Forum Post: A Paradox
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 15, 2011, 5:35 p.m. EST by PMTZ
(1)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I was looking at photos from the Big Pic (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture) and was thinking about something.
How many of the protesters came in vehicles made by General Motors, Ford, Toyota fueled by ExxonMobile, Shell, BP? Did anyone fly in on a Boeing airplane which uses General Electric engines? How many cardboard signs were created by Weyerhaeuser? How many plastic tarps (or plastic anything) were mass produced by DuPont and Dow? Did they buy them at Walmart or Target? How many tents, sleeping bags, and coolers were made by Coleman, and what factory did the Nylon come from? I saw a woman smoking a cigarette. Did that come from RJ Reynolds? What factory did their clothes came from, and how many people wear Nike? Are they Tweeting on their iPhone, Blackberry, Nokia using ATT, Sprint, Verizon? Are their cameras made by Canon or Panasonic?
I found the Occupy Wall Street website through Google on my Apple computer using IBM chips and a Motorola modem. Do they have the same?
Doesn't Wall Street fund all these businesses?
Yes, this will be great for the stock market and capitalism; rally on. Nothing wrong with that. It's the capitalism without ethics that has to go.
No the Wall Street isn't funding these companies.
Stock exchanges were founded for funding companies and for giving these companies the possibility to get new money.
BUT we are speaking about going public and trade stock according to the profit expectations of the company.
What happens today at the Wall Street has nothing to do with this economical aim. They created "financial products" which are just a gamble, allure normal people into these investments - earn a lot of money and sent these investments into bankrupty, ... with profit is distributed to the shareholders, but the deficit has to be payed by the taxpayer.
That has NOTHING to do with funding companies. Instead of that they send the "normal" economy into deep crisis and leave the taxpayers allone with these costs. In the moment we are having the 3 crisis of the world economy caused by the Wall Street within only 2 decades. The last big crisis caused by different reasons is 30 years away - the next to last crists is 80 years away.
Wall St. does not fund, but arranges funding for these corporations by underwriting bond or stock offerings.
@ c0lex "I'm against the crooks, the thieves, the mercenaries, and the deviants." Well, me too. Whether it's the punks who robbed my apartment, the middle class neighbor who molested my little sister, or the CEO who did insider trading. But what I don't understand is how you eradicate "greed". Is it through better regulation?
@ nolimits88 "You completely don't understand what is going on here do you." Actually, I don't. I'm not being a smart ass. It was a sincere observation of what seems to be a paradox. We all want our 21st century conveniences, but not the "evil" that goes with it. But I'm hard pressed to live in a comfortable apartment, drive a small economy car, watch a twelve year old CRT television, and work on a computer without tripping over someone somewhere being greedy in that long chain.
@ newstart "This fundamental fact means they should INVEST in us" What does that mean?
I guess what I don't understand is what the end game is in all this. Stop Corporate Greed is a platitude. I agree with it, but how do you do it?
Anyone who is saying that all business should die should be prepared to return to the dark ages. That is not what the movement is calling for. I'm not against people making money, not against corporations for profit. I'm not against a millionaire having three cars and a nice house. A lot of companies start out of garages and basements. They're guys and girls just like us, trying to make a living, and they happen to have an idea worth its weight in gold. No, evil and corporate are not synonymous in my dictionary. But that doesn't excuse the evil doers. That doesn't excuse an insurance company who lets a woman die because she had a yeast infection 30 years ago and they deny her cancer treatments because of a 'pre-existing condition'. I'm not ok with a bank foreclosing on an old lady's house because her social security payments don't go up as fast as her interest rates do, especially considering the person who sold her the loan failed to explain the meaning of an adjustable rate. I'm not ok with oil companies spilling millions of gallons of oil into OUR ocean, killing all the wildlife, polluting our water, and then hiking up our gas prices to console us. I'm not ok with a corporation taking water from the Great Lakes, PUBLIC LAKES, and selling it back to us for 10x what it cost to bottle. I'm not ok with McDonalds trying to advertise its food as healthy, or Dole saying its 100% juice when there are 6 ingredients on the god damn bottle. I'm not ok with any of these things. I'm not ok with private banks owning the central bank for a whole country, and the government granting them the exclusive right to print currency to support the liquidity of their own industry! When people commit these acts, they are severely punished. When corporations commit these acts, they are bailed out, patted on the back, and given a 22nd chance.
Am I against Wall St just because its Wall St? Corporations just because they are corporations? Money just because someone else has it and I don't? No. That would be ignorant. I'm against the crooks, the thieves, the mercenaries, and the deviants. The congressman who sells out his country for a new car and some hookers. The CEO who fires the accountant with a conscience for asking why they are letting people suffer to make an extra penny. I'm against the notion that just because the bank pays back a bailout, that it means it was a success. If I stole money from your sister's purse, deposited it in a CD and gave her 10% interest a few years later, would you say that was ok?
And I'm especially against the notion that just because a corporation makes an IPhone or a Car, or transfers my money from my checking account to my savings account, that they are somehow exempt from the rules. I'd like to keep buying your products, sirs, but if it comes down to choosing my self-respect or your POS made in china, guess what's going to happen?
You completely don't understand what is going on here do you.
(Actually, I think you do, and you're just being a smart ass)
How's that working out for you? Keep it up. You've got an A game right there.
All with parts made in China! Workers of the world unite!
We the people are the consumer and the laborer. We should be treated with respect. Executives need to be grateful and humble, because the 99% make their company so great. They should recognize that without us they would be nothing. This fundamental fact means they should INVEST in us, as we have invested in them. A sustainable cycle, where we all not only survive, but THRIVE.
On the phones, yeah - you know of an alternative to the current phone infrastructure? I don't, unless you're talking using something like short wave radio. Oh, but you need a license for that from drum roll the FCC. :} You can use the citizen's band (CB) without a license, but the device itself must be FCC certified. There are closed resource systems, and most people can't escape them, due to either lacking the expertise, knowledge, or other resources to facilitate an alternative. That should change.
Yes, but the economy could be more fair.
I encourage you to look into a documentary made in the last few years. Perhaps someone reading this might know the name of it. It was just this one man, is wife, and their child and his whole thing was to live off the grid, out of "the system" you talk about. To buy everything 100% American and organic. He documented everything they had to do and go through.
The system has swallowed us, and now we are not only using it against itself, but in the process trying to break free.
Please, support the occupation movement and its artists. It is worth it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reazEr_AIBk
On the cigarette - there's an easy one, for instance. Growing your own tobacco is NOT illegal and NOT regulated (surprise!) - only selling tobacco products is. You can buy seeds from a grower here or even from another country without any restrictions. It's a matter of knowing this that arms the people.
On the transportation, that's a lot tougher. I don't know any "small town" car manufacturing companies down the street. You can use bikes, horses, etc., but that's not always realistic for the need. That requires a different approach altogether.
On the transportation issue: don't buy a new car. Buy used. The manufacturer already made his profit when it was bought new. This profit would go to the used car lot owner(s). Added bonus: buying from a used car lot benefits the local economy since you're buying from a local business, not a huge multinational car manufacturer.
Of course, if we produce a gasoline vehicle, that's a whole new problem, right? I have heard some rumors of an engine in development that would run on the creation of hydrogen gas from aluminum and water: http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html - very excited to see this develop further. I think this could be a be key in solving both the energy crisis, and the power struggles over petroleum based fuels for things like automobiles.
Surprised I haven't seen more of this, actually - it seems very promising, would expect more chatter over it. Take a moment to skim the article - it's very cool science happening :)
One big problem, though, to getting "scratch-built" cars on the road would be getting them certified and inspected. Automobiles are one of the most stringent products on the market, as far as getting them certified and legal. Safety and emissions inspections. Hard to get around that. You can thank 100 years of crooks and shysters in the car business for that. That's why the term "used-car salesman" is usually equated with crook. And as far a the hydrogen from water and aluminum, it's a fascinating idea, but I, for one, would be a bit hesitant about developing a concept that would start using water, our most basic and important resource (and irreplaceable), as a fuel.
Is petroleum more or less replaceable than water? Which is in danger of causing greater pollution? To my knowledge, we have no way of recapturing spent gasoline. Water used in the process, I think that may be a different matter. I would have to check, though - this is definitely not my area of expertise. Compelling concern, though. I think it would be a better alternative, until we can find that elusive perpetual motion machine, or - what was the other one? - cold fusion , was it? Free energy, not yet available, so we'll have to deal with definites - only gas at this point, right? - until then.
I think we can still get a real effort going to make transportation more accessible locally, by the "common man", if not perfectly autonomous from a central system just yet.
Well, the jury is still out on that one. I know most of us have been told about "Peak Oil" and all that, but check out the research out of Russia and the Ukraine about the concept of abiogenic petroleum. Don't believe Wikipedia that it's an abandoned concept, it's been getting renewed attention lately. Truth is, you just don't know who to believe when it comes to hot topics like gas prices and such.
(can't reply anymore - our thread is too 'deep', hehe, so I'll have to reply to this one from here on)
So, do we have a means of producing it locally, (it being oil, gasoline) or will our locally produced cars still be at the mercy of those who can drill for and refine oil? That will be a real catch in this idea for locally controlled transportation (unless we can come up with an alternative engine, like a completely solar or electric car) :)
Actually, I think solar or electric might be entirely viable, but it changes the people we'd need for the project a bit.
Is abiogenic petroleum something we can create without significant means of production (eg. giant, expensive equipment or labs)? If so, that could be an interesting avenue. I'll check it out. It still pollutes, I assume, but an alternative and genuinely viable source for combustion engines would be excellent.
It's the exact same crude oil we pump out of the ground now, it's just a different theory as to how it was formed and if we are, in fact, running out of it. It's not an alternative to oil, it is oil. It just means there's a hell of a lot more down there than the oil companies want you to believe (to keep prices high). And face it, even if we didn't burn gasoline in our autos the world still needs plenty of petroleum for lubricants, plastics, etc. Do a web search on it; it makes you wonder.
That's a great idea! Of course, eventually all used cars will outrun their lifespan (or get glass poured into the engine, and then be crushed and have the scrap metal shipped to China, under the guise of giving everyone new cars and saving the environment). :/ But that's a good short term option - very cool.
For the long term, it seems we would need more people skilled in automotive or other transportation options, on a local level. Or a lot more horses and carriages, heh. I'd prefer the solution doesn't send us backwards, though, personally... Lots of people have built homes and other equipment with local resources, scrap, and skill. What about a program that charters different blueprints for building cars or other forms of transportation using available resources (and even better if it's something scrapped before or reused from another process)? I saw that open ecology project where they were building 50 different types of machines and publishing the blueprints on how to do it - why not have something like that for transportation? Where are our 99% automotive workers to help with a project like this? Anyone here interested?
I am willing to help organize any effort like that - I can provide communications and IT support to help coordinate an effort to create a transportation alternative. On the whole, we would need more though: we need, preferably, a skilled mechanic who is capable of, (or willing to learn how to be capable of), building a car from the ground up. This is a complex list of skills, but I know from personal associates there are those folks out there :) Ideally, someone familiar with the scrap and junkyard industry, someone involved in the backend of a recycling operation, would be great too. And finally, someone who can provide readable, detailed production plans on reproducing the project with most local resources and distribute these plans for free (I can help with some of this, at least).
Agreed. America needs to get innovative again, we used to lead the world in that respect. I've always been a firm believer in recycling and basically that's what used car lots are doing. You ought to see how some of those guys in Cuba and S. America keep their cars running for years, it's amazing. Talk about creative. Luckily though, they'll always be used cars in the US because someone will always insist on buying new. There's always fleet cars that come up for sale, too. Ex-rentals, taxis, etc. Usually higher mileage but well-maintained. I bought an ex-fleet pickup once with 100,000 miles on it and still got another 150,000 before it got totaled. Could've got more but . . .
Yeah... we do have the disadvantage of being in a colder overall climate. Most cars in a climate where it snows tend to live much shorter lives, largely due to the salt they spread on roads in the wintertime. If you look at the average car age in, say, North Dakota, to the average car age in Texas, you'll see a difference. I agree on the used cars - great way to really get the most out of the materials used, and many are still in perfect working order when they're sold back or traded in. Some really should be broken down and partially scrapped (I've driven lemons that barely made it off the lot - those are just used to catch unwitting people who are not educated in automotive skills, and make money off them), but most are at least functional, if not always pretty.
So, anybody interested in this kind of project? Know anybody who might be? Let's actually do something with this idea.
Yeah, I thought of the same thing, and almost posted about it. Something hit me, though - in the current situation, most people don't have the means of producing a lot of the stuff you've mentioned. Their only option is using the system. I think that's part of what has a lot of people pissed off. That's why I really think we need to decentralize resources that people rely on; that would ensure no future power entity can sweep in and dictate to us what we must do, if we want to keep eating, sleeping under a roof, talking with each other over long distances, drinking clean water, etc.