Forum Post: Ah Hah
Posted 12 years ago on Feb. 2, 2012, 7:18 p.m. EST by Phanya2011
(908)
from Tucson, AZ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I just realized why conservatives hate Barack Obama so much. He has been promoting the concept that most threatens the status quo: that people can work together to get things done much more quickly than if they are at odds with one another. The immediate reaction was "Ya wanna bet? We'll show you that people cannot work together." If the 99% learn to work together in spite of the clearly obvious differences among them, the status quo is doomed.
[Removed]
That is a very sane and logical argument that I support 100%. Unfortunately, it is a bit too idealistic I am afraid. I really wish people would come together as you described. However, it appears that the human animal is not yet socially evolved enough to realize such a beautiful vision, and seems with each passing year determined to march toward slow annihilation via global environmental destruction, overpopulation, WMDs such as nuclear and biological, etc...
Love the vision, but how do we get there with so much disagreement and polarized points of view.?
We continue to behave as if it is true for us, because working together is indeed the only solution to life on this planet. The extremes at each end can continue to yammer at one another, show how clever they are and how insulting they can be, while the people willing to do something get busy implementing new ways of doing things.
Phanya, you have a beautiful soul. It gives me encouragement to know that there are people like you on the planet. I hope there are a lot of them. I just worry that you are in a small minority.
Every majority was a minority at one time. The advantage of working together is that (a) no ego gets inflated or deflated; (b) ideas flow freely and are adapted readily because (c) if something doesn't work, it is no longer considered a failure, but a learning process. The first step to change is believing it is possible. Help us all by believing in it. There is no faith without doubt, after all, just as there is no courage without fear.
That is beautiful. I wish you could convince the nay-Sayers of the world to join you.
Ah, well; naysayers can feed on each other. They accomplish nothing. Ignore them.
There are people working on it. The guy who started the websites below has been at it since 1989! Great ideas about changing the entire structure that has failed us. It's a lot to digest, but each bite is full of good stuff :)
http://www.learn-from-history.com/debt-forgiveness-new-banking-system.html
that's an interesting site Phanya... thanks... what your take on this ? ... http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-need-to-create-our-own-bank/
I read that the other day. I think it would be good for you to actually contact Robert at the learn from history site; he is looking at alternate ideas for banking and for corporations to work. I spoke with him on the phone and he seems very bright and reasonable. He's 73 years old and working from home. You can contact him through the website at the phone number listed. Remember Pay It Forward -- basically about multi-level marketing of good deeds; well, we need to multi-level market new ideas and put them to work.
yeah... I skimmed thru it.... I'll read it well when I get a chance ;)
LOL Nobama is a joke and so is everything that he promised. You people still want to act like he is the messiah, yet all he is is a Socialist. He will be voted out on his ass along with his nasty hate filled wife! I hope and pray that your kind will move to another country, maybe somewhere like Canada where they will give you everything that you want so that you will be dependent on the government. I am so tired of seeing your ugly faces and your nastiness on the news. And here is a bit of info for all of you. You are a joke, the country knows this, the more that you "protest", the more that we laugh. JOBS, get one!
Asking for information does not denote fear, instead it means I am interested in hearing you present your ideas, opinions and reasons for them. Instead of offering ideas, opinions and your reasons for them you offer nothing.
Seems you are afraid to present your ideas, opinions and why you have them. This is indicative of a weak mind that makes baseless accusations and know that these accusations cannot be defended with real reasons.....
Anything else you need a hand with?
No need to give you information, obviously you and your kind have all the answers....so you think.
Typical. Make a claim that you cannot explain or present reason for and it is always the other individual's fault when they aren't able to read your mind.
Let me tell you kid. A blank slate is a hard thing to glean information from.
Kid? LOL I am older than most of you "people"...or should I say animals. And no one even mentioned the word "fault" until you said it. Funny, you animals always want to blame someone....hmmmm maybe look in the mirror sometime and say to yourselves "I really need to get control of my life. Make some goals. Get a job." No one owes you anything.
Knowledge, information, reason, facts and reality are not your friend kid.
We own more than one home, been married without cheating on my spouse for 24 years, make a good living [anniversary in Paris, Rome and Athens].
Need help with anything else kid?
I hope your kids are doing as well
I know there is supposed to be a dig in there but I can't find it. Care to point it out?
No dig at all, I meant what I said: I do hope your children are doing as well as you have done. After I posted, I realized you didn't mention having any children, so I made an unfounded assumption. The point to be taken, if any, is that the world as it exists today is not as friendly to young people as it was when you launched your career.
My wife said she did not want children and since she has to carry them for nine months, has to give birth, has to deal with the changes to her body and so on, I figured it was pretty much her choice.
No children.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. But my younger brother is doing better so I have done some good :-)
Edit Inserted:
The world is not friendly at all. How do I say this without sounding like an asshole. The world is what people make it. I suspect you are talking about the US and the environment our youth has to deal with to get a job. You're right, right now it sucks far worse than it did when the previous generation was starting out.
I think you have me mixed up as far as when I started out and me actually having a career. I worked multiple jobs, dealt with asshole bosses, had great bosses but I did n't start out until I got off the streets. I worked but lost jobs because I wasn't able to eat, had no place to sleep or keep clean clothes and so on.
I would work and then buy a gym membership so I could shower. This did nothing to keep my clothes clean, eat or give me a place to store stuff. The police would clean the homeless out and throwaway their/my stuff weekly or every couple of weeks.
Then there was always other people that would steal stuff. I think the most difficult part was not eating for days and working a full-time job.
Good for her. I chose not to have children as well; no justification needed, but frankly, it was a crappy gene pool :)
My wife doesn't have to justify anything to me, these are just the reasons she saw as why she did not want to have children. I suspect there were more.
Blame???
What's the blame it on Obama flavor of the week?
It's all the (R)epelican'ts have done for over 3 years!!
You're nuts just to suggest it.
Obama has done NOTHING for this country and will continue to destroy it piece by piece. He will not be happy until this is a socialist country. Bottom line...
So get off your ass and help fix the Country. The first step might be figuring out what is wrong with the country.
When my basement is flooding I first find out why, then I stop the water from coming in and then I pump out the water and do whatever else needs to be done.
What is the primary causal factor for the problems in this country?
Um........Bush smashed into a wall already.
You missed that? Sleeping?
Obama's trying to get it to the repair shop, and you want to "blame" him for the parts that are still falling off?
Sleeping, you are.
LOL I was waiting for that "it's Bush's fault". When is it Obamas' turn to take the blame? He has been in office for 3 years now.
What part of smashed it into a wall are you misunderstanding?
Not catching the metaphor?
It takes years to restart after a recession, even with a cooperative house. (R)epelican'ts have been everything but. Years, and this one is still going on, for most of us.
The job losses suffered under Bush, are improving steadily.
Exxonmoble been posting profit records every quarter.
hehehehe ... damn are you scared ... calm down it will be ok ... asshole
LOL Scared? I think not. More like relieved that he is going to be out on his ass soon.
And if you could pull your head out of your ass long enough to take a good look around you, you would see why I am glad that he will be out.
Your "realization" is sophomoric and just plain stupid. You need to first learn about Conservative Ideology before you can pontificate in any meaningful way. Right now you're just sounding uninformed and lame.
But you're a Leftist Drone and may not be able to rise to any further level of enlightenment. I suppose you still can fall back on your "hope and change" still,after all that seems to be working out real good for everybody.
Your Messiah is one and done!!!
that word "conservative" is so diluted as to be meaningless as applied to politics. many called bush conservative, yet he spent like a drunken sailor on wars, medicare D (was huge), expanded the government with new agencies and entire departments, he was fiscally reckless, expanded gov't in peoples' lives, etc...
Conservative actually is not "diluted". This is easy you have Conservatives and RINO's.
Bush is a RINO,McCain is a RINO,Rove is a RINO,the elites of the Republican Party are RINO's. Thus they back Romney,who is a RINO.
Pontificate . Sophomoric , enlightenment. What a brain!
Spoken like a real parrot!! Proglodyte want a cracker?
I prefer to eat the rich
Yea, please d tell us about what "Conservative" means to you.
Well, I'll tell you .
Conservative means:
A. Being independent
B. Paying their financial obligations
C. Not looking to the government for their support.
D. Having a plan for the future
E. Putting money aside for retirement
F. Putting money aside for emergencies.
G. Helping others in time of need without "jeporadizing" their own well being.
H. And finally, when things go worng and they lose everything they have the fortitude to dig in, start over and make things happen that will get them back on their feet without being needy and expecting others to do it for them.
That's what being a "conservative" is all about.
What a good list. I'm guessing our biggest corporations are not conservatives.
Well, I'll tell you .
Thank you.
Conservative means:
A. Being independent
Own a couple of homes, collected unemployment once that I can remember some twenty or more years ago.
B. Paying their financial obligations
No late payments or delinquent payments in say twenty or more years.
C. Not looking to the government for their support.
Been on my own since both my parents were killed, one in 73 the other in 79 or when I was 16. Spent some years on the streets. Does that count?
D. Having a plan for the future
If things don't change we will be moving to Greece and moving my money and business to Greece. I have a plan.
E. Putting money aside for retirement
Since I have never asked for anything from our oh so fucked up government, it won't start when I retire.
F. Putting money aside for emergencies.
Like when a tenant can't pay the rent? Been there, done that.
G. Helping others in time of need without "jeporadizing" their own well being.
Fuck you. Why should I help those in need when I pay taxes, pay my own way, never asked for anything from anybody else. That is contradictory and places everything on the backs of the individual. It is the government's responsibility to do this, not mine.
That said we put two of my siblings through college, helped two sets of tenants and worked with safe streets and our community to rid our neighborhood of drug dealers.
H. And finally, when things go worng and they lose everything they have the fortitude to dig in, start over and make things happen that will get them back on their feet without being needy and expecting others to do it for them.
What a crock of shit. But here ya go kid. At 16 I put a sibling in foster care, spent a few years on the streets, been shot, been stabbed and so on. Now we own a couple of houses and help others.
I owe you nothing, I owe this country nothing. Yet here I am fighting for people that have less than I do while you and those like you sit on your ass blaming these people that have nothing for the problems in this country.
It is the corporations and the Courts that screwed this country up. That and idiots that vote for people like George W. twice, voted for Reagan, voted for Newt with ethics violations, cheating on all his wives, Mit bankrupting companies for his own profit.
If you want these scumbags Clinton who cheated on his wife, Kennedy who cheated on his wife then you get what you get. Your stupidity impacts the rest of us.
Richard Allan Davis should have been taken out back and bullet put in his head. Is that conservative enough? Not for the reason(s) you might think. Revenge, punishment do not equate with prevention. Putting a bullet in the head of a confessed child raper and killer prevent him from ever doing so again.
It is as simple as this.
Where is it I stand? Am I a conservative or a liberal?
That's what being a "conservative" is all about.
Well unimportant, sounds a bit like bragging, I can brag too...
I'm more of a moderate, in some areas I lean to the liberal side.
I paid cash for every home I've owned, I have no debt of my own (couple of identity theft items I am fighting is all), I've always understood the concept of paying it forward, by making my contributions via government and in person, I also understood and still do that by paying it forward I've earned myself a place in this world.
I've probably helped over a thousand people, some financially, some by simply listening, some by just being available. I like to thing the last two hold more real value than the first.
Conservatives have a plan, "If things don't change we will be moving to Greece and moving my money and business to Greece. I have a plan."
That's yours, I don't run. I stay and do my damnest to make a difference, I hold out hope, because without hope there is nothing...
I have a plan. I stand my ground. Right here, right now.
That is a liberal, that is a moderate, that is a human being.
If it's right, you fight.
We helped others as well. Instead of Christmas gifts we, and my wife's entire family, give to the heifer organization [www.heifer.org] They do good work so I am sure the gifts we have given are still helping others. I go through my life helping others. I see people missing out on the opportunity to make a positive difference in the lives of others everyday. People never realizing that these opportunities do not happen all the time.
I have been fighting for a very long time. I am tired. We were preparing to leave this country when the OWS started and changed our plans. Now that we see others fighting, so many others fighting, we have decided to stay and fight along side of these people.
It is our choice, mine and my wife's. After burying a mother, father and brother and losing another brother and having to be the father to my two remaining siblings I am tired. I don't know if you can understand this or not.
I have perspective, others in America and around the world have and have had it far worse but I am speaking for myself.
Speaking personally, I can understand being tired, been that way myself for some long years. Today I am old in body and soul and yes, I am tired. But I am also stubborn, and I've always been a fighter, fighting for what I believe is right.
We hear so much about the 'Christian values' placed in our constitution, yet the neglect to mention the values of the Native peoples that influenced our beginnings...that neglected part is the actual soul of our Constitution.
That soul, the belief that we are created equal, that we all have basic rights, that we all stand together as one, that is worth fighting for, it is right.
Those of us who have fought before, no matter how old, how tired, how sick, will dig down and find the strength to fight again...because it's worth the fight.
I am not a Christian; the Muslim would consider me an infidel because I am simply a non-believer. The Constitution was written by mostly slave owners and written so that it did not infringe upon their way of life and rights to own slaves.
I refer to the 'bleed over' of philosophies. It is a given that the majority of the originators of the Constitution were slave owners who would take care to protect their way of life.
Yet we can not deny that included in their number (the originators) were men of vision.
There were a few men of vision and their vision was corrupted by these others. Please understand that because I state something I know to be a fact does not mean that I am placing blame; when you place blame it denote the person did something wrong or their is guilt. This happened a few hundred years ago so there is nothing anybody can do now except learn from it. The only way to learn from something is to know about it. That is all I am saying.
15 US Presidents were slave owners. 8 President were slave owner while in office and one had slaves in the white house itself. The southern colonies would not sign the Declaration of Independence if the slaves were freed and so language was used that was vague.
If you look and compare the first Bill of Rights to the rights of the Greek states like Athens you will see striking similarities in who can vote.
The US Bill of Rights dictated that only men over the age of 25 that owned property, i.e. land, could cast a vote.
In Athens, only men over the age of 25 that have been through military service could vote.
This precluded women, slaves and all others from voting in the democracy.
Athens had a similar Republic but with differences. In the US it is a representational democracy in that you elect another to represent you.
In Athens, from what I remember, it was the first [x] number that showed up for the Quorum that cast the vote. The treasurer was also a wealthy citizen because he made up the difference if any money was missing.
I think that the US Bill of Right and the Declaration of Independence were based on the Ancient Greek model.
There is a mix of the Greek model and the Roman model. In both of the ancient models, aristocracy was considered the political elite, upward mobility as in reality nonexistent.
We have to consider that those were the best models available at the time and for the time the men who drafted the document were considered forward thinkers by some and traitors by others.
Where the forward thinking occurred was in leaving the document open for adaptation. While I doubt they expected the types of adaptation that have occurred, the way was left open for them.
We started with our own version of the political elite, evolved into a more democratic representative group, and have now evolved back to the version of political elite again, perhaps beyond the previous version.
What many don't seem to understand, perhaps because they do not take the time to delve into history, is that money equates to power, politics equates to social and economic standing, which naturally leads to more money and power.
This country can be fixed. We have thousands of years of history, hundreds of different types of models to look at and draw from.
This country can work if we remove the influence of all except the individual. The people are base of our country's strength, not corporations or any other created entity.
Never had any doubt...that is can be fixed. Problem is finding the right contractors to do the job then getting the 'board' to agree to hiring them.
Ping PandoraK - Basement fix
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ping-pandorak-basement-fix/
I can't reply to your post and started another thread to continue the discussion.
In my mind the first step is to make one change that makes all the other change possible. It is like a leaking basement. You plug the leak and pump our the water. Or you pump out the water for the rest of the life of the basement and deal with the mold, mildew and stagnant water.
Ok, let's go with your leaking basement analogy.
Pump out the water, plug the leak...seems like a quick fix eh? But why did that leak occur in the first place? Must be another problem that needs to be addressed or the plug won't hold or a new leak will occur...
Identify the problem, ascertain the means for repair, locate proper materials or contractor to effect repair.
Except we still need the 'board' (which could be us) to agree to hiring them.
Being an arrogant dork.
You are correct, there are a vast majority of people who are "arrogant and dorky".
Why try to educate people who are closed minded and not genuinely interested. You folk know all you want to know about Conservatives.
Another mind built to whether the information age with perpetual ignorance. I don't ask if I don't want to know.
Your response is of course the norm from those that know reality and the facts do not support their position.
Demonstrate that I am wrong and that you do have reasons based in facts that substantiate your position.
Yeah,yeah,you're really fucking smart and you really slapped me down.
Geez.....
Yeah, I don't expect any more from you than that. How many times do you have to be asked a question before you provide an answer? This is usually called ADHD. Have you always had ADHD or is it recent do to drug or alcohol use?
You Leftists always ask for information and answers,but when provided with facts that disprove your position you then recoil and strike at the source.
It's just your knee jerk indoctrination that keeps you from acknowledging anything beyond your talking points and propaganda.
Still waiting ADHD Man!
Read your reply to SteveKJR.
Sounds like you a had a rough go of it. And sounds like you have tremendous personal fortitude. A real survivor. I'm impressed. Thanks for sharing some of your story.
However now I don't know WTF you are. Leftist or Conservative?
What I wrote is true except it doesn't doesn't even come close to recounting one hundredth of what happened. People have it worse than I did.
I am conservative in some aspects such as self-responsibility which is not what I see when I see bank bailouts, like the savings and loans bailout with Clinton.
This is not a Republican or Democratic problem. It is a Judicial issue with the Courts giving rights to Corporations. My knowledge did not come from school, it came from self-education.
I program in php, c++, html, MySQL and so on. My siblings never had a chance at school or college so me and my wife made that available to them.
Our tenants went through some tough times and we helped stabilize their home for the kids involved.
I am liberal in that what two people, or more, do behind closed doors, as long as it isn't forced, is not my business.
We are all conservative and liberal.
I see corporations buying legislation and elections as harming our country. That is why I work with the OWS. I don't care about the changes people make later as long as the people have the power to do so.
Are there any posters that can disagree with the sentence above?
In the early 60's we had a word... "groupie" ... who was someone who would follow a leader... someone who would join a party or a gang... someone who was not Man enough to stand on their own.... the media hated it ... and changed the meaning to "followers of rock bands"... we all knew the truth... we stood on our own.. and called ourselves hippies...
unimportant, I see you as neither a conservative or a liberal ... I see you as Independent... as a hippie... and I too ... ;)
I prefer "informed individual". I like history and so have read Greek, Roman, Norse [Scandinavian], Pict, Celtic, Egyptian histories and mythologies. I also read the archaeological history of the Earth and learned about polar shifts, the oceans dying by being de-oxygenated which may have been the causal factor in one of the mass extinctions. This was caused by green house gasses.
The Earth also is not an circular orbit. Every 100K years the Earth transits from a circular orbit to a elliptical orbit. This has caused climate change. So when somebody says the current round is solely because of green house gasses I would check to see where we are in the transit between the Earth's orbit and then make the changes we need to continue to live on the Earth.
The information is out there for all these things. When I have questions I go look for answers.
Informed Individual.
I stand informed ;)
Information is key and I think that people have been misinformed intentionally by the media to divide Americans into as many small groups as possible.
You are male female, black, white, hispanic, asian, under 18, between the ages of 19 - 35, between the ages of ..... There are so many things used to separate people from people that we are unable to work together when, in the end, we all want the same thing.
Control over our country.
I agree ... straight out of herman goering's (and carl rove's) divide & conquer playbook
Thanks for the your clarification.
You sound like a very accomplished,generous and intelligent person.
I'am a Conservative period.
"I am liberal in that what two people, or more, do behind closed doors, as long as it isn't forced, is not my business."
That is just a universal value that spans ideology. I completely agree with that.
"I see corporations buying legislation and elections as harming our country"
I agree there is corruption,but disagree that bigger more intrusive Govt. regulation is the answer.
I don't believe in OWS because it is usurped by so many disparate interests ranging from anti-American radical Leftist agendas to Anarchist's.
I think this is showing itself in the violence and dis-coordination of many of the protests.
Plus I think OWS has broken the public's trust by camping out instead of staging protests. They've incurred signification negatives by choosing this strategy.
headlesscross, OWS is a movement.... that means it is something that moves... there is no objective end to it.... eventually after enough goals are reached and implemented .. it will no longer be that necessary and it will simply fade away....
OWS is a learning thing..... it is a constituency building thing .... something that continuously attracts support and grows....
OWS is a consensus building thing..... something that argues issues until all can agree on a best solution ...
OWS is a solidarity thing.... where all who participate know that we are all after the same thing ... truth ...
make sense ?
Here is where we might differ.
When I said what 2 or more people [....] that means that if somebody is gay or straight I don't care; it is simply not my business. I also do not believe in God and see the ten commandments as guidelines much the same way banks see the rules passed recently as guidelines.
I tried to refi our houses to take advantage of the lower interest rate and was told that I would have to have 80% LTV. Now we paid 20% down when we bought each of our homes and they were purchased a while back. Even still we don't have 80% LTV and Fannie May holds the paper on one house.
The city I live in also does rebates for insulation and such.
So we pay all o our bills on time, never left unpaid and never late. Yet we are not the type of people that US Bank, Sound Mortgage, Washington Federal and some others want to loan money to for a home refinance.
Since we have an oil boiler the City I live in doesn't do rebates unless your primary source of heating is electric. Ours is because the boiler uses 3-7 gallons a day of oil and so once the oil that was in the tank was used and we calculated the usage, we use electric heat now,
So the government lied when they said help was on the way for homeowners. I was informed that a portfolio lender [Washington Federal] was probably the best way to go since we didn't have the requisite 80% LTV but even if they would have did the loan, the interest they wanted was not much less than what we already pay.
IOW, this whole bail out of home owners is a poorly written joke. We can absorb this cost, but there are a lot of people that can't.
That is why I called this government "oh so fucked up". They are a bunch of liars and real pieces of shit with few exceptions.
I asked for help one time from my government when my parents were killed and I was still a minor. A minor cannot rent a home/room, cannot get a job with parental consent and so on. My government told me I was to close to the age of 18. I asked what I was supposed to do until I turned 18 and there response was raised hand and a shrug.
Ever since, I have done everything myself that I needed to be done.
You also might try checking out the story of the 15 year old girls deported to South America. As your trusted and unbiased news media says, it was the 15 year old girl's fault for lying to the police when she was arrested for shoplifting. You can concentrate on the fact she was arrested for shoplifting or consider the fact that children are not able to give their permission for anything. Or you can consider the local authorities did not do their job in protecting a 15 year old kid.
This is the way our country is. If you like it, sit back and enjoy. If this is not to your liking, do something about it.
you forgot to include..."anti-American radical Rightist agendas" also
I didn't forget it cause it doesn't exist.
in denial huh ? ... ;)
This is a variable $Corporations == "Non-Profit-Entities, For-Profit-Entities"
I am fighting a single fight. Remove corporations from the political processes. his will give you and all people the ability to make the changes you so desire. Without removing corporations from our political processes you will not be able to make the changes you want.
The OWS is a vehicle to create this change and it is being done with Congressman Ted Deutch and Senator Bernie Sanders. I submitted to both three Constitutional Amendments I wrote that identify and define "Natural Person" as an individual that is a citizen of the United States.
All other considerations, legalizing pot, making it legal for women to walk down the street topless, etc... not my concern.
I put forward a second idea of organizing the local occupy groups into a large OWS movement and each person carry a card. Instead of protesting, marching or otherwise demonstrating why not create and maintain picket lines.
This does not require a permit and removes the camps from the streets to a point, it won't be a complete removal. This also allows people to attend and join the picket lines without fear of abuse and arrest.
The Unions will back this as well as the public because it is not some disorganized groups it is a national movement, collective bargaining and completely legal and above board.
tell us about Conservative Ideology .... I'm really interested
I am not following you, we seem to gravitate to the same posts, weird...
No you're not.
hehe.. might be the first accurate thing you've said all day... ;)
"hehe" might be the only thing you've said that wasn't propagandized bullshit.
hehe... ALLRIGHT ... I knew an Independent and a Conservative could agree on something ;)
Love the use of the word "pontificate". You and I both know that most of the people that are in the OWS idiot group had to google that word! LOL
It's always a pleasure to read erudite, clear explanations of what a person believes. Why, though, would you assume someone would have to look up such a simple word as pontificate? And even if you do so assume, why do you feel compelled to say such a thing?
Certain types of individuals build their self-esteem off of the backs of another. These types of individuals speak to, speak at, speak over, speak down to others instead of speaking with others. Then they wonder why nobody enjoys talking with them....
If you are speaking with somebody why use words they may not have a full understanding of? That is rude and deceitful.
Funnier than shit and so true.