Forum Post: [DELETED]
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 24, 2011, 9:30 a.m. EST by anonymous
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I Googled for old posts of your to verify that you're for real, since there will be people who will accuse you of being a sock puppet government conspiracy psy-ops agent bank executive 1%er troll. You seem to be for real and that's sad, because that means that yet another clear thinker is leaving the room, which makes cooler heads like me into a constantly-shrinking minority here. Your story sounds very similar to mine except for the part about how much you volunteered and donated and contributed before your disillusionment set in. My only contributions have been intellectual, but IMHO intellectual resosurces are what this movement needs more than anything, because they can't even manage to accomplish the selection of a clear objective, much less accomplishing that objective. They're so intellectually dysfunctional that they can't even agree that selecting an objective is worth doing. It's dumbfounding. With the loss of your mind, the movement just became slightly more radical and dysfunctional, and further from accomplishing anything.
Maybe all of this illustrates why the 1% are in charge in the first place.
I agree with you. Even if trolls are surreptitiously posting messages that happen to express the truth, then they are inadvertently contributing to the cause. Those who attack you are forgetting that the #OWS first and foremost demands freedom of self-expression. It appears clear thinking may be taking a backseat to paranoia. When that happens, the trolls win.
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Why would somebody trying to contribute constructive criticism be branded a "troll"? That doesn't make much sense.
And the original post was definitely not written by Gawdoftruth, if that's what you're implying. His writing is nearly incoherent compared to the original poster. Definitely not the same person.
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This person recognized that trying to disrupt ports, public transportation, and block traffic was and is a horrible idea and just plain wrong! I watched the movement closely as well and drew my conclusions a lot quicker then they did based upon the evidence. There are some intellectuals in the movement with clear heads but there are far to many ignorant people that have no idea what they want (except more money) or how to get it. Many are looking for the equivalent of a free handout (all jobs are equal and deserve equal pay).
If what you do is anything other then intellectually persuade people with your ideas or make a statement by not buying products and supporting big businesses then you are to a certain degree a terrorist at heart. You may not kill or maim but if you actions prevent others from going where they want to go, buying what they want to buy, or expressing their opinions which may be contrary to yours (branding people as trolls just because they hold a different opinion) then you rob people of their freedoms and rights. Those actions are indeed founded in terrorism.
Ah I see, yes. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I agree about how the trolls are driving potential supporters away. I complain about in almost on a daily basis. I really do think that the foaming-at-the-mouth Occupiers who shout down and filibuster all dissent are doing more damage to the movement than any kind of external force ever could.
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I'm very familiar with Occupy Occupy because they're so funny. And unfortunately I'm also very familiar with John Bassist. He was part of the first impression that I formed when I first came here, and interacting with him in October was the beginning of my disillusionment with Occupy.
Just because someone thinks differently, doesn't mean it's a conspiracy against some spot in cyberspace. People think differently. Accept it. If this forum was people who all thought the same, it'd be kinda pointless dontcha think?? Name some names. Not links. Use your own words. Half of the posts on this site are filled with 2000 links that nobody will look at. That's the other problem, everyone is afraid to name names, or go off half cocked because someone has a question you can't answer. We use the web as we see fit. People post on the site as they see fit. If you can't handle it, then YOU leave.
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Yep, I'm a cop. We're all cops. Every single one of us. The ones who aren't cops are bots. Set up just across the street, watching you furiously jab away at the keyboard whilst you sport your tinfoil hat. So fuck (see, unlike the bulk of people here I'm not afraid to spell the "dirty" words) you too, you paranoid freak.
I don't have anymore authority (I didn't even say anything authoritative, by the way) than anyone else. If you wanna be a close minded jerk off, fine. This is the kind of stuff the OP was talking about. Nobody listens to you in real life, so you come on here and start whining. This is why your movement is losing steam everyday. The bulk (not all) of it is just a large screaming mass that nobody wants to deal with.
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You've tried to discredit me first. I did provide a counter argument. You also try to insult and discredit other members of this board( remember the thread about thraymasque you deleted??) You then provide biased links.
Yes, there are undercover cops there. A lot of these camps can't/won't police themselves. There have been ODs, shootings, suicides, and prostitution. All the while, people drag their kids to these thing to live in filth. The cops should be there. In your last video, you show what happens when the (potentially independant) cops try to disrupt things, they got bounced out.
And nobody wants to look at 8000 links. Especially when it's a super long page or an hour and a half of biased "info".
How is saying I'm supposed to be one of these undercover cops not discrediting?? How is saying I speak from artificial authority not discrediting?? Just because I call you paranoid and ask for proof doesn't mean I'm a cop, nor "artificial authority"-whatever that means. And yes I did call you close minded because of you saying, "if people refuse to use the web as intended, then why the fuck are they on it". There is no intended way of using the web. You say you've been spouting this knowledge, but it's just biased linking. A video of chopped up quotes means nothing. I can make the same video where he claims he's a ham sandwich. Yes, there is a need for cops to be at some of these. People do drugs(and have ODed), people have been shot(not by cops), there has been at least one suicide. Some people have been caught using tents for prostitution. The bulk of the people at these camps can't/won't police themselves, so the actual cops come in to keep and eye on things.
All I asked you to do was name names. I have yet to see any real people trying to "tear you down from the inside", with out them having some stupid post. So, if you think you know who's who, then name some names instead of a bunch of links. Then you insult me, and insinuate I'm a cop. If you actually read the second paragraph, you will see the counter argument repeated.
The reason the OP wants out is because things are getting worse on this site and on the ground. They are correct. There is no organization. There is no clear message. The "movement" is losing steam because of all the back biting. All it has become is just a screaming mass
[Deleted]
U mad?? So we have to subscribe to the web as you see fit, of we have to "get off the fucking(learn to spell the damn word like an adult. If your going to put it up there, at least have the balls to spell out the whole word) computerYou'r info is biased. Give up some independant info, maybe more people will listen. Use you own words, and provide unbiased links to back it up.
The ID 'mum52' was just created 5 days ago. So the story behind this page just doesn't wash. Show me 5 supportive entries by 'mum52' in which he/she types against the corruption of Wall Street, and/or the obscene concentration of wealth. Show me one page created by 'mum52' in which he/she does the same.
I'm not buying it. This page appears to be a carefully written attempt to give the illusion of credibility while attempting to discredit the movement or replace the 'mob' with something more easily dealt with. Like a leader who could be whisked away behind closed doors and bribed with a fake job on some worthless committee in some futile attempt for true government or Wall Street reform which would ultimately never come.
I can't support any illegal tactics but I do support that 'mob' and I do support this site. Its here and there that the masses are being informed of the profound corruption on Wall Street and the obscene concentration of wealth.
If this movement continues to grow for another 5 years, it will have a profound effect on Wall Street and similar streets around the world. The rich will have virtually no choice but to compromise their Earth shattering greed.
OWS. Throwing a monkey in the wrench. Say that reminds me.
"The income gap between the rich and the rest of the US population has become so wide, and is growing so fast, that it might eventually threaten the stability of democratic capitalism itself." -Allen Greenspan testifying before congress in spring of '05'.
"Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society." -Albert Einstein 1949
" The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions." -Albert Einstein 1949
"The United States economy is like a poker game where the chips have become concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, and where the other fellows can stay in the game only by borrowing. When their credit runs out the game will stop." -Mariner Eccles Chairman of the Federal Reserve under FDR
Robert Reich and a dozen more prominent economists have gone on record with similar views.
You're probably wondering. If these guys were/are right and the wealth was heavily concentrated just prior to the Great Depression, how did we recover?
That's simple but not well known.
There was a partial redistribution of wealth from the mid '30's to the mid '70's.
So why are we in this mess all over again?
Again, very simple. The wealth has become concentrated all over again. We have allowed the rich to become too rich. Now, we are paying for it.
Another filibuster.
The ID 'mum52' was just created 5 days ago. So the story behind this page just doesn't wash. Show me 5 supportive entries by 'mum52' in which he/she types against the corruption of Wall Street, and/or the obscene concentration of wealth. Show me one page created by 'mum52' in which he/she does the same.
To ALL of the detractors of the Occupy & 99% movements.
These movements are young, practically newborn yet.
But they have already made a huge impact. The repugnants blinked with they're blocking of the payroll tax cut extension.
Yes these movements need to get organized, and that is happening as time goes by.
You don't hear people in public office refer to us much as yet to being responsible for any consideration and action they have taken so far to extend the Payroll tax cut or to delay on passing the pipeline approval. But the fact remains that these two issues were heading down a different coarse until we started protesting, and signing/circulating petitions.
The Powers that be are more then a little concerned that they are slowly ( though faster every day ) losing they're automatic sway over the public.
And you can credit that fear of recognizing us, to all of the attacks going on in this forum. Trying to separate us. Trying to break down our growing influence.
Consider the volume of attacks are not going down but are becoming more strident. Power showing fear in a tangible way.
I agree with you mum52, but still have hope. I came on here looking to participate, to take part in the solution. I had hopes that this form was filled with people less nuts then the venom spewing fascist. That this was a group committed to promoting and moving forward social change ( universal health care, education reform, income inequality....) Instead I see the exactly the things you have noted and more. A post about the White House Christmas tree in the context of separation of church and state . Really ??? We don't have enough major issues to tackle? Not to say that isn't a debate (stupid one still) worth having over a beer , or after we have some head way on Citizen United or many of the other items that need attention now due to the immediate impact on our country and our lives. This movement has such a chance to make a difference. Such an opportunity to impact so many lives around the world. And, in one way or another will for better or worse. Has thought been given to the power you'll be handing the 1% to discredit any other movement in the future? How hard it will be to get solid hard working activist to sign on to the next cause. How this is proving to the onlookers at home that would have got behind a social movement with purpose that it is exactly what the corporate media portrayed it as. This is not what democracy looks like it's what anarchy looks like. People with ideas that oppose the floundering and call for action, agenda , or consensus get shouted down and scorned.
It's sad. Seemingly a wasted huge opportunity.
Mum52 is right to a large degree about the lack of an organized message and the absence of leaders who can articulate the message. That may yet come but public interest and support are waning or, worse, completely turned off. It is time to recognize reality and make a strategic course adjustment. A push is as good as a shove.
I understand your frustration. There are a large number of brilliant people here - some with brilliant ideas - some with impossible ideas - some with crazy ideas.
No one, left, right, or center can deny the wake up call OWS trumpeted.
BUT NOW WHAT ?
Some of us see continued marching and occupying as the GOAL.
We have AWAKENED the world - it is time for action.
Don't give up because of some crazies - all of us are not here, in this forum.
Look at the brave brothers and sisters ACTION in Occupy the Homes!
That is the real thing! I am working on overturning Citizens United
Don't give up on us! Don't give up on you! Or they will win!
Are you ready
.....................FOR ACTION ?
Are you ready to
.....................DO SOMETHING REAL ?
Are you ready to
......................join 83% ........ of Americans ?
We must not
DEMAND that we WANT THEM.to give to US
We must
DEMAND GOALS THAT WE WILL ACHIEVE FOR OURSELVES
Because of the Supreme Court's decision,
we cannot accomplish anything significant, without FIRST -
Overturning Citizens United !!!
Ending Corporate Personhood !!!
83% of Americans already agree on it
as stated in the ABC/Washington Post poll
In the the PFAW Poll -
Wanna take your family on vacation?
Convince the 7 year old and the 10 year old to go to Mt Rushmore.
Then try to convince them to go to Disneyland.
Prioritizing this goal will introduce us to the world – not as a bunch of hippie radical anarchist socialist commie rabblerousers – but as a responsible, mature movement that is fighting for what America wants.
IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE
I feel that using the tactics of the NRA, the AARP an the TP – who all represent a minority – who have successfully used their voting power to achieve their minority goals - plus the Prohibition Amendment tactics – bringing all sides together - is a straight path for us to success that cannot fail to enable us to create and complete one task the MAJORITY.
Join the OWS Restore Democracy Working Group at
..............http://www.nycga.net/groups/restore-democracy
regular meetings 6-8PM @ 60 Wall St – The Attrium @ Wednesdays
Plan details with supporting documentation at:.... http://bit.ly/vK2pGI
IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE
TO END CORPORATE PERSONHOOD
Whereas --
The OWS Declaration of the Occupation of New York City states that
"a democratic government derives its just power from the people,
not from corporations."
and --
the ABC News/Washington Post poll found that 83% of the entire US population
opposes the Supreme Court Citizens United decision,
which affirmed that corporations are people.
and --
by supporting the overturning of corporate personhood,
OWS clearly aligns itself with the vast majority of the American people
who support ending the fundamentally flawed and anti-democratic concept
that corporations are people.
therefore --
We support a constitutional amendment to end corporate personhood.
That post could be generously described as a filibuster, but thank you for stating so clearly that you see protesting for the sake of protesting as your goal.
HELL NO I am not protesting - I AM ACTING - to get rid of CU what are you DOING to attain our goals?
You said, "Some of us see continued marching and occupying as the GOAL."
Mums2, Iam totally agreeing with you but I will continue to support OWS because there is no other option to save this country.
Well back away if you feel you must. But in doing so you remove your voice from being one of the possible educators and any ability to inspire unity and positive action. No I feel that if you were for-real, that you would stand by your guns and keep on with positive advocacy. There is not a whole lot that you can influence from the out side all by yourself.
All a statement like this does is try to force disunity, and try to sow confusion.
thank you MUM52 for this. You were alive in the 60s and its happening again but now we have the technology to make a difference. You are right we need to be more organized. There are brilliant minds out their.
Mr Mum52, good piece, i totally agree with you. Except for the before you make complete fools thing, that ship has already sailed.
The ID 'mum52' was just created 5 days ago. So the story behind this page just doesn't wash. Show me 5 supportive entries by 'mum52' in which he/she types against the corruption of Wall Street, and/or the obscene concentration of wealth. Show me one page created by 'mum52' in which he/she does the same.
I'm not buying it. This page appears to be a carefully written attempt to give the illusion of credibility while attempting to discredit the movement or replace the 'mob' with something more easily dealt with. Like a leader who could be whisked away behind closed doors and bribed with a fake job on some worthless committee in some futile attempt for true government or Wall Street reform which would ultimately never come.
I can't support any illegal tactics but I do support that 'mob' and I do support this site. Its here and there that the masses are being informed of the profound corruption on Wall Street and the obscene concentration of wealth.
If this movement continues to grow for another 5 years, it will have a profound effect on Wall Street and similar streets around the world. The rich will have virtually no choice but to compromise their Earth shattering greed.
Thats why 'mum52' and so many others are trying desperately to discredit the 'mob'.
I'm not falling for it.
OWS has got a real bad image. I know that they do have some good clear ideas but it is the violence that turns me against this movement. I am not sure if it is just the younger members causing the violence or what?? Either way it seems like the older generation would step forward and police it, to make sure it does not happen. I am an independent and not a member of the Tea Party etc. One thing differs though between the Tea Party and OWS is that the Tea Party are peaceful people
The ID 'mum52' was just created 5 days ago. So the story behind this page just doesn't wash. Show me 5 supportive entries by 'mum52' in which he/she types against the corruption of Wall Street, and/or the obscene concentration of wealth. Show me one page created by 'mum52' in which he/she does the same.
I'm not buying it. This page appears to be a carefully written attempt to give the illusion of credibility while attempting to discredit the movement or replace the 'mob' with something more easily dealt with. Like a leader who could be whisked away behind closed doors and bribed with a fake job on some worthless committee in some futile attempt for true government or Wall Street reform which would ultimately never come.
I can't support any illegal tactics but I do support that 'mob' and I do support this site. Its here and there that the masses are being informed of the profound corruption on Wall Street and the obscene concentration of wealth.
If this movement continues to grow for another 5 years, it will have a profound effect on Wall Street and similar streets around the world. The rich will have virtually no choice but to compromise their Earth shattering greed.
Thats why 'mum52' and so many others are trying desperately to discredit the 'mob'.
I'm not falling for it.
[Removed]
Richard Gates said--
No, I'm saying this person became frustrated by the trolls here and plants in the protests. The things described are not the actions of people in the movement. They are the actions of those trying to make us look like something they can discredit. So far it seems to be working.
But an analysis of motive, indicates that mum52 is a paid agent !
First look for motive- then facts.
Bye!!!
The problem is they never actually adress the lies and misleading claims the left drills into their heads such as
1-claiming the bush tax cuts caused the deficits and only benefitted the rich, yet obama wants to extend 80% of the cuts, which is the cost for all but the top 2%, accroding to the cbo. The majority of the tax cuts benefitted the middle class.
2-.The rich have loopholes which allow them to pay less. paying 15% tax on capital gains isNOT a loophole as EVERYONE pays the same 15%.
3- Obama is part of the 1% group they are protesting
4-The biggest lie is that it was a wall street bailout, even though 3 of the top 10 wall street firms went out of business, TARP spent far less than expected, and teh gov't actually earned a PROFIT on their loans to wall street. This was not a bailout but lstructured as loans and equity, so that the gov't was rewarded if there was upside, Hard to call it a wall street bailout when less than 5% of the companies receiving money are actually wall street banks
5-Funny how the left claims Obama saved the auto industry yet complain about the wall street bailouts, never mind that GM and Chrysler still owe the taxpayers about $40 billion.
6-t's pretty hard to take seriously a protest against corporate evil when they are communicating with i phones and facebook, both of which made their founders billionaires,
7-Actually, obama wants to raise taxes on some of those 99%. Top 1% starts at AGI of about $350k so if Obama is raising taxes on anyone over $200k, that includes some of the 99%.
8- Not sure why unions would protest privatizing social security and let a portion be invested in stocks. Must be too stupid to realize that their pensions are outsourced to private managers and mostly invested in stock bonds and other financial assets.
9-Love to argue about the number of people bankrupted by medical expenses, yet they seem unaware that almost 75% of those people actually HAD insurance.
10- 50 million people don't have insurance is not the same as 50 million citizens cant afford health insurance. Strip out non citizens (legal and illegal), those making over $75,000, those who would qualify for medicaid or medicare and the real number is about 12-15 million, far less than 50 million.
11-learn the difference between income and wealth- being a millionaire does not mean your income is over $250k and we don't tax wealth. The top 1% in income is not necessarily the same top 1% in wealth.
12- The top 1% is not a staic group but a ranking. Implying that the top 1% from 30 years ago are the same people who makie up the top 1% and experienced the increased income shows a complete lack of logic.
13-learn the difference between marginal and effective rates. NO ONE pays the marginal rate, and the effective rate for the top 1% is about 5x higher than the lowest taxpayer
Top 1% pays an average effective rate of 29.5%
earns 19.4% of al pretax income pays 39.5% of all federal income tax pays 28.1% of all federal taxes
The top 20% also pays 42.9% of all ssi tax The top 20% also has an effective average rate of 25.1%, while the bottom 20 % pay 4%, with a negative rate on income taxes.
BOTTOM LINE: Top 20% have an avergae rate SIX TIMES HIGHER than the bottom 20%
http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/tax/2010/AverageFedTaxRates2007.pdf
14 The real irony is how the left villifies the Ryan Medicare plan for privatizing the program and relying on vouchers to subsidize premiums. Yet they blindly support Obamacare, which 1) legally forces everyone to purchase insurance from the same universe of private firms they claim aren't qualified and too greedy to run Medicare and 2) relies on a voucher like system of premium payment support to those who can't afford the in...
I voted for Obama. I am not in support of Ron Paul or the Republican party. At all.
Isn't it nice we live in a country you can vote for who you want...............................................................for now