Forum Post: Abolish Student Debt, Demand Free Education!!!
Posted 11 years ago on Feb. 23, 2013, 11:33 a.m. EST by repubsRtheprob
(1209)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
It is a crime that we burden our children with overwhelming debt at the start of their lives just to enrich the money changers/loan sharks banksters.
College costs are obscene, they can be reduced and the resulting lower cost should be paid for by a combination of business tax, students commitment to work in low income communities, and expanded govt Pell grants.
College can be shorter as well, BA can be 3 years by improving high school education. Graduate degrees can be shortened as well.
Some 1st steps.
http://signon.org/sign/asa-please-remove-me?mailing_id=9295&source=s.em.cr&r_by=1342324
Add your thoughts/actions/info.
Thanks
A Statement From The Occupy Student Debt Campaign
Everybody is now talking about the student debt crisis, but nothing is being done about it. Thanks in large part to the great public amplifier of the Occupy movement, this year’s presidential contenders have been forced to embrace student loan reform as a talking point in their respective campaigns. But the debt relief being pushed by the Obama administration is a token gesture, aimed at getting some traction on the youth vote–especially the more disillusioned or alienated student constituencies. Recent bills introduced in Congress–Student Loan Forgiveness Act (H.R. 4170) and the Private Student Bankruptcy Fairness Act (H.R. 2028)–have zero chance of passing in anything like their current form. Practically speaking, no reform program of any substance is on the legislative horizon, least of all one that would regulate the predatory lending practices of Wall Street banks.
The truth is that student debt relief is too important to be left to elected officials. They are chronically dependent on the financial backing of the lending industry, and are structurally incapable of addressing this crisis, let alone resolving it. As a result, reform initiatives such as Student Loan Justice and Forgive Student Debt (to Stimulate the Economy) that have been aimed at petitioning lawmakers have very little to show for all their hard effort. The recent federal modifications in payment schedules are micro-cosmetic compared to the sea-change that is required to free debtors of their intolerable burdens and rescue higher education from its increasing use as a profit engine for financiers, asset speculators, and real estate developers. The pathway to this outcome does not lie in futile pleas for economic reform, but through a political movement, driven by self-empowerment and direct action on the part of debtors.
The Occupy Student Debt Campaign was launched at Zuccotti Park in November 2011 with the goal of building a student debt abolition movement. Our campaign is based on principles for which we believe there is widespread support
1) Free public education, through federal coverage of tuition fees.
2) Zero-interest student loans, so that no one can profit from them.
3) Fiscal transparency at all universities, public as well as private.
4) The elimination of current student debt, through a single act of relief.
These are interlocking principles, and should not stand on their own. Imagine a world in which lawmakers were to respond positively to the current calls for debt “forgiveness” (an unfortunate term that implies the debtor has sinned). Such a measure would offer much-needed relief, but it would still disadvantage future debtors if it were not complemented by remedies that brought to an end the practice of compelling students to privately fund higher education by going into debt bondage. So, too, a singular focus on reducing interest rates (even to zero) is more likely to encourage colleges to increase their fees than to open up equitable access to education.
In light of Wall Street’s stranglehold on Congress, the Occupy Student Debt Campaign holds that alternative strategies are necessary to promote and publicize our principles. That is why it endorses the practice of debt refusal as a legitimate response to the predicament of individuals and communities targeted by predatory lenders, or by state officials seeking to pass on the costs of the financial crisis in the guise of austerity measures. Greece, Chile, England, Italy, Spain, and Quebec have all seen popular revolts against government efforts to preserve, and extend, the power of financial elites to discipline selected populations. With each new outbreak of people’s voices, the imposition of debt is publicly exposed, not simply as a means of redistributing wealth upwards, but also as an instrument of social control. Under current U.S. laws, defaulting on a student debt carries serious penalties. These laws are unjust, but they are a sharp deterrent to individuals who might otherwise consider refusing their debts. In response, our campaign advocates collective action. Even in its absence, the default rates are accelerating, with alarming consequences. Our Pledge of Refusal is framed as a debt strike threat (debtors pledge to withhold payments once a million others have signed). We welcome, and will support, other forms of debt refusal/strike that are consistent with the aim of building a broad political movement.
The culture of honoring all debts, even those unjustly incurred, is not universally respected, least of all on Wall Street. Loans and credit are new forms of money created from nothing for the ultimate benefit of the lender; they are little more than numbers on a computer screen. Bankers know this, and so they treat their own debts accordingly, as matters to be renegotiated, restructured, or written off. Only the little people are supposed to pay in full. As this double standard becomes more and more apparent, debt refusal will emerge as the most rational response to an immoral predicament.
The struggle over wages was a defining feature of the industrial era. We believe that the struggle over debt will play a similar role in our own times. Not because wage-conflict is over (it never will be), but because debts, for most people, are the wages of the future.
Join Us! The Occupy Student Debt Campaign
Sign the student debt pledge of refusal here.
Or, sign the faculty pledge or the non-debtors’ pledge of support.
Web: www.occupystudentdebtcampaign.org
Twitter: @StdntDebtPledge
Facebook: OccupyStudentDebtCampaign
Demand free everything! Why stop with student debt? Rise up and demand that everything is given to us. Damn reality. It's full scream ahead!
TheRoot
Of All Evil???
Would seem to be Greed.
Is that what got-ch-ya?
Occupy DOE
http://october2011.org/blogs/kevin-zeese/occupy-doe-push-democratic-not-corporate-education-reform
Looks like "you" rooted to something foul/toxic.
The root of all evil seems to you to be greed, but it isn't.
I'm ok with starting with the critical issue of investing in societies future by ensuring college is accessible to all.
College should be paid by taxpayers (wealthy individuals, & corps).
Nobody is demanding free everything. Thats you trying to ridicule these important efforts.
No one is moral who chooses to start and carry out forceful action against another. I showed up 17 months ago on Wall Street to protest those that foisted their monetary scheme on us not only in the US but the world over. Those types will compromise with you on free college education, health care, housing or anything else you'd like to start with because they know that these require their scheme in order to happen. In clamoring to have anything for "free”, you play into their scheme. Instead of accepting their premise that it is right to force others, why aren’t you rejecting the idea?
I reject the idea!
Said with the same inflection of Stephen's in the movie, Braveheart, "Excellent!".
I don't know the reference so I don't know what you mean.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs8QKXtCN9w
I'm sorry I can't watch clever youtube clips.
If you can't otherwise verbalize your meaning you can refrain from responding.
Thx
Np. I simply mean that it is excellent that you reject the idea of initiated physical force.
I do of course reject that, but can't figure out where I said that.
Six clicks up from here is where you said it.
Ahhh the idea of forcing others into the monetary scheme. Yes I got it now. Thanks.
Get involved, contribute ideas
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-21/u-s-consumer-bureau-seeking-comments-on-student-debt-policies.html
Cons & progr together!?!?
http://internationalpoliticalforum.com/campus-conservatives-and-progressives-unite-to-raise-awareness-about-student-debt-crisis/
We can learn from them.
Yes execs at colleges MUST take a paycut.
http://occupycunynews.org/2012/06/22/rallymarch-against-executive-pay-raises-at-mondays-board-meeting/
Sorry. Do it for the kids!
A call to action in support of education reform
http://www.nycga.net/events/nationwide-defend-education-day/
Scholarships can help
http://interoccupy.net/blog/davis-putter-scholarship-available-for-student-activists-apply-now/?doing_wp_cron=1361637488.0216140747070312500000
Canadians know how to approach this self destructive problem
http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/news/International%20News/2013/02/04/5388.html
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The library is already free...........
Get corp 1% out of education control.
http://truth-out.org/news/item/14930-why-are-walmart-billionaires-bankrolling-phony-school-reform-in-la
just take their money, we can decide how to spend it.
Take money out of education completely. What does it matter where the money comes from?
Education costs money. I say pay for education with corp taxes, and provide education at no cost to the people.
Libraries cost money.
Let's raise taxes on the rich & big corps before we cut tuition assistance for veterans
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/08/1192641/-Republicans-whine-about-loss-of-White-House-tour-perk-as-Army-suspends-tuition-assistance-program
Lets get rid of taxes for everyone. No taxes are better than low taxes.
Raise taxes on the rich (they took all our money) low taxes on the rest of us.
Why have taxes at all though? Why not at the least make taxes voluntary?
To reply back to the idea of being free no matter what, I have to agree with that sentiment. Unless I'm in a prison busting my ass for three meals and a cot, I'm free. Although, if i wasn't out here busting my ass for three meals and a cot, I'd have liberty. peace!
What does being in prison or not, have to do with my state of freedom?
I'm free, no matter what; jail or no jail.
Food has little to do with freedom.
That's a pretty stupid question. How are we gonna keep gramma from destitution, dog food, and early death. Gotta have Social Security tax.
Sorry.
There wasnt social security before 1933...............
And the elderly were left in the street to die because we became a society where we believe we should only care for ourselves.
"Gee they should have saved for their old age, it's their own fault" "Oh well, Muffy get the Rolls"
There were mass amounts of elderly dying in the streets before 1933?
I clearly skipped over that part of american history......
.
Most were sent to the nearest poor farm. Poor farms were common before social security.
Like concentration camps?
But clearly you are smart enough to know that SOMETHING had to convince our selfish, "your on your own" culture to submit to a program to help the elderly poor.
We lost our respect for the elderly, for the value, experience, intelligence, they offer. We became too comfortable dismissing any adversity as deserved, self imposed, justice.
And so yeah the elderly were dying alone, destitute, eating dog food.
Social security represents the better angels of our nature, illustrates the compassion of the society as a whole. It shows we care enough to prevent that horrible existence.
We need it. Our elderly deserve a decent respectful life (and death).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-bernie-sanders/as-social-security-turns_b_1776451.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0CEFDE1E38F930A15752C0A9639C8B63
http://www.wttw.com/main.taf?p=46,7,4,2
I found these informative articles easily so you shouldn't have to make much of an effort to be be educated. No reason for you to "skip over this part of US history". Do a search if you care.
Everyone deserves to live freely. Not just the elderly.
It is not characteristic of a "free" society to throw dissenters and protesters to the curb for disagreeing with the status quo.
I want taxes to be voluntary. I want charity to be anoymous and voluntary.
Haven't seen the common law republic post.
Got a link?
Of course we all deserve living freely. who said otherwise.?
Taxes voluntary? LOL thats good, nobody would pay. How would we defend the nation,?
How would we accomplish what you suggest.
Defend our nation? I want the military to abolished and replaced with 300 million individuals who practice non-violent disobidience in thier own way.
I also want a Common Law Republic that recognizes each person's individual soveriegnty. Did you read my post "The Common Law Republic"?
Demand an end to the job killing cuts in sequester
just repeal it!
http://signon.org/sign/congress-vote-for-the?mailing_id=9811&source=s.em.cr&r_by=1342324
Job killing? Why do I care whether people are employed or not? Especially for the military.
Because resolving this worst unemployment crises in 70 years will benefit the entire American population. Even you and any selfish, inconsiderate 'you're on your own' ideologues.
A rising tide lifts all boats and all that good stuff.
Voluntary cooperation among individuals is not the same as "you're on your own"
PS. High (or ideally complete) unemployment for the military would be a good thing.
"voluntary cooperation' is meaningless.
We are stronger when we help each other.
I agree with the latter statement, but it still must be volutary. It isnt 'help' if it is forced.
it don't work if we ALL ain't helpin. We're all in this together. And what do we do with the selfish piece of shit who doesn't wanna help his fellow citizens.?
what do you want to do with the 'selfish piece of shit'?
I want to allow the 'shit' to decide for itself.
So he benefits from the society we created by helping each other and doesn't have to help?
That hardly seems fair. And if we allow him to decide not to help I say we impose a ramification that he must be aware of before he decides to remain on his couch while the rest of us work for the betterment of society.
Why the fuck won't he help?
"forced" cooperation hardly seems fair.
dissent is far fairer.......
No forcing. but ramifications. Thats fair.
And if we allow him to decide not to help I say we impose a ramification that he must be aware of before he decides to remain on his couch while the rest of us work for the betterment of society.
Why the fuck won't he help?
Threats, you mean?
If you dont cooperate, we are going to punish you for not cooperating. That sounds 'forced' to me.......
He wont help because you want to force him to conform to your ideals about how society and the world should operate.
Conformity is the last refuge of the unimaginative. -Oscar Wilde
Ok. I'll search for your thread.
Thx
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And what could you say about student debt and the broken system that burdens our young people with indentured servitude to the bankster 1% oligarchs.?
Dont pay your loans back. or dont get loan in the first place and go to the library.
Oh. If you don't have to convince anyone but yourself to "just do it" then I suppose your plan/constitution is an unqualified success.
I'm sure you very pleased at your success in persuading yourself to support your proposal.
It absolutely is......I wrote it, you read it. That is far better than what most people have accomplished.
The only person I am required to convince before going forward is myself. Everyone else is extra.
You are free to attempt to convince people to "just do it" with flippant, sarcasm, and people (most, I would think) will dismiss you and your constitution.
It ain't about losing me. It's about using effective interaction techniques.
You are free to be flippant and sarcastic, I'm free to tell you it is so, and we are all free to ignore you and your childish obnoxiousness.
The only person I need to convince is myself. You are turned off because of the form my language takes; well that is your problem, not mine.
I ain't askin your "help" cause I don't like your fippant sarcastic strategy of informing people of your constitution and "just doing it".
You know the best way to "just do it".
Good luck. I think all you are "just doing" is alienating people but hey what do I know.
Freedom is ability to tell people what they don't want to hear.
If don't want to hear, the don't listen.
There are 7 billion humans on earth, losing you isn't that bad.
Excellent, good for you. You got a response. You're well on your way to "just doing it".
I suppose it doesn't matter if the people you talk to think you are flippant, & sarcastic doesn't matter. Their support is less important than that they respond.
You are very wise.
I want others to decide for themselves. Like the song says "I'll lend you my eyes so you can see what I see, but your soul you must keep totally free."
Sarcasm is a tool of language. I can't help if you don't like it.
I suppose you could be picking your nose, the nature of anonymous text based forums does not allow for varification of that.
You said "just do it" not me. I'm asking simply how will this be accomplished.
Your sarcastic, flippant responses are an interesting strategy choice.
Good luck to you, in all your good efforts.
The goal of a civil resister is to evoke a response. As long as I hear back, I'm doing good. :)
"just do it"? Didja get that from a sneaker commercial?
Sounds easy. Why haven't you just done it then.?
What do you think Im doing here on this website right now? Picking my nose?
As I already said I did read it. I saw nothing about HOW we get there.
What's the plan to get there?
It's a declaration of independence. You just DO it.
I agree we should not go backwards. And if you say CLR is direct democracy who am I to argue.
What is the plan to get their.?
Did you read it?
CLR may or may not be a system of directly decided laws. I would yield to your statement on whether it is or not.
In any event I believe that ideal system is far off and my job today is to prepare that evolution, correct the worst of this system, and attempt to create change that benefits the 99%.
I think the CLR constitution I have written makes that clear.
The CLR is not utopia, but that doesnt mean we have to go backward.
No the system we have has profound serious flaws and indeed is NOT the "end of the road". What is, I cannot say, but that I believe it will be a system of directly decided legislation by ALL citizens (not corps). The details are beyond me.
Of course I don't expect to witness that ideal end of the road.
For me I'm afraid is left the work of laying the groundwork to get there. To somehow undo the worst parts of our current corrupt system and hopefully create some change that will benefit the 99%.
"a system of directly decided legislation by ALL citizens"
is that not what the CLR is? Maybe all 'willing' citizens is a better way to put it, but isnt the the same?
Just read it. A bit legalistic, and bureacratic huh?
Good luck to you boss.
It's a constitution. It is a proposal for a better system of government that is currently in place.
Is the system we have now, really the end of the road?
I don't think I've assumed what you believe.
Where can I find your proposal.?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-common-law-republic/
type in "Common Law Republic" into the search bar on the upper right hand side of this page. :)
We all live in, and enjoy the fruits of the great American society. That costs something and we all most engage, contribute, help each other or our great society will come apart.
We call it "the UNITED" States for a reason.
We ain't the "You're on your own" States. LOL
If we don't follow the laws of society there are repercussions, evade taxes- jail, steal-jail.
Sorry, if your are too selfish, greedy, inconsiderate to be united in this "great experiment" that is America, then your action MUST have repercussions. But no you won't be forced.
As long as you are responsible for the ramifications.
THAT is fair.
Im a defiant protester that wants to amend the constitution and establish a new form of freer government.
There is obviously something that I dont like about the "United" states of america. If exerting my freedom to have an opinion and then to tell others about my opinion, is selfish, greedy or inconsiderate, then why would I not want to change something about the USA as it is today?
Freedom is better than fairness.
Good luck. With your efforts to create the "Isolated state of HCabret"
LOL
Solitude is better than being alone in a room full of people.
I proposed the Common Law Republic. Before you go assuming what I do and do not want, please read my proposal.
petitions, protests work!! Tuition freeze!!!
http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?ID=58209
Now we must build on this victory and force a tuition cut!!
We MUST take this seriously. Agitate for our leaders to impose bank abolishment of student debt for the working class.
http://news.yahoo.com/more-americans-struggle-repay-student-213833681.html
That would be the best economic stimulus.
Who cares about the Economy? Doing things in the name of money is tyranny, especially when imposed on others.
If you don't want debt, don't pay your loan back.
Ok. Sounds like a plan. I think occupy also has good ideas on debt.
Check it out let me know what you think?
http://strikedebt.org/
"Join us as we imagine and create a new world based on the common good"
It lost me right there.... ^
Why? you don't support the common good? Isn't that why we formed the US?
The us is extremely antiquated. What worked in 18th century doesn't necessarily work in the 21st.
The constitution is not a holy document. It says "general welfare" anyway, not "common" or "greater" good.
Do what is right for yourself. Buddha said having compassion for yourself is the same as having it for all beings.
We MUST work towards improving the 'general welfare' of all people.
We all do better, when we all do better. That is true in any century.
"general welfare" has nothing to with money, classes, or economic philosophy.
The gracchus were tyrants as much as caesar was.
What's a "gracchus"?
I meant "gracchi". They were two brother who were tribune of the plebs in rome.
Cool.
Speaking of education.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/08/1192641/-Republicans-whine-about-loss-of-White-House-tour-perk-as-Army-suspends-tuition-assistance-program
Let's raise taxes on therich before we cut tuition assistance.
or we could just make college free........
Nothing is free. it should not cost the students anything, the cost should be spread out among the rich (Who have all the money) and business who need & benefit from an educated population.
oh right. "NOTHING is free" said the guy who wants money, food and security for free.
Freedom is free.........
Freedom is NOT free!! the blood of patriots is required periodically to fertilze the tree of liberty.
You don't know what you are talkin about.
And I don't anything for free. I just my goddamn money back from the rich people that you are defending.
You are the worst kind of moron, cause you are advocating against your own class. You have NO honor!!!
Freedom is the inherent state of all being. I am free despite the violent nature of others.
Violence makes things worse.
If I am a moron, I am glad I am not whatever you are. ;)
'Honor' is for cowards who are too ignorant to stand up for themselves.
We need all the bodies we can get (even smelly ones, we'll put you in the front)
https://www.facebook.com/events/117461861757073/
This is a bridge to street activism.
Gandhigiri my friend, gandigiri.....
Huh?
It's gotta be spontaneous.
Cool. Good luck.
That what me be sayin man.
huh?
Action Alert! Join us in support of education for all.
https://www.facebook.com/events/117461861757073/
how about it?
No more organizations or groups or lobbies.
They are the problem, not the solution.
Yeah. We are not stronger united in large groups! We should each run around alone demanding change! Different days, Different issues, different places.
That will be very effective.
Yanks. Great idea.
You must change yourself before you can change the world.
LOL = "we'll put you in the front"
Pending on wind direction?
In an attempt to offend those we protest against.
Odor as a weapon of protest!
They're gonna call us smelly hippies anyway.
Yep - it is all they have to attack with - pick on the unemployed and homeless that wallstreet/banksters created - wonder what all of the educated and well employed OWS Occupy protestors think about that?
Oh yeah, obviously it is a dishonest attempt at demonization. One which the 1% used effectively.
But no matter, we are still growing, & going strong.
Because the one thing that can't be played is the truth - that is why there is no MSM coverage - Even With Spin - but the truth is getting out anyway - and from multiple sources/groups as well as from individuals.
I know i tell people every day. The forum is great, But I'm talking to supporters, or unchangeable enemies. (which is good practice).
Day to day life presents the opportunity to talk with people who can be swayed.
And i see people sympathetic to our cause.
I talk to people when I am out and about - I have not found a supporter for the BS going on in government or anyone supporting the Bankster Bailouts - and quite a few who can not believe that none of the Banksters have gone to prison.
It is the biggest offense. It is the evidence that our govt is owned and that the system is rigged against the 99% and in favor of the 1%.
The chorus of outrage will grow.
I hope - with all due speed. We have a potentially mass life ending course to correct - and it needs to be corrected soon.
true. true
This is the primary truth that the people need to realize.
Interoccupy worldwide education action
http://emancipating-education-for-all.org/manila_fee_protest_mourn_suicide
FYI
Action Alert. Defend Education Day.
http://www.defendeducationday.org/
Please support our young people.
I am one of Your young people.
I support your right to education without indentured servitude.
I support my right to go to the library and read a book.
I wish you would do just that.
I suggest this one (for the 2nd time)
http://books.google.com/books?id=sAlEWHkVZ6wC&pg=PA174&dq=student+debt+crisis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EkBXUfrEB7C-0QHg04D4CA&ved=0CEcQ6AEwAw
I like this one. Katherine Maltwood has a unique view on the nature of Freedom:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Guide-Glastonburys-Temple-Stars-Maltwood/dp/0227678672
Never heard of this book. Care to summarize?
It is about her theories concerning a large zodiac present on the landscape around glastonbury in the southwest of england.
She once said this about Freedom:
So at long last I found that the vessel of the Holy Grail was in the beginning, the tomb in the garden of our destiny, but the 'tree of life' springs out of it, the stars for fruit. The vitalizing rays of the 'true Sun' are caught in this cauldron of our Universe and all creation is redeemed. Here is the symbolic tomb of 'the mysteries' leading to the resurrection and eternal life, a message down the ages - "As from beyond the limit of the world. Like the last echo born of a great cry."
Wow, that is deep.
Thanks
Good.
Support students! Please sign the petition.
http://www.credoaction.com/campaign/student_private_loans/
Again with the petitions?!?!?!
Powerful tool!
Please sign & pass on.
Thank you
Why can't I just do it on my own?
Do what on your own?
Do what ever it is that the petition wants to do.
Signing the petition is "the public" doing it on OUR own. It's people getting togather to influence policy in a way that benefits the 99%.
Won't you join us? It benefits ALL people including you.
i want to do it on MY own.
Im the 1.428571428571429e-10%. Im a person, Im not you.
Cool! Just do it man.
I be doin it mannnnn......... :)
Then all is under control. You're on the job.
Support HR 1330
http://signon.org/sign/support-the-student-loan-6?mailing_id=11041&source=s.icn.em.cr&%3Br_by=5462310+&r_by=1342324
Why should I prop up the corrupt and ineffective representative democracy which rules me?
You should not.
But you should support HR 1330, to help our fellow citizen students.
HR 1330 is a product of representative democracy. Is it not?
I suppose that is debatable. But yes supposedly. Not a very representative democracy really.
Certainly representative of the corp 1% oligarchs! That is true.
In fact whether this government represents 'the people' or students particularly is highly questionable.
So if we want to create change that benefits the 99% and of course students, (who the govt SHOULD be representing) then we must support HR 1330.
What other option is there? What are you suggesting, inaction?
The problem with representative democracy is that only the elected officials themselves are able to be heard. I would be arrested and thrown in jail for a long, long, long time for trying get on the US Sentate floor to make a speech. (<----Active non-violence)
Im suggesting a Common Law Republic. Im not against the substance of HR 1330 per se, Im just kinda irked that it's passage or not will not take my position into account.
OWS needs to declare it'self independance from the US government and assert self-determination.
I support direct democracy, horizontal, from the ground up and all. Ifyou have a plan for that I would be willing to listen and help.
In the meantime.the in between time I must fight for change that benefits the 99%
So if part of the plan is to not engage, not reform, not engage, then I'll pass.
Creating a new system of govt is necessary but for me it can't be an excuse for inaction.
So besides 'occupy declaring independence & asserting self determination' what is your plan?
Look for my thread called "common law republic".
Creating a new system is the empitamy of Action. Not working towards this "new system" is inaction.
Bitching and moaning at the powers to be, will only stall things.
For now, I suggest sticking gum on surviellence cameras, walking places that you need go whenever possible, and openly refusing to pay federal taxes.
Posting on this website is a perfect place to start.
I take issue with people not paying taxes. If you feel it is reprehensible to feed the beast, then work for minimum wage, don't stoop to the level of people you are protesting against.
The people I am protesting want "low" taxes. I want "no" taxes.
How would I be "feeding the beast" by Not giving them my money?
Id be NOT "feeding the beast" if I was to NOT pay taxes to support the military and congress and the president, ect.
Sorry dog, it's more complicated than that. Taxes also produces good things. I believe refusing to pay your legal obligations to our union is just you rationalizing keeping more for yourself. You are attempting to make yourself feel superior by doing what is inevitably bringing our country to ruin.
taxes are a price one pays to be wealthy in our society. If you really are indignant to what are country does with the lion's share of its taxes, then don't be the one who pays the lion's share of taxes.
After I got my degree, i contemplated not paying my loan, but after much thought, I realized that that would be scandalous of me. I'll pay what I owe because such an action says more about my character than it does to protest the TPTB.
I believe that the involuntary nature of federal taxes creates further dictatorship over the government's subjects.
You must, must differentiate between local taxes (mostly voluntary, as they are mostly sales taxes) and federal taxes (all of which are involuntary). Im not against funding public works locally, IE, libraries, parks, roads, bridges, schools, ect. I am against funding the military, congress, and the president and all of thier efforts.
Accepting the government's power to tax education through student loans, tells me lots about your character. It tells me that you are a pushover and am more concerned with how others perceive your actions rather than being concerned with how you yourself percieve your own actions.
Thoreau said it: “If a thousand men were not to pay their tax-bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent blood. This is, in fact, the definition of a peaceable revolution, if any such is possible.”
I can't argue with that last comment. Yes, going to jail for a deeply held conviction is a true show of character.
Andy Dufresne!!!
Im free no matter what.
Its all about how you look at life...
Because taxes are the product of law and to refuse to obey the law is not something that should be honored. It is so easy to rationalize doing the most beneficial thing for one's self by cloaking the decision in righteous indignation. it is harder to sacrifice wealth, working for minimum wage, so as to not be obligated to pay what you find reprehensible. If you don't want to pay then don't play.
To play and then refuse to pay, makes you no better than those you find deplorable.
If every liberal said "fuck you, Im not supporting your bailouts and wars anymore" then there would be a shitstorm of change in this country.
Just because something is a law doesnt mean it is just.
One who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.
Accepting injustice would be lowering myself to the government's level. By resisting thier injustice, Id be working towards a solution.
Again, don't see it that way. To take a loan from anyone then refuse to pay it is cowardly. I won't be taking anymore loans from the Gov't because of what I learned in college, but I also wont welsh on the debt I took on with my own free will.
Standing upto the government and refusing to give them MY money is cowardly? How so?
Conforming to the expectations of society and government is cowardly.
Education is a right, not a privilage. Some are forced to take on loans, because that is the only way they can afford to go to college.
So unless we do what you want we are just "bitching & moaning"?
The efforts of millions of people to create change that benefits the 99% only "stalls things"?
And only efforts for the "new system" is action, otherwise ALL other efforts are inaction?
Obviously I can't agree with that. I embrace all non violent tactics. We MUST encourage all efforts to fight the corp 1% oligarchs. I support your goals (I don't advise anyone to not pay taxes) I could take part in actions you describe but I don't prefer to put down others efforts.
Others efforts don't hurt my efforts. It ain't all about me. If I want a new system, I must build support for it. Not by insulting other protesters, but by lifting up my goal.
Have you ever tried lifting up your own goals, in a positive way?.
It's too easy to lift yourself up by putting others down but in the end it doesn't work. You only alienate those who might support you.
I said "bitching and moaning" is counterproductive. You dont have to stop if you dont want to.
I want to convince you, not force you. You gotta do it for you and no one else or it is pointless.
Like I said, we agree on the ends, just not the means.
I agree with your goal, I reject your tactic of putting down others to lift yourself up.
Have you ever tried lifting up your own goals, in a positive way?.
It's too easy to lift yourself up by putting others down but in the end it doesn't work. You only alienate those who might support you.
The whole point of gandhigiri is getting those who you beleive are wrong to see the error of thier ways.
In 2007, Indian workers living in the US sent massive amounts of roses and other flowers to the US Citizenship and Immigration Services, protesting the immigration system in the US.
The USCIS, on it's own, later said that "it will accept applications from foreign professionals seeking permanent residency through an expedited process, reversing its earlier decision."
You gotta Carry On!!!!
Obviously, that goes without saying. Do you want me to.?
that is up to you....
Is it up to me whether YOU want me to ignore you?
Should I?
that is up to you....
I meant by the people you were asking about. I always respond when I get comments.
Mostly.
You arent ignoring me....
I think you are being ignored
Then why did you literally say who you were? you obviously did not get it.....
I am inclusionman, formerly VQkag(2).
I thought everyone knew who I was.
Who are you that you don't know what is in your own text?
Does anyone here read or are my references just going over everyone's heads?
Read through it again. It will be clear.
I wrote it!!!! Who are you!?!?!?
None of it.
Specifics?
Oh yeah. I did read that non sense. not really workable.
You should put a comment in there to bump it up you might get people to discuss it if they see it.
What exactly about it is "not really workable"?
You haven't given me anything to read. You are delusional. Post a link. I'll check it out.
I've been to many protests each larger than the last. We are growing despite your efforts to stop our activism.
You don't even know how to post a link.
Ive posted links for my thread numerous times after initially posting it.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-common-law-republic/
There are millions of like minded people fighting for the progressive change that will benefit the 99%.
You think your effort is doing just as well?
LOL.
Whatta laugh. You can't even get people to read it. You are unable to even verbalize it. LOL
All your comments are about stopping our activism so in fact your efforts/strategy has failed miserably because our efforts/activism is growing everyday despite your best efforts.
LMFAO
I (You) dont need to convince the people that already agree with me (you).
Im trying to convince people that DONT agree with me as of yet.
It is not my fault that you cant properly respond to something that I have requested you read over and over and over again(after you asked me to tell you what my suggestions were). Im sorry you cant read, but that is your problem, not mine.
!LMFAO!
Instead of criticizing me and my activism (and millions of others).
Why don't you "convince" me by telling me how great your approach/strategy is?
I can't even repeat one aspect of your proposal. So clearly your efforts are so far only to stop our activism, not to push your supposedly more superior strategy.
But no matter, you believe you are right and I am wrong. Time will tell, the marketplace of ideas is the final unbiased decider.
So once again, how are YOU and your proposal doing? Sign on many (ANY?) people? (5th time asking!!)
Ive been trying to do that. Did you read my suggestion thread "the common law republic"?
My proposal is doing just as well as yours is. Both are falling on deaf ears at the moment. You can fix that by reading my thread.
Don't stop. Who cares. I don't need to expend energy to get you to stop cause your efforts do not affect me. You efforts to stop others activism as some requirement for your efforts to succeed is telling.
I could say the same thing about your chances but what be the purpose? It is only my opinion so really I could only say I don't think you will get very far. (even though you pretend you KNOW my efforts (& millions ofothers) are a ineffective & counterproductive)
So as soon as you pretend to know I tune your ignorant arrogance out.
But no matter, you believe you are right and I am wrong. Time will tell, the marketplace of ideas is the final unbiased decider.
So once again, how are YOU and your proposal doing? Sign on many (ANY?) people?
I care!!!! Im not going to stop on account of you. In fact because of you, I want to convince you even more.
Im not trying to stop you, Im trying to show you the light. We agree on the END point, but one of us will get there way before the other will.
Trying to get the US government to wound itself by agreeing with you is like hoping the moon will fall out of the sky. Arguing with idiots(refering to elected officials in the US) will get you no where.
I could say the same thing about your chances but what be the purpose? It is only my opinion so really I could only say I don't think you will get very far. (even though you pretend you KNOW my efforts (& millions ofothers) are a waste)
So as soon as you pretend to know I tune your ignorant arrogance out.
But no matter, you believe you are right and I am wrong. Time will tell, the marketplace of ideas is the final unbiased decider.
So once again, how are YOU and your proposal doing? Sign on many (ANY?) people?
I didnt say that "your efforts are a waste". You can put value on whatever you want. I am saying that "you tactics are counterproductive and ineffective".
The goal of a civil resister is to provoke a response. I dont care what names you call me, Im not going to stop.
You guys should look at GKs blog... It approaches these issues in a cohesive way
Linked here....scroll to Ethics, near SOULESS corporation
http://occupywallst.org/forum/implementing-the-initiatives-ammendments-action-pl/
You ONLY use offensive tactics!!! What are you joking.?
LOL
I ain't offended, I don't know you, so you ain't really important enough to do so.
Just thought I would give you my opinion about your tactics.
How is it going.? Got a big group together? Has anyone joined you at all?
LMFAO
have you ever read the Art of War?
You can fight without violence.
The means and ends are inseperable. It would be hypocritical of me to say I want to convince you that you are wrong and that I am right, but then not try to do anything about it. I am just saying that you are not going to get very far using the tactics that you have been using.
Wonderful story of an effort to change the existing system back then.
I agree with your goal, I reject your tactic of putting down others to lift yourself up.
Have you ever tried lifting up your own goals, in a positive way?.
It's too easy to lift yourself up by putting others down but in the end it doesn't work. You only alienate those who might support you.
Im sorry if you feel alianated or offended or put down in any way, but that is your problem, not mine.
Im trying to convince you. If calling you a "weakling" doesnt work the first time, I wont use it a second time. As I havent. Suggesting alternatives IS a positive though, dont get put down just because I refuse to sign you petitions or support potential laws.
I refuse to be politically correct just because some or one may be offended by my speech. I will always do things My way. You should do things YOUR way and we can try to make both our ways as close to eachother as possible.
So?
Year round education starting in kindergarten can cut 3 years off of college costs.
Hows that?
Read a book and learn 1000 times what you could ever learn from a teacher at a school.
I didn't realize it at the time, but it was teachers in public schools that taught me how to interpret and comprehend what I read.
Words alone, do not equate to knowledge.
My point exactly. Teachers and schools are supplements to the act of learning itself. Teachers cant read the book for you; they can only serve a resource for understanding the book.
Only about 10% of learning actually occurs in school.
You have it exactly backwards. It's libraries that supplement what the teachers have taught you.
Please stuff the percentages. It's speculative at best.
Young being weighed down with massive debt.
http://www.inquisitr.com/595013/student-loan-interest-doubles-what-can-college-kids-do-about-debt/
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/student-loan-interest-rate-double-34-percent-68-percent-july-1
Join occupy against this exploitative action.
I dont live in a hole. I am aware of the student loan situation.
We just have different ways of dealing with the problem.
You want to argue with the idiots. I want to go on living the way I want to live depsite the idiots.
I don't want to argue with idiots. Why would you say something so idiotic?
Giving the idiots petition after petition after petition is arguing with the idiots.
I am an idiot, so I should know one when I see one......
Petitions are time tested valuable actions that anyone can do, and contributes to the many other tactics that WILL create change.
What idiots are you talkin about.?
Petitions are useful when out in the public, creating a buzz, and gathering information of signers for upcoming actions and opportunities.
Online petitions are usually just a way for the gov to gather information.
Nah. that's just paranoia talkin. On'line petitions have been wildly successful. And they have the added benefit of being easy to use and spread with the newest communications methods. Social media.!!!
We consider petitions to be gateway activism. Many people move on to more substantial protesting tactics.
Finally, we never know what small effort/tactic might inspire that super activist.
So sign away. Push on the system through any and all non violent means necessary. Grow the movement in any way possible. And DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT discourage any peaceful activist tactic.
Im am an idiot, yet you continually argue with me.
Dude, i may be an idiot, but im not a politician.
ok.
I like you.
Not likely. Support occupies effort to abolish student debt.
http://occupystudentdebt.com/
Are you advocating no teachers/schools? Seems a bit ignorant. We need schools & teachers.
But more to the point we need a revolutionary change in how we educate our people.
Year round,
Internet personal track,
3 year college,
expanded Pell grants, cost cutting in college, tax business to pay.
I am advocating for people to educate themselves, no matter what the state of schools are.
You cant wait for the education system to fix itself, id rather just learn on my own.
I dont get educated by someone else. I educate myself.
How wonderful for you. The rest of society is gonna continue utilizing the thousands of years oldsystem of schools.
In so far as reform, we must expect to constantly review/reform the school system because the needs of society & teaching tech continually change.
Are you ok with that?
Libraries have been around much longer than colleges and or secondary and primary schools. People have been learning on their own since the dawn of time.
I have a problem with schools the way they are because so many people in them think that their purpose is to prepare students for employment rather than teaching the students how to learn.
The best class I ever took was a European History class; not because i was so interested in european history, but because I learned more about learning in the class than I ever did in most other classes. The school suplemented my education, it didnt give it to me.
Again, that is wonderful for YOU!. I agree with the failure of American education to 'train for work', & not teach critical thinking.
That is a critical part of the necessary reform.
But we must build on the existing system & not throw the baby out with the bath water.
i agree. but you must realize that education is not like surgery. The student cant just lay there motionless and unconsious while the teachers performs learning upon the student.
It is the student's responsiblity to learn for themselves.
I submit the reforms necessary include students studying what the want on their own (internet, personal tablet) with supervision (limited) and oversight (to meet common guidelines).
So I've never said "students should just lay there". Why would yuo say that. Why would you attach that lie to me.?
Active learning at your own speed with teachers providing minimal (or more, depending on student) involvement.
Flexibility would be most valuable.
people should be educated with or without a good education system. The only way to do this is for people to learn for and on themselves.
why cant people just go to the library, check out a book on thier favorite topic of the day, read the book, and learn about what the author has to say? Why is supervision(even limited) necesary for that process?
We need schools. If you can't understand that fundamental fact I can't help you. Whether you believe in school or not you will pay taxes to support them. Sorry.
Did you go to school?
I went to school, but most of what i have learned didnt come from school. I learned despite going to school.
Riiiiiight! I get it. You got yours, the hell with everyone else. We all paid for your school with our taxes, now you refuse to pay taxes for the rest of our schooling.
Conveeeenient.
I was forced to go to school. The govt sets up compulsory education and makes it a crime for me not to go.
I'm am happy to pay taxes that go towards the libraries though. ;)
I don't think that I would go to a self educated surgeon. I would wonder who/what he practiced on.
I would go to a surgeon who not only went to school, but furthered his own education by studying on his own and for himself.
School is a complement to self-education, not the other way around.
Abolish student debt
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865576374/Student-Loan-Hero-helps-pay-off-debt.html
This is how you do it
HR1330: Abolish student debt!!
http://signon.org/sign/support-the-student-loan-6?mailing_id=10657&source=s.icn.em.cr&%3Br_by=5462310&r_by=1342324
Please support us!
Ease student loan interest
http://blog.pe.com/schools/2013/03/21/colleges-bill-would-ease-cost-of-student-loans/
pressure all pols to support this bill
Action Alert: I am not a loan
http://www.iamnotaloan.org/
http://studentdebtcrisis.org/
http://www.iamnotaloan.org/
Join and help the indentured servitude we have allowed banks to subject our young people to.
[Removed]
NY is makin an effort.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/OccupyCUNY/186794284733282
http://occupywallst.org/article/cuny-protests-happening-now/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/04/cooper-union-tuition-protests_n_2236936.html
http://chronicle.com/article/At-Baruch-College-Tuition/129871/
Hey, nobody has a gun to anyones head to force them to take out tens of thousands of dollars to go to college - especially when the degree they get doesn't provide them with a job.
How about PAYGO - work to pay for your college degree instead of expecting someone else to pay for it.
Besides, If the government is going to pay for your college degree I want the government to pay for my car.
Why should some people benefit when others who are working their asses off to pay for their own well being be left out.
As sure as having a gun put to your head, our young people know their lives are threatened if they do not go to a good college, and as a result they are FORCED to borrow massive amounts of money.
Just as k-12 is paid by society because it is in societies interest to have educated people, it is time to have college paid for by society (corp tax increase will do it).
You must have heard the saying "if you think education is expensive, try ignorance"
Don't be ignorant! Support Occupy in our effort to abolish student debt, and make college free.
It is rediculous to think that "college should be free". I guess everyone who wants a free college degree will also need free housing and food to go along with it - right?
And lets not stop there how about free housing along with a new car to get around in because the free college degree didn't get them the job they wanted.
The constitution doesn't say anything about giving people a "free college degree".
Next, everyone will be demanding free housing, free food and free transportation - where does it end
Hell if the government decides to give you or anyone else a "free college degree" then I want a "free delivery truck" for my business -
I didn't say free. I said paid for by society. You are blatantly lying because your position doesn't stand up to thetruth.
AndI ain't suggesting anything else be free (another post perhaps) that is you creating a straw man (phony argument) to knock down because once again your arguments are so weak you gotta lie.
You are pathetic, I addition to your shortsightedness, & selfishness.
Well correct me if I am wrong but the headline reads "free college"?
Education should be free to the students.
Are you talking about the system we already have in place that is not free but funded by the taxpayers K through 12?
Or are you talking about "college education"?
Funded by tax payers = "SOCIETY" and it should be free to the student from cradle to grave - initial education and follow-up education as new is incorporated to curriculum. So that people stay relevant - up to date. Though many individuals will get that education on the job - AS THEY are the ones making the new discoveries developments and implementations that are then brought to the educational system.
So why should "education" be free to everyone from cradle to grave?. At present 80% of all students who graduate from HS can't even get into college.
Think maybe we need to focus more on "family values" instead of thinking that "more education" will solve the problem.
We have a crisis in this country when it comes to children and parenting - we don't have a "more free education problem".
The divorce rate in this country is running around 45% or 50% - do you really think "more education" will solve any problem.
It may for those students who excell but the percentage is low - so I can see giving them a free ride.
But how about those students who graduate from HS thinking that going to college would be a good thing but yet they have to take 2 years of remedial courses just to get accepted.
Lets focus on where the real problem is - parenting and nurturing children and high schools.
And for those who have earned creidibility to enter college when they graduate I don't have a problem giving them a scholarship to continue on.
What I don't want to see is slackers getting a free ride because it there - not because they have a vested interest in it.
80 % of high school graduates can not even get into college?
Would that be due to lack of proper education?
Or would that be due to a lack of funds?
Or a bit of both?
This country this society is ill - and has been for a long long time.
As work leaves our shores - what do people in school look forward to being able to do once they graduate? Not just from college - but from High School.
OF those who go to college now - how many are looking to learn how to game the system? So that they can be successful like the other wallstreet and business/corpoRAT white collar criminals. Hell just to pay off their loans.
The real slackers are those wealthy that are taking the wealth that their workers create and are hiding it off shore in tax havens or in starting up sweatshops.
As far as the 80% goes it has all to do with parenting and you may disagree but teachers and tenure.
Georgia in the past week decided to take around 80 teachers to court for fixing papers and their salaries were based on student success. Now if unions were involved they would get a slap on the wrist and that would be it.
High School grads are just starting out in life and shouldn't expect to be making $50,000 a year. - that's who the fast food jobs are for.
Now if college is their choice then proper parenting goes hand in hand with helping them to get there - but that isn't happening and we are lead to believe that throwing tons of money at the schools will solve the problem - it won't.
With regard to work leaving our shores - what kinds of jobs are leaving - mostly manufacturing jobs.
There are jobs out there but not jobs like most people think - most jobs now are in the sciences - and they are good paying jobs.
There are companies out there that can't find people to fill those positions - but yet we still have people graduating from college getting degrees in areas where they won't possibly get a job.
College isn't the only choice - construction is another are for those who decide not to go to college - those jobs are plentiful but how many people do you know who want to get their hands dirty and have to start out from the bottom and work their way up the ladder over the years - not many.
Where is the parenting - when both parents are working full-time ( and more ) JUST to have a roof and food ?
This society is ill - FACT
It has been very ill for decades - FACT
The illness stems from Greed - FACT
The Greed of those in power - FACT
If you are unable to see this - Then your education has been a colossal failure - FACT
So I guess we need to give everyone free room and boarding so they can get their free degree while their children are being taken care of by government.
Maybe they shouldn't have children until they are financially secure. And maybe just maybe should they decide to get married and have children learn to stick it out through the thick and thin of life instead of bailing out.
That would solve a lot of problems wouldn't it?
Society should just neuter/spay psychopaths - such as yourself.
This has been a Public Service Health Announcement.
The More You Know.
Your answer is typical of most on here who think that the world should revolve around you and your thinking, along with your little band of uneducated, unexperienced arrogant hyprotical individuals.
Well it doesn't and it isn't going to change because of what you or others think should be "best" for everyone - just like the democrats think that it's ok to spend other peoples money to get what they want.
@Stormcrow2 the psychopathic shill.
I don't expect everyone to think like me. I expect people to look at the issues and see the truth.
BTW - only other shills like your self will think like your masters - you know the greedy psychopaths who are destroying the world.
[-] -1 points by Stormcrow2 (-2) 11 minutes ago
Your answer is typical of most on here who think that the world should revolve around you and your thinking, along with your little band of uneducated, unexperienced arrogant hyprotical individuals.
Well it doesn't and it isn't going to change because of what you or others think should be "best" for everyone - just like the democrats think that it's ok to spend other peoples money to get what they want. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
Free to the people but intelligent people know nothing is free. The cost should be shared by mostly business who benefit from an educated society.
In Australia, you can use the HECS (higher education contribution scheme) to pay for your education. Any tax returns you get on your future income are garnisheed to repay your loan. No interest is charged.
The downside is, even if your course could have been claimed as a tax deduction, IF you had paid up front, you can't use the HECS, and then claim it back as a deductible training expense.
You still have to pay for course materials and hard copies or books.
Get a degree and then go and teach for no pay. Problem solved. Do it for a college that doesn't get an electric bill and has maintenance staff that works for free and...etc., etc.
Support occupies efforts to resolve the broken student debt crises.
http://occupystudentdebt.com/
Stop student debt interest increase
http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/budget/291029-students-appeal-for-obamas-help-as-deadline-looming-on-college-loan-rate-hike#ixzz2PDvnyUmo
Support the effort to abolish student debt
http://signon.org/sign/support-the-student-loan-6?mailing_id=10657&source=s.icn.em.cr&%3Br_by=5462310&r_by=1342324
Burdening our children with tons of debt is caused by more than school debts.
Interoccupy. Take down salliemae
http://interoccupy.net/takedownsalliemae/?doing_wp_cron=1363907380.1758849620819091796875
Big part of it though right?
What group of students would we target with this program? What do we forsee these students doing with the education they obtain through these programs?
If we teach children more in high school we can cut college to 3 years.
http://www.campusexplorer.com/college-advice-tips/143ABAE6/New-College-Trend-3-Year-College-Degrees/
Don't you agree?
Occupy student debt
http://www.occupystudentdebtcampaign.org/
Good site to explain
http://projectonstudentdebt.org/
ALL students who are not wealthy should the 1st beneficiaries. There are no limits on the degree or what they do with their education.
I am having a hard time imagining a mechanical engineering degree on such a foundation. A typical degree requires many, many courses. who would teach differential equations? Who would teach mechanics, etc? Probably more feasable to focus efforts on, say, associate degrees for preperation for bachelor programs, or technical skills
Please sign petition supporting students.
http://www.credoaction.com/campaign/student_private_loans/
I think we can include ALL students in need. Certainly ALL in need must be the goal.