Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: You have no alternative

Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 17, 2011, 5:01 a.m. EST by Tommog123 (5)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

You mostly act as if you are moral crusaders and the rest of us are either oppressed minions of evil dictators or greedy self serving animals (Pigs seem to be a commonly used analogy).

I am all for speaking out against things that make you unhappy, but I have been to the protest camp sites and I have never seen such an uneducated group of people in my life. The majority have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. "Down with the system". Do you have ANY idea of the implications of a breakup of the banking system? We are talking medieval living standards within a year. Interest rates, mortgages, exchange rates, stock price fluctuations are essential to every aspect of your life regardless of whether you like it or not.

The alternatives are: some sort of Utopian society where people dont use money and rely on a system of barter or exchange of services. i.e i will wash your windows in exchange for a your bag of grain. This would never work, firstly people dont realise money does exactly this already, money isnt evil it is just a tool for valuing other peoples goods, Money, services, rice, wine, spices are all units of value that have been used throughout history and always will/have lead to gross "inequalities" where a top minority dominate the majority, it is human nature to amass resources, in fact it is more likely to happen if there is one "rogue" trader among a group of morally superior people as opposed to a system of competition where everyone is fighting for the most efficient route to wealth .

So this leaves us with the political alternative, where we keep the current structure but through taxes/ legal enforcement the rich are forced to give their money to the people that have less.

This again is impossible, firstly the state controlling what you earn and what you give away is tantamount to a dictatorship. This is the sort of actions they took under communism not to mention the dictatorships we are outraged at around the world. But on practical terms all it would take is one country in the world to not abide by these rules and the entire business community would move to that location, thus destroying your economy, try taxing 60% of people that earn no more than a maximum of $30,000 a year and see how far you get. Meanwhile the nation that keeps capitalism would make the current civilized world look like Iraq.

Thirdly, we bailout the public instead of companies, ok, so say we write a cheque for $100,000 of every citizen in the world instead of giving x billion to the banks. That will not work either, if everyone's level of wealth increases 50% say, at an equal rate the price of all goods and services will increase at that rate, so in effect you will have no more money because everything is 50% more expensive.

Also, keep in mind, speaking as a staunch capitalist I am against the bailout of the banks, these bailouts are a socialist measure. The banks should be punished financially. And my post (rant) is aimed at the people that are under the assumption this is capitalism. It isnt. We should be moving more right wing. The basics of Capitalsim is people that lose money/take gambles that dont pay off, go out of business.

I just dont get what these protesters want?

19 Comments

19 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 2 points by OurTimes2011 (377) from Arlington, VA 13 years ago

Your language seems condescending (Do you have ANY idea, moral crusaders and the rest of us are either oppressed minions, etc.) This is not helpful.

While you make some good points, most of your analysis is slightly off track, not tied to the truth. I suggest you take some time to really review this movement, if you can.

Start here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI

Protests in 951 cities for a movement that is 27 days old speaks to the fact that, while you may not know what these protesters want, millions around the world do.

You always have the option to join us.

[-] 2 points by laguy (110) 13 years ago

We will be happy to see the business community move to other places who has hijacked our democracy. Good riddance. We want to redesign our democracy which is not working for the 99%, but instead is a slave for 1% using their bought and paid for political class and judges, what do you not understand about it?

[-] 2 points by needgreenplanet (3) from Charlotte, NC 13 years ago

I agree the political nature and structure is how to start to change this thing, certainly not money. I agree that is stupid and implausible. The world runs on money. However, I think there should be structures in place for corportations to give back to the people & communities. Not just ina acharitable check and a tax write off, but if for example a factory pollutes the hell out of a drinking water source, they should be responsible for the clean up of that water. Theys hould also be there for the clinics/healthcare for all the people dying of say cancers from their products. Like the pesticide/fertilizer companies. They are killing the humans all around us, and have so far been not mentioned at all! Banks are just part of this problem, there is a LOT more. And they are all in conjuct with the government. The best sign i''ve read was," Corporations stay away from my governement" !!

[-] 1 points by an0n (764) 13 years ago

Idiotic.. The return to the "utopian" society we had under Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, and Carter, where capitalism did just fine and inequality was held in check, is "impossible" and tantamount to a communist dictatorship. "We should be moving more right wing" is what we've been doing since the 80s.

[-] 1 points by ICSPOTZ (57) from Fort Carson, CO 13 years ago

Horizontal leadership? Hmmmmm.... Where have I heard that before?......Hmmmmm....Oh yeah. The worldview according to the extreme left, ANARCHY. Read up on it folks, I used to be an anarchist until I got a job. Losers trying to bring down the system. rebuild tribal like communities governed by horizontal leadership. Look for the circled A's, telltale sign. look at their tattoos. Evict the dregs.

[-] 1 points by jtimon (1) 13 years ago

I think the current monetary system is profoundly flawed, but I agree that some form of money is necessary. I advocate for ripple and freicoin (doesn't exists yet, it's just bitcoin with Silvio Gesell's demurrage). There's many more alternative systems (most of them at a local level) like LETS, WAT, gold and silver... I think anything would be better than what we have today. Yes, even gold. I would like the people to read about alternative monetary systems and advocate for them in these protest.

[-] 1 points by ComplexMissy (291) 13 years ago

Please watch this video, I think it explains a lot of the core issues that we're all upset about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX1N3opw5eI

[-] 1 points by PublicCurrency (1387) 13 years ago

Read the articles at http://www.WebOfDebt.com

also

http://www.Monetary.org

http://www.TheMoneyMasters.com

Watch the Academy Award winning Documentary: "Too Big to Fail"

There are plenty of alternatives. Time to take the "MONEY POWER" back to the people.

[-] 1 points by PublicCurrency (1387) 13 years ago

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." Thomas Jefferson

[-] 1 points by needgreenplanet (3) from Charlotte, NC 13 years ago

I agree the political nature and structure is how to start to change this thing, certainly not money. I agree that is stupid and implausible. The world runs on money. However, I think there should be structures in place for corportations to give back to the people & communities. Not just ina acharitable check and a tax write off, but if for example a factory pollutes the hell out of a drinking water source, they should be responsible for the clean up of that water. Theys hould also be there for the clinics/healthcare for all the people dying of say cancers from their products. Like the pesticide/fertilizer companies. They are killing the humans all around us, and have so far been not mentioned at all! Banks are just part of this problem, there is a LOT more. And they are all in conjuct with the government. The best sign i''ve read was," Corporations stay away from my governement" !!

[-] 1 points by malikov (443) from Pasadena, CA 13 years ago

"the political alternative, where we keep the current structure but through taxes/ legal enforcement the rich are forced to give their money" back to the public.

[-] 1 points by Tommog123 (5) 13 years ago

And who out of the public pays the most in taxes? The rich. So if you want to use that argument you could say that essentially the bankers should get back their own money, as they are the ones who pay for the majority of schools/hospitals etc etc

[-] 1 points by malikov (443) from Pasadena, CA 13 years ago

The money doesn't disappear, it's a money cycle. Bankers or bums - they don't eat money. You can give bums free $30,000 a year - nothing will happen to the money cycle, except all greedy bastards will raise their prices.

Why not, give it back to bankers, just make sure they don't invest it abroad and don't lock it up in diamonds. Though bankers have plenty already.

[-] 1 points by Tommog123 (5) 13 years ago

" OWS is to big to fail" Big? Its a minority made up mostly of students/unemployed/ low wage earners that are pissed off that other people have a wealth and abundance in their lives. Ever occurred to you that the majority of people dont want to live in the world the OWS is proposing.

[-] 1 points by pornforblind (1) 13 years ago

Please watch the documentary "Inside Job". The protesters want the madness that is our legalized corruption to stop, all amply described there.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by 53PercentDude (29) 13 years ago

1. END THE FEDERAL RESERVE.

Article 1, Section 8 of the United States Constitution gives power to Congress to “coin money and regulate the value thereof.” John F. Kennedy was the last President that attempted to restore this power back to where it belonged. The Federal Reserve is a private bank that is owned by powerful international banking families. The “Federal Reserve” is as “Federal” as is “Federal Express.”

2. END THE FEDERAL INCOME TAX AND THE INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE.

Adopt a Federal value added tax (VAT) OR a flat tax that is fair to all.

A VAT would fairly tax all individuals and corporations based on consumption with unprepared food and medicines being exempted from taxation. Those who can afford to purchase a luxury yacht, a private jet, a mansion with an ocean view and lavish dining at an exquisite restaurant would pay a much higher amount in consumption taxes whereas those who can only afford a picture of a yacht, a round-trip airline ticket to go to visit grandma for Christmas, a studio apartment with a parking lot view and an occasional meal at McDonalds would pay much lower taxes for their consumption. It would take very few federal employees to administer this form of taxation.

A flat tax would tax all individuals and corporations at the same percentage of their income with no deductions and no exemptions, regardless of how the income is derived. A federal tax return, regardless of the amount of income should be no longer than one page and the corresponding regulations should be no longer than 25 to 30 pages.

Both forms of taxation would serve to eliminate lobbyists and corrupt politicians.

3. END ALL WARS AND ALL FOREIGN OCCUPATIONS THAT UTILIZE OUR MILITARY.

Our military should continue to be the best and most well equipped in the world but should be utilized to protect our borders from illegal invaders. Bring the troops home and see how quickly we can begin to reduce our federal debt.

4. IMPOSE SUBSTANTIAL TARRIFFS ON GOODS AND SERVICES THAT ARE PRODUCED BY U.S. CORPORATIONS IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES.

The United States is still the biggest market in the world. U.S. Corporations that have manufacturing operations in China, Mexico, India and other countries so as to exploit lower labor costs should be required to pay high tariffs to sell their products in the United States. I have no doubt that most of those manufacturing jobs would move back to the United States if those high tariffs were to be imposed!

[-] 0 points by Tommog123 (5) 13 years ago

Ok i have watched the Peter Joseph videos that have been recommended to me and I was not impressed. Firstly, I do agree with his views on perception , knowledge does evolve. However that isnt to say that all things are to be questioned equally. I wouldnt fancy rewriting the laws of physics before getting on a plane for example. And he does bring this point up which seems to undermine a lot of his argument, but i think i have misunderstood him there

Secondly he talks about this benchmark of reality and he questions this. On the surface this is a decent philosophical question. But I would argue that the benchmark of reality is human nature and this will not change. It never has and never will. Read "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins, humans operate in a way that protects the masses but out of the need for self preservation. Capitalism encapsulates this spirit.

Take a drug company, ok a few people will immediately get on their anti corporate soap box. But at the end of the day if you get diabetes you will be thanking god they exist. Their discoveries were formed on the back of humans making essentially selfish decisions to better their lives through earning money, or notoriety in the science community, or a million other self satisfying factors. In a world where the Mr Glaxo and Mr Smith-Klein earned the same as a road sweeper where is the incentive for them to take risk and develop drugs?

The videos also talk about legislation a lot as if this is a caveat. He makes out that "Capitalism works provided we have this legislation". this couldnt be further from the truth. It is this socialist legislation that has lead to banks being bailed out, unprofitable companies such as GM able to continue operating at the expense of potentially newer better companies.

If we lived in a purely capitalist system, the bankers that made bad decisions would be out of work. The government wouldnt be allowed to print money. Yes there would be bankruptcies but people will recover re build and continue from a firmer footing.