Forum Post: You can't support estate tax AND Ows
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 26, 2011, 7:29 a.m. EST by jgriff
(6)
from Tampa, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
You cant claim the gov and corps are outta control, and then say that your parents have to then give them some of their money, on top of it all, after they die.
It just doesnt make sense. They are printing it like its toilet paper, they are attacking half the planet, they are manipulating the stock market. The last thing they need is MORE money.
True!
The idea is to take back control from the government and the corporations.
When we get the democracy working,. removing the politicians from the process,. an therefore the money,. the taxing of the rich will be used to rebuild the country.
Don't take a familes money. Reform the fuckin tax code and most of these problems go away. Get the money outta politics and most of these problems go away. Taking someone's cash because they passed away is disgusting, im sorry, it is, and would expect people here to be a little more compasionate than that.
How do you remedy the following then? I make $2mm during my lifetime and pay 30% in taxes. Your uncle Benny makes $200mm during his life and pays 15% in taxes. Discuss?
A reform of the tax code. Make it simple and remove the deductions.
Our government tries to play the game of "parent" on the tax payer by creating loopholes and deductions. They try to socially engineer through taxation - which usually has disastrous and unexpected consequences.
So, this $200M "Uncle Benny" will usually be making his money work for himself in capital markets that have a different tax rate. Why? Well, it helps stimulate investments as there is a built in tax relief. But there is also the ingenious and malevolent end of causing those in the investment class to retain more earned money. It creates a pool. Was this intended or just an accidental byproduct?
To me - a death tax is nefarious. The issue is that most people look at it in extreme cases, but don't understand the broad consequences. Nor do the people that advocate it look at the unintended behavior changes.
Since we now acknowledge that taxation has a behavioral impact, one is forced to look at the impacts to behavior of taxing inheritance? For the wealthy it will increase consumption and encourage off-shoring of funds. This is due to the fact that the wealthy know that an extremely large portion of these assets will be taxed at an outrageous tax rate. Paying these tax rates can also bankrupt and cause massive job loss in family owned corporations. So all this tax does for the wealthy is push them to do proper tax planning as the tax can all but be avoided through various hiding schemes, legal channels and capital flight.
But the byproduct of the above has consequences for America. As the wealthy consume less - they will be less apt to put money into the economy for research, factories, new innovations and general capital creation. This means that future "working class" generations will have less to work with and become less productive.
So who does this tax ultimately hurt? The low to middle income families. Both through the lack of new production facilities and through inheritence of land/assets. Farming families must pay tax on the land that is worth far more than their ability to earn. Middle class families forced to sell family heirlooms and properties because they can't afford the tax. Recent regulation has stifled a portion of this, but it is still happening.
The absolute worst, to me, is that this tax doesn't really impact those extremely wealthy as they will find the loopholes. But it will, in fact, hit the new money and stop new estates from being created. Furthering the income divide.
Someone yesterday suggested a net worth tax of 1% and 2% depending on total worth. This is used in many countries - but the unintended consequences are that valuation of assets creates an expensive/arbitrary system and it pushes for capital flight. It's an interesting concept, but the result can be disastrous.
Out of the two concepts - I much prefer the net worth tax.
Reform the tax code. Start electing some people that have actual fuckin balls and ambition, and reform it. Get it right.
Im not about taking money from people due to their dying. Im not. Im not for this monster of government forcing their way into the lives o the people anymore than they already do.
Reform the tax code, fix the trade laws, fix the offshoring of profits, and we wont have to take money from the dead.
griff, I agree with you on most all of the above. I'm confident that one day you will see that the estate tax is not a "death tax". Thank you for you engagement in the process of government and get some individuals with balls elected to office.
jgriff: Perhaps you are not informed regarding the current estate tax law. Each person can move estate tax free $5,000,000. A married couple can move $10,000,000 estate tax free. So, a married couple with an estate worth $25,000,000 would be taxed at 35% on $15,000,000. The tax bill due would be $5,250,000. This amounts to a 21% effective estate tax rate. They are hardly moving "Half" of their wealth over to Uncle Sam. Furthermore, someone worth this much money has already moved a lot of wealth outside of their taxable estate via annual gifts and GRAT structures which further reduces the effective tax rate. Sorry to burst your bubble, put please research before posting.
Whatever. Do you want to be the one to ask someone who's parents just died to fork over half the money? Its corruption at its finest.
Whatever? Really? How does 21% = 50%, also known as half? Remember, this is on a $25mm estate...roughly 0.03% of the population. If your an ill-informed middle school student with no real life experience please take care with what you post on this site. Uninformed and uneducated attacks on something you know nothing about can only be used to hurt the movement which this website is supporting. The couple in the example above paid an effective tax rate during their lifetime lower than most people in this country due to the types of holdings they held and advice they had access to. Yet, they benefited more than your or I from the services of the local and federal gov. The roads, the hospitals, the freedom which our military and law enforcement provide which insures a positive and safe environment to conduct business. The great public schools which educate their workforce and customers.
I have NO desire to tell DEAD people to hand me over more money. Im sorry to hear you do.
You talk to the dead? Why are they handing YOU-MORE money? Exactly how much have you already taken from them? And, isn't this money going to the Treasury? I see that you are not a fan of anyone paying their fair share of the tax burden. What tax structure would you support, I would very much like to hear your ideas for a solution instead of carrying the 1% 's battle cry for lower taxes for the wealthy?
I would like all the tax holes closed, and then our tax structure would be fine. I dont like it that these banks and corps pay less taxes I do. Raising or lowering them doesnt matter until the code is reformed and simplified.
Our gov is an outta control spending machine, bailouts, wars, etc. The gov is a representation of the people. Im all for everyone paying their fair share, Im just not about taking people's money from them when they die, instead of letting their kids have.
It doenst matter if they "need" it or not, its about principle. You dont interfere in people's lives like that, certainly not in a time of loss.
How this is lost on so many is a miracle of the media's divisiveness.
Regarding the Estate Tax, some FACTS for you to consider: Removing the tax would add trillions to the federal government. The average effective estate-tax rate paid is less than 20%. Most large estates are comprised of almost exclusively "unrealized" capital gains, which receive a step-up in basis at death. The estate tax is the ONLY way to tax these assets. The estate tax impact in the US is far below the international average.
Closing the loop-holes in the personal and corporate tax code would be a very nice start. You are 100% correct that the government spending is excessive. However, the necessary spending done by the government cannot be shutoff. Nearly all federal spending goes to Social Services (for the 99%), the Military (an empire needs the strongest military in the world) and debt servicing. These are not items that be just cut without painful impacts to the general population.
And I still think its digusting that they take money from people's parents because they died. Tell those hogs in DC to get their own fucking problems under control, before they fleece the dead. Let families be, someone just fuckin died for crying out loud. This tax is the epitomy of the a disgusting governemnt that will stop at nothing to fund wars and keep their little scheme going.
Estates have 9 months to settle the bill due. The men in black are not at the funeral home asking for a sack of money. Nearly no one pays this tax.
You arent going to convince me that taking money from someone's family simply because someone died is an ethical way to run the country.
I can see your rather conflicted, perhaps you are in line to receive a windfall one day. What if I told you this tax helps to maintain our democracy? Without it would one day have a plutocracy. The French revolution manifested because the wealthiest in the country held everything and ran everything. Not the government elected by the people. By allowing the wealthiest 0.05% of the country and create piles of cash that make them as individuals some of the richest “States” in the world is a very-very poor recipe for democracy.
That makes two of us.
Im dirt poor dude, and have 0 coming to me.
Wow, that's a red herring, how many million does someone need to be passing on before they get dinged an estate tax? One can make sure the bracket is high enough that they don't get more eaten than is fair and take care of their kid, but to say someone with tens of millions should be exempt, uh yaaa, good plan to let those bankers keep it in the family.
This is a flawed perception by many in the movement. Ive known plenty of millionaires, and they are not the problem. The real problem is really the top .1%. Through trade laws, tax laws and crony capitalism, they are fleecing us.
The millionaires that Ive known all work their asses off, for their ENTIRE lives. Energy that you cannot believe. I couldnt imagine having someone's dad or mom pass, and then telling them they have to hand over half of it to me. That is just awful.
You are ignoring what I said in the second half of the statement, too.
Where are you getting your information about the tax rates and who it affects? The estate tax only kicks in at the $10,000,000 level for a married couple. Only about .6% of estates are subject to the tax.
Yes, some millionaires work their butts off. I have also know millionaires who are extraordinarily lazy and just live off of inherited wealth.
Check this out about the campaign of deception by the super rich to get the public on their side:
http://www.ctj.org/pdf/estatetax2010.pdf
You are still asking money from dead people, which in my view, is the epitomy of the corruption we are fighting agains. The people that print the fuckin shit are asking for more. Thats disgusting.
Also, Congress does not print the money the Federal Reserve does. As of right now they have very limited oversight by the Congress. Read "Jekyll Island". Money is needed by the government to support our empire, if you question that the US has become an empire then you again need to do some research. The problem is with spending and our historically low tax environment. We've never waged war without inacting a tax to fund a war before Iraq/Afghanistan. If the cost (Tax) was to high the public/voters would not allow it and we wouldn't be in this mess. Much needs to be done, its our duty to elect competent leaders to get the job done.
Ive read the creature from jekyll island, and saying its the federal reserve and not congress is like arguing whether its quarter to nine or 8:45. Same freakin thing. Im not asking anyone whose DEAD to contribute money to me and not their own kids. Sorry, handouts arent how I roll.
Not the same thing at all. I very much doubt you read the book then. Really, their kids? The kids of the 0.05% are going to be just fine. Having 20% of the wealth they did not build taxed is hardly stealing from them and putting them on food stamps. The government, as inefficient as it is still needs tax revenue to pay for social services, military, infrastructure etc. Less taxes = more debt from China.
Close the tax holes, get the money outta poltics. If you do that, you wont have to worry about taking money from families because someone fuckin died.
The Money out of politics? Read up on our founding fathers, this has always been the case. Check out how the Capitol was built and the "special interest" money that was used. In fact it was mandatory.
Would it make a difference to you if, instead of taxing the estate, the recipient of inherited money were taxed and the first million dollars were exempt?
Its a transfer tax, so its a tax paid by the beneficiaries of the estate. Look-up the history of the estate tax, I think it would be very helpful for you to understand why it was enacted. I think you'll find that its goal and impact is inline with your views.