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Forum Post: Action Alert Join the 99% in a march & summit in support of undocumented immigrants

Posted 1 year ago on April 10, 2013, 1:40 p.m. EST by inclusionman (7064)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

http://www.votolatino.org/power-summit

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151588320370734&set=a.10151588320340734.1073741826.55549065733&type=1&theater

http://nbclatino.com/2013/04/09/washington-dc-braces-for-immigration-reform-rally/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/rally-for-citizenship-pla_n_3038405.html

Rosa Maria Soto, a mother of five, is one of the 11 million undocumented immigrants who would benefit from immigration reform.

She made the decision to come to the United States in 1999 shortly after a small store she owned in Mexico was robbed at gunpoint while she was working. She spent the next decade living in Arizona and hiding her immigration status because she feared she would get deported.

Soto said it was the passage of Arizona’s tough immigration law in 2010 that encouraged her to lose that fear and reveal she is undocumented. She began joining various organizations in fighting for immigrant rights. Now, she leads an organization called Parents and Youth in Action that advocates for immigration reform and immigrant rights.

“I can’t stay with my eyes closed knowing that there are many families that are suffering,” she told VOXXI about why she became involved. “I think it’s very unjust to see how children, instead of simply having to worry about going to school and playing, are worried about their parents being deported.”

Thousands to rally for immigration reform at the nation’s capital

On Wednesday, she will join thousands of people at a rally in Washington, D.C., to advocate for an immigration reform that includes a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants like her.

The rally, dubbed Rally for Citizenship, will begin at 3:30 p.m. on the West Lawn of the U.S. Capitol building. It’s expected to draw undocumented immigrants, faith leaders and community advocates from across the country. Several celebrities, including singer Olga Tanon, will also be present.

Soto said she and several other parents of Dreamers from Arizona will be there to tell their stories, hoping to encourage members of Congress to vote in favor of immigration reform this year.

“We know that we have to show our faces so that politicians know that there are a lot of people who want to see an immigration reform passed,” she told VOXXI.

Also joining her will be Alejandra Sanchez, who is a mother of five and up until recently was also afraid to reveal she is undocumented. Sanchez said it was seeing her daughter, a Dreamer, get arrested during a civil disobedience action last year that motivated her to come out as undocumented and advocate for immigration reform. The group of Dreamers were protesting Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio‘s tough immigration policies.

“That’s what opened my eyes and encouraged me to get involved,” she told VOXXI about the arrest of her daughter, Jaqueline. Sanchez is currently an active member of the Arizona Dream Guardians, which was formed last year by several parents of Dreamers to push for immigration reform.

Rally participants will ask Congress to deliver on immigration reform

Wednesday’s rally comes on the anniversary of the largest nationwide day of protest that occurred on April 10, 2006. That day, hundreds of thousands of people participated in marches and rallies throughout the country to advocate for immigration reform and protest legislation that would’ve raised penalties for undocumented immigrants.

This year’s rally is being put together by nearly 50 local and national organizations, including CASA de Maryland, United Farm Workers of America, Interfaith Immigration Coalition, Service Employees International Union (SEIU) and National Education Association.

Mate Vladar, a communications specialist at CASA de Maryland, said the rally is intended “to remind members of Congress that we are still here, waiting for the promises that were made to us about immigration reform.”

He added that it also intends “to show that there are many people who are our neighbors, our co-workers who are suffering” because of the nation’s broken immigration system.

Diana Tellefson Torres, vice president of the UFW, told VOXXI her organization will take about 100 farm workers, along with students and family members of undocumented immigrants, to participate in the rally. They plan to arrive at the nation’s capital on Sunday and participate in congressional visits in the two days leading up to the rally.

“We’re going to ensure that we visit as many congressional offices as possible so that Congress members and their staff can see that these are real people,” she told VOXXI. “They are people who have come here for a better life. They have families and are like every single one of us.”

85 Comments

85 Comments


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[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I cannot lie. I'm having a problem with immigration reform. It isn't that they aren't wonderful people. It isn't that these people do not work hard. I do not like the fact that they live in the shadows and are denied rights and encounter a level of bullying by people who exploit their status. These are the things that I am against. 100%.

Further, I am against taking it out on the group of people that hold the least amount of power.

They don't come in to the US and do the jobs that Americans don't want to do unless it's migratory work. Seasonal employment and constant moving means that you cannot raise a family. It's why most Americans don't do the work. So, that right there is a crap argument that I have never bought into.

Here is the problem: The influx of undocumented workers has forced out those that worked at the those jobs and are already American citizens. It deliberately keeps wages low.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I understand that immigrant workers today have permated all through our jobs market especially from what I can see into the home building trades.

This is not unlike past immigrations, as all these people want is a chance to better their lives. We have to deal with that, and the harm it causes the people who have been here for generations.

We must secure our borders in order for this problem to be alleviated, and go on from here.

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Well, that is why they come or agree to come. Hotels, restaurants, cleaning, landscaping, hospitals.
They aren't coming in from the bottom and now they want to wheel and deal some more visas. At the same time they are outsourcing.

I think securing borders misrepresents how this is being played out and failure to adequately address this leads to a bunch of racist backlashing.

You're old enough to remember but, I think our Texas guy would remember it. There were 80 Indians, from India, that were locked into a factory in Oklahoma that I think made pipes for the oil industry. This had to be a good 10=15 years ago. This crap goes down similar to this: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/05/immigration-law-indentured-servitude?page=1

We might want to rethink how and whom we are looking for at the borders.

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

The only answer that I can see to 'illegal immigration' is to secure our borders, stop out-sourcing our jobs, and give the illegals here a path to citizenship

Legal immigration for the express intent of keeping wages low and profits high is another story though,

As it is another example of corporate America conspiring with our Corrupt politicians

~Odin~

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

You never shy from honesty. And you speak with much knowledge. I know I still have messages to read in this forum. But we all see this steady drum beat from you. Honesty. Integrity. Honor.

Perhaps these are the qualities we want in our Professors, Journalist, and our Voices.

How can we bring back the Voices?

But surely Parents, Community Leaders, Activists, and even K-12 Teachers are all involved and learning the things that you have learned. Church leaders also can be leaders like you emulate.

You show simply what a single person can be if he/she cares for the community.

I am part of the Chorus that asks everyone to stay open minded. And you are part of the Chorus that asks us to look at what we are saying. In the end we have a dysfunctional population, but we must continue to look at principals for the right direction.

1) We can't really blame immigrants
2) We can blame National and State Leaders
3) There hasn't been a comprehensive Immigration Policy for 100 years at least. American Literature tells the history of pickers and others. Obviously Immigrants benefit Capitalists, Small Businesses, Households, and probably larger Corporations... especially today with commodity futures trading and vertical integration of Agricultural Businesses... today even chemicals are part of the agricultural Interests and Profit.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Thanks Middleaged, I do my best to be honest, sincere, and speak from the heart,

Most of what i have learned in life is from having a good up-bringing, and by being a keen observer of it, and hence speaking out about the incongruities that many people have in pursing their agendas whatever they may be

I temper all this by being humble, and realizing that those that preach morals often don't have them, so i look at my own life often with a bright light

One of the words you rarely hear on the forum is 'accountablitiy,' and in knowing the human condition is flawed, that is something that is a must going forward

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

I was reflecting today that state & federal budgets have to be rigid and have firm rules about who gets the benefits or receives funding.

When I look at Washington DC, I don't see integration and congruity with budget issues in regard to Immigrants... and of course with all the wasted money that get funneled to banks through fees and Interest Payments on government debt. (Consumer debt interest payments is also useless).

TPTB worked on one aspect in the Affordable Care Act... leaving plenty of room for increased profits to bankers and corporations.

Immigrants have to use our health care and education. We have lost some humanity in our treatment of people in the countries we bomb & the immigrants that come here.

Government Budget people have to ... well it all comes down to Congress I guess. How can all aspects of US Life be Increasing in costs, due to the payments of Interest, municipal debt, Pension and Future Obligations .... and Congress makes a half ass plan that doesn't address any of the Future Risks to our Institutions and Systems. We have Financial Schemes on top of Financial Schemes. It can't get any clearer than that.

As Budget Geniuses and Financial Geniuses .... Congress is Illiterate.

As Systems Geniuses ... Congress is filled with Idiots.

As Corrupt Patriarchs ... Congress is in a Class of It's Own.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

We have not only "lost some humanity in our treatment of the people we bomb...," rather we are well on the way of becoming 'morally bankrupt', and much like the countries that we detested in history for having done the same

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

It' horrible I know bw, but it is never too late

Just as people have the chance to redeem themselves, so do we as a country

It's clearly up to the people at this point though

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20850) 1 year ago

Thanks, Odin. Sometimes it feels like it's too late, but hope springs eternal.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Yes,.. I'm trying not to compare ourselves to Nazis today. And trying not to compare leaders in the EU to Nazis also. Greece Unemployment for January is up to 27.2% as per Businessinsider.com

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I hope some day soon that we can look back at this time as a period of 'National Madness'

To do so, we have to reclaim our humanity which goes beyond borders in realizing all human life is sacred

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I disagree. It is the same story but it is just an ugly aspect of it. I think that as a nation we have to deal with it because if we don't then we are giving permission for the extremists to deal with it.Then we wind up with detention facilities filled with the wrong group of people or a bunch of vigilante nutcases that want to murder or terrorize others.

Then you have a bunch of clown action.

-ZOMG they are going to the hospitals.

-Yeah, but they pay taxes knowing that they there is a damn good chance that they will never, ever be able to collect social security.

-ZOMG they have help to eat food.

-Yeah, because you refuse to pay them adequately and that is why they are here. So, you don't have to pay them adequately.

It all gets reduced to a bunch of shit. Nothing is solved and the tension is muted for a minute.

Since we are so focused at the bottom then we aren't paying attention to those at the top that are doing the instigating and profiting from it.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

The immigration issue has been used as a political toy to divide us even further, while at the same time it is used to keep wages down

But playing politics with this important issue is showing signs of ending as the repubs in particular realize that their hate-filled, divisional agenda is wearing thin as it will be more and more difficult to sell it as a our demographics change

While attending the work-shop at Columbia Uni last week a man said that people of color will out-number caucasians by the year 2050. A black woman politely interrupted him and let go with a string of celebratory metaphors....."the dawn is coming ....the sun is going to shine," etc. etc, then "halleujah!" It was really funny, and everyone was laughing. Anyway from this work-shop, and viewing the tremendous Frontline show the other night called Drug Wars, I do now understand that good people are working hard to solve both the immigration and incarceration problems, and i believe that to be something fairly new, at least to this magnitude.

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I agree that it has been used as a political divide and everything about this subject is exploited. This is the most frustrating part.

The Republicans have no intention of softening on this issue, really. There are multiple problems with E-Verify and when the solutions are proposed they don't want to see those initiated and to make sure that they aren't they do a big thing on rights. It just signals that they have no real intention of nailing those that do the hiring. It's ok to target the powerless but not ok to hold the business owners or corps accountable. It's repetitive.

Your workshop sounds interesting.

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

There is no doubt that repubs are not "softening on this issue" because they want to, but rather because they have to if they want to be a viable party in the 21st century

Then again, who knows what the hell is going on with them or the dems? They both suck.

I attended three classes at the community Beyond The Bars event at Columbia University, one in the morning, then a great lunch (free), then two in the afternoon, each one being an hour and a half. It was interesting to me that two of the panelists/speakers were Angela Davis who spoke Friday night and whom I missed, and Bernadine Dohrn who spoke at one of the work-shops I attended. Both those ladies were on the FBI's 10 most wanted list at one time. There was a host of other people from different organizations there too

http://criminaljusticecaucus.wordpress.com/conference/2013-2/

~Odin~

On a side note, could I say that I am Ivy League educated now?...lol

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

This is what it boils down to: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/31/immigration-reform-biometric-id_n_2594285.html

The date on that article is January of 2013. The problem is that this has been an ongoing issue for many years.

So, why is E-Verify not mandatory? Because then the Federal government would have to pay for it. This allows those candidates in the states to continue to run on cutting taxes. One way or the other you will pay for it.

Now, somewhere in the middle of this is that while this half ass approach isn't doing a damn thing, we have homeless people that cannot get IDs.

So, every so many years we have this lets get all of our undocumented workers legal. Frankly, these people have no rights and they are subjected to horrendous conditions and many live in constant fear. So, this group becomes legal (amnesty) and one would think that the business owners would be forced to pay them and there would be no competition. Unfortunately, that isn't how it works. A new group of people is, often, trafficked in and they do the same shit.

Why? Because it wasn't adequately addressed in the first place. ACLU and the biometrics industry and congress needs to sit down at the table and figure out a way to protect privacy and get the job done. Every problem with E-Verify needs to be solved. False positives, wait time and long before the biometrics industry gets paid anything.

Thus far, media talking points have divided us on one group steadfastly defending the business class even when they are down right wrong. This forces the other group to defend amnesty even when it is slicing their own throats.

You can tell who the real conservatives are and who is paid to post. If you sit down at the kitchen table and talk to conservatives you will find that most of them know that undocumented workers are paying taxes. You will find that many of them are in favor of nailing the outsourcing and the H1B visa scam. They will not come out with some crazy ass idiocy of you just didn't go to college for the right degree. They are in favor of nailing the businesses that hire undocumented workers. They don't want the jobs outsourced either.

Show these people a human interest story of a family being torn a part and you will get an eye-roll. Show me every undocumented worker is a terrorist and they get one back.

Where is the Republican-lite party? Allowing the suppression of wages because in one way or another they also profit from it.

On the other, it would have been interesting to listen to both speakers. I love people that take what they have learned and go on to create change.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

When you have tons of good people with most of them having little to no financial stake in solving some of the most pressing problems that we face as a society, it is very encouraging

At the symposium at Columbia Uni, in the morning, there were 2 (1 1/2 hour) workshops running simultaneously, so you had to chose which one you wanted to attend

Then in the two afternoon time blocks, there were 7-8 workshops running simultaneously, and once again, you had to choose from those 7-8 workshops

Each workshop had a moderator and 4-8 panelists, and a good per centage of the 50-100 in the audience i attended were students a Columbia Uni

Just in the workdhops I attended, panelists & mods were from such organizations as 1. Immigrant Defense Project, 2. Teachers/Unity Take Back the Bronx, 3. Children and Family Justice Center, 4. an educated young woman of Latino and N. Euroean heritage (who has been arrested several time in OWS protests) who calls herself a Freedom Fighter in Stop Stop and Frisk, 5. A very articulate woman who became homeless after her home was foreclosed on who is a campaign leader with Picture The Homeless, 6. A Deputy commissioner Probation Adult Operations, 7. The David Rothenburg Center For Public Policy (DRCPP), 8. Vermont Dept Of Corrections, 9. Colege and Community Fellowship, a program to help women who have been incacerated get a higher education, and finally 10.Dr Divine Pryor from the Center For NuLeadership on Urban Solutions based in Bed Stuy. This guy speaks all over the country and is considered an expert as he "has created new innovations in the field of social, economic, criminal, and human justice reform." When i asked him, he said that he knew of Occupy Town Square, and agreed to attend an event as a speaker if we had it in Brooklyn. There were more people on the panels, but you get the idea.

Nothing was held back including the fact that Columbia Uni in its expansion had displaced local residents, with the question, 'where do you think they went?'

Knowing of your love/interest of social issues GF, I did think of you and how much more you would have got from being there than me.

Odin~

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

This is what it boils down to: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/31/immigration-reform-biometric-id_n_2594285.html

The date on that article is January of 2013. The problem is that this has been an ongoing issue for many years.

So, why is E-Verify not mandatory? Because then the Federal government would have to pay for it. This allows those candidates in the states to continue to run on cutting taxes. One way or the other you will pay for it.

Now, somewhere in the middle of this is that while this half ass approach isn't doing a damn thing, we have homeless people that cannot get IDs.

So, every so many years we have this lets get all of our undocumented workers legal. Frankly, these people have no rights and they are subjected to horrendous conditions and many live in constant fear. So, this group becomes legal (amnesty) and one would think that the business owners would be forced to pay them and there would be no competition. Unfortunately, that isn't how it works. A new group of people is, often, trafficked in and they do the same shit.

Why? Because it wasn't adequately addressed in the first place. ACLU and the biometrics industry and congress needs to sit down at the table and figure out a way to protect privacy and get the job done. Every problem with E-Verify needs to be solved. False positives, wait time and long before the biometrics industry gets paid anything.

Thus far, media talking points have divided us on one group steadfastly defending the business class even when they are down right wrong. This forces the other group to defend amnesty even when it is slicing their own throats.

You can tell who the real conservatives are and who is paid to post. If you sit down at the kitchen table and talk to conservatives you will find that most of them know that undocumented workers are paying taxes. You will find that many of them are in favor of nailing the outsourcing and the H1B visa scam. They will not come out with some crazy ass idiocy of you just didn't go to college for the right degree. They are in favor of nailing the businesses that hire undocumented workers. They don't want the jobs outsourced either.

Show these people a human interest story of a family being torn a part and you will get an eye-roll. Show me every undocumented worker is a terrorist and they get one back.

Where is the Republican-lite party? Allowing the suppression of wages because in one way or another they also profit from it.

On the other, it would have been interesting to listen to both speakers. I love people that take what they have learned and go on to create change.

[-] 0 points by justiceforzim (-17) 1 year ago

Angela and Bernie, 2 failures from the seventies. Are we supposed to be impressed? I wouldn't cross the street to hear either one.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

It shows everyone can turn their lives around and do good things to make up for some of the bad they have done

It's called redemption

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

And a virtual protest in support.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151589804171153&set=a.159645436152.145735.101165966152&type=1&theater&notif_t=photo_comment

I like forcing corps to pay wages high enough so that citizens will want them

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Thanks

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

I agree that the poorest workers (when numerous) drive down wages. This is not a new phenomenon. It's the main reason NYC had irish draft riots against blacks during civil war. Irish were filling low end jobs, blacks would come and supplant them.

But this cannot be easily avoided. I think one solution is to insist corps pay higher wages, That can prevent undercutting by groups willing to take less, and encourage citizens to take the jobs in question.

[-] 1 points by Stormcrow2 (-184) 1 year ago

It's not the corporations that's the problems its the small contractors. The vast majority of illegal immigrants work in the construction trade.

That undercuts wages in this way - two contractors bid a job - one contractor is paying a decent wage, while the other contractor is paying illegal immigrants a lower wage under the table with no taxes being taken out - cash -

The job will to the contractor with the lowest bid - whom do you think will get the job - the contractor with the illegal workers.

I have seen it time and time again where contractors will hire illegals to build houses, install plumbing, A/C systems - the list goes on and on.

That's where the problem is when it comes to wages being supressed.

And just how can you insist that they pay higher wages when you don't know if the people working for them is illegal or not?

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago
[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Construction is a big draw for immigrant labor, ut not the largest, In any event you are right those businesses exploiting immigrants with low wages must be weeded out.

How? with stings, good policework. Obviously. You can't figure that out.?

[-] 2 points by Stormcrow2 (-184) 1 year ago

We already have e-verify for businesses to check credentials of employees - but they don't or won't. Besides the ACLU doesn't want anyone to be checked.

Sting operations have been set up but it's a federal issue - states get their hands slapped when they try to do it so they stand down..

So can't solve the problem that way can we? Any other suggestions?

[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

You did not establish that we cannot use good police work, sting operations.

As we do!! We'll just have to expand it. Fed issue? Use feds. ACLU doesn't want? So? We do now,we will continue, we must expand.

Anything else?

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Well, that was a fear held by some of the Irish that was intentionally fanned but it doesn't adequately explain why it would have been taken out on an existing population. In fact, it was the Irish that wanted the jobs that the blacks had.

But, the corporations are not paying higher wages. They have not done it in the past 30 years and I don't see that move happening now. There comes a point in time where we have to deal with these issues. One way is to penalize the people hiring like ..............criminal charges and prison time, loss of business, confiscation of property.

Biometric scanning IDs?

This has pushed out those less skilled at the bottom. So, they have no work because this group of people can be paid less at the same time that services were cut. We have how many homeless?

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

I agree the fear of job loss by the Irish was fanned, but in NYC the Irish immigrant population was vastly greater than African Americans so Africans did not have many jobs that anyone wanted.

I think also a big reason that the Irish targeted Africans for 3 days of the worst rioting in NYC was because the Irish didn't like the unfair draft (that allowed the 1% buy replacement people to serve), didn't want to fight in war to 'free the African slaves' only to have them come up north the compete with the low wage irish.

Corps paying higher wages is NOT happening, I agree. To get them to do so would be close to impossible. However I still believe strongly it is a critical effort because the low wages currently being paid represents exploitation of immigrants, higher wages will encourage citizens to take many of the jobs immigrants take, & the higher wages will help all families of low wage workers (as well as help the economy by increasing consumer spending, & increasing revenue to govt.

And so I agree one way to achieve this is by penalizing business who hire/exploit undocumented workers, Probably biggest reason (jobs) immigrants come illegally and always the last effort since govt is just the puppet of corps. I support your suggestion of prison, business loss/property.

The one irony I will highlight is that once again the lowest wage citizens/workers who I agree are 'pushed out' are African Americans now as it was in NYC (& other cities) during the civil war period.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

The primary reason of the draft riots was that the rich could buy their way out. I agree that the Irish was the greater population by the time it occurred. Many of the Irish didn't have work, lived in hovels and it was easy pitting. It wasn't at all decided if NY was going to go with the Union as there were those who profited greatly from slavery. There were black business owners http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html

Ya know, I always found this event interesting and repulsive at the same time.

Back in 2008, they had corporations that would post they were looking for jobs but they had no intention of hiring Americans. While I agree with most that you have said, I don't think that this is a question of Americans applying for the jobs. It's the corporations and businesses refusing to hire them to begin with. Florida has been dealing with this for well over 20 years. That is who works in hotels, kitchens etc. And it is very rare that you see the bad guys get nailed.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

I agree that corps/businesses are mostly responsible for this immigration problem.

I agree with your recommendations on dealing with them, as I've said. I add: that forcing a high wage will make hiring immigrants less attractive, better for working people, and for the economy.

On NY: I agree the unfair draft was the primary reason for the riots. I also know that the target was black people, untold numbers (scores) were hunted, and brutally killed.

NY had deep financial interests in the South, including slavery, our newspapers were clearly democratic and southern sympathizers but there was really never any chance we would secede, as was discussed.

And no other state sent more soldiers to defeat the traitorous south, and no other ethnic group more than the Irish.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

??????

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Too much?

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

lol

No, we are actually discussing the broader themes. It would be rather interesting to carry on a fuller discussion of it. In a different forum perhaps. As it stands, it isn't going anywhere.

I have a book that deals specifically with the draft riots and I just recently picked up a book at a used bookstore that is a history of riots in NYC. It includes riots that I have never heard of like the Doctor's Riots started because a doctor showed a kid his dead mother's arm. , One would like to say, "Naw, can't happen." The reality is that there there were Jerry Springer folk hundreds of years before Jerry Springer.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Oh yes. And the Astor opera house riot against the upper class! That was a good one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astor_Place_Riot

We've been an unruly bunch.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I just read about that one. But, from what I read neither one of those actors was all that and a bag of chips. I think they both were playing Macbeth at the same time.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

ok, It was probably less about the actual actors and more about wealth inequality.

Deja vu.

Hey I just saw a Beetle convertable commercial and i could have sworn the background music was the troll la la song your were using a while back.

Seen it? Or am I crazy?

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Well, that's what it became but the instigators and how people are manipulated to engage that are fascinating.

Haven't seen it.

[-] 0 points by eviltrillionaire (-146) 1 year ago

Calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

A drug dealer does nothing that a pharmacist does,so no that is ridiculous. But calling someone a drug dealing is appropriate after they have been found guilty in court.

Americans believe in innocent until proven guilty, Wasn't that on the citizen test when you took it, or are you undocumented.

[-] -1 points by justiceforzim (-17) 1 year ago

GOOD ONE!!!!!!!! Triple twinkle if I could.

[-] 0 points by Jamblack21 (-5) 1 year ago

I really do feel bad for these people but why should anyone be allowed to come here illegally and still get the parks of a citizen? It's illegal to live undocumented in Mexico and everywhere else so why should people just he allowed to come in whenever they want. Many immigrants are kind and looking for work but their are also the bad ones. Some would kill to gett in the US. I know a border Partol agent who can attest to that. They aren't all innocent and simply looking for work.

[-] -1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Vast majority are decent hard working law abiding citizens. We send the criminals back.

This would not be a problem if we didn't have anti brown people racist quotas on immigration.

Open the border, there's plenty to go around

[-] -1 points by Jamblack21 (-5) 1 year ago

There not citizens if they just hop a fence and go start working in a field somewhere. They don't deserve to be here illegally.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2692) 1 year ago

back home they earn $5 to $10 a day, when employed, and it is hard to keep the family values going, on 5 to ten bucks a day. They live on that if they have a house free and clear. however in a squatter's shack, needing to bring in their bottled water, and maybe no refrigerator, that can eat the budget quickly.

we need workers to pick apples, and other foods here, and many Americans don't want to do agricultural work here, for whatever reason, it is hard work, I know, so they have an incentive to come, and this has been going on for years.

If you are wanting to feed your kids and to keep family together, you would cross a border too, if that was what you needed to do.

Everyone wants to feed their kids, have a decent life.

I think they are scapegoated when low wages are blamed because undocumented will accept that. Wages have decreased for 40 years for the bottom 90 percent here. That's not all from Mexican workers. Besides, who would do the maid work, and work in the fields, and cook cultural foods.

Charge them a fee to be a citizen, it's near a thousand now. have them enrolled in English class, and start paying taxes.

For any one after 2013, raise citizenship fee to $4000, and other rules, need to be in line.

[-] -1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

They would be citizens if we didn't have anti brown people racist quotas on immigration.

Open the border, there's plenty to go around

[-] 0 points by Jamblack21 (-5) 1 year ago

A country can only handle so much ILLEGAL immigration. There's a ton of illegals here already and they don't pay taxes.

[-] -1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

The vast majority of undocumented immedgrants absolutely pay taxes. And will pay more when we correct their status.

Our country can handle as many as will come. Don't be afraid.

[-] 1 points by Jamblack21 (-5) 1 year ago

I'm not afraid of anything. That's not true that the majority of them pay taxes. I don't want people to illegally be here. They aren't all innocent immigrants.

[-] -1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

The criminals are sent back (in the largest numbers in history lately).

And it is of course true that they pay taxes. Sales tax, gas tax, payroll incometax & SS fica tax (invalid ss # so they can't claim benefits but they absolutely pay taxes.)

They can't file taxes so they don't get the refund they would likely get so they probably therefore pay MORE taxes than a comparable citizen claiming their refund.

See how that works.

[-] 0 points by Jamblack21 (-5) 1 year ago

D you think they should be ale to vote, get a drivers license or get welfare if they are illegal in the US?

[-] -1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Not before their status is corrected of course.

[-] -2 points by justiceforzim (-17) 1 year ago

Sure. Just ask the American Indians. They thought the same thing, asshole and now you want us to feel sorry for them, That does not compute, but not much you say does.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

American Indians never said anything of the kind. And the South Americans we are trying to keep out are the descendents of indigenous peoples.

They ain't crossing the border, the border crossed them.

All native peoples of the Americas should have a right to live in this land of opportunity that we slaughtered Natives to secures.

[-] -2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Oh hi DM, VQ, WS, I40, RepubsRGreat.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Please stop harassing me.

This post is about the immigration rally. Put aside the off topic childishness, and engineer comment on that.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Stop pretending to know what All American indians were saying way before you were born, and stop pretending to be a spokeswoman for anyone that was born before your time.

You have no idea what was going on then, just as you have no idea what is happening now in their lives, you pompous pretentious pile of shit.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

I am not pretending anything. I am challenging the ridiculous contention by JFZ that American indians thought/said there was plenty enough for anyone.

So he is pretending to know & speak for long dead people, But you won't challenge his anti immigrants position because YOU are anti immigrant?

[-] -1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I'm challenging you, DM, VQ, I40, WS, RepubsRgreat, to demonstrate any kind of former learning/experience/training/knowledge, that gives you the right to even contemplate lecturing people about indigenous Americans.

What do you have, hombre?

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Guys, guys PLEASE, LOL !!! Let's all get back to basics bros {& sisters!} :

pax, amor et lux ? ....

[-] 4 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

An excellent detailed (but compact) overview of the struggle of working class people, and a concise discussion on what faces occupy and all like minded groups.

Thx

[-] -2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

It's my Bullshit!~O~meter again, Shadz.

This dork keeps pushing it into the red zone.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Mate, you do get that you both have far much more in common than 'divides' you, right ?! It's more a question of 'personality' than 'politics' from my pov !! ~{:-p) Also, please (both of you) later consider :

ad iudicium ...

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Well now, You can compare our respective responses to this graphic that you sent to both of us, and judge us that way.

I'm cool with that.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Thank you Shadz!!! I am so sick of this divissiveness when our real enemies are such a big target that to miss them is like missing the broad side of a barn with a sawed-off shotgun at ten paces!

WTF??????

[-] -2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Anyone who needs a dozen aliases to manufacture consent is beyond sanity in my book, Shadz. You can have the dickwad. And he's a shill for the dems.

Over it.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

The 'truth' is you can't get away from your obsession with engineering false, childish, personal attacks to silence my pro occupy opinion.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

I express my opinion freely, rightfully, and confidently. You have not. You only, only, only engage in a false, childish, personal attack on me because you don't agree with my opinion.

Engineer some decency for yourself.

[-] -1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

What a contrived crock of shite.

You wouldn't know what the truth was if you tripped over it.

You need a dozen aliases to boost your own ego here, dickwad.

A laugh a minute is what you are here. Keep us amused, idiot.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

I have learned about indigenous peoples history throughout my life. As such I have formed opinions and obviously have every right to offer my opinion/position.

Be clear, I do not have to explain myself to you. And you haven't engineered an opinion regarding the indigenous issues on topic, you simply personally attack me dishonestly.

You are a 1 trick pony at the end of his long useless career.

[-] -3 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

What have you learned, VQ/I40/DM/WS/RepubsRGreat?

You've "formed opinions" about what exactly?

The thread is about undocumented immigrants.

Do you consider yourself to be one? Or the indigenous inhabitants of America to be them?

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

I am entitled to my opinion as much as anyone else. You've engineered harassment against me because you don't like my pro immigrant position.

I can't demonstrate any provable experience, why should I? You can't. We will express our opinions/positions back up with facts where possible and hopefully pursued others (in this case) to support our immigrants brothers and sisters.

Or like you some of us will just personally attack with unfounded, childish lies,and trolling harassment, because you want to silence my pro immigrant position.

Are you anti immigrant like you are homophobic as well.?

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Re. OWS, here's what it's all about :

fiat lux, fiat pax et fiat justitia ? ...

[-] -2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

You can attempt to label me, DM, VQ, I40, WS, RepubsRgreat, but until you come clean about your multiple personality disorder, your case is pretty shaky old mate/s.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

LOL !!! Boy did I know getting involved here was gonna lead to earache !! I have the pair of you now - one in each ear, lol and grrrr !! ''Manufacturing Consent" & ''Engineering Dissent" - never the twain shall meet apparently but both have form and function here and though in truth I'd happily have a beer, a veggie burger and a chin wag with you both - but perhaps not at the same time, lol !

pax ...

[-] -1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I'll buy the first round of Bass & meat pies shadz, but only four, none for I40, Rtheproblem, DM or WS as my budget won't allow it..lol

~Odin~

[-] -1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

There's only one of me, Shadz.

You'd need a table of ten to take this dork out for a coffee and cake.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

I have no disorder. You engineering of this knew troll, harassing, personal attack is childish and unfounded.

I use 1 ID. I disseminate important, current, news and action items in regards to issues occupy supports.

You engage in off topic, childish, dishonest, personal attacks.

Please stop.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

The question was about indigenous Americans, VQ.

What gives you the right to think you are qualified to discuss indigenous American habits and customs.?