Forum Post: You guys sure know how to complain, but what do you actually want to change?
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 11, 2011, 3:29 a.m. EST by 1percenter
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Im not talking about saying "increase regulation" or "lower executive salaries" or mindless garbage like that. I am talking about actual reform, actual policies. What is it that you think is wrong and what is your solution?
They don't know!
I am not a particularly bright person when it comes to finance. I do not claim to understand the system. I do know that I saw a PBS Front Line show on derivatives 2 years prior to the real estate bubble collapse. And I watched another PBS program on the danger of sub-prime loans. Didn't understand it at the time, but I knew it was trouble ahead.
Simple me - Mr. Nobody - put it together long before the shit hit. Are you telling me that the brains on Wall Street and the Corps didn't understand what was going on? When you build a house of cards and it falls, blame it on the wind.
I am glad someone finally asked this question. Everyone is against the two-party system, against both democrats and republicans, but they all resist organizing into a party to create tangible change. Everyone says what needs to happen, but none have a plan for how to do it.
Are we really content to just create awareness? If so, I'm far more discouraged than I thought...
Oh, and it's been asked about a billion times, so I don't know where the "finally" is coming from. Asked and answered.
I'm not content just to create awareness, no. But we aren't quite done doing that so have a bit more patience. I have a hard time with patience too, but I'm trying.
Yes. Form a third party. http://wp.me/pDs0q-cW
Yes but lets say you make a party, what is your first reform?
No bribes. No matter what it is called.
See our list of demands here, http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
All sensible demands.
Forget parties and politicians. Re-election by the convenient supporting dollars is all their goal ever is. You got to all be specific ask for 40 percent income tax from those earning over $100k with limited accounting loopholes, cap on CEO salaries etc. Just my thought but that damn message needs to be tightened or your music looses its effectiveness
warren buffet says yes we should pay more republicans say send a check in thats why ows is on the streets inequality
Separation of business from government. Our representatives no longer represent people. They represent money instead. In true capitalism, businesses should be able to stand on their own two feet without having to influence public policy or elected officials. Let them survive on their merit. They should have no ability to influence lawmakers with their money in any way. End Bought Government.
Banks, for the 99% of us, should be nothing more than a safer place for us to put our paychecks than our mattresses. The mathematics of banking is very straightforward. Automate it with an oversight committee comprised equally (thids) of citizens, government officials, and industry experts. Do NOT allow bank executives to earn a living off the interest paid on loans. That money should be put to work creating jobs for people. Basically, we need to eliminate the banking executives. Turn banking into a public service.
So here's you, standing on the moat of Dracula's castle as the crowd of furious villagers approaches with torches, pitchforks and priests bearing holy water.
"Out of the way!" they say "We have work to do!"
"But wait!", you say, "You can't just barge in here! What do you think is wrong! What policy recommendations do you have! Shouldn't this go through proper channels?"
We've come to kill the vampire. If you're having a hard time figuring out which vampire---and not just being a disingenuous tool---scroll up to the top of this web page and put your glasses on.
This is what I want. This is a specific solution. Many share this perspective. If you read it, I think you'll agree: http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-we-win-one-perspective-on-where-we-go-from-her/
THere have been multiple threads on the subject of campaign finance reform. Here's the one I started looking for anyone arguing AGAINST it. Still looking... http://occupywallst.org/forum/do-counter-arguments-for-focusing-first-on-campaig/#comment-61046
Campaign finance reform will never work. It has been tried, and it ends up being a struggle over which faction gets the loopholes. You have to consider how voters are swayed by money. The way to subvert big money politics is to develop opinion-forming channels where money is not a factor.
Yes. Form a third party. http://wp.me/pDs0q-cW
end bush tax cuts , rebuild America bridges and roads , invest in middle class not banking class thats the occupy wall street message.
The Message (by Rory in Sacramento):
We, the 99% within Sacramento, find mismanagement and corruption in the world of governance within this nation. This is a departure from the ideals of this nation, wherein a private bank dictates our economic policy, other financial institutions manipulate that economy to their benefit and the detriment of the people, politicians are beholden to corporate interests, and corporate entities fight for the rights of an individual with almost none of the responsibilities. These problems, and innumerable others found within the ideas and opinions of the individual members of this movement, stem from one thing: the corruption of our government through the influence of money.
To that end, we seek to spread awareness to our brethren in the 99% so that we may come together, without partisanship or pretense, and entertain the notion that, in this republic, the votes of the population have more weight and more meaning than the opinions of private money. We come to seek reform and responsible regulation. We come to seek a return to true American ideals - that each individual is entitled to what they earn, but they are beholden to pay their fair share back into the nation that houses, protects, and serves them. We come to reaffirm the social contract each citizen of this nation has, that each asset of that citizen falls under, and that fairness be a mandate not only by the people for the people, but of the government that serves those people. We are the 99%. We are incorruptible.
Campaign Finance Reform for starters...
We need William K Black
First, this is not a political movement. It has nothing to do with being a Liberal or Conservative, Democrat or Republican, Muslim or Jew or Christian or Atheist. It has nothing to do with the Left or the Right. This is a Financial Revolution. This is a revolt of the 99% that are throwing off the yoke of financial oppression to free our Government from the corrupt control of the 1%. We are no longer willing to sit idly by and just voting in hopes that the elected officials will ignore the puppet strings and do what is right. We are taking our future into our own hands and standing up to fight for what we believe in, a Government for the People by the People.
We live in a Feudalistic Capitalist society governed not by the elected officials but by the person who donates the most money to their cause. The top 1% controls the money and thus controls the laws, fixing them to better themselves rather than better the 99%. So we, the serfs, are rising up against our oppressors. We will fight for ourselves. We will not ignore the 1% mocking us while they sip champagne and wonder "Why do they starve when they can eat cake." Like the American and French Revolutions we will rise against the Monarchy and attain our freedom.
In a modern American society it is virtually impossible to violently fight a rebellion against the 1%. The military industrial complex has insured that the general populace can not compete in an arms race. The 2nd amendment was intended to keep the Government honest with the ability of the populace to rise up if it ever overstepped it's bounds. The forefathers did not envision a future of smart bombs, drone airplanes, and tomahawk missiles. So what weapons can we fight with to effect this Financial Revolution? What peaceful, civil, and responsible solutions is there? We have, our money.
We will cripple the banks by refusing to acknowledge their credit system. We will en mass refuse to pay our mortgages, car loans, student loans, credit cards, unpaid medical bills, insurance, etc. We will couple this with pulling our money out of their Banks. Unified, we will force the banks to relinquish their control on the Government so that the Government can do what they need to do to correct the system. Meanwhile, we will still go to work, buy groceries, pay our utilities, and live normal lives.
The 1% have to be accountable for their actions. They have to relinquish control. They can not live in their ivory towers and ignore us anymore. The 99% are here to fight for our country. We are American and we believe that the American Dream is still alive. We just have to work hard to wrest it from the iron grip of our oppressors.
28th Amendment: The Separation of Market and State. Remove the ability of the Market to sway political legislation.
Well that'll put an end to socialism once and for all.
We will cripple the banks by refusing to acknowledge their credit system. "We will en mass refuse to pay our mortgages, car loans, student loans, credit cards, unpaid medical bills, insurance, etc. We will couple this with pulling our money out of their Banks. Unified, we will force the banks to relinquish their control on the Government so that the Government can do what they need to do to correct the system. Meanwhile, we will still go to work, buy groceries, pay our utilities, and live normal lives."
If you destroyed the financial system you wont have a job, money to buy groceries, a shop to buy them from, a company to provide you with electricity and I suspect you already don't have a life.
It's like a colossal game of chicken. We put undue pressure on the system until the Banks cave in to our demands to get their hands out of Government. The bottom 50% of the Population is nearly in a Depression already. So the Banks can either free the Government from their iron grasp, or hang on to it all the way to the bottom.
GeoffH, quite nice. What you said WILL cause another depression, but I suppose that's the catalyst for change. We will not embrace civil responsibility until it becomes PAINFULLY obvious to each and every person how deep the infection is.
Truth.
I mean, it's entirely unrealistic but well meaning with a heavy dose of punishment for everybody.
Revolution is never nice and pretty and wrapped in satin and lace.
You're asking what we want? I once was asking the same question from afar so I truly understand your frustration. Let me give you an honest answer to your sincere question. I'm no expert and I don't speak for the whole, but I'll at least attempt to give you a real response. Others can feel free to join in and correct me.
First of all, we want to change your mind about what's possible. We want you to discover what you have in common with 99% of your fellow citizens including me. Next we want you to help others do the same. Then, we'll all be able to imagine a real and authentic community and a stronger more prosperous nation. More importantly, by rediscovering what we have in common and the power of human community, we'll have the means to do much more than just imagine a better nation. We'll also have the means to achieve it. Because we'll no longer be demanding individually from a position of weakness. Instead we'll be deciding democratically from a position of collective strength.
Deciding instead of demanding. Discovering what's possible and having the power achieve it. Thriving as an individual in a dynamic community rather than paddling furiously as an isolated powerless individual in a divided and decaying country.
Once we get there, then we can start talking specifics about what we all want. Until then, until you're here with us, it would be presumptuous to discuss specifics. We can and should do that once everyone (including you) realizes they have a seat at the table. We need you to realize that you have the right and the power to help answer the very question you're posing.
Once we all wake up and realize our common ground and our collective power, once we realize that we hold the power, not the 1% who've been hoarding and exploiting all the resources, then we'll be in a position to shape the future. We won't be begging or demanding. We'll be deciding. Together.
Where you may currently see divisions, you may discover connections and common ground. That's what we want. And once we get there, everything will be possible. To paraphrase James Baldwin, none of us knows the precise shape of our future, but we're waking up to the fact that the future is ours.
you wont make it into government without a policy.
I've worked in government. And I'm sure we'll get around to the specifics I think you are hungry for. But first we need to get together and discover our collective power. In the meantime, it's certainly great to debate and discuss lists of specific goals and the merits of certain changes, policies or pieces of legislation . I think that's very healthy and helpful because a) it will help us to get to know each other and realize common ground and b) we'll need those specific lists once we the 99% are all on the same team. I won't give you my specific dream list because right now I'm more interested in hearing yours, so I can listen and learn from you, and discover what common ground we may have.
William K Black prosecutor during the saving and loan scandal and author of the best way to rob a bank is to own one. He says FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD was committed in the banking industry and the american people were robbed.
thanks for the useful input
As far as actual policies to make the country stronger, take this: http://occupywallst.org/forum/idea-for-a-possible-general-set-of-goals/#comment-60803
and this:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/do-counter-arguments-for-focusing-first-on-campaig/
as a start. This is probably enough to keep the movement occupied for a good long while, and then we'll see what the country needs once these things are accomplished.
where do politicians get money to campaign?
Right now, the vast majority of it comes from large corporations, either through direct donations to candidates, or donations to 501(c)(4)s like Karl Rove's Crossroads GPS, or donations to the conventions that then sponsor candidates. A fair amount of it also comes from personal funds if you get a wealthy individual running (a la Bloomberg).
yes, so where do they get money to campaign when these corps cannot donate?
Like I proposed in the first thread; a base fund provided by the government alongside donations by individuals only, max $500 per individual including the candidate and immediate family, friends, etc. Given the existence of new media (FB, Twitter, hell, even this counts) it is entirely possible to reach very large audiences with very little money. Even this year, Obama's going to fund the DNC using only individual donations.
but he still appointed Bernanke as fed chairman
I thought your point was that campaigning is unfeasible without boatloads of money; I brought up Obama and the 2012 DNC to refute that point. As far as his choice of Fed chairman goes, it was rather lamentable and I did expect better, but where did you honestly expect him to pick from? I would have loved to see him go entirely outside the existing pool of high-ranking bankers and grab a Keynesian economics professor or someone of that nature, but I highly doubt such a choice would have survived the confirmation process.
David Walker, former US Comptroller General and chief of the GAO, warned before the 2004 election that if large economic changes were not made, by 2009 the United States and its taxpayers would not be able to afford the interest payments on the national debt. A study authorized by the US Treasury in 2001 found that in order to keep servicing the debt at its current rate of growth, by 2013 income taxes would need to be raised to 65%.
If the United States cannot afford to pay the interest on its debts, that would be the final stage of economic collapse and hence result in a total textbook bankruptcy. The systematic crisis would in turn spread to the rest of the world.
How did this happen? Why is the US national debt $14,819,350,000+? Of the 203 countries in the world today, only four (!) do not owe others money. The collective external debt of all the governments in the world is now above 40 trillion dollars and this number doesn’t include the massive about of household debt in each country.
The whole world is basically bankrupt. But how? How can the world as a whole owe money to itself? Obviously, it’s all nonsense. There is no such thing as ‘money’. There are only planetary resources, human labor and human ingenuity. The monetary system regulated by Federal Reserve is nothing more than a game… and an outdated and dysfunctional one at that. Those in positions of social power alter the rules of the game, at will. The nature of those rules is guided by the same competitive, distorted mentalities that are used in everyday “monetary” life, only this time the game is rigged at its root to favor those who run the show. For example, if you have 1 million dollars and put it into a CD at 5% interest, you are going to generate $50,000 a year simply for that deposit. You are making money off of money itself… paper being made from other paper … nothing more - no invention - no contribution to society – no nothing.
That being denoted, if you are a lower to middle class person, who is limited in funds, and must get interest based loans to buy your home or use credit cards, then you are paying interest to the bank, which the bank is then using, in theory, to pay the person’s return with the 5% CD! Not only is this equation outrageously offensive due to the use of usury (interest) to ‘steal from the poor and give to the rich’, but it also perpetuates class stratification by its very design, keeping the lower classes poor, under the constant burden of debt, while keeping the upper classes rich, with the means to turn excess money into more money, with no labor.
That reality aside, there are other games in the system which have worked for decades, but are just now starting to bloom into the inevitable mathematic disasters that should have been anticipated 100 years ago. The point is, our system is broken. Simple policy change will not solve our debt problem. We need to alter the governmental paradigm if we wish to repay our debt. First step: our government must fire the Federal Reserve Board.
the federal reserve board is currently paying your debt for you...... so when you fire them you will default and no one will loan you money.....
The root of all evil is the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve is a private bank; our government does not have the constitutional authority to hire a private bank to manipulate global currencies.
The Federal Reserve Board created the debt. They aren't paying for it, they're deepening it. Do you understand where the global economy is headed? Impending doom will come whether we like it or not. I'd suggest we take proactive steps...you 1%ers wouldn't know anything about that.
the world is heading for doom, we are in a debt trap. but the federal reserve is monetising US debt because the elected government have been so irresponsible when making fiscal policy decisions
Bingo.