Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr

Forum Post: Imagine for a moment...

Posted 10 years ago on Dec. 31, 2011, noon EST by JoeTheFarmer (2654)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Imagine for a moment that somewhere in the middle of Texas there was a large foreign military base, say Chinese or Russian.

Imagine that thousands of armed foreign troops were constantly patrolling American streets in military vehicles.

Imagine they were here under the auspices of "keeping us safe" or "promoting democracy" or "protecting their strategic interests."

Imagine that they operated outside of US law, and that the Constitution did not apply to them.

Imagine that every now and then they made mistakes or acted on bad information and accidentally killed or terrorized innocent Americans, including women and children, most of the time with little to no repercussions or consequences.

Imagine that they set up checkpoints on our soil and routinely searched and ransacked entire neighborhoods of homes.

Imagine if Americans were fearful of these foreign troops, and overwhelmingly thought America would be better off without their presence.

Imagine if some Americans were so angry about them being in Texas that they actually joined together to fight them off, in defense of our soil and sovereignty, because leadership in government refused or were unable to do so.

Imagine that those Americans were labeled terrorists or insurgents for their defensive actions, and routinely killed, or captured and tortured by the foreign troops on our land.

Imagine that the occupiers' attitude was that if they just killed enough Americans, the resistance would stop, but instead, for every American killed, ten more would take up arms against them, resulting in perpetual bloodshed.

Imagine if most of the citizens of the foreign land also wanted these troops to return home. Imagine if they elected a leader who promised to bring them home and put an end to this horror.

Imagine if that leader changed his mind once he took office.

The reality is that our military presence on foreign soil is as offensive to the people that live there as armed Chinese troops would be if they were stationed in Texas. We would not stand for it here, but we have had a globe-straddling empire and a very intrusive foreign policy for decades that incites a lot of hatred and resentment towards us. According to our own CIA, our meddling in the Middle East was the prime motivation for the horrific attacks on 9/11. But instead of re-evaluating our foreign policy, we have simply escalated it. We had a right to go after those responsible for 9/11, to be sure, but why do so many Americans feel as if we have a right to a military presence in some 160 countries when we wouldn't stand for even one foreign base on our soil, for any reason? These are not embassies, mind you, these are military installations. The new administration is not materially changing anything about this. Shuffling troops around and playing with semantics does not accomplish the goals of the American people, who simply want our men and women to come home. 50,000 troops left behind in Iraq is not conducive to peace any more than 50,000 Russian soldiers would be in the United States. Shutting down military bases and ceasing to deal with other nations with threats and violence is not isolationism. It is the opposite. Opening ourselves up to friendship, honest trade and diplomacy is the foreign policy of peace and prosperity. It is the only foreign policy that will not bankrupt us in short order, as our current actions most definitely will. I share the disappointment of the American people in the foreign policy rhetoric coming from the administration. The sad thing is, our foreign policy WILL change eventually, as Rome's did, when all budgetary and monetary tricks to fund it are exhausted.



Read the Rules


[-] 3 points by WildMan (27) 10 years ago

Our military policies are not defensive and actually create enemies and increase our vulnerability.

[-] 0 points by wellhungjury (296) 10 years ago

Imagine if our President killed 100,000 people based on their race or religion, by using WMD. That some of those people were your family. Imagine if our President, invaded a protected country of China's. Imagine if you our President lied, insinuated and manipulated facts to create the illusion of having WMD's.

The point....is that if you told the whole story then I would relate to your imagination much better. I see your point, but do not ignore the points that go against your empathy.

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 10 years ago

What if our foreign policy of the past century is deeply flawed and has not served our national security interests?

What if we wake up one day and realize that the terrorist threat is a predictable consequence of our meddling in the affairs of others and has nothing to do with us being free and prosperous?

What if propping up oppressive regimes in the Middle East endangers both the United States and Israel?

What if occupying countries like Iraq and Afghanistan and bombing Pakistan is directly related to the hatred directed toward us?

What if some day it dawns on us that losing over 5,000 American military personnel in the Middle East since 9/11 is not a fair trade off for the loss of nearly 3,000 American citizens no matter how many Iraqi, Pakistani, or Afghan people are killed or displaced?

What if we finally decide that torture even if called “enhanced interrogation technique” is self destructive and produces no useful information and that contracting it out to a third world nation is just as evil?

What if it is finally realized that war and military spending is always destructive to the economy?

What if all war time spending is paid for through the deceitful and evil process of inflating and borrowing?

What if we finally see that war time conditions always undermine personal liberty?

What if conservatives who preach small government wake up and realize that our interventionist foreign policy provides the greatest incentive to expand the government?

What if people understood once again that their only logical position is to reject military intervention and managing an empire throughout the world?

What if the American people woke up and understood that the official reasons for going to war are almost always based on lies and promoted by war propaganda in order to serve special interests?

What if we as a nation came to realize that the quest for empire eventually destroys all great nations?

What if the American people learn the truth that our foreign policy has nothing to do with national security and that it never changes from one administration to the next?

What if war and preparation for war is a racket serving the special interests?

What if diplomacy is found to be superior to bombs and bribes in protecting America?

What happens if my concerns are completely unfounded? Nothing.

But what happens if my concerns are justified and ignored? Nothing good.”

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 10 years ago

Who killed 100,000 people based on their religion?

[-] 1 points by wellhungjury (296) 10 years ago

This guy named Saddam Hussein. Ever heard of him? Mass genocide. The grave sites were found. Now the argument could be that it was Muslim vs Muslim but they were different factions. Never the less, tell all of the story. I still think that you have valid points to share. I have placed myself in those shoes myself and do not blame their opposition. However, Saddam did what he did as well and we should acknowledge it. I am tired. Good night and have a great new year.

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 10 years ago

I agree he was bad however "The whole story" is the mass genocide took place in 1987. If that was our motive we did we wait 15 years to take him out in 2003? On top of that we are still there 8 years later. Even after the supposed "last troops" come home we will still have over 16,000 there. The largest embassy on the planet in the heart of Baghdad to remind them of our occupation.

Again, let's not pretend that is why we went into Iraq. If that were true then why would we do nothing about the 800,000 innocent people killed in Rwanda? Why do we do nothing about the 2 million killed in Darfur since 2004 or the 2.7 million Darfuris currently in prison camps? Oh wait.... the oil is in Iraq...

[-] 1 points by wellhungjury (296) 10 years ago

You made one sided points playing the "devils advocate" on how we would feel if a foreign power was on our soil. I get it. We would not be happy either. But our leaders were hardly what Saddam was to his people. We could tit for tat all night, fact remains he was a really bad guy to his own people and that is just not the case here in the states, no matter how much we want to be victims. Why, are we there, yeah I get it...resources. Then state as such in your argument. Commenting on how we are such bad people and that there was absolutely no good that came out of the removal of Saddam is just not the case. The world is never that clean, clear and cut. Anyway, I just do not believe that you represented the situation in a complete and true way. Your points were obviously one sided. I doubt you and I will see eye to eye on this so I concede. We are awful people and everyone else is good. Check.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 10 years ago

First, Never was it said that we are bad people. It said our policies are flawed.

We created and supported Saddam, we create and supported Bin Laden, we created and supported Mubarak.

After all the bombing and tanks and tens (perhaps hundreds) of thousands civilians killed in Afghanistan and Iraq we sent in a small SEAL team and took Bin Laden out in Pakistan!

And to say we do it because of the suffering he caused makes little since since he killed thousands and in Darfur over 2 million have been killed and 2.5 million are in concentration camps as we debate this.

Americans are good people however our foreign policies of creating dictators and then taking them out with tomahawks, tanks, and bombs is flawed.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

George W. Bush.

That's a low estimate.

[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

You have a rather ugly imagination.

Imagine one thing.

Imagine our military, capable of handling all it's affairs, by itself.

No contracts to Halliburton, or any other corporate entity, other than supply the materials.

It's supposed to be that way.

It used to be that way..

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 10 years ago

I am not sure you got the point. If you read to the end you would see it is actually a reality not imagination. Did you read the entire thing?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

I got your point.

Did you get mine?