be good for Americans.

GM started moving it's manufaturing out of the US in the eighties. Watch Michael Moores "Roger and Me," if you want the story of GM's betrayal of American Workers.

Often, what is sited as progress for America is really just progress for American corporations, who have demonstrated their absolute indifference to the fate of Americans themselves, in preference of their own grossly inflated profits.

[-] 6 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Noboby here is complaining about government intrusion! They are complaining about runaway, cut-throat capitalism. Americans who take their industries abroad should have to sacrifice their American citizenship! If you like it so fucking much in China then you can stay the fuck over there!!!

[-] -1 points by Carlitini99 (-167) 2 years ago

(cuss word) China. China is big enough to threaten the U.S. economy if we do need to have some manufacturing outside of the U.S. use Mexico or Latin American, or the philipines, countries friendly with us, they don't have missiles aimed at us. But make it feasible (tax breaks, and other incentives ) for manufacturers to keep as much manufacturing here. (cuss word) China

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I have nothing against the Chinese people, who are also struggling against Tyranny, but in the short run, untill we can create some more equitable sytem of global democracy, I don't think we can ignore the power of corporations to manipulate and punish Americans for standing up for their rights as workers. I believe outsourcing to China is a direct way for corporations to punish Americans for standing up for the right to living wages and tollerable working conditions. This must stop.

And you are right. Investing in China, given the current economic paradigm, is clearly against this nations long term national security.

[-] -1 points by Carlitini99 (-167) 2 years ago

see conservatives like me agree with you on some things,

[-] -3 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Can we live without the insults?

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

If we can live without repression.

[-] -1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

In rural China life is very tough. People have to find a way survive on $ 1.55 per day.

A job in a city (which sometimes includes living conditions shown in the images above) is coveted. People leave their families and travel hundreds of miles to get these jobs (earnings are 5 - 10 times higher in the city) and live in these conditions because their lot in life is presently so bad.

As sad as it seems to a westerner the city living is many times better than their old life. The opportunities for their children are also much improved if they live and work in one of the industrial cities.

And things are improving. In the last 15 years I have seen southern China turn from a squalid back-water with an inch of human waste in the streets into a thriving modern Provence. And there are not making t-shirts and sneakers. They are making Ipods and air-craft parts.

These improvements are all being driven by their successful transition to a free-market, capitalist economy. The growth is astounding, 10 % year-on-year. They still have a ways to go to improve living conditions but they are getting there fast. Their living conditions are certainly improving faster than they are in the US. At least they are living indoors:

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/he-is-living-in-a-cardboard-box/

Also, don't be surprised to find this kind of living arrangement in other crowded cities that we think of as modern and humane, like Tokyo:

http://www.yesicanusechopsticks.com/capsule/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7833779.stm

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Free market? What fantasy land do you live in? It is a controlled economy from the top to the bottom. China subsides all the industries it wants to dominate the world market in. If America did that with tax dollars, you would be the first to scream "communism" of "fascism" or "government is a thief" or some other bullshit.

In the meantime American jobs have been outsourced by the millions, hurting OUR economy and jobs. How that workin' for ya? And the INSTANT Chinese labor gets too expensive, the manufacturing jobs there will dry up as well. Manufactures are already building plants in Vietnam to take advantage of even lower labor costs and even more lax labor and environmental protections.

It's a race to the bottom. Glad you're OK with that. Most Americans aren't.

You like it there? By all means move there. and stop polluting our shores with your presence. Libertardian troll.

[-] -1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

In many ways the Chinese market economy is more open and less subject to government controls than the US, Germany, France, and much less than places like Japan where the interference by the Government is severe. The later also accounts for much of Japans economic stagnation over the last 20 years.

It is not completely for lack of trying the Chinese gov does not exert more control, it's just the magnitude of the problem. A few thousand gov office workers in Beijing simply cannot control the independent financial activities of 1.4 billion people. The gov controls a tiny fraction of the free market in China, and they have pretty much given up trying. They are focusing their efforts on political control.

A lot of American companies (Boeing, Apple, Microsoft, Cree, Caterpillar, FORD, GM, Cisco) that create American jobs are selling their products in China. It is one of the fastest growing markets in the world. Prosperity and growth in China is helping the US worker. What happens to the American worker in the future is in their hands. They can do nothing and get tough, menial jobs as pickers in an Amazon product warehouse, or educate themselves to prepare for the best years this country has ever seen. In the next 10 years we will experience incredible growth and innovation, more rapid than we have ever known.

It is an exciting time to be alive.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

The economy is China is determined by the government. It is a control economy. Entire sectors are determined to get support or not. Products are being sold overseas at literally below the cost of manufacture. That is not what free markets do. Doing so destroys businesses in other countries who can't withstand the onslaught. It forces other countries to use their citizens money to create similar price subsidies or try to devalue their own currency, both of which are extremely costly. It even controls virtually all of the rare earth metal sources and uses that control to keep solar panel manufacturers in other countries form competing.

The highly concentrated public sector, dominated by 159 large SOEs, provided key inputs from utilities, heavy industries, and energy resources that facilitated private sector growth and drive investment, the foundation of national growth.

Free market? It is State Capitalism, not free market Capitalism.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

That is exactly what free markets do. Selling products at below coast (or giving them away for free) is what free markets allow. It's called capturing market share and businesses have been doing it since before the silk trade. It is SOP for the Japanese and Koreans. Once share is established and the competition is eliminated prices are increased. At that point new competitors get back in the market. It is not a very profitable strategy, but dumping is a common albeit risky practice. It is part of the free market system.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

No, that is the opposite of free markets. It is government subsidy, government money providing the profits for private business. It is called State Capitalism, also known as a control economy. Free markets means no government involvement. Perhaps you need to look up the definition of free market before you post another silly statement.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

There is no market economy that does not have government involvement. The Chinese gov has less involvement in their markets than the US. That is part of our problem.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Are you kidding me? What planet are you on?

Noun:

An economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

Note. that means that a free market is NOT government subsidized or controlled. And China is not only doing both, but creating crises all around the world. Including via its artificially devalued Yuan. It is creating government monopoly on the world stage, That's not free market. That's Government market manipulation.

You really don't understand what the meaning of a free market is, do you?

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I have worked with companies in China for many years and there is little or no involvement in their operations by the government. Gov involvement in business has generally declined over the last 30 years. They are not gov directed and certainly not funded. They go out of business all of the time. China in many ways has a much more liberal business climate than we do in the US.

Pretty un-biased backup below:

http://freeliberal.com/articles/12132/awakening-dragon-the-rise-of-the-free-market-in-china http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/aug/16/chinese-economic-boom http://www.bjreview.com.cn/expert/txt/2009-08/31/content_214161.htm http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/9109683/China-risks-middle-income-trap-without-free-market-revolution.html http://smurfitschoolblog.com/2011/04/china-free-market-economics-in-a-command-economy/ http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/radar10w2_free_market/

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[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

What country in the world has a market system with no government involvement?

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I have worked with companies in China for many years and there is little or no involvement in their operations by the government. Gov involvement in business has generally declined over the last 30 years. They are not gov directed and certainly not funded. They go out of business all of the time. China in many ways has a much more liberal business climate than we do in the US.

Pretty un-biased backup below:

http://freeliberal.com/articles/12132/awakening-dragon-the-rise-of-the-free-market-in-china

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/aug/16/chinese-economic-boom

http://www.bjreview.com.cn/expert/txt/2009-08/31/content_214161.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/9109683/China-risks-middle-income-trap-without-free-market-revolution.html

http://smurfitschoolblog.com/2011/04/china-free-market-economics-in-a-command-economy/

http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/radar10w2_free_market/

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

You are confusing any market system with the FREE market. They are two different things.

China has single-handedly destroyed the textile industry in the US and most of Europe. Private businesses were producing garment at a cost of, say $10.00 per shirt. The government was setting the price overseas at $5.00 per shirt and paying the manufacturer the difference. TNo private manufacturer in the world could compete with that, unless it took taxpayer money to pay for private industry. China's actions were in violation of international trade agreements and international law. It was destroying competition, not via free markets, but with government controlled manufacturing.

Yes, other governments subsidize certain industries. But not even close to the extent China does. Your claiming that it is a free market success story is belied by the facts. Those fact are that China engages, more than virtually any other country, in government directed and funded monopolistic anti-free market strategies, designed specifically to destroy free market competition globally.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

free markets plural of free mar·ket

Noun:

An economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Exactly. That is NOT a description of China.

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

That first link is describing a type of hotel. It is a discounted "room" for drunk salary men to live in so that they don't have to see their wives in shame until morning. People do NOT live in those!

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Many businessmen live in them during the week while they work in the city and go home to their families on the weekends.

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

They have homes to go to. If they choose to live in capsule hotels, good for them. They can spend the extra money and get transportation home on weeknights. They're not forced to live in chicken wire cages every day just to get by.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

They live there in Japan because it is too expensive or to far for them to commute home every day, same as in China.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

everything looks perfect from far away

[-] 1 points by Listof40 (233) 2 years ago

Spam...

[-] -1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Sshh, dear, don't cause a fuss. I'll have your spam. I love it. I'm having spam spam spam spam spam spam spam beaked beans spam spam spam and spam!

[-] 2 points by Listof40 (233) 2 years ago

Your post is spam... u are intelligent, you can understand why your post is just inflammatory baloney, so don't pretend this is intended to be a reasonable argument, it isn't ... are you whining that others are trying to fix problems? Sounds like it...

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[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Look at America and compare it to much of the rest of the world. We have so much to be grateful for.

America is the 1 %.

[-] 2 points by Listof40 (233) 2 years ago

Again, easy to understand, questionable that u seem to pretend not to get this...

Just because other places have very bad problems....does not mean we shoud not fix the problems we have... not difficult to figure out...

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

One of Americas' strengths is our dissatisfaction. This malady is almost uniquely American.

I have been in a McDonalds and seen people walk out because their meal did not arrive in the expected 2.4 minutes. We always want better, faster, more. That is what drives innovation and progress.

We look at a problem as a challenge. A task to be conquered.

Much of the writing in this forum does not propose solutions that are measurable, achievable, realistic, or timely. They are either implausible musings, a ludistic rejection of innovation, self-hating enviro-phobic paranoia, or they are not solutions at all; just rants consisting largely of tired clichés, bigoted drek, and frequent profanity.

One long depressing and often badly written whine.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Notice how "we" has now turned to "they?"

[-] 2 points by Listof40 (233) 2 years ago

Rather mischaracterized for the most part...many constructive points are on this forum...of course there can be comments here just to intentionally disrupt as well...

Some may hide behind freedom of speech as a tactic in order to inject non-constructive negativity and to ignore valid points... some may even then try to dress up disruptive comments as if some kind of noble 'critique', when not...

We have the responsibility to speak accurately and not distort to serve poor spirited agendas...there may be those who may try to imply that we are not ethically responsible for what we say and how we say it...but is not true...

It is our responsiblity is to speak accurately...it should not be others responsibility to have to refute intentional mischaracterizations...

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Which of all the constructive points proposed by this forum and have now been implemented into public policy is your favorite?

[-] 1 points by Listof40 (233) 2 years ago

Just because ideas or attempts to improve are not immediately adopted by the current political machinery, does not mean they aren't constructive or they don't have merit...

However, not really in the mood.. generally finished with what was going to say for now... thanks tho...

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[-] 1 points by onepercentguy (294) 2 years ago

yeah, we are. asians and arabs here don't really whine so much because they know how bad it could be.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (2689) 2 years ago

Well that's because they are shot if they whine. But I guess we should keep our mouths shut or that could happen next - hauled off to prison or killed without Habeas Corpus for offering an examination of the state. By all means keep your mouths shut and be grateful for what you have - it could be much much worse. Sounds like a threat to me; a threat ordered from the top spun through the media and repeated over and over again ... whiners, whiners, whiners = dissenters to be ostraciszed and driven out - to be kept in check to be propagandized as hater of holy America with it's ideals of self-love, phony ambition, and driven to fits of panting over cheap meaningless products.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Consumerism is an over-all benefit to the society. It drives innovation, reduces the cost of goods, and provides jobs.

I agree with you that people can go too far and become addicted, just like an addiction to alcohol or cigarettes. I read about a mall riot last week among 600 shoppers queued up to buy what turned out to be 300 pairs of $220 sneakers. First, why do you need $ 220 sneakers; second if the economy is so bad where did these 600 people come from that would shell out that much for footwear?

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Part of what makes America great is that it still attracts the best and brightest from around the world. Many of them know first hand how bad it can be in other countries.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

And because of crapitalism, the best can come here and make more money
America does not attract - CRAPITALISM does

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Is capitalism what attracted people like:

Albert Einstein

Ieoh Ming Pei

Madeleine Albright

John Muir

Joseph Pulitzer

Felix Frankfurter

Martina Navratilova

Subranhmanyan Chandrasekhar

Irving Berlin

Saint Frances X. Cabrini

Nikola Tesla

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

This is a list of people who WERE attracted to the America
that has since been purchased by the likes of koch and murdock amd romney
while i don't know their names, I would wager that the best plastic surgeons in Portugal and Canada and Italy have moved to America - for the money

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Don't you think that attracting the smartest and most ambitious people on the planet to our shores helps the Nation?

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

Most of the people on your list CONTRIBUTED a great deal TO America.
If the BEST Italian plastic surgeon can get $5000 for an operation in Italy because of controls, but get $50,000 for the same operation in America because an American billionaire Wall Streeter wants his daughter to have a pretty nose, I dont care.
What is the difference between ambition and greed ?

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Einstein was certainly ambitious, but he did not die a rich man.

For proof that the majority of ambitions people are not just in it for the money look at the data. Only 3% of the people in the US earn more than $250,000. The biggest slice of that ambitious pie earn something other than money for their contributions. Just like Einstein.

American workers are the most productive in the planet. Pretty ambitious. Most of them earn less than $ 45,000 a year.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

I DEFINE ( right or wrong ) the word ambitious as "seeking for myself" money or power. I would not define Einstein as seeking money or power OR ambitious
He was seeking what no one does better American FREEDOM
I really dont understand your Einstein example - if "ambition" was his m otive, how did the smartest man in the world not die rich? In the 1960s, we had top tax rate of 70%+ that attracted the same people

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Ambition can motivate people to pursue money, fame, or power; the pursuit can also be discovery, innovation, healing, construction, or the easing of human suffering. All of these pursuits have been expedited by the American culture, pioneering attitude, confidence, freedom, self rule, and limited government.

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

There are dark sides too. And when you don't include them you are being disingenuous. Also we stole a lot of those thing you contribute to our culture, FYI. Once you begin reading our history, You can see the cost/benefit scales, measuring Capitalism, slide more and more on to the cost's side. And then when you really look, well, you begin to see that the private sector ain't all that, and America is just another average country, and all the average countries are spinning around an average star.

.

[-] -1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Average?

The western world, presently led by the US, has provided the world (in many cases free of charge) with the best systematic machines for the improvement of the human condition ever contrived. These systems are rapidly being employed by other countries (China, India, S Korea, Brazil) and improving the lives of their people at an astounding rate.

Among the western super-systems are:

  • The Scientific Revolution

  • Democracy and The rule of law

  • Competition

  • Modern Medicine

  • The Consumer Society

  • The western work ethic

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/books/review/civilization-the-west-and-the-rest-by-niall-ferguson-book-review.html?pagewanted=all

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[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

Give it time, before too long, we'll have just as much to complain about as anybody else.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Not looking forward to that.

There is a lot of evidence that things have been steadily improving in this country. Sure we have problems but they are small compared with much of the world.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

Can't say I'm looking forward to it either. But from what I can observe, everything has been going down hill in the US since the 1960s. There may have been gains in some areas, but the overall trend is towards decline.

That doesn't mean we couldn't turn the situation around quite rapidly though, if we chose to do so.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

GDP has risen steadily since the 60s.

We live longer.

We live healthier.

Better meds.

We certainly have more stuff.

Bigger homes.

Better cars.

Greater variety and availability of food.

A big thank you America is probably in order.

Being born in America is like hitting the lottery. The rest is all about how you spend the money.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

So GDP has risen, but what about the millions who have lost their jobs or who have lost their homes? I think that in our economy, GDP has been turned into a measure of the extent to which the rich have gotten richer and the poor have gotten poorer.

Now we are at the point where we are beginning to face food scarcity, and in the not too distant future, substantial numbers will begin dying of hunger right here in the US.

I'm all for America, but I think that the American way has been subverted over the past fifty years by global corporations.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Food scarcity? One of the biggest problems among the nations poor is obesity?

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

To give you a few examples:

In the United States, over the past year's crop season, production levels dropped for all three basic grains — wheat, corn and rice. U.S. production of these adds up to 383 million metric tons for 2011, in contrast to 416 mmt two years ago, and 398 mmt last year. (Nov. 9 U.S. Department of Agriculture report, "World Agriculture Supply and Demand" [WASDE]).

Feed rations and conditions for U.S. meat animals have become so tight, that American beef output next year, for example, is already forecast to drop significantly, according to the Nov. 9 USDA report, well known for understating the real picture. In Texas, herds are being liquidated, given the lack of fodder and water. This week a new record price was reached for fed cattle (cattle coming out of the feedlot, fattened by largely grain rations) of $127 per 100 lbs, way up over the 2010 average of $95 per hundredweight.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

As expected the world supply of grains responded to the drop in demand by reducing production (see total grains chart page 2). Not surprising in the face of global recession.

http://www.igc.int/downloads/gmrsummary/gmrsumme.pdf

There are currently 7 billion people on the planet. Using current agricultural techniques and available arable land we can feed about 12 billion.

By the time we reach 12 billion (70 - 100 years) there will be enough improvement in production and engineered foods to feed double that.

Food production is tied to energy. Virtually free energy (the most abundant thing in the universe) will also be available before we reach a population of 12 billion.

People starve in this world not because of food scarcity, but because of poor distribution, corrupt governments, or both.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

I agree with you that all those things could and should happen. However, the financial oligarchy wants to reduce the world's population to 1 billion or less. For this reason, they have brought about the decline in agricultural infrastructure that you mention.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Most financial people I know decry the birth rate drop in places like the EU and Japan. The US would have zero growth if not for immigrants. More people means more customers for their products. Also young people tend to spend while old folks save.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

The financial people that I am talking about are a small fraction of the 1%, so you may not know their type. I'm talking about people who directly finance genocide for a living.

What you are saying your friends believe makes sense for normal people, but some how, I think the people I'm talking about are not normal.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Food scarcity in America?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Whatever you do, just don't look for the man behind the curtain.

[-] 1 points by Bpshebiski (5) from Scottsdale, AZ 2 years ago

I'd say we're just lucky we didn't blow ourselves up yet.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

We are currently enjoying one of the most peaceful times in history. War related deaths in the world as a percentage of population are at an all-time low.

[-] 0 points by DayumShame (148) 2 years ago

We are just a bunch of whiners. Welcome to the United States of Whinemerica.

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[-] 0 points by flamingliberal (138) 2 years ago

troll

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[-] 0 points by alexrai (851) 2 years ago

Well... how about the impending Police State?

That is even more frightening than any economic woes... :p

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Do you expect that America will become a police state like, say North Korea?

[-] 0 points by alexrai (851) 2 years ago

If the current trend keeps up? Absolutely.

It's going to take a really strong leader who believes in individual rights to stop what is going on right now. The technology is there, the social unrest is there, its not that far off.

They are now authorizing unmanned drones with frightening surveillance capabilities to fly over American skies... and that's only the latest, and certainly not the last.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

How many years after the drones start to fly will we become North Korea?

[-] 0 points by alexrai (851) 2 years ago

Probably depends. The slow deterioration of civil liberties and privacy invasions (incidentally the Supreme Court is set to rule on whether Police can attach a GPS to your car without a warrant) will probably take 20 years.

If there is economic collapse coupled with widespread social unrest... I expect less than 5.

I'm hopeful that people will actually start complaining, but if history tells me anything they will line up for a barcode on the back of their neck if it will help defeat those Al-Quada terr'rists and defend freedom.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

5 years after the drones start?

Have you seen all of the great images of distant galaxies taken by the Hubble space telescope. Ok, now imagine the same apparatus, orbiting the earth, only 1000 times better and turned around facing the earth and looking in the window of your house. Folks working for the US Gov have been using that tool for more than 30 years. All that time and they have not turned us into North Korea yet.

[-] 0 points by alexrai (851) 2 years ago

I'm quite sure people will be waving their flags thanking god for living in the land of freedom, oblivious to the fact that they have none, for many years to come.

The NDAA, internet monitoring, smart phone monitoring, FBI agents asking people to snitch on their neighbors, GPS devices on peoples cars, drones flying over the sky, and lets not forget project echelon monitoring private communications. Its a lot worse than 30 years ago...

Also keep in mind that the blind allegiance to the flag is not a lot different than the blind allegiance of North Korean's to Kim Jong Ill; the ignorant ethnocentrism starts in grade school and gets worse from there.

Freedom: You are free to do what we tell you. (to quote a famous comedian).

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I agree with you that we let government control too much of our lives, but they only take what we willingly give up.

Drones can also be pretty handy.

A South African express mail company is using them to deliver over-night packages. This could change everything at Domino's.

[-] -1 points by alexrai (851) 2 years ago

lol, well there's looking on the bright side of things. :)

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

The poorest person in America is far richer than the average person living in Iran or Somalia. Americans are lazy whiners.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I don't think Americans are lazy. They are among the hardest workers in the world. We do complain a lot, which is not altogether bad. It keeps us constantly trying to improve things.

[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

You are partialy correct. Most Americans are not lazy. They wake up, go off to work make a very decent salary. But they are bombarded with taxes. Everything is taxed. They are taxed on every purchase. They are taxes on their property and then taxed over and over again on the same property for the life of ownership. They are taxed to drive, taxed to own a car. Taxed on a tax refund. Taxed on social security. Taxed on the funeral.

Then there are the people that dont want to work. They dont pay income taxes. They dont contribute to society. They dont do anything to better America. But they do get social programs and any many cases, they get a tax refund on taxes they didnt even pay.

OWS comes along and you read about all the protestors in the parks. Taking over a park system that we pay for. They take over a port system that we pay for. They want to take things that dont belong to them.

Today, nearly 50% of Americans dont pay one penny on income taxes yet they reap the same security blanket of those that do and have paid. I hate OWS because these people are examples of lazy people that want to take and not contribute to society.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Your last point is a big problem. Once people discover that the can vote themselves money their dependency on government is irreversible. They become slaves. Slaves that must vote for the people that provide their food, clothing, shelter, everything.

We have a graduated tax system, we should have a graduated voting system. Everyone gets one vote, and each person gets an additional vote for every $1000 that they pay in taxes.

[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

America has witnessed 50 years of a failed liberal agenda. For 50 years we are told each year that the poor get poorer while the rich get richer. Yet the poor continue to vote for rich liberal democrats that has every intention of keeping them poor so they will be dependent on the rich liberal democrats to feed and shelter them. Now three years into obama, the poor continues to get what they voted for,,,,, getting poorer. Why a person would continue to get poorer and vote for the 50 year old promise is beyond me to understand.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

America has not been following a liberal agenda since LBJ.

[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

I think you are correct. 'AMERICA' is not following a liberal agenda,,,,, liberal democrats are. Americans want you to stop. YOU ARE SO CORRECT. Thank you for the correction. You are great.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

And have you noticed that ever since LBJ left office, income disparity has grown wider and wider, undermining the very notion of equal opportunity. So much for the success of conservatism and its values.

[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

Maybe if people were NOT 'encouraged' to seek the government asssistance all their life, rather, WERE 'encouraged' to do better there would not be the growing disparity. I see those that seek better typcially do better. Those that seek NOTHING,,, get nothing. I picked seek better in my life.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Encouraged to seek government assistance? Encouraged? Hahahahaha.

Income disparity was caused by the social safety net? Rotflmfao.

You are insane.

Go shoot yourself in the brain. You'll need al your sniper training, though; that brain being so microscopic in size and ability.

[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

I,,,,,, encourage success. So tell me what YOU encourage then? I wont put any words in your mouth. Once again, "I encourage success." It is your turn.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Compassion.

[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

Really,,, you do like Bill Clinton? Bite your bottom lip and SHOW your compassion,,,,, then leave and go about your business? "COMPASSION" At the end of the day are people less poor and you show your compassion? it must be VERY powerful.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Bill Clinton ended welfare as we knew. I hate his kind. But thanks for trying to conflate issue (again).

Unlike you, i have no contempt of the poor. Unlike you I don't but into the myths that being born poor is a moral defect rather than a matter of luck, and unlike you I see a bigger picture, wherein a system that creates wealth disparity is more responsible for poverty than simple individual choices.

You condemn entire classes of people easily, nonchalantly. I find that despicable. It is not merely based on ignorance, but willful ignorance, the very definition of stupidity and arrogance.

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

And after your pitty, give me an example of one person you have TOUCHED that is less poor today than they were before you touched them. Just one example would be fine,,, just one. Tell us how your great work brought someone out of poverty. JUST ONE,,, PLEASE,,, just ONE EXAMPLE. I work and contribute through my income taxes. Those taxes and other donation I make have been used by YOUR government to encourage more dependency. That is where YOU step in and shed a tear thinking you have done something great. You have not. YOU have encourage that "entire class of people" as you refer to them to be more dependent and come down to your level so you can SHOW your compassion. I dont want them poor and you do.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

You think that the $15 trillion dolar debt is due to Welfare?

HAhahahahahahahahah.

HAHAHHAH

HAHAHAHAHHAA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahhHAHAHAH.

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

I guess you dont follow the federal budget much and see how much is being spent on welfare plus Medicaid and the trending up. We have had a military budget since around the time of the Constitution. The first Income Tax was created to support the military,, ONLY. So,,, hahaha and laugh if you want to.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

You are even more stupidly myth-based than I though. There is NO culture of dependency. That is a meme. It has NO basis in fact. It was INVENTED by your right wing overlords.

Welfare, at it's most used, accounted for 3% of the population. It kept people from becoming homeless, kept children clothed, fed and sheltered. The average stay on welfare by any recipient was 2 years.

Moron.

[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

ONLY 3%? I had no idea. We are tossing $15 trillion in debt to solve an issue for ONLY 3%?????????? If we had $30 Trillion in debt do you think we could get that welfare number you have down to 2.99999%????? You are a joke.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

There is a half full point of view.

For one thing if you went into a coma in 2008, woke up in 2012, and then looked at the current TAX policy, DOD funding, Gitmo, Afghanistan, and the House of Representatives would you guess that Obama had won the election?

[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

Thank God we have republicans in control of the House.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

America loves divided government. We voted for a divided federal government for 19 out of the last 29 years. The grid-lock that results from divided government minimizes the damage that government can do to the people.

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/06/28/the-wonder-of-divided-government/

http://www.answers.com/topic/divided-government

[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

Guess what? I AGREE with you. For every SECOND there is grid-lock, another freedom can not be taken away or another rule added by the liberals. I love grid-lock,, I wish obama would take a very long vacation. I would even help to pay for it.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Gridlock has its merits.

I also like the debt ceiling vote requirement. Debating that can keep them all from doing any damage for weeks at a time.

[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

The liberal agenda is so bad that a five year old can't have a Kool Aid stand in his front yard in America. In America they have made it easy to kill a baby, hard to sell Kool Aid. What a messed up group of people.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

The killing of 50,000,000 of the most defenseless among us will be seen by posterity as the greatest evil perpetrated by this nation. From that I am not sure we will ever recover.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

America may vote in divided governments, but that may not be because they like them. They may simply be fickle. As soon as gridlock sets in, approval ratings for congress plummets.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Everybody disapproves of congress but loves their congress person.

Was it gridlock that inspired the loss of the House in 2010? The 2010 election demonstrates that America fears one-party rule and gov in general.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

It wasn't gridlock that inspired the change, it was right wing "death panel" demagoguery. And congress had a higher rating then than it has now.

As to loving their congress person, in general, that's true, but it doesn't seem to be holding for the tea party assholes that made it in the last round.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

When there is a divided legislature the rating for congress goes down because each side blames the other for the impasse. The rating for individual congress people remain substantially unchanged.

The tea party seems to have quite a lot in common with OWS. Are they not a potential ally?

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

"The tea party seems to have quite a lot in common with OWS. Are they not a potential ally?"

No. The only thing they have in common is anger, but it's at all the wrong things. They are to the right of the right wing, and nothing other that a tax revolt by people who hate the social safety net. Whatever you want to say about OWS, that's not it.

"When there is a divided legislature the rating for congress goes down because each side blames the other for the impasse."

Exactly my point. Divided government is NOT something America really favors. Many say they like it, and for the reasons you cited, but every time it happens, they get pissed, also for the reasons you cited. And the funny thing is, the electorate forgets from one election to the next. Never underestimate the political stupidity and failed collective memory of the American voter.

One example alone: The majority of Americans are Republicans because they believe their party creates more wealth. But the fact is, the economy as a whole, as well as for individuals at every strata, as well as the stock market, as well as employment, has done better under every single Democratic administration than every single Republican one since Hoover. But Americans continue to believe the mythology over the facts. Go figure.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Nope.

The ONLY two things that the two groups have in common is opposition to the NDAA, which is common across the political spectrum, and crony Capitalism.

That's it. No more.

The bullshit about OWS supporting Ron Paul is a blatant lie. You may not have noticed, but pushing for him on these fora is actually a violation of the riles, and can result in being banned. The "end the Fed: issue is one that Ron Paul infiltrators have pushed, is not a stance of OWS, and is NOT supported by more than a minority. Opposition to Obama, especially in terms of looking to defeat him in the upcoming election is likewise supported by a minority here. Most are terrified about his NOT winning, given the alternatives.

And the other issues are too big and too numerous to bridge in any sustained way. If the two groups were to merge, I would not only cease my support, but would work as hard as I could to defeat it, and many here feel the same way.

The Tea Party is mostly anti-union, anti worker, anti-regulation, anti social safety net, anti-universal health care, anti left, (and anti middle) anti-tax, pro unfettered free market capitalist, pro right wing libertarian, overwhelmingly republican, overwhelmingly pro white rights, anti immigrant, anti gay rights, anti-choice, pro-gun, Ayn Rand loving jerk-offs.

The farther away OWS stays from them, the better.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Maybe Americans are smarter than you give them credit for. They voted for divided Gov 66% of the time in the last 50 years. We had divided Gov during nearly every administration that you site above. Maybe the trick to economic prosperity is divided gov?

Issues that the tea party and OWS agree on:

  • Crony Capitalism (Don't bail out wall street bankers and mortgage bundlers that contributed to the economic decline)

  • Government by the people and for the people

  • Get government out of the business of picking winners (big banks and investment corps) and losers (small businesses) in the market.

http://www.answers.com/topic/divided-government

https://docs.google.com/View?id=dhsxmzm7_19fcdzskg5

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Sorry, no. For one thing, OWS does NOT agree on the third point at all, as far as I can tell. Second, OWS was founded - specifically - as a left wing movement, a place for the left to gather and work out ideas and actions for transforming society. The Tea party is unabashedly extreme right wing, small government, anti-welfare state, free market capitalist. Those are all anathema to the overwhelming majority involved in OWS. Communists and Fascists both hated banks but there could be no alliance between them. Similarly (I'm not saying OWS is Communist or that the Tea Party is Fascist) there can be no legitimate alliance between the two extremes in American social/political action today. The enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend. A wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf. The Koch Brothers and DIck Army are NOT friends of OWS, and their agenda should not be confused with OWS's aims.

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

You forgot the the prisons in Japan which still operate rather inhumanely under guidelines established over 100 years ago.

Yes, what I see here for the most part is a bunch of whining, hopeless, losers.

[-] -1 points by newbornsheep (3) 2 years ago

except you all start riots!

[-] -1 points by TheMisfit (48) 2 years ago

"Are we just a bunch of whiners?"

Yes.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I find that a little wine usually makes me feel better.

[-] 1 points by TheMisfit (48) 2 years ago

You brought up many valid points. The majority of the world is going to the crapper and we have people complaining about problems that are our own creation. The people kept voting for scumbags based on the letter behind their name and ignored their records, associations and funders and then cried when those same people ended up being corrupt. The really sad part is, from reading these forums, they haven't learned and will vote straight party line ticket this November and expect something different. Pathetic really.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

40% vote Dem and 40% vote Rep no matter who is running. The other 20% elect the president. The 20% are the folks to focus on.

[-] 1 points by TheMisfit (48) 2 years ago

I am the 20%!

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Well, how are you feeling about now?

[-] 1 points by TheMisfit (48) 2 years ago

Marginalized.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

You are a member of the most important group in this election. Which way are you leaning?

[-] 1 points by TheMisfit (48) 2 years ago

I am looking at Gary Johnson on the Libertarian ticket. I cannot support Obama or Romney.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

The choice is not only for the person but also the party. Like it or not we live in a two-party nation and there is a huge advantage to having one party control.

The question then becomes which of the two dominant parties best matches your beliefs. I found these two links instructive:

http://www.truthandliberty.com/Politics.html http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=2265

[-] 1 points by TheMisfit (48) 2 years ago

I always fall into the Libertarian category, but even they don't fully represent my views.

[-] -1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

While the social safety net in the United States is not the best in the world (in most of western Europe it is far superior) it is not exactly fair to compare the US (or for that matter any industrialized democracy) to a third world nation.

Losing your home or your job, or going into bankruptcy or facing totally unmanageable medical expenses, while certainly not imminent life or death experiences, are by no means at all pleasant, nor is it at all fair to characterize people who are in distress about such real tragedies as whiners. Comparisons are odious. While some human tragedies are qualitatively greater than others, a tragedy is a tragedy and in no case should it be trivialized, whether it is an imminent life threatening situation or the loss of a home.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

So the worst thing that ever happened to you is the worst thing that ever happened to you?

[-] -2 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

yes you are just a bunch of whiners.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

You're pretty new here to be using such inflammatory language

Do you have anything useful do add?

[-] -2 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

Well since no one is adding anything useful, I simply decided to do what others are doing. Secondly, even if I decided to use sound arguments it would be totally useless because you see people (whether occutards or anyone else) hate to lose. So there is no way i can convince anyone that their point of view is incorrect or slightly off the mark. It's impossible. No one ever accepts defeat whatever data, facts you place before them.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I've found that to be a major problem whenever (R)epelican'ts are offered certain truths.

Have found that to be so too?

[-] -2 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

It doesnt matter whether that Republican or Democrat. Go to any goddam part of the world, from the most ancient tribes to the developed culture of this country its the same. Even in corporate board rooms, do you think people just accept others ideas. Sure, it can be said that the more educated you are (and Democrats are more educated than Republicans) the more open you will be to others ideas but ego is still there. And on the internet where you and I dont know each other, neither of us has any social pressure to accept the other person's argument, no matter what the evidence.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

What's the same in "ancient tribes and board rooms"?

You failed to make the connection, and just went on as if you did.

It's also sad that you think the World is Godamned.

Do you always think in these kinds of terms?

You're not really a banker are you? You just play one on the internet.

[-] -2 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

The similarity in 'ancient tribes and board rooms' is that logic and reason are usually grossly ineffective to persuade people. As to whether or not I am an ibanker, frankly you would never know. For all you know I could be some loser sitting in his mom's basement and wasting his time or I could be a Goldman paid stooge or anything in between. I am certainly not going to mail you a copy of my paycheck as proof of my employment. So yes, assume whatever you want.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

OK. I'll assume your not a bonkers banker.

I'm also pretty certain you know next to nothing about anthropology.

Here's what I do know about you.

You've done nothing but pump out the usual (R)epelican't propaganda.

So I will assume you didn't come here in support of OWS, in any way shape or form.

Am I correct?

[-] -3 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

I hoped that by now you should have realized I am anything but a republican. Get that right first and then we can talk about my employment. As for anthropology, I am as much an expert on it as you are. My job requires me to know a narrow set of issues in depth and therefore I prefer to not dabble in issues that are not related to my job performance, dont have that kind of luxury.

But you are spot on about one thing - I dont support OWS in any shape or form.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

You make comparisons on subjects, you know little about, and assume I know even less.

I know that now.

You work in a job that concerns narrow issues, and you concentrate on that so hard, you think of nothing else.

You spout (R)epelican't style propaganda, yet claim you are not one of those.

You don't like anything to do with OWS, yet came here,just today, for an undisclosed reason.

That would make you an enigma, at the very least.

[-] 0 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

Enigma. Yes. I am Batman

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I hope you left your tool belt at home.

[-] -2 points by tomahawk99 (-26) 2 years ago

California leads the pack of whiners. We need to be winners not whiners.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Disagree. California should continue wine-ing. Best plonk on the planet and it helps the trade deficit.

[-] 0 points by tomahawk99 (-26) 2 years ago

good point, then the golden state should continue exporting wine but keep the whine in state.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Deal.