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Forum Post: 3 deaths in the last few days at Occupy is it worth it?

Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 11, 2011, 5:06 p.m. EST by thomasmiller (163)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Are people being oppressed by the United States? Why is it so worth it for people to die for this? Occupy has no goals except to upset the barrel, smoke some weed and bang some hos back in the tents. Please tell me what is worth dieing for?



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[-] 2 points by bugbuster (103) from Yoncalla, OR 12 years ago

The details of the reported deaths don't suggest that they had anything to do with the Occupy movement. Nice try, though.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

As noted above. Thank you for providing them a place to come to die. I have no doubt that the actual death was not assisted by the occupy movement other than providing a space with no liability attached to it.

[-] -1 points by thomasmiller (163) 12 years ago

So if the Occupy camp did not exist they would still be dead today? It wouldnt have changed anything. Right?

[-] 1 points by karai2 (154) 12 years ago

The person in Vermont was a army vet who committed suicide. Just heard the statistic today that 18 veterans commit suicide every day. Very sad. Not related to OWS.

Oakland's homicide rate is one of the highest in the country, Unfortunately. As of 8/1/11 there were already 70 homicides in the city. Up from 54 in the previous year. Very sad. Not caused by Occupy Oakland. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/san-francisco/homicides-spike-san-jose-oakland-163505120.html

[-] 1 points by bugbuster (103) from Yoncalla, OR 12 years ago

One guy is reported to have shot himself in his tent. The other guy died on the site but wasn't involved in the movement. The camps attract some homeless people. And people die. Every day. Wherever they happen to be. I suppose that if you run the numbers, you'll find that two dead on Occupy sites isn't statistically interesting.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Kinda unkind to reduce it all to "statistics" isn't it. Four people died and you think it all about statistics.

If a person died under those conditions in my backyard, I would be concerned, feel some guilt and try to provide a solution to dying in such a place even through my back yard is grass and flowers.

[-] 2 points by karai2 (154) 12 years ago

There's probably someone in your area who is considering suicide or homocide. You should really go out now and try to find them and put a stop to it.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

I am already working with that individual. He has a name, he has a mother, he is real with real problems. We are working through some pretty serious financial problems and others not mentioned.

I know you can NOT put a STOP to it but you can be there and try to make a difference.

[-] 2 points by JonoLith (467) 12 years ago

What is three, or three hundred in the face of the millions of lives America has murdered?

[-] -2 points by KnowledgeableFellow (471) 12 years ago

millions of lives that America has murdered......

For starters, how about you stop lying?

[-] 2 points by JonoLith (467) 12 years ago

Vietnam was murder, Korea was murder, Iraq is murder, Afghanistan is murder. There was no reason for any of these wars beyond the lie that was spoon fed with is "Spreading Democracy". This is no difference then during the Crusades when people were spoon fed the lie "We go to war for God."

Both were for money and power, and nothing more. America murders people.

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 12 years ago

I'm not going to disagree about Vietnam; that was a major blunder on the part of Eisenhower (when he decided that backing a French colonial government was a good idea) and Kennedy and LBJ (for not realizing what was going on and backing us out of there). I would much prefer that we'd been able to settle our affairs in Afghanistan and leave already, and Iraq never should have happened.

Korea, I do disagree on. Given the modern-day difference between North and South Korea I would argue that the results of the action we took there were worth the cost. I also feel like the ICC needs a warrant enforcement mechanism of its own (because otherwise it's usually us getting involved). However, sending a few people in to deal with Joseph Kony is the right thing to do. Sending the military into Darfur with orders to clean up on the Janjaweed and extradite Omar al-Bashir would have been the right thing to do.

You can't simply disallow all conflicts on the grounds that they're ugly. Sometimes we as a nation have to do ugly things because the alternative is worse. Before you ask, I would be more than willing to go to war if asked to; my greatest fear isn't dying (if it's for the right reasons) but to have hung back in a a situation when my interference could have saved someone.

War isn't something we should enter into lightly, and quite honestly Iraq was a PR stunt based on a lie. That said, I also feel like we need to move to a different way of handling our military; perhaps two years of mandated public (including in the military) or community service after high school would be a good idea. That would (in my mind) cut down on unnecessary warfare, given that there would be no exemptions and especially if children of public officials and defense contractors would be on the front lines of any military action we go into; authorizing and/or powering a war becomes a much tougher decision when doing so will point your child at the business end of someone else's AK-47.

[-] 1 points by JonoLith (467) 12 years ago

How about "Make War a Crime"? Outright. Unless they are on our soil, War is Illegal.

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 12 years ago

Not gonna happen. As nice as it would be to have a system through which the ICC could deal with people like al-Bashir and Kony without our involvement I don't know if that's ever going to happen. I would, however, much prefer that we send in small strike teams to deal with them than make full-on war on the country. Besides, it would be far better to leave an option like that on the table than decree that we're going to let atrocities happen because we can't be bothered to get our hands dirty dealing with the perpetrators.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Point well taken. We took out Osama, he is dead, buried, gone. Some may complain about out tactics, our right to intervene, etc but the fact remains, he is dead, buried, gone.

Could we control this small strike approach to all problems - I really don't know.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Let's make it "my soil", I really don't care if they are on your soil, any more that you evidently don't care about any other nations soil - how about Canada's soil or Mexico's soil - that make any difference to you at all??

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Very well put Arod1993. You have much insight and can put your thoughts into words very well and I didn't have to refer to a bunch of links and a slang dictionary to understand what you were saying.

As a taxpayer, I would even be willing to sacrifice to say two years of mandated public service in exchange for one-two years of education at a community college or tech school or other options as deemed appropriate (business loans, etc etc.) That would be payment for something done - not more free handouts.

[-] 0 points by KnowledgeableFellow (471) 12 years ago

So America is the bad guy and everyone else is the good guy?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Yeah, you have proven your point. Korea was murder (we freed the SKoreans and continue to murder their people inmass and we freed NKoreans who are the most peace living people in the world today.

Iraq is murder, was murder and will continue to be murder when we leave. Afghanistan is almost the same picture.

So what is the point you are trying to make other than to shoot yourself in your own foot because that is as far as you can see.

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Well, finally we get to address the abortion issue. I am all the way behind you JonoLith. I also think that abortion is a horrendous thing to do to a living being. More power to you as you point out the millions of lives taken from the innocent in America.

[-] 3 points by JonoLith (467) 12 years ago

I was talking about War.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Please explain what the difference is between abortion and war other than the fact that it is illegal to kill a trapped prisoner in war BUT NOT one trapped in the womb.

[-] 3 points by JonoLith (467) 12 years ago


I'm not debating this on an internet forum with someone who clearly has a chip on their shoulder.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Fine with me - look around you and if you find that perfect person that does not have a "chip on the shoulder" or in their heart or whereever you want to look for it talk to them all day long. Better yet, it you can find someone with the same chip - go out and have a Coke - you no longer have anything to debate.

[-] 2 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

A fetus is a prisoner?

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Excuse me - until the abortionist sets it free.

[-] 3 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

Yep, right down the toilet.

Seriously though, I was a biology major and we had fetuses from about 10 different mammals, humans included, in a display case in a lab. Everyone was identical. You could not tell a human fetus from that of a pig or a dog. A fetus is not a human, it is a fetus.

[-] -2 points by KnowledgeableFellow (471) 12 years ago

Boy, that was a stupid remark.....You are saying all fetuses are the same, regardless of it being human or another animal? You flunked that class, didn't you.

[-] 3 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

No I aced it just like all the others. And they aren't the same, they just look the same because they aren't really differentiated yet.

[-] -1 points by YRUSoStupid (26) 12 years ago

Depends on how closely you look, stupid!

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

Very, very, very few people could tell them apart.

[-] -2 points by KnowledgeableFellow (471) 12 years ago

What the hell does looks have to do with it? That's just stupid to say what you did.

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

I bet that the mother, whether human, pig or dog, could.

[-] 3 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

A human female, without any medical training, cannot tell the difference between a human fetus and that of any other comparable sized mammal. Whether it came out of her or otherwise.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

And your studies that support this are? And could you please define the period of time that this applies to a fetus not being an identifiable blob of either human, pig or dog matter?

[-] -2 points by KnowledgeableFellow (471) 12 years ago

America = Bad, huh?

[-] 1 points by technoviking (484) 12 years ago

discouraging abortion is creating an excess amount of births among low-income families, creating excessive numbers of low-skill workers, which lowers the wages that they receive.

[-] 2 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

Excellent! More slaves to serve the corporate-financial complex. More people to leverage as assets. More optionless military recruits to be sacrificed in service to the military-industrial-congressional-complex.

[-] 2 points by Frizzle (520) 12 years ago

Do you have any idea's how many people die a day. And how many of those deaths are directly related to the system we are in today? Any death or suffering is bad. But keep it in perspective please. ty

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

NO, site a few credible sources, please.

[-] 2 points by dreamingforward (394) from Gothenburg, NE 12 years ago

Figure it out, we're too busy fixing your broken system that would sail itself right off the cliff if it was left up to itself.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Thanks for the free repair job on our self propelled, broken system.

If we can ever return the favor, please ask - we will be protesting in a park somewhere.

[-] 1 points by dreamingforward (394) from Gothenburg, NE 12 years ago

(Assuming you're against the occupy movement): Your "self-propelled" system has been spending all the stored solar capital (in the form of oil/coal) like some stupid playboy who got a rich inheritance, and would make the world a depleted empty wasteland, left to its own devices, if it weren't for something, SOMEONE, pushing back, you fool.

Think about the stupidity of your system: consume 1 billion years of stored capital (as if it were income, regenerating itself) in the space of 200 years without any means, ANY THOUGHT, to regenerate it. You are an idiot.

Wait, but maybe you're thinking that you can spend the 15 billion years of stored matter-energy in the form of NUCLEAR fuel and that will solve your problem, right? RIGHT?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Man, excuse me for waking you up. Do you get up this grouchy every day.

You first assumption is WRONG. I am neutral until I find out what all the facts are. So far, no amount of asking, pleading, ridiculing or any of several other means has produced anything of substance to convince me one way or the other.

I may be a fool and an idiot, but not a sucker. I got an edukashion and a pretty good one at that.

I fully realize that coal and oil are not renewable energy sources. Notice that I did not include GAS - if you don't know the reason for that choice - lean a little closer - I have a few names to share too.

If there is another 1 billion years of stored capital for the next 100 years or even 200 years - what is your overriding concern. Afraid that we will just come to a complete screeching stop as a world? What kind of oil do you use in your vehicle? Is your roof covered with solar panels, do you have a wind generator in your backyard, you live in a pretty arid area-recycle your waste water-and I don't mean a pipe out the back door from the washing machine??

I am trying to follow your reasoning and to keep up with the latest in renewable energy development. I have asked an engineer at a large power plant about replacing the one unit with wind power - that would be 6,000 windmills running 24hrs/day. I am sure Santa Fe wouldn't mind having this air field in their back yards.

And then I reread your post. Sorry if I got carried away there. You really are promoting Oil-Coal use right - just in a more limited way rather than our "self-propelled" system. Nuclear and other means are a no-no.

Does this mean you are against ethanol too. I sure hope so. I don't think you will in all of history find a nation that has "burned its' food to provide for its transportation" and in the process used more oil-coal than it produced in energy. Amazing what a fool and idiot we can be sometimes.

[-] 1 points by TheKing (93) 12 years ago

These are patriots that died for their country!

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 12 years ago


Are people being oppressed by the United States?

end quote

People are being oppressed by the repelican party when they hold up FEMA relief for storm damage all in the name of scoring political points.

People are being oppressed by the repelican party when they hold up heating assistance all in the name of scoring political points.

And by the way - did you know that in Russia one response to political dissidence has been confinement to mental institutions?

Why don't you chew on this:

More is Less . .

There is a civil war,

it lies unacknowledged under lies. . .

In the depths of madness

the sane are lurking terrified. . .

The dead lie all around, crowded

in a cultivated field of hypocrisy. . .

How can such a hollow emptiness

be so full of emptiness . . . . .

Science is our god, they are its priests,

I am a heretic and this, heresy. . .

In the institutions you can't tell the difference

between the politicals and the insane;

everyone babbles the same refrain:

`they are watching.' . .

The dead will remember the times that they died

until the day that you kill them. . .

The Nuremberg Code:

Ten principles, two pages - ultimately more words

become less,

moral and principle cease.
. .

© 2001

d. Winter


[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 12 years ago

man, this cms can really fuck up a perfectly good poem.











[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

If you have to demonize a people (repelican) first by imposing your own ideals, prejudices, etc, don't expect me to give any validity to anything you say about them or for that matter, anything else you have to say.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 12 years ago

What? Do you think I care if I do not receive validation from you?

I really don't.

You could chew on this if you like - or not:



Upon the Question of Default of Our National Debt

July 6th, 2011


[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

ZenDog - somehow I feel that real down deep in the depths of your heart you do want to receive validation - if not from me - then someone else out in this great electronic world of the internet. Please people, listen to this urgent cry for help for ZenDog. Please tell him that everything will be OK, his poetry is great and that you really do love him AND if you can find a good cms repairman please send them immediately - this is urgent

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 12 years ago

Who has died?

Where did they die?

How did they die?

[-] 1 points by Lmurguia7 (57) 12 years ago

Transformation !

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 12 years ago

I would gladly die to restore the balance of power to the broken, hopeless, homeless, "loosers", of this world. They are my human family. And I love my family (despite their sometimes annoying faults and even their sins).

But the fact is, we have had 1 unrelated drug-murder in one of the most dangerous cities in the United States (Oakland) pinned on the movement, one suicide (which if you know anything about the psychopathology of suicide was bound to happen whether the person was at OWS or not) and a couple men in poor physical health who apparently passed of natural causes. There have been ZERO "OWS-related" or "OWS-caused" deaths.

But the facts don't matter to the Corporate smear machine.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

It is very commendable that you provided them all a place to die. We will all need that someday won't we. You do realize that you could charge for your service, and open a real office just across the street. Welcome to the corporate world.

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 12 years ago

Huh? you aren't speaking coherent English, troll.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

So far, I understand my English, it is yours that I am not with. What the hell is a "troll" in your language.

I try not to call names unless I know what they mean. Please explain or are you just another "digess billagonna" (not the correct spelling but it comes for an originally unwritten language).

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 12 years ago


[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Just what I said.

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 12 years ago

either speak coherently, or don't waste your time.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

My time is up. Will waste no more.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

everyone dies

[-] 0 points by stevo (314) 12 years ago

You mean the deaths? Yes..it's worth it. I'm all in favor of more.

[-] 0 points by steven2002 (363) 12 years ago

We all must sacrifice for the greater good. If some of us need to give up our lives to achieve our goals, so be it.

[-] -1 points by gr57 (457) 12 years ago

how and where did they die?