Federal Reserve Global Phonecast
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 9, 2011, 2:19 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt
At 7PM EST this evening, November 9th, occupiers around the globe are invited to call +1 (712) 432-9945 and listen to a moderated discussion with Dr. David Korten and #ows occupier, Harrison Schultz. Dr. Korten will speak to the Federal Reserve's role in the corrupt and dysfunctional systems of financial malfeasance that caused the global depression and discuss alternative systems to serve the American people. Throughout the discussion listeners will be invited to ask Dr. Korten questions via the hashtag #askFed on Twitter
"Anti-Fed" sentiment runs deep in the Occupy movement. "The Federal Reserve has acted as an enabler of the economic injustice that affects everyday people in this country and around the world. It's time that everyone learns about the anti-democratic, pro-1% nature of the Fed, and how it works towards redistributing wealth upwards" said Amelia Clark, 20, from Washington DC. "The actions of the Fed in bailing out big banks has stymied the economic growth of America and the world. The Fed has caused millions to lose their jobs while fatcat CEOs see their bonuses grow by millions. The Fed only cares about billionares and their jobs," said Patrick Bruner, 23, from Brooklyn.
Dr. David C. Korten is the author, most recently, of "Agenda for a New Economy: From Phantom Wealth to Real Wealth", and "The Great Turning: From Empire to Earth Community." His previous books include the international best-seller "When Corporations Rule the World;" and "The Post-Corporate World: Life after Capitalism."
"How to Liberate America from Wall Street Rule" a report from the The New Economy Working Group authored by Dr. Korten, can be downloaded free of charge by clicking the preceding link.
Dr. Korten is board chair of YES! Magazine; a board member of the Business Alliance for Local Living Economies (BALLE); co-chair of the New Economy Working Group, founded in late 2008 with the Institute for Policy Studies; founder and president of the People-Centered Development Forum; a founding associate of the International Forum on Globalization; and a member of the Social Ventures Network, and the Club of Rome. He holds MBA and Ph.D. degrees from the Stanford Business School, has thirty years experience as a development professional in Asia, Africa, and Latin America and has served as a Harvard Business School professor, a captain in the US Air Force, a Ford Foundation Project Specialist, and a regional adviser to the US Agency for International Development.
Harrison Schultz is a sociologist and anarchist occupier at #occupywallstreet
Horrible creature that Fed. Forced inflation keeps the poor poor and forces the middle class to place their savings at market risk just to have the same buying power next year as they do this year.
They keep it hidden since you have the same dollars, you might even get a 1% raise (but with 3% inflation you just lost 2% of your earnings). People don't want to talk about it because we've been told by the media and culture that "economics is boring". IT IS YOUR MONEY!
We Want God's Reserve, Not Federal Reserve. We are the 99%
Sorry but you are mistaken. Inflation tends to benefit the poor and the indebted. Deflation is the enemy of the poor and the real risk we currently face.
I am not mistaken. You're assuming that the causality from good economy to natural market inflation can be reversed into being forced inflation leads to good economy. Inflation may be good for specific individual's with debt however its bad for everyone else - and literally bad for everyone in the long run.
Planned inflation sends signals about the demand for capitol by creating false interest rates. This causes those who see this to make bad planning decisions without the capital being available that low interest rates would normally signal. This causes a higher demand to be expected and a feeding frenzy of sorts until the lack of expected capital is realized and we get a crash from the fake boom.
We Want God's Reserve, Not Federal Reserve. We are the 99%
I want the interest rate to be set not by the Federal Reserve or any human planning but by the results of human action in the aggregate of society. It is and always should be an organically decided rate.
I don't disagree that neither monetary or fiscal policy are the be all end all of a sound economy. But mild inflation does tend to benefit the indebted. It also tends to reduce the trade imbalance.
This true if and only if the inflation is the result of real economic growth and the resultant increase in the need for capital which causes the money supply to increase. This isn't what we have so I can't find it to be true.
While inflation by any cause will lower the marginal rate of labor needed to pay off the debt the net negatives of non-market derived inflation vastly outweigh that lone benefit. The same is true for trade imbalances - not that we have to really worry about those things as fundamentally what we are doing is giving electronic 1's and 0's for real assets. (Shhh, don't tell the rest of the world - they are still buying it).
The trade imbalance is unsustainable. The manufacturing process creates real wealth which is what fiat money theoretically represents. The debt does not need to be "paid off".It needs to kept in balance with the productivity of the nation.
It matters little at this point if the debt needs to be paid off as it cannot be. Totally all of our existing debt and future obligations we are over 100 trillion in the whole. No nation can survive being leveraged 7:1 like that (in good years).
The imbalance only matters until we can no longer support a military large enough in the Middle East to keep our rivals out while at the same time intimidating OPEC to accept dollars in trade for oil. Once that stops no one will trade in dollars so no one will trade with the US at all.
End the Fed!
Excellent...now we're getting somewhere...look to the origin of the FED and central banks in general...a great book on the subject is G. Edward Griffin's Creature From Jekyll Island...his brief video on the subject can be found here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6507136891691870450
Review from Amazon:
"Think you know anything about the dollar bills in your wallet? Think you know who runs this country? Think that we live in a "free market" economy? Think again.
Griffin piles up facts and analyzes them with relentless, cold logic. The picture he paints isn't pretty. The Federal Reserve System is a legal cartel expressly designed to create riskless profits for member banks, while simultaneously turning our entire financial system into the legal and moral equivalent of a Las Vegas casino. Yeah, you might get lucky for a while, but the house will always win. Our monetary system is a pyramid scheme that only functions as long as debt is being created at an accelerating rate.
This all sounds crazy, but Griffin has the facts to back it up. The challenging part about Griffin's arguments is that he explicitly states that the foundation and perpetuation of the Federal Reserve System was a conspiracy. Whenever the "C"-word is mentioned, it is an unfortunate truth that many people get turned off. But as Griffith himself says, if a group of people, operating in secret, create a system that explicitly benefits themselves at the expense of others, what else can you call it but conspiracy? Heck, I guess you could call it a "peanut" or a "canteloupe" but it would still add up to the same thing--a system expressly designed to reward failure and punish diligence and honesty. Kinda explains all the crookedness and incompetence behind all the wall street and corporate shenanigans of the last decade, doesn't it?
And if you keep an open mind and pay close attention to his arguments, you'll see that the best place to hide a conspiracy is in plain sight.
If you care about free markets, and your constitutional rights, you will read this book today."
"central bank liquidity swaps" - that means that the Bank of England, Bank of Canada, or let's say the European Central Bank - can borrow BILLIONS of US Dollars at an incredibly low interest rate, like 1.08% for example. Try getting a rate like that at your local bank. Why should a foreign country's central bank get a better rate from the Fed than a US citizen?
More importantly, where is this money "invested."
Support The National Emergency Employment Defense Act of 2011
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-2990
Previous elections nationwide have been met with weak turnouts for years. With almost half of the voting-age population not even voting as such was the turnout in the 2008 presidential election.
I challenge you, the 99%, to Occupy Voting Booths.
If your goal is "returning the US back into the hands of its individual citizens", make sure the people that the 99% is voting into office isn't against those things. Otherwise, things get kind of counter-productive.
Occupy Voting Booths! Get organized and get the right people into office.
Please see mytimetovote.com for a breakdown of important election dates and other important information.
If you want to take back our country, take back our government!
What if the candidates put up are just as corrupt as those sitting in Congress, even if the 99% vote this will not change anything.
What if the 99% wish certain reforms, then voting for a person means a vote in favour of the reform; hence the reforms will be enforced in the voting booth and will be ready to be signed when the government is sworn in.
Politicans will be forced to keep their promises and there will be a speedy implementation of reform, no chance for a congress deadlock; if the incumbent members obstruct this reform, their seats are up for grabs based upon the same principle of this new voting system.
Then only will Occupy Voting Booths by the 99% be effective and will motivate the voter by letting him/her know that their vote counts and their vote will ensure reform.
Furthermore, the system must be reformed
1) to ensure that candidates have a fixed maximum term in office.
2) that money should not be wasted in campaigning, that a fixed and equal amount of money be available for campaigning this will ensure that money does not buy votes, and there is democracy not plutocracy.
3) the campaign must make its accounts transparent to the public.
There is real hope that money can be got out of politics.
We Want God's Reserve, Not Federal Reserve. We are the 99%
Chomsky for president . He has proven to be a genius in everything he has tried .
If you want to take back our country, take back our government!
The 99% should nominate a non-partisan presidential candidate and use the tools of the system to beat it. The same should be done for all elected federal and state jobs.
Right, because its so easy to get people into office! And once they get there its so simple to hold them accountable and if they are accountable, its so simple to ensure that ALL reps are accountable...and even when they are accountable to the people, as was the case with the TARP funds allocation, OUR REPS SHOOT US DOWN IN FAVOR OF THE BANKS!!! It's the papered aristocracy and it has been a rightfully suspect force since the beginning of the U.S.
Please, please, please --
Start a GROUP here and call it: Occupy Voting Booths.
That got to be OCCUPY VOTER REGISTRATION. Please send me a message. We have a connection with SCLC Southern Christian Leadership Conference (Dr. King's folks) that relates to Occupy Atlanta. They run voter registration efforts nationwide.
THAT'S DONE, TOO. THEM CARD TABLES AND NIFTY REGISTRAR PEOPLE REGISTERING VOTERS WILL PISS-OFF THE WE-WANT-LOW-TURNOUT POLITICIANS.
SCLC know what they're doing.
OH, YEAH.
We Want God's Reserve, Not Federal Reserve. We are the 99%
EXCEPT.. the popular vote does not elect the President--the the electoral college does. You need to be active in your local political parties and vote for your delegates and chairmen
This is actually superior to a direct democracy and the popular vote because the votes all have faces and names attached to them and are done in public Thus voter fraud is minimized and a trail of verifiable and accountable supporters is created each election.
Revolution is from the grass roots up, political or otherwise.
AGREED! We ALL must vote out the incumbents that refuse to work for the 99%! We must also (and this is the hard part) replace them with politicians that will.
what needs to be done (besides ending the FED) is not just voting but reforming the flawed voting system, which is vote once for one prospect.
a "ranked voting system" for president will allow you to vote for the person you really want to vote in and also vote for the lesser of two evils. who is going to vote for the person that the polls say is going to lose.... so instead they don't vote for them and vote for their maybe second choice cause he actually has a chance of winning...
We Want God's Reserve, Not Federal Reserve. We are the 99%
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/sleight_of_hand_uy96iNSbW99JHMRnbxgvfL
Fed backs Bank of America's 55 TRILLION in DERIVATIVES!
I have extrapolated this from three recent NPR news casts. I believe that the 99% Occupy Movement should capitalize on this recipe of three existing wrongs that appear to be among (if not) "the" major contributors to this tragedy that we are all protesting:
Imagine (1) a transparent Congress who is not allowed to withhold the names of companies who financially support their campaigns, while (2) abolishing the 501c4 non-profit "campaign contribution" organization tax code loopholes (that they hide their crime behind,) and (3) repeal Corporate Person-hood, and we may have America back, at least out of the major clutches of Corporations who Bribe congress in hidden ways. These are the three legislated policies that formulated this disaster.... It's called "conspiracy," and conspiracy is illegal in this country.
I believe that if you investigate these extrapolations, you will have a story that needs to go viral. — Reform Congress = Reform the 1%!!
Hey,... the 99% Occupation Movement is constantly being criticized for not having a goal and set of requirements. Why not these three??
I am sending this out everywhere, even the White House. Please pass it on. I think NPR has given us clues.
Jaime Ordonez Victoria
I saw Dr. David Korten speak about the end of fossil fuels. Frankly, I was not impressed with his knowledge or insight and it seems that he aims to use his Ph.D. credentials to sell books on hot topics. I am ignorant of his background, but I prefer Dean Baker, Paul Krugman and that other one whose name I cannot recall, from Columbia? If Dr. Korten offered valuable info, great!
Today the corporations and monied run our country. There is a need for a 28th Amendment to our Constitution to restore rights to we the people. 1. Congress will no longer accept campaign monies from any corporation or lobbyist group, no exceptions 2 Upon leaving public service, no former member of Congress shall be employed as a lobbyist in any form.
It's about damn time people are starting to wake up to what the Federal (what a joke) Reserve Bank is doing to the world. I agree, it's time to dethrone the tyrants and let them starve to death. That would be a fitting death for the scumbags. However that will not happen, but we could at least hold them accountable for the actions they have performed. i.e. Treason, theft, unjust business practices, and more, against the people of not just the United States but the entire world. When I say hold them accountable I mean physically go in there en mass and remove them by force, the police and our government aren't going to do that, we the people need to not just occupy the FED, but actually go in there and take those M*F** out of power once and for all. Then as a side note send the Queen of England a note that says, "Nice try but we took our country back"
When I first started my research on exactly what the FED is and just what it was pulling over our eye's I was appalled at how anyone with half a brain could sit back and watch as these banksters just usurped power right out from under our noses. Thanks a lot technology! (for making us enept and mind numb)
When are people going to wake up and realize that no matter who we "vote" in to office (of any kind), another cruel joke, that the people we elect are not there for us. We gave up our power for the people, by the people long ago, about 100 years ago. On that miserable day when the creation of the FED was railroaded right on through congress with out a single American citizen ever being told anything about it, except save for a minor newspaper article. Since then they have continued to manipulate not just the economy but our very lives all for sheer greed and an unquenchable thirst for power and enslavement of mankind.
How can you not get mad about this, how can you just sit there brain dead and think lala land thoughts about a better tomorrow, that will never come? A vegetative population is much easier to control and destroy, just throw in a little divide and conquer and your well on your way to total world domination.
The main problem related to the monetary system is the fact that money is created through debt. Unfortunately the document http://www.neweconomyworkinggroup.org/sites/default/files/LiberateAmericaONLINE.pdf does not explain this fact and misleads the reader in subtle directions like rotation between borrower and lender roles.
The main problem related to the monetary system is the fact that money is created through debt. Unfortunately the document http://www.neweconomyworkinggroup.org/sites/default/files/LiberateAmericaONLINE.pdf does not explain this fact and misleads the reader in subtle directions like rotation between borrower and lender roles.
The main problem related to the monetary system is the fact that money is created through debt. Unfortunately the document http://www.neweconomyworkinggroup.org/sites/default/files/LiberateAmericaONLINE.pdf does not explain this fact and misleads the reader in subtle directions like rotation between borrower and lender roles.
Amsel Rothschilds said "Let me issue and control a Nation's money and I care not who makes its laws".
I agree with knigitz. A democratic society allows for change, if one wants to see these changes it will require organization of the masses along with active participation with respect to following your district's senator and their actions. Take back your government then you take back your currency. If the average american lives a lifestyle of living out side of their financial means, it's not entirely the 1%'s fault.
I have been telling you guys for months we need an Official National Credit Union. Only Citizens who are natural persons will be permitted to be part owner and have an account. No corporate accounts.
bullet voting for elections, and allowing multiple slates of candidates, would break the iron grip of control the elites, the corporations, the monied classes, the landlords, the employers, the government bureaucrats, and their politicians and political parties have on our lives, our bodies, our banks, our tax dollars, and our polities; Local, State, and National.
We need a stronger Fed not a weaker one. The Fed knew we were in a credit bubble and that there was too much risk in the financial system. But their only tool was to raise interest rates substantially above the inflation rate causing the bubble to burst before it got even bigger. The Fed needs to take control of deposit insurance (Banks, S&L, and Credit Unions). I will call them all banks. The Fed can then increase bank deposit insurance rates when a bubble approaches rather than raising interest rates on good borrowers. When banks use our deposits to buy risky assets they put our deposits at risk. In addition to paying insurance rates on their deposits banks need to pay risk premiums on all their risky assets. The Fed needs to be free to define anything as a risky bank asset because the banks keep coming up with new instruments to avoid anything named in legislation or fixed bank regulations. The additional deposit insurance premiums will help pay for bank failures without a taxpayer bailout.
I'm just skeptical about ending the Fed because the John Birch Society supports it. But I might be into it, yet uncertain.
If you have any questions about the Fed and how its policies server the 1% at the expense of the 99% I'll be happy to talk to you about it here or in email.
I understand how it is bad, I'm just uncertain if it should be the first priority. Ending corporate personhood seems more important to do first. I think ending the fed maybe good, but it seems very destabilizing. And I question those who support it on their motives in pushing it first and so religiously. Are they trying to create chaos first and foremost to advance another agenda, or are they trying to create an order that is more fair and stable? I'm for ending it, but I question how anti-Fed folks try and convert people with an almost religious zeal. Why should it be the first step in this movement? I have faith this movement will last longer then tomorrow.
Pushing it first is the key to stopping the cycle of funding that politicians and corrupt businesses use to keep their activities hushed. If we stop this we take a huge step into both stopping the cycle of corruption but also preventing the businesses from using public funds against our future efforts. It would cost the corporations their own funds instead of public monies awarded them because the ease of cheap money would be ended and the politicians would have to increase taxes to give money out and that causes push back.
It will also nip in the bud the continuation of the powers that be following flawed ideas that are making the economic situation worse. We need interest rates to be an actual useful input into business and private decisions.
http://notetoanon.com/2011/11/11/you-me-we-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-loved-leaderlessness/
I believe the problems are complex three pronged issues ,I will focus on the two immediate no. 1 being our political system, I don't believe it is in any way fair, and is a far cry from it's original intent. First these elected officials should not be making this a career , there should be no pensions ,medical,large incomes etc.etc.etc. it should be for people that do not profit in any way from representing our people and most definitely on a limited basis. No special interest of any kind, and a vote is a vote period it should count. There should be no large amounts of money or any other favors,so if any person representing us is caught doing wrong they should be prosecuted in a court of law or asked to leave.I like the idea if a person runs on a platform or promise that they get elected on it should be implemented immediately at least locally, Nationally is a different issue but if a president gets elected on his plans they should be adopted immediately. We also need to open up our process and eliminate Democrats and Republicans no party's just people running on their own merits. Basically I am saying the two party system can never work because it will always be a house divided .also we need to look at appointing judges differently and the judge or judges that go against the constitution in any way by a ridiculous interpretation of our constitution or laws needs to be removed . 2nd Economically we really do need the removal of the Federal Reserve Bank that is the albatross around our neck ,we can print our own money free of interest and excuse me why do we lend to them at a ridiculously low interest rate and let them run our system get the cancer out of this country, they are for their own interests and greedy you notice the banks got bailed out not us that was the plan all along, if they had given each American what he or she now owes children included we could have all payed off our mortgages loans of all kinds and that would have put the banks in great positions because all the money would have come back to them we all would be in great shape and buying and they would be wanting to lending like before , but they are me first never mind that it was their greed and crooked dealings that is to blame for all this and not one is being held accountable as usual,some system it is totally against the 99% BUT WE ALL KNOW THIS!!!
We Want God's Reserve, Not Federal Reserve. We are the 99%
Great work! The Federal Reserve is what allows the Government to bail out the banks and Wall Street, is what allows the Government to fight multiple Wars, and is what allows the Government to bill it to the People in the form of inflation.
We want GOD's reserve, Not Federal Reserve. We are the 99%
Hello brothers and sisters, Wanted to say hi and thanks to all that are stepping up and getting involved to try and find clarity, sanity and to finish off the remaining apathy in this country. I have been a Ron Lawl supporter since 07 and give him a lot of credit for sparking a lot of curiosity and activism in this country and around the world. Cheers to healthy discussion, peaceful protest, and the future.
You have done an excellent job of research and writing. veste moncler http://www.vestefr.com/moncler-veste-homme-c-92.htm
Zeitgeistmovie.com explains how and why the Federal Reserve was created and what it has done for the 1% against the 99%. The Federal Reserve must be owned by public money, by US citizens, not by a few rich people. That is not socialism, that is common sense. What is socialism is to socialize the loss and privitize the profits.
"If you have an entity that can print, actually manufacture as much money as it wants, and you have legal tender laws… now the government is the master, and the people are the servants." http://www.dailyiowan.com/2011/10/11/Metro/25360.html
Very good interview. I disagree with Korten's assessment on the failings of the gold standard because what he really described was the failings of fractional reserve banking. I find it a bit odd that he strongly advocated for decentralization at the same time offering another central banking authority for money supply. In a decentralized setup, which I agree with, simply let the people and their communities decide what form of money they choose to trust. http://vimeo.com/22824400
Word! The root cause is the Fed.
"Permit me to issue and control the money of the nation and I care not who makes its laws." — Mayer Amschel Rothschild
The end of the sentence would be... because if I can control the money I can control those who make its laws, and I can control laws, and the media, and everything.
Have any of you checked out the good old boy clubs this man is apart of especially the club of Roam etc. I see a wolf in sheep's clothing ,if it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck it's a duck , take you're degrees and clubs and go away
Fantastic call, please give us more opportunities to participate in events like this. Dr. Korten rocks!
The solutions are on the Center for Progressive Economics' website, www.progressive-economics.com, and involve the complete elimination of fractional reserve banking. See the Monetary Reform section on the side tab.
We've been trying to post about this on the main page, but the "post" button seems to not be working. Does anyone know of a way to fix this?
People need to know what "fractional reserve banking" means first. There are probably legitimate use for it, but it's obviously been horribly abused to the detriment of the 99%, i.e. inflation.
We Want God's Reserve, Not Federal Reserve. We are the 99%
The solutions are on the Center for Progressive Economics' website, www.progressive-economics.com, and involve the complete elimination of fractional reserve banking. See the Monetary Reform section on the side tab.
We've been trying to post about this on the main page, but the "post" button seems to not be working. Does anyone know of a way to fix this?
I good website pertaining to tonights discussion might be occupythedebt.com. It seems to spell out how the banking system is used to leaverage our own money to the benefit of the 1%. It also profers a couple of possible solutions to the crisis we are facing.
"Harrison Schultz is a sociologist and anarchist occupier"
"The Post-Corporate World: Life after Capitalism"
"David will speak to the Federal Reserve as part of the current corrupt and dysfunctional system of financial institutions and discuss an alternative system that would serve the American people"
Tell me again that this movement isn't aimed toward smashing capitalism and our entire economic system...
and I'll call you a liar to your face.
What the hell is going on?!
Because "capitalism" was already "smashed" by the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 and the breakdown of Bretton-Woods in 1971. Capital cannot be printed. Laissez-faire free markets cannot be planned by a central banking soviet. The system we have now is definitely broken, but what we have is not "free market capitalism." What's going on is people are starting to understand the root cause of the correctly observed economic injustices. http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-september-18-2007/alan-greenspan
For the record, I disagree with the use of the term "anarchist" in this post, mainly because it's a widely misunderstood term by people who are given to knee jerk reactions such as yourself, and at this stage I think it's important for OWS to appeal to as wide an audience as possible.
As to your other concerns, this movement is very diverse, so some will undoubtedly think we need to get rid of capitalism entirely, and others will think we just need to make a few tweaks to the current system. Speaking for myself, yes, I think we absolutely need to turn away from capitalism and the kind of thinking that says we can have infinite growth on a planet with finite resources, rapid population growth, and rapidly increasing economic inequality(and don't tell them to just work harder, all money is just someone elses debt and it's a physical impossibility for everyone to be rich).
Is turning away from capitalism impossible? It might be, because what's required is that people actually think seriously about things instead of falling into the conditioned tendencies of just being reactionary and stubbornly defending their views without actually being curious about the way things actually are. It's interesting your name is "independentmind." I'd like to suggest that someone with an independent mind would not just automatically rule out an idea such as turning away from capitalism simply because it's different or you've convinced yourself in the past that capitalism is good. If you have an open mind, really think about it. Contemplate if things now are going well for the majority of the people in the world(I assume you care about that, right?), ask yourself honestly what you think could make things better, and don't worry if the answer you come up with is something out of the mainstream. I truly wish you the best in your genuine search for the truth about things.
I have spent a lot of time on this page and I have to admit, yours is the first counter argument I've read to anything I've said that was presented in a manner that comes across as rational and logical. Thank you for that, first of all.
I do take issue with the term anarchist, especially so in terms of this movement... I have spent a lot of time on this page... and I don't discount there may be a better way of doing thing. And I actually support some socialist ideas. Some. But the vibe I get off the people here is a desire to completely dismantle the entire system... with no thought consequences or plans regarding rebuilding. "Tear it down and whatever will be will be", is more often the mentality I come across.
So. When I see posts like this, I am greatly concerned by the manner in which it will be interpreted.
Lots of anarcho-capitalists in the movement.
Thank you. I also have to say, your response is the only one I've read amongst OWS critics that is civil and shows a real desire to understand things, so thanks again.
I think I agree with your concern about dismantling the system. I don't think any fair minded person thinks we should just do a complete 180 in 1 day, that's obviously not possible and would be complete chaos. But there's nothing wrong with defining the goal of transitioning out of capitalism, and working to achieve it. If you read any of the articles from Yes Magazine or any of Korten's books, I think you'll recognize that none of those ideas or Korten himself is in any way extreme. You may disagree with them, but they are earnestly trying to make things better and are well aware of the kind of planning and work it will take to restructure the system.
As for the website and other people in the movement, you're right. A lot of the posts on this site are a little unhinged and show poor judgement in my opinion, and some people in the movement are more articulate than others, which is of course true of the Tea Party or any other movement. If OWS is going to succeed, it will have to become more disciplined with its focus and messaging in order to attract a wide range of people. But right now it's still very young and finding its feet. Remember this is a true grassroots movement by everyday people who may or may not always be able to express themselves as effectively as some PR guy in DC. It's an organic process and no one knows how it's going to develop.
But the one thing it does have on its side is that it is fundamentally right on the issue(obviously my opinion). Most people in this country can feel in their gut that something is wrong, even if they can't always put their finger on it, and that's why OWS resonates with a lot of folks. Trust me, if the human species is still around in 1000 years, capitalism will be long gone. We have to learn to live with each other in cooperation, not competition. That's really what it boils down to.
I agree. But I am also solid in my conviction that this movement, as it presents itself today, is nothing I can endorse. There is too much confusion, chaos and the goals and purposes are unclear. I believe the movements fragmentation will be its doom. I read post after post on both the main forum and the user forum and most of the folks here don't even speak my language, let alone speak for me.
I am hopeful this will gel into something with some real substance. And I greatly respect the conversations it has started, but at this time I don't agree with many of its causes or practices. Even the Oakland Strike... which I was all for after what happened to Scot Olsen... shutting down the port for a day? Who did that hurt? Not the blanketed 1%. No. It hurt the people they mean to represent. The ones who lost pay that day. The destruction of property? Again, those were not multi- billion dollar businesses.
At this time, I simply cannot support this movement. But I continue to play close attention. I continue to interject my opinion and I will continue to be hopeful they will develop a uniform direction, message and cause.
If you support the idea that we need to move away from capitalism, or more generally, have a system that works for a majority of people rather than a minority, you can support this movement. If you don't support that idea, don't support the movement. The fact that it's chaotic or there are uncouth people here and there doesn't matter. It's a movement. Of course it's going to be chaotic in the beginning. The point of a movement is that people get together, and then gradually organize and become more effective based on the input of its people. Take me for example. I agree with the overall message of OWS. I don't agree with some of the tactics or people in the movement. So what do I do? I add my input and try to affect it positively, because I agree with the overall message. Not everyone in the civil rights movement believed in nonviolence, and it set the movement back. Fortunately, there were other people in the movement who educated them and showed them that their conduct was detrimental to the goal. The Tea Party? Plenty of them were misinformed and had horribly ignorant signs, but if you agreed with their overall message, you should support them.
The Oakland fiasco was despicable. Those people are hypocrites, claiming to want a better world while at the same time acting like hooligans and destroying property. 99% of the people of Occupy Oakland disagree with that tactic, but to this day they have yet to put a statement out denouncing violence. If the larger occupy movement follows their lead, this will be over very quick.
Shutting down the port is another issue. Yes, in an auxiliary way it affects regular people, but at some point you have to go to the source of the problem. Businesses like McDonalds hide behind the veil of "creating jobs," when in reality, it's paid slavery. Horrible working conditions, substandard wages, and providing a product that is actually bad for society. If everyone working there were to strike, yes, technically they would lose their jobs. But we need to consider the larger question of corporations exploiting people for their sole benefit. Shutting down the port of Oakland? Sure, people may lose a day's wages. But we're trying to address the bigger issue of children in Chinese factories working 20 hours a day for a dollar an hour that make the products on those ships, and the people working at those ports who are barely staying afloat regardless of how hard they work. Social change is never neat and tidy with zero unwanted consequences. That's just the way it is.
I am not sure I do support the movement's overall message.
Or lack thereof, as the case may be.
I can't say I believe businesses like McDonald's are as terrible as you claim they are. Can't say I agree that shutting down the port had as much depth and foresight as you interpret it to. I think you are adding meaning that isn't there and devising a movement you want to see with a fraction of the facts and a lot of blanks filled in.
I am all for reform.
Reform of our current structure. I am not so quick to throw in the towel on a free market society. In the grand scheme, our government is still very, very young. Tweaking and revamping are a must, the whole deal is filthy and corrupt at this moment...
But who in history has had a more successful system?
Ok, so we disagree about McDonalds. You don’t say why you disagree though, so I can’t respond to anything there. We also disagree about shutting down the ports. I don’t know what kind of depth you think I was adding to it, I was simply saying the intention of the strike, as is the case with every strike in history, was to advocate for improved pay/working conditions. I think that’s fairly obvious. You say we need reform, but what kind? Maybe less government and even freer markets? So let corporations just do whatever they want, pay people even less, get even richer? Whenever people talk about “free markets,” make no mistake, what that really means is “corporate control.” We get caught up on the whole big government vs. big business debate, but that’s an outdated construct. When you have businesses buying and controlling government, the distinction becomes irrelevant.
But really, if you’re for capitalism and individual determination, why should you have any problem with businesses doing whatever the hell they want? Paying employees next to nothing to enable more and more profits. After all, that’s what we value, isn’t it? Ambition, success. If you’re ambitious and cutthroat enough to attain the kind of wealth that allows you to buy influence and actually change policies to make them more favorable to you- that’s fair game, isn’t it? Screw everyone else who isn’t hellbent on world domination. They need to get in the game, compete, survival of the fittest. Never mind that CEOs are completely dependent on them to profit as much as they do. Screw em. This is about free markets and making as much money as you can, so whatever they need to do or whoever they need to step on to do that- none of us should have any problem with that if we really value free markets.
Who in history has had a more successful system? If you’re going purely on GDP, no one. But that’s the problem. Our priorities are mixed up. We’ve become deluded into thinking things like “growth” and employment figures are ends in themselves, rather than the actual happiness and well-being of the population. Look at a country like Bhutan. You may laugh at that, because they’re a primitive and technologically inferior country to us, but by any measure you want to go on, they are a far happier population than us – less disease, less violence, etc., and trust me, none of them are clamoring to get over here. They even have something called the GNH(gross national happiness). Now that doesn’t mean we have to go backwards in order to be happy. We can have a completely technologically advanced society, but replace our focus on growth and profits to a focus on people. I know that’s pie in the sky stuff, but it is possible. You know why? Most people would support it. Most people are NOT hellbent on world domination. Most people just want to contribute in a meaningful way to society and take care of their family and friends. That’s it. They don’t need the incentive of insane profits. But our system allows the small minority of people- the ones who care about things like power and influence and are not satisfied with hundreds of millions of dollars- to run the show. The system rewards greed, so the most greedy among us are able to take control and literally decide the fabric of our lives, make whatever rules they want, control the media, and delude people into thinking this behavior is somehow good for society and should be celebrated as a testament to our “freedom.” But it doesn’t have to be that way, because there are more normal people than there are of them. We can have all the jobs and technical innovation we have now, but instead have our companies run with the intention of actually improving society. Instead of being scared of “losing jobs” when an advancement in technology replaces human labor, we can celebrate it. Shouldn’t we all benefit from technological advances? Shouldn’t that allow us to reduce our workload, rather than cause us to panic about getting laid off? But since everything is about profit, this isn’t the case. Technological advancement benefits only the CEOs, who can then cut jobs/costs and increase their profit margin. But now, I think more people are realizing that we can have a society with all the benefits and good things we currently have, but guided by values that are reflective of MOST people, not this minority that’s in charge now. People are realizing it’s a myth that we need “competition” to somehow spur innovation, and that it’s much more efficient and productive to work together. We may be a long way away from this kind of fundamental change, but at least we are aware and contemplating such things on a wider scale now, and that’s a big step from where we were 6 months ago.
Sorry to go on like this. I used to write for a living and have no problem churning out long essays. I also happen to think conversations like this are important and can hopefully be beneficial to others outside you and me.
For some it is, for some it isn't. I hope it is. We need a rebirth of our nation, which would NOT include capitalism.
If we keep capitalism, we keep inequalities for it's inherent in the system. EVERYONE can't be rich, someone HAS to be poor, EVERYONE can't be guaranteed and provided employment, someone HAS to be unemployed by way of lay-offs, UNLESS the government MAKES it a law that EVERYONE has to be given the job that they want, provided the training that they need, and it is ONLY by way of ineptitude that a person can't have the job(career) they want; that the only unemployed are those that are mentally retarded or physically disabled, to the point of non-functioning, and THEN, everyone is taxed at a rate that is relative to their income so that EVERYONE takes home the EXACT SAME amount of money. EVERYONE makes a minimum/maximum wage, a "national standard wage".
No "upper", no "middle", no "lower", just "standard class".
I want to know what the hell is going on also that there are the complaints about the system but not much talk about a destruction and rebirth of the current system. Just talk about some "change(s)".
And where, exactly, has socialism been successful in the past?
Just curious.
That is patently false.
Some people are going to be wealthier on a relative basis, but even the poorest of the poor can be well off by global standards.
If everyone makes the same amount of money then anyone with skill is going to apply that skill in the black market and everyone who doesn't want to do anything will do nothing and still get paid the same. This has been proven again and again in every country where it was tried.
"Tell me again that this movement isn't aimed toward smashing capitalism and our entire economic system..."
it's not aimed toward smashing capitalism and our entire economic system...
Liar.
Maybe you're not. But this movement is. Read what this article claims before you speak for everyone... oh... wait...
that's this movement's MO.
I don't speak for anyone. I was making a joke at the expense of your post.
Ah. Gotcha. Its funny actually. Now that I get it. ;-)
David Korten needs to be a face of this movement. He's been working on all the issues brought up by OWS his whole life and has specific solutions to give us direction and focus. Similarly Yes Magazine is essential reading for anyone in the movement. We don't need a leader, we need MANY leaders, and Korten should certainly be one of them.
Dear Occupy Wall Street
Did you know that there is a UK band called " BLAME THE BANKERS" who play a mixture of pop, blues, jazz and Latin? They were formed about six months ago and if in NYC would love to play for you - pass it around.
http://www.youtube.com/user/blamethebankers
Good luck and keep it going until victory!
Best wishes
"Blame the Bankers" Band
who organised the mass selling of subprime mortgages knowing they were unsustainable? who organised the creation of the derivatives deliberately concealing the aforesaid sub prime mortgages? who organised the credit ratings for these fraudulent derivatives? who organised the rapid global selling of these fraudulent derivatives?
who? I thought it was a response by the investment community to the unethical, lazy population of the united states wanting to buy houses they could never afford.
that's what you have been told. that's what you believe. they are playing with your prejudices. your delusion of looking down on others. you have been duped and manipulated. they were deliberately sold houses knowing they could not afford the extortionate prices at the top of the market deliberately to inflate values for the fraudulent derivatives.
Really? that's an amazing story. So people didn't really want those nice new houses for next to nothing mortgage payments? They didn't keep flipping them and taking out loans using their supposed values to pay for crap they were buying, to pay for college tuition that was so high the college could never fail you? They didn't like having all those jobs as real estate developers, agents, builders, maintainers? They didn't want the real-estate tax income supporting their schools?
Give me a break, what a bunch of whining babies.
at least you have identified yourself as an ENEMY of the poor, the 99% and this beautiful OWS movement.
Pfft
Facing reality is the first step in a true revolution. If you think 1% is at fault while 99% have done no wrong then you're a delusional child. This was a well coordinated effort by a corrupt society. The 1% did their part, the 99% did their part, everyone is at fault.
no it was a small group a fascist elite who ORGANISED the frauds. you are blaming the victims then blaming all of us. 911 INSIDE JOB SUBPRIME FRAUD INSIDE JOB.
Wow, this is amazing.
You believe the US government, which was unable to regulate markets, unable to win wars, unable to get anything right for a while now, perpetrated 911 and managed to keep it a secret?
I think you're a stooge for some investment bank trying to show that ows is full of crazies.
BS!!!! 911 INSIDE JOB is not secret. dick cheney ordered NORAD to stand down so the planes could fly free into the towers. or do you think a raghead goat herder living in a cave controls US air space? then he ordered the rapid and illegal removal of evidence from the ground zero crime scene. watch ARCHITECTS AND ENGINEERS for 911 TRUTH.
It'll take you five seconds to find the rebuke of that idiotic film, then the rebuke of the rebuke, and so on, but if you choose to believe that insane theory, and if you think it somehow has some deep meaning, then you are almost certainly out of your mind.
sooner or later you must face the truth, lose your family, home and job and health insurance and empty the BS out of your head.
Can they raise awareness of the UK royal bank, Canada's royal bank, etc....
Honestly: This is a home run waiting to be hit
Condemn venal journalism for severely fooling the people http://occupywallst.org/forum/condemn-venal-journalism-for-severely-fooling-the-/
Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. Looking at some of those graphs, it's hard to believe things are not much worse than they are right now.
Thanks, any thoughts on getting someone with a 'pulpit' to hit the home run?
I don't think I am following your analogy. What are you looking to do?
EXTRA It’s my view that the main enabler of sizable asset price bubbles (very harmful!) is keeping the real asset price histories out-of-sight.
I seek to have these real asset price histories http://homepage.mac.com/ttsmyf/RHandRD.html ongoingly apparent to the people -- I call such success a 'home run'. (The status quo is essentially zero apparence.) I suppose that succeeding at this would be via the news media. I call a person or entity that the media would report on 'having a puplit'. Hope this is clear, thanks for the query.
I am really sorry, I am trying, but if you really want to make this apparent to the general population, you will have to break this down in much simpler terms. In general you are saying that the people making the most from the bubble- were trying to hide information. I follow there. I don't get how the charts you link to show this? I see charts that show the same bubble over and over again. Nothing surprising because I was there when it happened. Though it does not surprise me that the people who stood to make the most money from the bubble, wanted to hide information, I dont see how the charts prove this.
Thank you very much for the feedback -- I guess I’ve been talking to myself too long! I’ll try for a full elaboration, and including your specific points.
First, we use US$ money to buy goods and services, and so a meaningful asset price history is adjusted for consumer price inflation. This is the case EVEN THOUGH it is nearly never done.
Bubbles are well shown ... For elaboration of getting to this point, I’ll ask you to go here http://homepage.mac.com/ttsmyf/citaa.html and look at the beginning of the OpEd. And please note the difference in the two traces in Chart 1. And note the three Fed Chair warnings here: http://homepage.mac.com/ttsmyf/3warnsRD.html
EFFECT OF BUBBLE Equal and opposite effects on buyer and seller -- net equals zero. Equal and opposite effects on all the asset-holders taken together and on all the asset-non-holders taken together -- net equals zero. Bottom line: rational pricing is better for the common good than is irrational pricing because rationality is more likely to be there tomorrow than is irrationality -- giving ‘a more stable environment for all of us to plan our lives’ (Shiller).
Who makes out from bubbles? Brokers/middlemen, who get a % of overpriced transactions -- and bubbles attract more participants to a market, giving more transactions. As I wrote earlier, and I would say is another bottom line: “It’s my view that the main enabler of sizable asset price bubbles (very harmful!) is keeping the real asset price histories out-of-sight.”
It is natural that ‘market pros’ will average better outcomes than ‘market amateurs’ -- that is ‘fair’ and obvious. BUT the foregoing, natural ‘edge’ is unfairly much-increased when these compelling histories are kept little-apparent! http://homepage.mac.com/ttsmyf/RHandRD.html
FINALLY, re. bubble-showing will be bubble-deterring, I wrote the following a while back.
I have long believed that bubbles would be well-deterred by keeping 'in the public's face' on an ongoing basis appropriate chart(s) of the past.
For example, the Real Dow: http://homepage.mac.com/ttsmyf/RealDow.gif 'Sky's the limit' thinking/imagining is substantially negated by a glance at this past. And re. risk, also at a glance: there's been plenty of 'riding it down' in the past. And an individual will see that his 'investment lifetime' is of the order of the past's ca. 3.5 decade periodicity.
from my "the compelling Real DJIA, 1924-now" at http://homepage.mac.com/ttsmyf "the 3 Fed Chair warnings, Real DJIA" at http://homepage.mac.com/ttsmyf/3warnsRD.html
OWS has you fooled.....
Ford Foundation? Harvard Business Scool? Club of Rome? Are you seriously going to take advice from a synarchist?
I call your Poisoning the Well Fallacy, and raise a Bifurcation Fallacy: So you're saying the actions of the central bank (fiat money) is good for the 99%?
Someone paid attention to logic in school. Now bust out some symbolic logic.
I just went to Google, the club of Rome on Wikipedia, you should all go and read what these elitist are up to don't just take my word for it look FOR YOURSELVES !!! and that is just one of this guys organizations these are the exact people to be very alarmed about
I didn't see anything particularly alarming about Club of Rome on wikipedia or elsewhere. Yeah it's a fairly high society-esque group, but their focus at least seems correct- the earth isn't a garbage can. I think that one quote is most likely taken out of context, I don't think they mean it in the way people think. It's a published book, not a secret document. I've followed Korten for a long time and there's no way he's plotting to assert his dominion over us. Yeah he went to Harvard, that's where he realized the flaw of the economic system, and he also spent many years helping develop 3rd world countries. Unfortunately if he does start to get some notoriety now a lot of people who believe everything Alex Jones says will automatically freak out about this- ooh, Club of Rome, sounds NWO-ey!
I think you are right. They have chosen to blame humanity for most of our problems which means they are blaming the elitists because they are the dictators of humanity.
I checked that out too after you mentioned it and I am quite certain that Dr. Korten is not in agreement with such a club. I've read enough of his work to know that he seems to be a uniquely genuine person and that he has some great ideas that OWS should be considering to implement in their visions of the future. Check out his website, YES! Magazine, I think it is. He doesn't strike me as the type of person interested in population control. He strikes me as the type of person that believes that this planet could accommodate 10 billion people easily and peacefully if it were to properly evolve. I have to make it a priority to read more of his stuff.
Please read this document, specifically explains how we can bring down the FED and also bring about real change and fix what is really wrong with our system. Anonymous is now supporting the document also: http://anoncentral.tumblr.com/post/12409353866/for-the-99-the-new-common-sense-must-distribute
We Want God's Reserve, Not Federal Reserve. We are the 99%
Properties of Fed opposers:
So you're making an attack based on: Race Religion assumed bias assumed income entirely assumed projection
I don't find your position shocking - I find your willingness to expose yourself like this in a public forum. This kind of "thought process" should be embarrassing to post.
Next time you're in a meeting with End The Fed crazies, please look around and see that I'm right.
Poor inner city college kids and I might be able to agree with you judging from the people I hang out with. What you stated - not at all.
your list makes no sense. we are opposing the private corruption of the fed. we are multicolored! some of us realise that christians are agents of the fascist male-only hierarchy of christian church telling us this is a great democracy????? none of us are antisemites: we are anti israel for their crimes against humanity in gaza.
There you have it. You don't hate all Jews, just the ones in Israel and the ones running the banks :)
Pathetic.
BS!! i do not hate any jews!! israel is an american colony dependent on american money, american nukes, american support. israel, america and the banks are run by the freemasons rebranded knights templar. a secret FASCIST society. gaza is worse than the warsaw ghetto.
Israel has not depended on American money for about a decade now. Its nukes were developed with no assistance from the US (although with plenty of assistance from France) and the rest of the stuff you wrote just means you're a lunatic. Gaza is a terrible place, but worse than the warsaw ghetto? are you just parodizing ows supporters here?
To: Prime Minister Roseanne Barr [Green Tea] Prime Minister Gail Lightfoot [Libertarian] Prime Minister Charles Bruce Stewart [Green Libertarian] Secretary Jacob Covich [Catholic Trotskyist] Cc: All Voters and Non Voters From: Secretary James Ogle [Free Parliamentary] Subject: USP: Day to Day Updates 11/9/2011
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The two ranked choice eballot election deadlines have been extended through 11/11/11 in order to get more participants in the efforts.
The eballots are for the election of the Mid-West Super-state Parliament and for the Direct Democracy (DD) Election for the Planks on the Platform of the national USA Parliament executives' ballot.
Click on the "Vote Here" tab on the USA Parliament's main navigation bar to locate the links to the eballots and follow the directions on one or both eballots.
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Great news, the cool chair of the Alaska Constitution Party, Platform Minister J.R. Myers [Constitution], has just ranked ALL of the items on the direct democracy (DD) eballot for the executives planks on the platform ballot, and his choices (plus three write-in ideas) can be viewed by clicking the link below. This is now like a Constitution/Libertarian/Free Parliamentary Coalition, and a time for celebration, since I am a candidate for US president with the national Libertarian Party in 2012. So now we need to decide which woman for president (I will be standing down and serve as vice president, depending on the results of the 8th USA Parliament Election of 2012). Will it be Prime Minister Roseanne Barr [Green Tea], Jill Stein [Green], Communication Minister Cynthia McKinney [Green] or Director Tina Cook [Independent]? http://usparliament.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=510&p=1020#p1020
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXKC5mEuuTM&feature=player_embedded
check it.