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Forum Post: A call to the OWS community for research help

Posted 2 years ago on Dec. 25, 2011, 11:37 a.m. EST by factsrfun (7064) from Phoenix, AZ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

In November of 2000 after the election and before the recount there were questions about a “butterfly ballot” in Bower county I think. Anyway the night of the election and for a few days after, the three election board members met and cast votes on issues in real time that affected over 3000 votes that were in question. Of the three only the one who designed the ballot was advise by counsel before each vote.

Who was that lawyer?

21 Comments

21 Comments


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[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

As far as I know that butterfly ballot affected the entire state of Florida.

If anyone can reach out to Donald Norman I'm sure he can provide insight into his specific complaint about that ballot and its design far better than I can.

Not that this addresses your question regarding advice by counsel.

I'm curious - why do you ask?

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7064) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I watched the whole thing unfold in real time on a back feed pulled in with my big dish, I stay up for hours watching every minute. Before any cases had been filed I saw this one lady getting advice before each vote, I didn’t know her at first but over the days I learned who she was, she was the local official who designed the ballot used in that county, I believe it was just one, but got 10 times the votes for Buchanan than polls, (both before and exit) showed he should have and it was easy to see how he would benefit from the mistake, if it had been state wide I think Bush would have carried the state by 10% (almost). Anyway later I saw Ted Olson and realized that he was that lawyer, I would love for someone to confirm this. I was very surprised this did not become a big part of the story, but I was even more naive then.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

The Broward County Attorney's Office was advising the Elections Canvassing Commission.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7064) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

But only that one commissioner? He never spoke to the other two.

[-] -1 points by earnyours (124) 2 years ago

Think how incompetent you'd have to be to mis-vote. Anyone that admits to mis-voting should immediately have the natural gas service turned off at their house and be immediately re-tested for their driver's license. They also should probably go on a list for requiring a co-signer for any material contracts.

Rank them in order of complexity:

1) Knowing what day to vote. 2) Knowing where to vote. 3) Taking medications. 4) Processing road signs as they zoom past at 30mph 5) Knowing ANYTHING about issues 6) Finding the right hole to punch even though it's 1/16" from the arrow

So, liberalism depended that night on voters that couldn't pull off #6. Says a lot about liberalism.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7064) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

After not finding any WMDs I feel the same way about anyone who voted for Bush a second time, some things we find common ground on.

[-] 0 points by earnyours (124) 2 years ago

Processing an opinion about a candidate is more complicated than finding the hole to punch. Florida was about liberals claiming their voters were perplexed by the actual act of voting. LIke I said, anyone that claims to have botched voting shouldn't have something dangerous like a driver's license or natural gas service.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7064) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Actually the argument presented by Democrats in Florida was that all the votes should counted and when they finally did that turns out Gore did win the state.

As far as the Broward ballot is concerned the people involved should have been jailed for treason as it was an obvious attempt to interfere with a free and fair election and was in conflict with Florida law. I guess it is a common theme in America to “blame the victim” so why not blame the old folks.

[-] -1 points by earnyours (124) 2 years ago

They were counted, what Florida liberals wanted was a crack at interpreting the votes. They wanted to decide whom you voted for. We don't need interpreted ballots.

The ballot was approved by both parties before the election. The arrow pointed to within 1/16" of the hole. It was a straight line. Seriously, if you can't pull off voting, OMG.

Blame? You're too much. LOL. Can nothing be anyone's fault anymore? Does being old mean that fault is no longer possible? If they crashed their car on the way home, it is impossible for that to be their fault too?

If liberalism depends on people that can't pull off voting, it really doesn't say much for liberalism.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7064) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I'm sorry I had thought that you actually paid attention to the 2000 election, it's clear from your jumbled facts you didn't. Florida law was very clear under the conditions a recount was required, it was the Bush campaign that went to Federal Court to prevent Florida law from being implemented, first Bush went to state court to stop the recount then to the feds.

[-] 0 points by earnyours (124) 2 years ago

I did. You might want to conduct a little more voter "education" before the next election. Apparently, your side finds the whole thing to be rather complex. LOL. You might also want to review the many media reviews after the fact that confirmed the Bush win.

Think about what it means that a liberal win was thwarted because the arrow wasn't closer than 1/16" of inch to the hole. LOL. Interpreting ballots is no way to run elections. It was shocking how willingly liberals were willing to turn to this idea. Machines are objective.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7064) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Perhaps I don't share your infallible belief in the media; however I do know that the 4 state wide counts that were conducted after the fact resulted in Gore obtaining the higher vote count. At least you are aware that it was Bush that filed the lawsuits and got the courts involved I think the real question here is why did they have a problem allowing the process to be completed?

[-] 0 points by earnyours (124) 2 years ago

Subjective standards for vote interpretation was a bad idea. Maybe any candidate would've gone there, but even Nixon knew not to drag the country through something like that. I don't want any political machine deciding whom they decide I voted for. Imagine the Daley machine or it's ilk going this route one day. My votes can stand on their own.

Next time just come up with better ideas. That way you won't have to rely on people with such gross incompetencies that even the act is voting is beyond them.

If you don't like Florida, you should read up on the incompetently completed ballots in a place like East St. Louis. If you can't even figure out how to vote, God only knows what the opinions in your vote are based on. It's noise that deservedly gets cleaned up from the system.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7064) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I don't recall saying I didn't like Florida, or even the outcome, but yes I do prefer the person who gets the most votes to take the office even if it takes a while to count them. As long as we're talking about it what happened in 2000 was that half the country thought it was more important to win than to defend democracy and the other half thought it was better to turn their backs on democracy rather than be called "sore loserman". They should all go deface a vet’s grave for all the love of country they showed.

I was really just wanting to know that lawyer's name.

[-] 0 points by earnyours (124) 2 years ago

What drama. It was "Sore Loserman". Gore was the one wanting to deface the Vet's grave, if you want to put it that way. They wanted a selective recount, one of "interpreting" the votes.

Like I said, come up with better ideas and you won't depend so much on incompetent voters. If Gore has been a better candidate, he'd have won his home state. If you can do no better than your typical pool of voters, maybe at least be ready to pass out more cigarettes next time.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7064) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

And about those "ideas" keep whisling in the graveyard because the Dems have won the popular vote in 4 of the last 5 elections, and growing.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7064) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Oh and your post proves my point.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7064) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Just as with the ballots the time to complain about the law was before the election Bush went crying to the Supremes after.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7064) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

They wanted the law of the state of Floride to be followed.

[-] -1 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

The ballot was the same design throughout the state. The variable that caused the problem was that idiots that live in Broward County were too stupid to be allowed to vote.

I always find it funny that votes can be counted over and over, but once the vote works out the way the whiners want it to, the vote counting stops immediatly.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7064) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I'm sorry I didn't catch the lawyer's name there, are you saying that you would like to rehash the 2000 election?