Artists Demand Fair Labor Standards!
Posted 11 years ago on May 8, 2013, 2:34 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt
Tags:
labor,
union,
frieze art fair,
ows arts and labor
To artists, gallerists, workers, and fairgoers attending Frieze Art Fair New York:
For the second year in a row, Frieze Art Fair and its subcontractor Production Glue have hired low-wage, non-unionized workers to construct their fair, bringing in people from as far away as Wisconsin. This breaks with the industry standard: the major New York City art fairs including the Armory and the ADAA, as well as many other cultural and business expositions, employ unionized workers to construct and run their shows.
Frieze is a for-profit private event that takes over a municipal public park for two months to serve a global clientele of wealthy art collectors. The fair pays less than $1 per square foot to lease the land from the city. With a ticket price of $42 per day, Frieze is inaccessible to many working New Yorkers. However, despite the cheap rent and high admission prices to an event that generates millions of dollars in art sales (and not to mention the event's main sponsor, Deutsche Bank), Frieze still claims it cannot afford to pay decent wages to local workers.
Labor organizations including Teamsters Joint Council 16, NYC Central Labor Council, IATSE Local 829, IATSE Local 1, NYC District Council of Carpenters, and District Council 9 have all called on Frieze to employ their union members and guarantee local workers a fair, living wage with benefits. This demand has been repeated by City Councilwoman Melissa Mark-Viverito (representing Randall’s Island), as well as City Councilmembers Jessica Lappin and Mark Weprin, and U.S. Representative Carolyn B. Maloney (D-NY12). As Weprin said recently, “Frieze NY Art Fair, or any private business that chooses to use public parks, should hire local New York workers and adhere to fair labor standards.”
If you are an artist or gallerist showing at the fair:
We ask you to refuse to serve as a fig leaf for exploitation. We ask you to decline to lend artistic cachet to an event that does not support New Yorkers, and that desperately needs the stamp of cultural seriousness to justify itself to the public.
Even if you cannot withdraw from the fair at this point, we ask you to consider speaking out publicly against Frieze’s unfair labor practices by making information about this issue available at your booth. We would be glad to provide you with a sign and/or flyers you can display.
We also urge you to tell Frieze organizers that you are an artist or represent artists in the exhibition and that you support organized labor.
If you are attending or work at the fair: Urge everyone you know to contact Frieze to demand they engage in fair labor practices, and consider not attending the fair until Frieze agrees.
It takes courage to speak the truth when many wish to deny it, but rest assured that should you decide to stand up and speak out, you will not be alone.
The arts are an economic engine for New York, bringing millions of people and billions of dollars to the city each year. Yet each year, more jobs become unpaid internships, artists are denied payment for their labor, real wages go down, and benefits are lost; meanwhile, the city becomes more expensive and the distribution of wealth more unequal. We believe in the importance of holding institutions such as Frieze accountable for their impact on New York and the people who live and work here. We want to see art bloom across our city, but we know there is a better, fairer way to foster this growth.
Sincerely, Arts & Labor
To contact Frieze:
Frieze New York Office 41 Union Square West, Suite 1623 New York, NY 10003 +1 212 463 7488 info@frieze.com
Production Glue www.productionglue.com Facebook
Directors Amanda Sharp Matthew Slotover
Assistant to Director Amanda Sharp Renee Browne +1 212 463 7488 renee.browne@frieze.com
Frieze London Office 1 Montclare Street London E2 7EU, UK +44 (0)20 3372 6111
Twitter [@FriezeNewYork](twitter.com/FriezeNewYork]
FNY13 #FriezeRatFair
For more information on this struggle, see:
Arts & Labor, “NYC Labor Leaders Demand that Frieze NY Art Fair Hire Local and Union”
Mostafa Heddaya, “Labor Issues in Spotlight as Frieze NY Prepares for May Art Fair”
Whitney Kimball, “Unions, City Council, Congresswoman Protest Frieze”
Rozalia Jovanovic, “New York Union Members Speak Out at City Hall Against Frieze's Labor Policies”
The single biggest issue regarding the exploitation of artists, as well as of creativity at large, is the unequal enforcement of copyright standards.
In the information age this is an issue that will Kill real creativity.
As much as I agree with the concerns raised in this post, they are nothing compared to the way that every creative artist who does not have a retinue of lawyers on hand has no redress for the exploitation his/her works copyrights, or any way to earn royalties on the publication/syndication of their work in the modern age.
This is a HUGE issue - one that is not addressed ANYWHERE!
As creativity becomes the essential nature of all our work, in the information age, who will profit . . .? the creators of that work, or some nebulous corporate middleman and their lawers?
That is an issue that effects all of us, everyday, and it is not even recognized as an issue as far as I can see.
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[-] 1 points by Middleaged (4573) 5 minutes ago
Ok, I'm drunk. The US GDP is $15.7 trillion in 2012,[1]. If the US Federal Budget was $3 T or $3.5 Trillion... Wages would not be 43%.of GDP or $6.75 Trillion Dollars.
Well any way... Total Compensation is probably the number to compare to GDP.
Total population in work force = 155.028 million (includes 11.742 mil. unemployed, March 2013)[6] Total US Income = Revenues $2.45 trillion Looks like $15,803 dollars a year average income per American.
Hey, Somebody tell me why the US Revenues in 2012 was like a sixth of the value of the US GDP???? I don't like these numbers from Wikipedia.
I was going to look at the US wage rate in comparison to US GDP. So I still have to learn,
Hit me back tomorrow ... maybe I'll forward it on to a buddy to do a common sense test.
Right now... Total wages would be higher than Government wages... and Executive wages are sky high. Figure 315,828,000 people total US population...
If you believe official numbers then average US Wage is $48K . Which I don't see based on other numbers.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD
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This ties into a current thought, if everyone recieved the same wage would pride return to work, would we feel pride in our accomplishments.. would people earning equal wage .. increase creativity? .. how would our culture change if everyone earned an equal wage?
it would destroy ambition. deter drive and eliminate the work ethic.
Incorrect. After an employee's needs have been met, employers face diminishing returns with regards to employee motivation as pay increases. In other words, people highly desire to make enough money to live, but once their needs are met they other incentives become increasingly important. Pride in one's work is one of them. Respect is another. And so on. People do a great deal for love and respect. For the very rich money's intrinsic value is less important than the power, and prestige that can come with it.
Thats why the arguments for trickle down economics are BS. The very rich are not motivated to work at all, and the comfortable are also known to slack off. Letting money flow to the top at the expense of the workers is bad for the economy as it sucks resources to the top, and the rich are not motivated enough to reinvest that money since they are already rich enough to do nothing but lobby gov't for lower taxes and less regulation (cheaper labor and production).
The very poor however work the hardest. They are our agricultural labor. They make our clothes. They even make a great deal of our disposable "hard goods" like iPhones etc....
That's an interesting point.. once our financial needs are met .. money no longer is enough to drive us.. and other incentives become increasingly important.
Thanks.
This is a fairly well recognized phenomenon by employers. In fields where more money flows around, like Tech, the goal is usually to give employees enough money that they do not have to worry about the costs of health care, housing, food, or education. For people that must come up with creative solutions to problems all day, you don't want them stressed out about "worldly" things. You want them to focus on their work.
People also focus more on their work when they are happy and feel that they are choosing to do their work.
But the idea that equal pay would destroy ambition , is just complete nonsense. as suggested above by eterna..
There are many retired age folk out volunteering their time .. I think we need to recognize there is a happy point for everyone between keeping aactive ..and total inactivity .. no one likes to be completely inactive .. the day is just so much more enjoyable when involved in an interesting task.
Thanks again
I'm not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that it is well recognized by even the opposition (employers) that pay is not the only motivator, and that its value declines after the point at which someone has enough to meet their needs.
if you get paid no matter what kind of job you do, there is no pride. there are penty of union emloyees that cant be fired that do a crappy job, knowing that they cant be fired. an example it the NYC teachers " rubber room". " the very poor work the hardest" because farm work can be intensive work that doesnt meant that the people that do it dont slack off. you want to think that they work the hardest but you really dont know that.
Your first statement is a false assertion. Supporting it with claims that there are "plenty of ..." needs to be backed up by hard evidence. As it is you are just repeating the same tired rhetoric that union bashers use.
Also I do know how hard people work in agriculture. The quality of life for migratory farm workers for example is documented if you care to look. I have also worked in agriculture alongside people with no choice but to work those jobs. I have a well rounded perspective on this subject due to my interest in it, and my personal experience.
the stories about the rubber rooms that nyc teachers have been sent to" rubber rooms" ( while still collecting full pay) have been in the ny times and the daily news. why do migratory workers have no choice? dont want to be a migratory worker, go to school and learn a trade.
I can't take you seriously if you are going to claim that a migratory worker has the opportunity to take a different line of work.
are all migratory workers illegal? if not they could get , or at least try to get a job that would keep them in one place s that they could go to school, learn a trade and better themselves. yes, its hard, but not impossible. thats where drive and ambition come in .
I do not know what to say to you as your assumptions are so far off base and out of touch with reality, that I don't know if you honestly believe what you are saying, or if you are just here to waste my time.
if peoples needs are met then why do they care how much others are making? why would there be a need for everything to be equal? What is your point and also look at who actually do those types of jobs laborers,factory workers. In deed if they had the means to you think that they would get themselves a better job correct? You don't know every single person's situation. People work at factory's make your clothing for a reason maybe they are criminals,made poor decisions in life, started a family to soon and had time for nothing else.The point I am making is that they had the same chance as everyone else. Those jobs do pay very good compared to retail,fast food and other jobs that do not take a lot of work, however a management position pays more because it is generally more stressful,takes more education and is over all more responsibility. work that is mentally challenging is harder then just working a group of muscles. Imagine being a manager and having to keep your cool, while bosses are getting mad at you for workers poor performance or the task is not getting done quick enough. Workers only have to worry about working, while management and Corporate have to worry about getting more jobs,clients, having enough supplies,workers,expanding,pay role,taxes, being competitive, laws,regulations,permits,keeping investors happy the list goes on and on . Yes workers work hard, but they only have to worry about working and their own personal life! They are there for a reason. I know many people that wouldn't take a management position even if it paid more, because it is a lot of stress! Don't demean management or corporate employees including a CEO you have no idea what they put with, so how about stop being jealous and work for a living and work hard to make the big buck or don't wine and complain about it. This system allows you to pursue that live style or make as much money as you work for!!!! How would you know how motivated the rich are? They may not do what you or I would do, but that is because they are free not to! If you have a problem with it then build your own company and spend your money the way you deem necessary!!! Don't gripe and complain about it. do something about it without acting like fascist who want to control everybody. Jeez you guys are hypocritical!!!!You want to see a change then you are the generation to do it just takes hard work to accomplish it so you can make those changes and not try to force it on someone else.
You think that making clothes in a factory pays more than retail in the US? Maybe there are a few cases of this, but largely no. The garment industry has been offshored to places like Bangladesh where wages are exceptionally low.
Factory job in the U.S yes they do! Check your facts. I have worked in Factory and retail. J.C penny gave me a chance and I blew it. The factory job was through a temp agency, because I couldn't get anything better. Factory jobs do pay more than when you just start with a retail position. The hours are one factor in this as well since in retail it is hard to get full time. They normally hire part-time at first
I'd need to see statistics of these. The garment industry in the US is almost entirely gone due to the prevalence of cheap sweatshops abroad.
Do you actually sit at your computer and read statistics. I am telling you because I worked for a temp agency called A.S.I in spencer. Get out and actually experience it for yourself in stead of just reading statistics. They are not always right! Just because a person is black doesn't mean that they have aids, because statistically a lot of people of African decent do a prime example of a wrong conclusion on a statistic!! I really don't feel like looking up statistics and wasting time one that, if you don't go and experience it for yourself then it is none of my loss. You are the one that losses out! If you want them search them, but they are not always correct and factual for everything a guide to what is happening around you! You don't believe me it is your loss. You loss out on a job!
You still haven't shared the name of a garment factory in Iowa as far as I can tell.
I do not doubt that you worked in a factory for $20/hr. I had been talking about garment workers being extremely low paid. Not factory work in general.
I never said that I worked there I merely was talking about their practices pertaining to temp workers idiot lmfao check the post. lol all the drugs I know will limit your memory recall! There are no garment factories here in iowa, mostly manufacturer and production lol what a louser
Considering that you took us down this thread in contention of my assertion that garment workers are amongst the lowest paid, I don't buy it.
Your increased use of personal attacks instead of reason are also a good indication that you are simply wasting my time.
Bye.
I just checked your facts, and that does not look like Eaton produces clothing.
So while I believe you that that job paid more than retail, you are being misleading.
I never said that they did there is no clothing factory here lol that brings up a good point though why did you even mention clothing when most of our clothing and the world comes from Asain countries. I sincerely didn't catch that we were referring to clothing. I don't know why you were assuming that it was, because I never put eatons and clothing in the same sentence. At that point I was just talking about factories in general. Jack links is beef jerky :)
The way Co.'s operate to keep down their overhead - never hiring the temp to be full time.
You do get hired in some cases, but it takes a long time and hard work. There was one company called eatons in Spencer,Ia that was notoriously hard to get full-time as a temp and only a few got those positions and all other temps were fired. That job paid like 20/hr if full-time, however jack links in Laurens, Ia kept their temps for a long time and made them full-time, if their performance was on par. Eatons would fire temps seasonally.Jack links temps sometimes stayed on for years, before getting full time, but they would rarely fire temps unless your performance was horrible or you messed around and became a liability. Temps had full time hours at both places
Another thing...sorry but technically the rich still do contribute by purchasing high end(expensive products) that drive industries like those selling yachts, which creates jobs in manufacturing. Expensive cars....hmmm also banks make it possible for the average person who is responsible and has good credit to take out a loan for a car or boat that otherwise they wouldn't be able to buy. Just so you know I am actually an unemployed collage student who is trying to find a job, has bad credit,criminal record and I am trying to build my own company. Be apart of the solution not a commentator!!! Also if you are apart of the occupy movement get a job and start actually working hard instead of blaming everyone else
You'd be right except you're completely and absolutely wrong. It's not about whether the rich contribute. It's a matter of the rate and value of their contribution.
Not all consumer spending or wealth or investment is equally productive to the economy. For at least two reasons. The financialization of the economy and the velocity of money. The financialization of the economy is well known and well documented as being almost entirely unproductive and dangerous to the economy (See 2008 Financial Crisis). And you clearly have no concept of the velocity of money. I'm a little worried that you don't understand the basics of supply and demand either.
At any rate, the velocity of money is the rate at which money changes hands. Higher velocity means the same quantity of money is used for a greater number of transactions. Which is absolutely necessary for a healthy economy. A few very wealthy people spending their money on luxury items does not have as high a rate of velocity as many people can for lesser goods. They cannot achieve the same amount of 'transactions'.
Wealthy people do not buy enough yachts. They spend their money on very expensive luxury goods which does not have as large an economic impact for job creation as many many people spending money more broadly on more but lesser things. Imagine a wealthy person spends $1,000 for a bottle of Champagne. Think about what it took to make that bottle of Champagne. Land, grapes, a vineyard owner, maybe 1 or two vineyard workers, and a person that made the bottle at the bottle factory. Imagine instead $1,000 being spent by 10 families, $100 each. For clothes, food, lots of miscellaneous items. Think about how many people that money would 'touch'. Many more 'transactions'. Touching multiple grocers, farmers, retailers, manufacturers, the workers and owners/stockholders at all of these places. Who in turn get paid and then spend that money. The economic impact of the 10 families is far more productive to the economy. Economists understand this. It is called the velocity of money. The higher the velocity of money, the more everyone prospers. Some wealthy people understand this as well. Because if the 10 families don't have that money to spend, then who is going to buy all their shit?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBx2Y5HhplI
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2012/05/joseph-stiglitz-the-price-on-inequality#
Currently, money velocity is at record lows. Because income and wealth concentration is at record highs. High levels of concentrated wealth cannot achieve the rate of velocity as many many people can given that same amount of money. This all means - economy very fucked up.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/M2V/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhm81tEg5wc
all of that doesn't matter you are indeed fascist communist, because you attempt to tell these rich people what they should do with their hard earned money. This whole thing is bitching about someone doing what they are suppose to do in a capitalist system. Bring down cost while maximizing profitability. Sorry that you guys are low on the chain to compete or even grasp simple concepts. You are just assuming that is the cause where is your due process? Do you know how long the wealthy have been the wealthy and how long that it has been this way? where is your due process? Why are you trying to blame others for this situation? This is a capitalist system is it not? Are you for communism? You guys keep on going back to communist Ideology equality when talking about economics is a part of the communist Ideology, which really? Our economy isn't that bad! People are just to dam lazy to go out and get the jobs!!!! Here in Des Moines for example there are over 1,000 jobs that need to be filled. This is based off of jobdig.com, Even more then that considering not all employers go through that site. You guys seem to be just using the economy to your advantage. Nick Hanauer seems like he is a billionaire that just wants the spot light. In one mall here in Des Moines there is a lot of jobs that are not listed on jobdig.com Why not look for alternative reasons, or explore all possibilities of why the gap between classes has widened? Instead of course blaming the rich. Yes the rich do get to involved in politics and The fore Fathers warned us of that. This is bad, but you cannot blame a kids performance in a baseball game on his competitor,because the kids competitor is a better player. Look at morals,values,crime rates, work ethic, because those indeed do contribute more then the lack of jobs I assure you!
That is your reply? Really? Even after you told us that you can't get a job?
It is because of my own doing nim-rod I have a criminal record and many jobs wont hire me even factory, because of assaults. This is due to my own choices which make it harder for me! I don't blame the economy for my own choices or faults
'all of that doesn't matter' - the velocity of money absolutely matters. It is an economic indicator. Economists know this. If it didn't matter the Fed wouldn't bother tracking it. Economists wouldn't bother citing it. It absolutely matters. Just because you are ignorant of it doesn't mean it doesn't matter. It means you are ignorant.
'you are indeed fascist communist' - I'm a facist communist because I understand basic economics of supply and demand and the velocity of money? ok that's a good one.
'because you attempt to tell these rich people what they should do with their hard earned money' - I'm pointing out simple economics. The velocity of money. Not all spending is equally productive to the economy. High velocity = good economy. Low velocity = bad economy. Right now we have very low velocity. Have it any way you want it. I'm not the one out of work. You have a criminal record. That will make it harder to get a job for sure. But there are lots of people that don't have records, that can't get a job. There is only 1 job for every 5 persons looking for full employment.
'This whole thing is bitching about someone doing what they are suppose to do in a capitalist system' - I'm not bitching about anything. I just explained the velocity of money to you.
'Do you know how long the wealthy have been the wealthy and how long that it has been this way?' - Yes I do. The wealthy have gotten fabulously more wealthy over the past 30 years while middle class wages have stagnated. No it has not always been this way. This is a phenomena of the past 30 years. The level of wealth concentration at this time not been seen in over 100 years since the Gilded Age. Which was followed by the Great Depression. Yes, there has always been wealthy people. But not to this degree. Not by a longshot. It has absolutely not always been this way. You're absolutely wrong.
'Why are you trying to blame others for this situation?' - economic policy/tax policy/trade policy all affects outcomes and the workings of the economy. All of those things affects the health of the economy.
'This is a capitalist system is it not?' - we have a regulated form of mixed economy capitalism. Policies affect the workings of the economy.
'Are you for communism?' - no. Why would you think that? Just because I understand basic economics and the fact that I understand that policies affect the way the economy works, does not mean I'm a communist. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You're an idiot for not understanding basic economics and the fact that policies affect how the economy works. And whether the economy is working productively and is healthy or not healthy. It has nothing whatsoever to do with communism or capitalist. Dumbest thing I've ever heard.
'You guys' - I'm not 'you guys'. I'm one person. I have no idea what you're talking about.
'Why not look for alternative reasons, or explore all possibilities of why the gap between classes has widened' - there are hundreds if not thousands and thousands of economic papers, articles, books written about this. Some widely cited reasons - globalization, corporatocracy, plutocracy, regulatory capture, financialization of the economy - all of these things favors the wealthy. And is not necessarily healthy to the economy.
'but you cannot blame a kids performance in a baseball game on his competitor,because the kids competitor is a better player' - it's not about being a better player or worse player. It's more analogous to the umpire making all the close calls, and not so close calls, in favor of the players of one team over the other. This doesn't mean they are necessarily better players when they end up winning the game. It means the calls went in their favor.
'Look at morals,values,crime rates, work ethic, because those indeed do contribute more then the lack of jobs I assure you' - economic growth is slow. There is only 1 job for every 5 people looking. Those things do indeed contribute more than morals, values, crime rates, work ethic. I assure you. Peoples morals didn't just drop off a cliff and 10s of millions of people went collectively cuckoo all of a sudden! That is ridiculous. There has always been people with a lack of morals or high character. There has always been crime (though crime has been dropping for 30 years and is at record lows even through this recession). There has always been those with poor work ethics. None if this is new. It's the economy stupid. It's the policies that affect how the economy works.
I think there is something very wrong with you. You sound like a crazy person. Get some help.
no actually i am very sane. Most of what I am telling you is what I know and learned. That is capitalism. You guys are just stupid people. Funny I love capitalism , because it adheres to the laws of nature the strong survive and the weak perish. You guys are mental and probably will be losers the rest of your lives. like the guy who is retired sitting in his chair looking at statistics lol He has nothing else to live for but to make assumptions and stir up trouble, also trying to make the economy worse by spreading his bullshit. He probably is very lonely or bored. one of the 2. He should find a hobby
It has nothing to do with capitalism or not capitalism. It has to do with the policies being employed that affect the health of the economy.
You are stupid and simple minded and have next to zero understanding of even the most basic economic policies and principles and the affect they have on the economy.
You want shitty economic policy that is unhealthy for the economy and will directly affect your prospects for work and prosperity (crime record not withstanding), have it your way. I'm not the one looking for work. You are.
Capitalism does have something to do with it, because that is our economic systems. Big fish eat little fish. Look at capitalism it is based off of game theory. Capitalism focuses essentially on a persons greed. This does effect everything including the free trade agreement. Those Capitalist that run those companies started up factories in other countries to...what? cut cost and make more profit! lmfao you hippies are funny. This is what a true capitalist would do to make more money lmfao and also have you ever heard of lobbing? lmfao bunch of third graders I swear!
You clearly do not understand the first thing about capitalism. It is not about racing to the bottom of the wage scale and the wealthy and corporation lobbying for economic policies that favor them. Not any successful form of capitalism anyway. That is not the way to a successful and healthy economy.
About lobbying - ''When the regulation, therefore, is in support of the workman, it is always just and equitable; but it is sometimes otherwise when in favour of the masters.'' - Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations.
Henry Ford, a very successful capitalist, knew enough to pay his workers well so they could afford to buy the cars that they made. He understood economics and supply and demand. He understood that he needed demand for his supply of his cars. Otherwise, who would buy his cars? He didn't try to race to bottom of the wage scale and pay his workers the lowest possible wage rate he could get away with. You don't know the first thing about capitalism.
Would you like to know what Adam Smith said about the wealthy and taxation?
"It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."
Adam Smith was telling the government what the government should do with rich peoples money. Tax them at progressive rates. According to you, Adam Smith is a communist facist I suppose.
You don't know the first thing about capitalism.
But you know what. You keep thinking that you're going to get somewhere. Good luck on your race to the bottom of the wage scale. Oh wait. You're already at the bottom. You won't get much farther. The statistics, economic indicators and economic policies, none of them are in your favor. All of them are against you. Even if you didn't have a criminal record. You're one of those poor people that think you're just a temporarily embarrassed millionaire. And success and prosperity is just around the corner of hard work. But the fact is, all of the data says - you'll always be just where you are. But you go boy!!
Five Reasons Why The Very Rich Have NOT Earned Their Money
https://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/04/16
"no actually i am very sane."
That's what all the nuts are saying these days.
There's a whole congress full of them.
actually i think you guys must be the village idiots lmfao who cares what you think! lmfao losers!
That's because you are totally insane.
Too bad about the state of mental health care, sanity tends to be the first thing to go, and I doubt you will get a job that pays enough for you to get the therapy you need to return to some semblance sanity..
Sad really, what the (R)epelican'ts have done.
Do we have another determined hole digger? or Just a boring repeat.
Pete 'n' repeat.
They've become as boring as their repetitive, low info message.
Exactly - those in power are removed from our reality - they go off into their own world - and we become faceless resources - like a fuse -
Damn a fuse burnt out.
Well? Pop in a new one.
They are in their way Distanced from reality:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-way-that-people-are-schooled-to-develope-and-l/
And while overtime pay was meant to help compensate the worker for lost - Life Time - it was also intended to make the employer limit using overtime due to cost - so that workers could have a life.
Like they care.
As far as they're concerned.......We don't need a life.
Makes for a good tweet
The Tea Party Propaganda Video You Need To Be Aware Of (VIDEO TRAILER) http://p.ost.im/p/eXQQLY via @AddInfoOrg Purveyors of Austerity
What else can they do to "defend" stuff like this.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/05/10/boehner-bankruptcy-bill-china-veterans-soldiers-no-pay/
Michele Bachmann Thinks 9/11 And Benghazi Terrorist Attacks Are Judgments From God
Read more: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/05/10/michele-bachmann-911-and-benghazi-attacks-were-punishments-orchestrated-by-god-video/#ixzz2SwZsxuG7
Conservative Co-Author Of Immigration Report: Hispanics and Their Offspring Genetically Dumber Than Whites
Read more: http://www.addictinginfo.org/#ixzz2Swa8891U
That's just a part-----------of ONE days worth!!!!!
So all they can do is act like Rush, Glenn, or any number of other distractive liars.
That is their method of operation. Even to blatantly lying about efforts they have blocked - when they "THEY" even had just announced on TV that this was what they were doing.
While we're on the subject of unions, one of the benefits they brought us, was overtime pay.
The GOP is now out to get rid of that too.
The first shot has been fired, and you know they won't stop until they get what ALEC wants.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/05/09/advocate-gop-backed-workplace-flexibility-bill-is-designed-to-kill-overtime-pay/
And it is all double speak as they blame others for their own actions.
Right now in office - who are the purveyors of Austerity/Democide the Corp(se)oRATists/Republicans.
The supporters of greed and unemployment or minimum wage employment - Corp(se)oRATists/Republicans.
The deniers of Global Warming - the pollution tech fossil fuel supporters - Corp(se)oRATists/Republicans
Don't worry, some democrat will do or say one dumb thing, and you will be fully expected to consider it at the same level as this (R)epelican't onslaught of libe(R)tarian legislation, written while they play games with shit like this.
As if it gives them a clean slate.
It doesn't.
Their message = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwAcr-S1LSw
I was thinkin' more along the lines of this.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/03/16/the-tea-party-propaganda-video-you-need-to-be-aware-of-video-trailer/
They are pretty twisted though.........................:)
Nice wall of text - real reader friendly - NOT.
Luxury purchases by the rich are incapable of driving an economy to prosperity for many reasons. For one the demand for luxuries is not high enough. And then there is the fact that you are talking about luxuries instead of essentials.
And most importantly the industries have left the country seeking lower labor so we do not benefit. And the workers don't benefit either due to the lack of workers rights and low wages in those other countries.
Lastly, I find your exhortations to "get a job" absurd given your difficulties finding employment. Are you unable to understand the predicament you are in?
Think about this one bill "The free trade agreement"...... I am in my predicament because of my own doing. I have a criminal record. My choices and actions are what makes it harder for me to succeed not the economy
That may well be true - but what would be hard to accomplish in a good economy - becomes damn near impossible in a bad economy - and the economy is very very bad at this very moment in time.
There are still jobs correct? Even here in Des Moines I got interviews forvery good jobs with my resume, but when they found out about my criminal record I got shafted. No it isn't dam near impossible that is the type of mentality that leads to extended poverty or of course procrastination and making up excuses.People love to blame something else for their own down falls. Even in a good economy it would be hard because a lot of places have rules against hiring people with assaults. I missed out on a job in Spencer when I lived there..a sales job that I would've have made 40-50k a year on my projected performance, because of my criminal record I got shafted
try applying for a govt job,....................criminal records and criminal activity are a resume enhancement.
I have the feeling that you are bull shitting me! I detect bullshit my good sir! lol Maybe post office as a mall sorter and truck loader? I know UPS is hiring and I need to get on applying there.
Man where have U been - U just get out ? and not been following what passes for news these days? - Because even from the spin that is printed or broadcast from MSM - it is still easy to see - that the available jobs are mostly minimum wage - and minimum wage is not a living wage - unless you work so many hours - that work becomes the only aspect of your life = Work - eat - sleep Work - eat - sleep Work - eat - sleep Work - eat - sleep Work - eat - sleep Work - eat - sleep 24/7/365
DKAtoday how about you use your computer? with- in 5 miles of coon rapids, mn there are over 1,000 jobs posted on this site and over 30,000 25 miles away from coon rapids,mn http://www.indeed.com/l-Coon-Rapids,-MN-jobs.html Get you some!
I myself am retired - but those 1,000 minimum wage and part time jobs and those other area positions? They have tens of thousands of applicants of which better than 70% would be woefully under employed. Also many of those advertised positions? - they are not hiring - honest - job listings where the business is not even hiring - thousands of applicants and no hires.
Don't believe me?
Go to some of your area unemployment offices. If you drive - good luck getting a parking spot.
Bahaha!!!!! No actually the Iowa work force is not packed at all times lol So you looked at all 1000? you are quick! Fast draw Mc Draw here lol I actually have been getting about 2-3 interviews a week from jobdig.com, which is in fact a lot like indeed.com based off of my resume. You are assuming and you are retired? lol This just even gets better is there any scientific problem solving approach to your methods or is it all based off of assumptions? You are just propaganda to my eyes at this point. I should ignore you,because nothing you say is factual!
Ditto - though there are reports to back up my position - I am done talking to your lame ass.
actually you are pretty lame get a hobby old man. lol It really isn't factual! I know that for a fact that is ok you and your stinkle party here can go jobless and be losers, while you cling on to a dying and other words pathetic hippy movement
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Ur employer is no doubt paying U way too much for being a forum shill.
The news seriously? lmfao the only real minimum wage job here are fast-food and even then sometimes they hire you just above minimum wage lol Your logic is flawed you just don't have the ambition to work harder. lol before this economic situation did you get a good paying job that was less then 40 hours a week? lol wow my generation sucks!!!!
You make my argument for me.
It was bad before the meltdown and it is worse now.
And their are millions unemployed from the meltdown who have run out of unemployment insurance - all trying to get the same job (s).
I just posted a site that dis proves you lazy bones! I didn't because before all of this to make a good living you had to work 30-40 hours a weeks depending upon job,experience and ect sorry but your argument is kind of pointless
Your arguments do not include reality - the reality of how many people are out of work - how many of those out of work are considered over qualified ( yes over qualified ) for the job - getting those jobs that are available would not keep a roof over their heads with out county state or federal aid.
Yes I have but in certain states according to the consumer reporting act some employers have to tell you why you didn't get hired, if it applies to criminal record which that was what that post that you replied you idiotic attempt to regain some type of dignity was about. I actually just read that in a brochure I got when applying at the temp agency for a 10/hr wells fargo job yes a bank loser and one you should be familiar with lmfao yes I have heard of that. Iowa is an at will state so i have heard about that lmfao loser old hippy
http://occupywallst.org/article/artists-demand-fair-labor-standards/#comment-969012
oh how does that burn DKAtoday? you are a loser lmfao!!!!! I am not working right now lol I am actually getting a good laugh at this. loser hippies go smoke your drugs and rape your sisters. There is a such thing as state to state here in Iowa the consumer reporting act doesn't cover that lol I am only able to obtain a copy of the records, not know why the employer didn't hire me, if it was according to criminal record or anything else really obtained on that report. That post has no bearing Iowa is an at will state they can fire you with-in 90 days without reason, I f I read this will I find that they are similar? Because 90 day in iowa is when you are able to draw unemployment.....btw I worked at K-mart in detroit lakes,mn when I was 18 and living in Rochert,MN. I am not ignorant to that sorry
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Actually about being over qualified, check the state laws, because sometimes the employer doesn't have to be straight up and honest about why they didn't hire you. Actually I was reading today that in certain states they have to tell you that it is because of your criminal record, but the rest not. Where are these facts you speak of from? I was told that I was over qualified for mediacom, but found out otherwise, because my sister works there and personally asked them. It was because of criminal record. You can take what i am saying or be lazy and worthless to society your choice. All that i see here is excuses upon excuses. You guys will be the ones without a job when the news is saying that the economy recovered and everyone else took the jobs lol
Ever hear of Right To Work Legislation? [ ALEC ] In the states that have It ( Minnesota Wisconsin Michigan to name a few ) it gives the employer total control - the legislation is titled in double speak - as it comes down to - the right to fire without cause - so - with that kind of legislation in place - What in the Hell do you think it does to workers rights (?) - it destroys them.
I am done talking to U.
You might want to check out the difference between "apart" and "a part", my college student friend.
Oh wait that is how I type apart lol oh well. I type it that way who cares? I am not an english major or going to be a writing teacher. I am in collage for computer science and I have been up all night doing work. I have a interview at 9am, actually working to try and make a change.
so are you a grammar nazi? lol my space bar doesn't work right. It is in deed broken,because I am poor. Thank you for not having anything intelligent to say other then correcting my grammar. lol It is really because I am poor. I just haven't gotten around to fixing it lol
Two responses, and two separate explanations. Your space bar works fine.
Are you apart from the solution? Or a part of the solution?
Deserves a repeat.
I'd still like to know why he keeps coming back here.
It's like groundhog day. Only even more repetitive.
Paid to fuck with the site? Wannabe Corp(se)oRATist? Obsessed/Deranged?
Definitely afraid of what change we may be able to inspire.
Did you note the attacks aimed at tweeting information? Put downs. I think it was in response to this post -
http://occupywallst.org/article/congress-still-corporate-still-criminal-still-capt/
There have been some good posts and conversations happening. They always attack when things start getting good here. I also think that the ALEC protest threw em for a loop. Got em unsettled.
I'm jousting with some pretend libeRtaRians on another site. The ALEC misinformation and coverup machine has them spinning loops and stripping cogs, left, right, and centre.
They would probably love this one as well:
I wanted to make sure you saw Aaron's message this morning about the fantastic news: the highly respected Rothenberg Report named Rep. Bachmann one of the most vulnerable incumbents in the country.
Apparently, this news has gotten Rep. Bachmann very worried (as it should!). She immediately tried to make her own headlines in order to distract us from the trouble she's in.
As the Huffington Post, Salon, and others are now reporting:
"Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn., said Wednesday that the attacks on 9/11 and in Benghazi were “judgments” from God. “It’s no secret that our nation may very well be experiencing the hand of judgment,” she said at a D.C. prayer event called “Washington: A Man of Prayer" ... ""Our nation has seen judgment not once but twice on September 11,” she continued." (Salon, May 10th)
As Jim's campaign manager in 2012, I became all too accustomed to seeing this disturbing pattern of behavior. When Rep. Bachmann feels the pressure, she simply ramps up her inflammatory rhetoric. But rhetoric isn't going to solve the problems facing our nation, and the people of MN's 6th District know it!
Now is the time to act. We can’t wait. And we’re so close to our goal, just $2,046 away. Click here to rush $10 in the next 2 hours to help defeat Rep. Bachmann.
Thank you so much for your support.
Adam Graves
well actually no my space bar doesn't work fine. lol here, you can pick on this guys grammar http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/12/04/was-nazi-science-good-science/ ...... part of a solution the people in this article seem to be mad that they are not receiving hand outs anymore correct? You can't solve a problem like the wall street movement tries to. seriously camping on people's property can we grow up?
You seem to be a little bit behind the times.
The troll invasion happened over a year ago.
As for the occupation of Zucotti park, beginning September 17th, 2011, the occupiers recently won a court battle claiming damages for the destruction of property during their eviction.
Are you inferring that the #ows movement was a complete waste of time?
Yes 100 percent. Public opinion dropped thanks to the drugs,rapes,crimes that were committed at the occupy wall street movement and I also really do question was there notice,permit and was everything legal with the occupy Oakland protest where all of the protesters got arrested got arrested? This was back in 2011. That is not a win,if it doesn't do anything. Yes I am a bit behind the times. I just watch some anonymous videos here and there. I don't get involved, after what happened the Wall Street movement
Then you've reached a conclusion.
Why are you here now?
I was wondering if people were actually still doing this.lol Are you apart of the Occupy Movement? Then I read those comments and really felt compelled to comment.
I want affordable health care, and a raise for the little guy....
Corporations made a record $824 billion in profits last year as well, while the stock market has had one of its best performances since 1900 while Obama has been in office.
Meanwhile, workers are getting the short end of the stick. As CNN Money explained, “a separate government reading shows that total wages have now fallen to a record low of 43.5% of GDP. Until 1975, wages almost always accounted for at least half of GDP, and had been as high as 49% as recently as early 2001.”
http://www.nationofchange.org/corporate-profits-hit-record-high-while-worker-wages-hit-record-low-1354554553
Ok, I'm drunk. The US GDP is $15.7 trillion in 2012,[1]. If the US Federal Budget was $3 T or $3.5 Trillion... Wages would not be 43%.of GDP or $6.75 Trillion Dollars.
Well any way... Total Compensation is probably the number to compare to GDP.
Total population in work force = 155.028 million (includes 11.742 mil. unemployed, March 2013)[6] Total US Income = Revenues $2.45 trillion Looks like $15,803 dollars a year average income per American.
Hey, Somebody tell me why the US Revenues in 2012 was like a sixth of the value of the US GDP???? I don't like these numbers from Wikipedia.
I was going to look at the US wage rate in comparison to US GDP. So I still have to learn,
Hit me back tomorrow ... maybe I'll forward it on to a buddy to do a common sense test.
Right now... Total wages would be higher than Government wages... and Executive wages are sky high. Figure 315,828,000 people total US population...
If you believe official numbers then average US Wage is $48K. Which I don't see based on other numbers.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD
How does a 6.5 drop effect us? Is this at all effected by the unemployment rate? Well do your research if you want a raise it isn't handed to you. You have to ask for it and earn it!
after 5 years of freeze, I may get my 2 percent, Yippee
I'd like others to get a raise too.
A 6.5 drop means now it takes 2 workers in family to bring home what it took 1 earner previously. Basically, wages have fallen dramatically, while corporations and their owners have raked in greater profits, which they save in the offshore lock boxes.
http://moneymorning.com/2013/05/01/check-out-whos-hiding-32-trillion-in-offshore-accounts/
This site is here for information dissemination, primarily.
Those of us who cannot attend ongoing #ows meetings or protests can share their support here on these pages.
Have you some information that you would like to share?
The above,swat5, is yet another permutation of tr@shy, the #3 disinformation specialist on this forum.
He's having a hard shift, LOL!
Only #3? He's slipping, GK.
yea looks like we do have a conspiracy theorist here! This is my first time on here and most of what you guys talk about is politically incorrect garbage!
Nope, not me. Again, you make false accusations without evidence. You've sadly become nothing more than a lame conspiracy theorist. Assumptions on top of assumptions.
Yes I did already share it. I pointed out the flaw in your guys logic. I wonder what personality type you guys are. Probably not really thinking personality types, usually they don't post illogical post such as the posts that you guys made regarding rich people. I would have to guess you at some sort of blue personality, which is feeling over thinking. Dis-informed and how is your guy's posts exactly informed? You people seem to be emotionally charged over not getting hand outs and then blaming everyone else instead of working for your future. Plus, the content sounds a lot like you guys are communist. Sad, but true
I'm not "you guys". I'm merely pointing out to you, that while you claim to have already reached a conclusion about the #ows movement, and casually assess this site as a waste of time, you find yourself committed to coming back here, on a regular basis, to basically say the same things all over again.
Groundhog day.
for most people, yes they would not bust their ass at jobs they hate. but then again wouldn't they be more free to pursue the things in this world they have a genuine passion for??? you have to understand for some people they get off on intellectual endeavor for other it is physical activity. there is not a job on the planet that someone doesn't enjoy doing. the exception of course are the jobs that are repetitive tasks and these can all be automated. we don't really need people toiling in the fields now do we. by using proper technique and technology those kind of labor intensive jobs can be eliminated.
U think money is the only driving force in life??? Wow.
people use money to pay their bills. what do you use?
What does that have to do with your comment -
In reply to this comment -
crossing guards making the same amount of money as cardiac surgeons doesnt bring about pride ,it brings apathy.
So - You "ARE" saying that money is the only Driving force in life. Wow - still as sad as the 1st time you expressed it.
BTW - ever consider that a cardiac surgeon who got into the field for interest in it - would make a better surgeon than someone who went into the field for the paycheck?
you cant be a surgeon just because you want to be one, you have to have a talent and skill for it.
No Shit - as well as the intelligence. So what does that have to do with anything?
Thanks DKAtoday,
I truly believe equal pay for everyone, top to bottom/ side to side, will bring out the best of the best in people.
But it is a theory which needs to be proven.
It would/could go a long way towards proper pricing - as everyone would be in the same financial situation.
Yes, and if we were all in the same financial situation , could civilization still accomplish great things ? Could we still "go to the moon?" can we still have exploration in the sciences and the arts.. can we still make discoveries .. will we be encouraged to improve our lives ?
I don't see why not - humanity has drives - interests - curiosity. Money is not the only driving force - and it seems to be a selfish drive - so unhealthy as well.
But this is the question we must ask .. a very important part in designing a well functioning society. We must have the desire in our hearts to improve our lives and the world around us .. something which can be affected by improper economics.. looking at many lessons .. Will equal pay create a world of fairness ..and joy in the hearts of people .. a joy that will give strength and happiness .. and with this new strength and happiness will equal pay than resolve many of the downtrodden issues we see today in the poorer classes of society.. where no matter how hard they try they never get a chance to use the silver spoon.. so this just breaks the will and hearts of those at the borttom .. they give up .. they become what society considers a burden .. even though it is the ways of society that have created this 'burden' we do not see it like that .. we see it as a .. trait of the poor .. they failed because they are failures .. not because they have been broken by a hopeless system.
sorry .. rambling a bit..
Going back to the original thought.. Can mankind accomplish great things without the individual success of great wealth .. if this were reversed and all mankind shared in the successes would we be better off as in now where only a few enjoy the successes of civilization ?
Possible but 1st greed/selfishness needs to be addressed as a mental health issue - recognized and treated as an aberrant condition. Positive Dreams/Ambitions for society need to be fed. No goal = no planning/drive to get there.
With equal pay all rewards of success will be distributed fairly, but this does not fully remove the rewards of individual and community effort.. it joins the efforts and we become all in on the success or failure of the community. what goals the community may set is entirely up the people of the community. The resources and management of resources must be carefully scrutinized to achieve maximum potential .. considering the outcome will effect everyone in the community.
Will the mass majority currently earning less pay work harder and achive greater things .. if they were given equal pay ?
A community/society should feel like family a large extended family. Who cares about pay if you can afford to live well. No financial worries and one can put their energy elsewhere - like into achievements that can benefit all or just being happy in what they are doing - because the stress has been removed.
You may have a point, but the flip side of that thought breeds apathy too. What type of pride does a laborer have when a whole work force makes as much money as one upper management position? Though your what if is a thought experiment, my what if is reality.
no education needed for being a farm laborer. being a plumber requires education. being a CFO requires years of education. people with different skill sets earn different salaries. a cfo cant do what a plumber does and a plumber cant do what a cfo does but both can do farm labor. the remuneration should be different.
I never argued that the remuneration should be equal. I just argued that the current situation is exploitative to the lower echelon and creates entitled little half wits out of the higher echelon.
You may argue that paying low educated people too much is bad for America, but I believe that paying those on the top two hundred times more than the lower does more damage because it creates pretentious princes who become too full of them selves to sympathize with others. Go take take your wealth worshiping somewhere else, please.
pretentiousness depends on the character( or lack of character) of a person, not the money they make.
So - you support a class-ist society.
there are economic levels. always will be. even in communist countries,..there are those that have , and those that dont.
Why does there have to be? There really is no good reason to support such a system.
there is no utopia, and there never will be. you cannot change human nature.
Laws Prevent Crime, not stop Crime, Fraud, Control Fraud, Giving Gifts to Congress, Wealthy Interests Capturing congress and the Regulatory Agencies, Revolving Door From Industry to Government, Revolving Door from Government Regulator to Industry it Regulates, and hidden off Shore Trust Accounts in return for Favors.
Laws could prevent Decapitalization of US Industry.
Laws could prevent Pilfering of Public Pension Funds & Retirement Funds. It should be illegal to provide a Bonus to an Executive who has proved to have sold Junk or a Zombie Fund to a Public Pension or Retirement Fund. In fact we should prosecute Executives that arrange for the Pilfering of Public Funds, Public Contracts, and Retirements.
If a US Investment Bank Sold AAA Rated Junk to a Foreign Country, Public Foreign Pension, or Foreign Citizen that can cause an International Incident or War... Clearly this should be held to a standard and prosecuted as a Traitorous act at some point. Clearly few people understood derivatives would contain mortgages that were sold multiple times in multiple Tranches for instance.
I think there is a lot of Room to talk about Treason for huge Systemic Risk ... or Willful Negligence in preventing Fraud. Most like this would just be handled as Control Fraud and Negligence Suits.
But first we have to prosecute people that rigged the Court System. This is truly Treasonous.
Support Regulating Private Banks, Standardizing Derivatives, Regulating Derivatives, Standardizing Off Balance Sheet Transactions, Banning Shell Corporations/Companies, and Bringing Conservative Business Practices back to US Banks and Corporations.
Exactly - well said - give em all Madoff makeovers - from riches to rags to prison ( not no stinken country club ). And Treason is in no way far fetched - it is exactly what has gone on in many instances. In government the courts and in business.
Renneye shared a very good term -and it does apply - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
Thanx, Seems lawyers R light years ahead of us in any scandal or crisis or bail out. They strategize to prevent "Clawback" which could lead to congressmen or press from finding whistleblowers.
Strategy meetings beat voters, unions, consumers, investors & watchdogs. Remember Investors of all kinds get screwed as well. Strategy might be that they bailout bond holders.
Customer Advocacy Groups have to get in front of Lawyers and congressional Reviews.
This means that congressional staff of honest congress has to coordinate with grass root groups... maybe like you, Zendog, Bensdad, and others.... Freshmen in congress have to find the time to strategize with consumer or grass roots or watchdog groups.
This may mean delaying congress hearings... I don't know.
Illegal activity precludes fulfilling a contract for salary, bonus, retirement package, or severance.
Bill K. Black is still the guru here I guess.
Money is the weapon here.
Compensation is what motivates people to keep their mouth shut. We don't like change. So we will keep quiet if we get money.
Incentives can be perverse. Write Law that punishes Fraud.
Punish Systemic Treason. Please.
Definitely Not with your attitude.
We are not trying to change human nature, although a happy person generally is a kinder person than a mean person. can happiness be instilled upon a persons nature? was Thomas Jefferson chasing rainbows when he wrote his famous quote"pursuit of happiness" ..
With all the death and destruction caused by wars brought on by human greed for power and control .. I can see why you may think human nature will never change.. even though we have the technology to place a man on the moon .. it hasn't prevented war.. so what will ? What will create a society/civilization of peace? Will it be a fair and equal distribution of wealth, will it be opportunity for everyone to pursue their passions.. Can we atleast try ..and see if equality will be accepted and flourish in civilization.. it has never been tried .. throughout civilization there has alwauys been an unequal distribution of wealth and power .. a tremendous unbalance of lives .. and hardship.. to the present day ..millions upon million suffer extreme human conditions.. right now as we discuss the fate of mankind.. as you casually shrug off the ideas brought forth of a better tomorrow .. like a sentinel blocking all chance of passing new laws and ideas .. We will have to break you .. since you are unwilling to reason .. and we do not do it for our selves , but for tomorrows people.. We will have to break you .. and forgive ourselves .. we will have to break you and justify ourselves .. and let the future of mankind be our judge of our actions .. Mr Elite .. since your adamant refusal of fairness.. we must break you .
while you have the right to pursue happiness there is no guarantee that you will achieve it.
I guarantee, " Equality and Fairness in the distribution of Wealth will achieve Happiness."
I have to strongly disagree.
I am capable of training for all the positions you mentioned.. possibly even cardiac surgeons. So why should I be paid more for one than the other.. ? If I am paid to study in the profession of my choice ..and proven ability.. and follow my passions .. whteher it be a career in agriculture [ which may have the highest social value] or medicine.. the remuneration should remain the same.. all positions are valuable .. and of course the beauty of this, many people and many interests .. all fields and professions should be covered..
Let me just comment on a cardiac surgeon. Medicine is a practice , a study of how patients respond to certain medicine and operations.. a group study usually.. where information and results are passed along amongst collegues. And during serious operations , many memebers of the team are present.. too see a succersful operation .. The whole process takes knowledge and experience to perform. Like any other profession. But to consider Cardiac surgery difficult ..? sure it can be , and so can splinting back together a shattered pelvis .. there is no denying the complications involved.
It is easy to lose thought and direction at times .. the idea of individual pride in ones accomplishments has a value we do no longer recognize as Capitalists. In fact it has absolutely no value . And is removed from the equation of Capitalist success. After all when you buy an item and sell it for profit .. where would the feeling of pride come from? And to use monery to encourage the poor man to do the rich mans work is another cut to the pride of the nation.. pride becomes shame.
I believe equality may set this right.
there are more people that can be farm laborers than can be sugeons. how about baseball pitchers, many want to be one but very few are capable. nearly everyone can throw a ball but very, very few can throw it at 90+ miles an hour with accuracy.
not every professional pitcher throws 90 and accurate. not even close.
no, they dont , but its average and the ACCURACY. if they are not accurate most of the time, they are not playing professional baseball.
once again you are wrong. there have in fact been major league players who were very erratic and in the minor leagues forget about it.
they are paid to play but they make no where what guys in the majors make. they make a few thousand a month , give or take, in the majors, minimum salary is about $500,000 per year.
they stay in the minors,......not good enough for the pros.
the minors are the pros. they are professionally paid athletes. some make millions and spend their entire careers in the minor leagues. you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
if they're erratic, they are no longer in the line up. if they're in the minors, they dont stay there for long.
they spend whole careers in the minors. are you really this ill informed on the american past time?
What do you have against a society/civilization that allows everyone an equal opportunity to develop their own personal potential , passion, and interests?
And why do you feel the worldwould be so much better off if everyone could throw a baseball at 90+ mph ?
i believe that everyone has an equal opportunity to pursue what they want to , but not everyone has equal ambiton, drive, intelligence and talent. there is no guarantee of equal outcome.
Not everyone has equal opportunity. That's simply not true. Some people come from very poor family's, some people get sick. A socialist type country would give people more of an equal starting point. US is all about every man for himself. In that context, equal opportunity just doesn't exist.
[Removed]
if you stay on school, you can learn. you can learn what you have an affinity for and what you want to do with your life. in case you havent heard, socialism is a failure.
Socialism is no failure. The countries doing best in the world are mostly socialist. Some people can't afford schools, some can only afford bad ones.
http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/children-out-of-school
Let's compare with a more socialist country, Canada.
http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/SE.PRM.UNER/compare?country=us#country=ca:us
i think from childhood we should all be pushed to be polymaths. it is all in how material is delivered. if my teachers had explained to me the possible applications of calculus and algebra then i think i would have been much more interested. school is done all wrong. they need a hands on interactive multimedia approach with lots of technology and field trips. it needs to be 6 weeks on 2 weeks off year round. the day needs to divide up into multiple hour sections depending on courses some courses may require multiple blocks per-day. also there is no shame in failing the stigma attached to academic failure needs to be removed sometimes it takes a time or two through a class for a person not completely focused to comprehend material in stem classes especially since it is all sequential.perhaps it needs to focus on a hand on approach introducing and enforcing the fundamentals of english, math, science, social studies, art, music, practical home and business skills, and trades. also education should be free for life and if you are an adult and return to school fulltime you should receive a stipend for rent and living expenses enough to cover everything.
Interesting comment - yes the approach/method/procedure of education should be geared towards real world application - as well as presented as a tool for analysis of thoughts/ideas/concepts to be made real and analyze existing systems/processes for improvement or replacement - to instill an attitude of continuous process improvement. Respect and love for the environment should also be tied into the educational effort - to feed a driving force of developing clean/non-toxic processes. As well as great attention paid to social awareness, good moral values, when looking at others - an awareness and appreciation of others...........
Sorry. I was gonna make a short complimentary statement. But it turned out as wanting to be more.
If we were all in this together , and the production of society was equally and fairly distributed , there would be much greater concern with the education of our children, and the over effectiveness of efficiency. Though I believe we all have a variety of differences in our strengths and weaknesses .. as eterna points out below .. someone may have the ability to throw a baseball 90+ mph.. while others may excel in mathematics .. or Science .. It is these abilities that we all posess individually that will be the final outcome of mankind if they are nurtured and allowed to develop.. in a world where equality is given to all abilities .. even if it is only the pride and satisfaction a janitor may feel in keeping a sparkling clean bathroom.. [ a very admirable ability] and much appreciated. We all have something to offer something to pursue in ways of passions and abilities.
Education, is in part of what ideas consist of ..
Thanks for your comment and obvious concern.
you mean "the custodial arts". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxD8SLyOCHE
Equality of what? Opportunity or outcome? Ability? Tell me about how you can spread ability around 'equally'.....
Money hurts pride? OK. Let's use something different to reward ability (unless you have figured out how to take that out of the equation of life...) What would you replace money with?
You are not being very realistic OR practical in my eyes. Educate me, please.
Realistic ..or practical ..
First a system of credit is necessary to accomplish a successful civilization.. yes money is a credit.. you are credited for your efforts which later you can use tyhose credits to make purchases of your choice.. we all have necessities in life ie food shelter clothing.. etc.. credits and purchases.. not trying to remove this.
But, when a salesperson sells a $200,000 home and recieves 5% = $10,000 , and a farmer works all year growing a crop and harvesting and to market , and earns as much as the house sales team .. in just a few simple sales .. something is terribly off balance on how we determine credit for effort?
We were discussing a profession requiring many years of schooling verses a low educated profession.
The question being asked :
If the Medical students were paid an equal pay for all their time in schooling and study .. should they be entitled to an increased pay [ above lower trained professions ] ? It's a serious question .. and if you are looking for failure in this and not success , .. than it will show in your next response ..
wealth is earned , NOT distributed. wealth pays the bills but does guarantee happiness.
Wealth is often distributed. I know a few friends who got millions from their parents who had big companies. That's distribution of wealth. Not everyone needs to work hard to make money. If you get a nice inheritance, then you can invest in funds and get dividends. That's another form of distribution. I knew one guy who made 20,000$ a month doing basically nothing.
they inherited money that some in their family earned. EARNED,.
Yes, one person at one point earns it, but then it can be redistributed. The UK still has money left over from its conquests 200 years ago. Sometimes money is also stolen, laundered, etc... There are many ways that money is passed from one person to the next. It is not always earned.
why should family money be given away? it belongs to the family.
I never said it should be given away. I was simply correcting you in your false assumption that money was always earned. The fact that money passes from one generation to the next in a family is solid evidence that not all people start on equal footing like you were stating earlier. Some start really rich.
you said " one person at one point earns it, BUT THEN IT CAN BE REDISTRIBUTED". that means given away.
Your point?
Capitalists like to place a price tag on everything. An artist, as what this post original thought encompases, adds quality to life using creation and joy.. emotions and wit. An artist is one of mankinds true pleasures. Art can be found in many forms; in a beautiful painting or neatly landscaped front lawn. Art is found in all professions. And I fear the money / wealth system has hampered the beauty of Art in so many many places.
Artists should evoke Article 1 Section 8 of the United States Constitution. It is an imperative that Congress support the arts as a means of enriching our culture. But sadly, the Constitution is only used when it suites them.
The Constitution is just a stepping stone.. We will be taking another step soon.
the people that did the fabulous cave paintings in france and spain did it without government help.they did it without a money/wealth system.
Well, I am not advocating we remove government and all move back into caves.. by no means.
I personally enjoy the modernization that have come with the development of civilization.
The one problem we as a civilization face today, is the unfair distribution of wealth. We can not all enjoy civilization equally due to this unfair practice of Capitalist rules and regulations. We need to make an improvement in Society. for all shall be considered equal and share in the wealth and the glory of our accomplishments.. equally.
wealth isnt distributed, its earned, even if its inherited,...someone earned the original money. all people are not equal in intelligence, talent, drive and ambition.
Then explain how this sixteen trillion dollars was "earned".
http://www.forbes.com/sites/traceygreenstein/2011/09/20/the-feds-16-trillion-bailouts-under-reported/
Citigroup: $2.5 trillion ($2,500,000,000,000) Morgan Stanley: $2.04 trillion ($2,040,000,000,000) Merrill Lynch: $1.949 trillion ($1,949,000,000,000) Bank of America: $1.344 trillion ($1,344,000,000,000) Barclays PLC (United Kingdom): $868 billion ($868,000,000,000) Bear Sterns: $853 billion ($853,000,000,000) Goldman Sachs: $814 billion ($814,000,000,000) Royal Bank of Scotland (UK): $541 billion ($541,000,000,000) JP Morgan Chase: $391 billion ($391,000,000,000) Deutsche Bank (Germany): $354 billion ($354,000,000,000) UBS (Switzerland): $287 billion ($287,000,000,000) Credit Suisse (Switzerland): $262 billion ($262,000,000,000) Lehman Brothers: $183 billion ($183,000,000,000) Bank of Scotland (United Kingdom): $181 billion ($181,000,000,000) BNP Paribas (France): $175 billion ($175,000,000,000) and many many more including banks in Belgium of all places
That was just the 15 Largest Banks... The list of institutions that received the most money from the Federal Reserve can be found on page 131 of the GAO Audit and are as follows..
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2825696/posts
View the 266-page GAO audit of the Federal Reserve (July 21st, 2011): http://www.scribd.com/doc/60553686/GAO-Fed-Investigation Source: http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-11-696 FULL PDF on GAO server: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11696.pdf Senator Sander’s Article: http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3
You know we are talking about Cirtical Thinking lately... and this info about the Bailouts was Spun so much, and Right WIng shills have lied about it so much... Really hard to keep 100% straight unless we write everyday.
Look at the total bailouts for Europe... Does it seem likely that there almost could have been a US European War if the US Didn't provide Bailouts??
And of course we advised them... "we be sure and us this opportunity to drive down savings, pensions, retirements, wages, and pass off the Debt to someone else..." as if they need to be told.
That for posting this Total $16 Trillion again. I thought Bloomberg Spreadsheets had totaled like $22 Trillion (or more), but no longer can find the links would have been after December 2011, I think. Probably have it on one of my Posts.
Does the definition of earned now come with a picture of a vacuum cleaner? Or a picture of a guy getting pick pocketed.
Or a picture of "linden" with her/his head in the sand?
Unbelievable how this kind of uninformed person still turns up here to play ball.
Ah the shills are like moths - drawn to the flame - being idiots they try to shit on the light - and get burned.
If you consider most companies can only survive because of the loopholes and other corporate welfare schemes, then your premise is wrong. Wealth is distributed, and it is distributed straight to the top, in hopes that they will create jobs. Would the financial industry survived '08 if our nation did not distribute them TARP?
with equal pay, wealth will be earned ..equally. Compared to now, where wealth is not earned equally , many struggle to survive through hard work .. while others hardly work at all and have huge piles of wealth ..
I will try to convince you of how wrong the current distribution of wealth is, I will just say one day we will have equal wealth distribution.
" wealth distribution" key phrase of the progressives.
do you really think someone with the drive and determination to be a surgeon is doing it exclusively for pay? again these are the arguments of those who would never be surgeons. there is this thing called an ego and some people have to feed it and no matter what the pay rate is being a surgeon will always be a professional position and thus a position of status. precisely because of the effort it takes to attain. don't underestimate what an animal will do for status. before there was money there was status. look at other great apes. their communities all function on status. it's endemic to all warm blooded social animals.
I want to let you in on a little secret. Surgeons like what they do, but they do it for the money. Go to any surgical conference and spend an hour in the bar afterward. The ONLY topics is production income/their fancy vacations/new toy and maybe what nurse they are boning.
Surgery is too tough, too intense to do for cheap money.
please don't make me laugh i have more professionals in my family than average american by far.
Well I am a surgeon and yes we talk money. And you dont have more than me. In my direct immediate family, I have 6 MDs. Take it out a bit and I have 3 DDS's, 2 Vets, 2 optometrists. Take it to a family reunion, all sides, I might have 35.
I belong to several medical affiliates. We talk about production and money and income ALL THE TIME. We talk about low re imbursement, dropping Medicare/Medicaid, which procedures are the most lucrative, which insurances pay the best.
Dont make me laugh, you dont have a clue.
you are so full of shit. you are no surgeon. but hey lie if you want to. i am jewish however so don't make me laugh. there is not an adult over 35 in my family who is not a professional. truth.
And they all talk money, amongst themselves. Everyone talks money.
once again not true. we talk politics, kids, sports, possibly vacations but never money.
Thanks for sharing with us.
We all at some point are working for money .. after all it is money we need to purchase the necessities in life.. I am not opposed to this.. It's the idea that one profession desrves more than any other profession that I have a trouble with.. whtether you be it a doctor or a lawyer or a mechanic.. , the time and skill required and effort is unique to ech profession .. it's really kinda like comparing apples and oranges .. but with only one similiarity .. time.. an hour of a doctors time , or an hour of a lawyers timer , or an hour of a janitors tiem.. is all equal .. and all are human beings performing a required necessary /needed duty.. and yes there are far more janitors than doctors or lawyers .. and fewer of some professions than others .. , and not all people will be/ are interested in the same careers .. surely on this we agree.. and yes the schooling required to become certain professions is a huge investment.. and rightfully deserves a higher pay .. for the pay back of the investment /schooling expense alone... but what if we take this expense out of the equation .. what if we pay for all schooling expenses by the community , and the only requirement by the student to pursue a chosen career of interest is through proven ability .. for example .. if society determines a need for twelve brain surgeons .. forty janitors and six lawyers .. and ten people show up to be lawyers .. well than the top six will be allowed to pursue an education in law.. and keep in mind the students will also be paid an equal pay for every hour aof classroom study. so this would not only eliminate the costs of investment in a specific career , but also be paid by the community to continue studies in the needed career. and in the end all will be paid equal .. waht say you to this .. of course you will not want to give up your lavish earnings currently .. so your vooice will be biased .. but if you were approaching medical school today .. and were offered to be paid all the way through medical training providing you meet the required testing .. and prove your abilities .. or if you decide schooling has no interest to you ..and you would prefer a mechanics occupation .. or any other training on the list .. but if your interests are truly in medicine , would you not continue to pursue study in medicine even though it was in the end equal pay to that of .. a janitor?
Maybe if the time invested was equal. But an MD puts in upwards of 15 years in study. How is that paid back? I had this exact conversation with 2 young MDs and they expect, even demand, to be paid for all the time sent in training.
Well , for a highly educated person .. with a family full of education .. you ask how will 15 years of education be paid back..?
Have you read my previous explanation .. do you not understand the student will be paid an equal pay for all classroom time in study..
here is an exerpt : " and keep in mind the students will also be paid an equal pay for every hour aof classroom study."
So there is nothing to be paid back to the student .. in fact the student will be indebted to the community for paying them ..and investing in the student .. so that once the student completes his/ her traing she will contribute to the community through her efforts and performance on duty in her new career ..
The janitor will have spent 15 years of cleaning and also be paid the same amount as the 15 years the student spent in study. each following their own dreams, passions, abilities, and interests
Is there any part of the paying of the student while in school you still do not understand? and how this removes the students financial investment. and infact will recieve a wage for her efforts in training.
If money isn't important to you, why try to equalize incomes?
Med school isn't an 8 hour job. It's 24/7 studying, working, taking tests. You lose your young adulthood. You lose years 18-33. You arent out partying, going to clubs, residency us even more desultory. 24 hours on, 24 off, but not off, studying or your boards.a little Money can't replace lost time, a lot might.
Fair enough.. All study will be compensated for .. not a problem ..
You aren't understanding it. Kids go into Medicine so they can make way more money than a janitor. Paying them to study isn't going to do it. They want to earn, when all is said and done, 10-20 times more than a janitor.
You are being far too naive and simplistic.
I pity anyone whom pursues a career based on financial gain.
Interesting response. But I disagree.
Hell, you don't have to worry about lots of folks who live outside the state of NY, they will never cross the line because of all the stupid laws that the New York legislators have passed.
that's something only a redneck would say.
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I really have to say the concept of equal pay for different jobs sounds a lot like communism. China for instance is a communist country. Take example from them it doesn't work. Capitalism is based off of game theory someone has to lose for someone to win. Capitalism pushes people to be innovative to compete. This helps stimulate technological growth for most people there has to be some pay out some type of gratification. Be it monetary or just satisfaction. The quote from Thomas jefferson about the pursuit of happiness ties into capitalism, because in a communism,national socialist or any type of socialism the average person is not given that right. The ability to make as much money as you seem fit with ties into the pursuit of happiness. You are given the ability to manifest your own destiny any old person as the ability to control their own destiny. Most occupy movement "protesters" are just to dam lazy to work for it. You don't need handouts. The government was trying to keep our economy afloat by bailing out big business. Do you realize what could have happened if the banks didn't get bailed out? Peoples savings,retirement,checking accounts and the sort would have probably been void, because the banks probably would've went for bankruptcy.
Bailing out banks was socialism for the financial industry. It essential socialized their losses - meaning that everyone else paid for their losses while the banks kept their gains.
They broke the rules of the game to favor themselves.
you don't understand why they did it! The banks,if they declared bankruptcy just guess how much worse off we would be when people have their money tied up into banks? Any clear minded person can see why that would've been needed to prevent and economic crash. I would venture to say that you don't have working knowledge of how banks gain interest and how they operate? That was to favor us all!! Read up on history http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe30s/money_08.html