Forum Post: Working together with the Zeitgeist Movement
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 8, 2011, 6:01 a.m. EST by ockupera
(5)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Just some questions:
Are OccupyWallStreet working together with the Zeitgeist Movement? For me it seems Occupy.. and Zeitgeist.. are fighting for the same things, like making the situation better for everyone! They, The Zeitgeist Movement (ZM) have been around for a while, so maybe it could be a good thing that those two movements working together? I know that Peter Joseph from the ZM have interviewed some people from OccupyWS (you can listen to it from the Zeitgeist radioblog).
This is how I look at the world today:
The world in a nutshell; Loans, debt, greed, shock rise in interest rates, war, corruption, quality bad (!) Products that allow them to break (fast!), starving children, food stamps, environmental disgusting behavior all over, the sicker we humans becomes the higher the GDP (!), toxic emissions, mass murder, no cooperation, inequality, massive unemployment which will also rise sharply, and slavery! ... and worst of all: it will be even worse!
Does ANYONE know where there is a download available for TZM/OWS brochures???
Everything you need is right here. There are lectures, movies, and downloads. Welcome! http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/
As a Zeitgeister, I'd have to say what you're doing is the first step in the transition. TZM isn't a cult, though folks who have not read the orientation guide are lead to believe so by the lamestream media. It's merely the most practical way to manage the earth's resources. If you haven't read the orientation guide, please don't make assumptions. If you have, and still don't agree, then offer a better solution. No need to get all nasty and confrontational about it.
We members of TZM know that the transition to a completely moneyless resource based economy isn't something that can happen overnight - especially given the current mindset. It surprises me how vicious people get about it. Why do they feel so threatened that they have to attack these ideas with such anger? It's just a concept. But it's a concern TZM shares with OWS -to a certain degree.
Basically the concept is this: Take away money, you take away the motivation for corruption. If there's no reward for greed, then greed can't control our actions.
The same concept we apply to TZM also applies to Occupy Wall St.
"Take money out of the government, you take away the motivation for corruption."
The closest thing to accomplishing this that I've come across so far is an article I read yesterday where Ron Paul is trying to get the Liberty Amendment passed. http://www.libertyamendment.com/ This says it would keep the government from engaging in any kind of business. Personally, I think it would be a great first-step towards cleaning up the corruption in the system. In light of the recent attacks that say we have no plan, perhaps we should consider working to get this amendment passed? Does anyone else have more information about whether or not that would help?
Anyway - as far as TZM and OWS are concerned, we need to focus on common ground here. We need to ignore the folks that want to call TZM a cult just like we need to ignore the lamestream media and Faux News when they call OWS an unorganized bunch of dirty, homeless hippies. Because you both sound the same. judging without doing the research and getting in there and understanding each other.
Differences divide. Common ground is what we need to focus on. As PROUD a TZM and OWS member, I say lets work together and clean this s**t up.
I couldn't have said it better myself.. united we stand, divided we fall.. its not just a bullshit saying. It will take everyone working together to bring about change.
How to join the TZM .I'm in China
Well this tread on TZM's forum is just on that, turns out there is a kind of make-shift Chinese chapter: http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=231&id=350033&Itemid=100114&lang=en
Go here: http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/ and look for links in your language - but China has no chapter yet - maybe it is more dangerous to start one there... You can still study the orientation guide and/or start a chapter of your own, or just join any chapter. I have and plan to join more than one chapter just to keep up with what people are doing locally and to contribute when and where I can. I may even take ideas I find interesting from one chapter and post it on another (crediting the OP of course) so great ideas can be shared by everyone.
This is a global movement, not a local one, and we're all part of the same planet. Welcome :-)
why do they have to get all nasty and confrontational about it?? Because it threatens their way of life. It threatens the American ideal of freedom of choice, that is why. People think, they still think that they live in a free nation and that they live in a standard above kings. The US especially is still operating under ideologies from Roman society, we live in an archaic and ritualistic social model, built on ideologies formed thousands of years ago. That is why. and when people's homes and jobs are being taken out from under them, the Wall Street protests could concievably serve as confirmation that the system is archaic and freedom of choice means nothing more than coke or pepsi. please check out TZM with an open mind.
LOL, I agree, and ever since I was a kid (I'm 53 now) I thought America was just an extension of Rome.
Democracy over all
I was thinking the same thing. I have a feeling that Zeitgeisters already realize we're pretty much the same, but it wouldn't hurt to officially make contact.
We are not the same, see above. They are not democratic, they are not open source, and they have a leader.
TZM is just like OWS a grassroots movement which encourages bottom-up decision making. We have no global leader, the closest thing to a leader in our movement is chapter-coordinator of which we have about 1100. Although Peter Joseph is the founder and most well-known person in TZM he is not a leader, no one has to listen to him.
We TZM folk are actually more democratic than the US :-) We don't vote for people to make whatever decisions they want affter we 'give them the power'. We vote for individual projects then we get off our butts and implement them, rather than waiting for someone else to do it all.
But yeah, you're right in that we're not 'exactly' alike. But OWS is the closest thing TZM will get to like-minded people right now, and the movement OWS is creating is a good stepping stone towards the movement TZM wants to see. Especially in the fact that OWS wants the less fortunate people in this world to be at least fed, clothed, housed and given the same opportunities to contribute to the world.
"We TZM folk are actually more democratic than the US :-) We don't vote for people to make whatever decisions they want affter we 'give them the power'. We vote for individual projects then we get off our butts and implement them, rather than waiting for someone else to do it all"
Which is what the vision of this country, as set forth, was supposed to be. It has been seriously perverted, with great fault lieing in the people not regulating their elected public servants
I watched the ZM movie, While I agree with a lot of the points raised, the end result presented seems more like a fantasy, and less reality. Not trying to degrade the ZM, the ideals and goals are admirable.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/smarter-than-them/
I understand completely why you feel the end result sounds like fantasy. It requires an understanding by the masses. the current system creating 'perceived scarcity' has the general population so bent that it would be extremely difficult for us to just move right into a society like that, just as it is still difficult for many white people still to adjust to the emancipation of slaves. But someday, it'll happen - maybe not in our lifetime, but eventually people come around to what is more practical. Hopefully not after we've trashed all our resources.
what do mean by 'not democratic'?
Are you referring to TZM itself or how the Resource Based Economy functions?
Zeitgeist, is not clear on how to acomplish the survival of 7000 millons of humans. Like it or not, we reach this stage of surplus of food (bad distributed) and surplus of energy. Zeigest, doesnts says how to goods exchanges will be done ?? Wy should for sample Argentina send soya beens to Japan ?? what will Japan or many countrys that are not food producers eat from??
I do like some ideas of Zeitgest, they trend to people equality and energy and food efeciency and distribution.
Zeitgest might work straigt forward on a world of 1000 millon.
But we must be realistic and give more realistic short and medium range solutions.
Even if the Zeitgeist Movement speakers (like Peter Joseph) are smart enough to want you to be your own leader (he actually said this often enough to believe him) there are so many people, who can't think for themselves, and have no relation to history (and it's failures), wanting this idea to be the only solution brought to us from a heavenly brain so desperatly, that they will be even able to create a leader for themselves. maybe it's peter joseph, who can't run from beeing a leader, because he's the guy gotten the ball rolling. so many people could twist his words and the worst thing is, they could corrumpy the zeitgeist movements, before even half of their desperate members got their self-awareness high enough to be protected against corrumpation. i referr to this link, just to get my opinion "proved", it actually has already started! and you can even see the not so smart reaction of the "nonleader" peter joseph: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnvFfuPjCXY&feature=youtu.be <-- BOOM dropped the bomb!
How many people can the world's resources support? What do you plan to do with the rest of them? How will you keep the population down?
What happens when the system--like every system in the history of man--become corrupted? How will the 99% rebel when the 'central planners' (for lack of a better word) have control over all the food, water and energy?
What if your idea of utopia is not someone else's idea of utopia? Ultimately, will you use violence to force them to submit? You can't allow people to continue making their own decisions if you plan to control and equitably distribute all the world's resources.
I appreciate the sentiment of wanting to take care of everyone, but if those who support TZM would please read more history I think you would see the reality of what you are proposing.
i agree...strongly!
by the way, to critisize this constructively, like you did, you really don't need a "better solution" (even if you had one). critisizing a "utopia-thesis", which isn't proved doesn't need a disprove. And if you look closely (not even that close), you will see the relation to histories failures, even those, which we had liked as they were just spoken ideas.
The worlds resources can provide for everyone currently on this planet, and probably some billions more (although not in the current system, because we have a linear system http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLBE5QAYXp8). By the way the RBE proposed by TZM and TVP incorporates all of the necessities stated at the end of the vid. The rest is obviously stored for later use. How to keep the population down? Thats an easy one: education, yes educated people get less kids. The EU will have a declining population from 2012-2014 on, and rates in Asia and the US are dropping too (although not as much).
How to prevent corruption: Well we make sure people cannot get in positions of power, positions where they can influence others. All factories will have opened doors, and the source code of all programs will always be freely available for everyone. Of course there is also a necessity for laws, because without laws you become subjective (allowing certain behavior from some but not from others).
Of course everyone is free to choose if they wish not to participate, just like the Amesh and many other groups do today. Using violence is a bit tricky since the government is gonna get a whole lot smaller, preferably taking out the military entirely. We indeed need people to stop hording like they do today, but this needs to be done through reason. And of course no ads on tv or anywhere else will decrease the amount of consumed goods dramatically. People are free to make their own decisions. But on the bigger scale everything has to be done in the most sustainable way possible (I'm talking about stuff like building an energy source for a city, no matter how many votes are for a fossil fuel power plant, if the numbers say renew-ables are better, then we build renewable energy sources).
Also you should watch some documentaries about Easter island (the one with the heads yea). history proves that our current system will turn our lives into a living hell in the not-too-distant future.
So if people are free not to participate, then why don't you just start it? Or join Jacque in Florida. If it's voluntary, there is no need to discuss replacing our current system with RBE. Just gather some like minded people and go do it. Of course, the idea that it's voluntary doesn't gel with the idea of GLOBAL resource management.
Your ideas on preventing corruption strike me as terribly naive. Take the source code, for example. Your going to need some security around the code so you don't have people just logging on and making changes (and not everyone is going to be a programmer). So you now have restricted access to the ability to change the code--a group of people who can be corrupted. They can collude together, or one can find a way to re-direct resources for his own benefit. It's really not hard to find parallels to this scenario in every society at every level in all of history. I see no reason to expect this would suddenly change.
Freedom is severely curtailed in your system. You are going to decide what information people can be exposed to (control/eliminate TV), for starters. I take responsibility for my own decisions, and I really don't want a nanny state treating me like a child who needs to be protected from the influences of advertisers. I can do that on my own (haven't had a TV for years). Others should also be free to make their own choices.
How are you going to allow free choice while also ensuring sustainability?
Peter Joseph: Message to Occupy Wall Street & The World | The Zeitgeist Movement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SQqjTxI3vc
I wouldnt say working together. OWS isnt working with anyone because basically we are everyone. We even have some 1%er support as well as some that are nearly 1%ers. So we have representatives of all groups including the Zeitgeists who want to change business as usual into something that is actually useful for the 99%.
I have never heard of the Zeitgeist Movement before today. I do find it interesting what daleziemianski posted "Basically the concept is this: Take away money, you take away the motivation for corruption. If there's no reward for greed, then greed can't control our actions." If that is what defines what this movement is then the movement has erred because it has not taken into account the greed for power!
You are exactly correct. It's not money, it's power that some find so alluring. Were it just money, they would stop accumulating it when they had the first billion or so.
The Awakening: a simple explanation for all the major problems we face
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAjFBsp__aE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCJqP18gBlc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdhklzlF3Dw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1a5MlHFJu4&feature=related
Call the Joes you knows and everybody has a nose that knows the Joes.
I'm Little Joe bear and we are all bears and we are all bare beneath our fur and underwear.
There is Poppa Joe, there is Don-Don-Joe, there is Mary Joe, there is Billy Joe, we're all Joes. We are the mountian Joes as long as your nose. We are some of the last of the Lennappe people. We are Siwanoy related. Not too many of us left. And we are bear but we used to call us "eeyo". That's a really old word for bear.
We have returned because of an old promise. Your ancestors made a promise to Spider Woman and you helped us at one time.
We are here to return the favor. Now we will give you bear-strength.
Eeeyo heyuhague eeyo, eeyo heyuhagune eeyo;
Yiga ya ite, yahweh hey yo owi, yanu hadica, ya we hey yowi yah hey yeah hey yegguweh ya hey!
guys!
I own a domain name, Jaques Fresco's own words, "thisshithasgottogo.com"
i got guys that print t-shirts and stickers ready to go but it's not something i have the time and attention to make real.
One of you wanna step up to the plate? I'm Little Joe. 602-903-2050 and you are welcome any time of any day or night for any reason or for no reason
hiya! i own the domain name "thisshithasgottogo.com" wanna collaborate? 602-903-2050
I am part of TZM and we all want to phase out money all together. Nobody talks about Land Value Tax as a possible transition to a resource based economy. The theory of economic rent has been around for some time, but land taxation has seldom been implemented throughout history. It is well known that the factors of production are composed of land, labor and capital. Land, in the economic sense, can be explained as anything with a productive capacity that has not been created by men or women, but has value created by the community. Labor is any human energy spent , whether by the mind or through brute force, that contributes to a means of production. Capital is mainly what is spent from savings for future production. Under the current system, mainly labor and capital are taxed, while the landed elite make out like bandits with the rents that are created by the community! It is no surprise that civilizations have suffered from vast inequalities since the founding of the first governments. What we need to fight for is a redistribution of these economic rents for the sake of the people, while at the same time reducing the tax rates on labor and capital. These rents from land are the source of all wealth and are presently held by a small number of wealthy people who will speculate and slow there productive capacity in order to increase profits. This demand goes out to the people of OWS! If there is one thing we need to change in order to promote equality, environmental protection and job creation through increased productive capacity, this is the solution we need. Please read about economic rent and land taxation in order to fully grasp the concept. This is something proven in theory and not based on anyone's personal opinion or ideology. While we are divided on many things, it's time to come together with some real demands to benefit the majority of unrepresented individuals of the world. Lets show the top 1% that we know where their unearned wealth is coming from and that we know exactly what is needed in order to bring them back to the real world!
OKAY. MY GOAL for tomorrow is to INFORM the Occupiers about ZIETGEIST, because it's OBVIOUS it NEEDS DOING!!!! Wow. It amazes me how people with so much intensity mock not only our movement with Occupy, but on the next level form a ridiculous uneducated opinion on Zietgeist and the RBE. PEOPLE !! WE ALL NEED TO COMPLETELY WAKE UP ALREADY!!! This is the "ONLY" way forward! The only way to FIX the BROKE! The only WAY PERIOD!
The Zeitgeist Movement is a cult like Scientology accept TZM is entirely internet based. TZM is against charity mainly because they deem it as only a "band aid" fix. TZM promotes communism ideals through a utopia facade called a RBE.
If we were under communism like TZM promotes, this protest would never of occurred but luckily we live in a Democracy where protests are ok to do unlike communism. TZM is a very small cult group on the internet as their are many other legitimate movements within occupy wall street that have way way more people, and more importantly their not on the outer fringes of society like the conspiracy theory cult movement TZM is. So why would occupy wall street want to be associated with this tainted small potatoes when their are far better pickings just about anywhere else...
People like Jared Lee Loughner who got national media attention in the Arizona shootings has been a TZM member. TZM also allows for it's members to conduct and support terrorists activities on their website forum but if you happen to criticize Peter Joseph or it's admins your topic gets closed and it disappears off the site so one has an idea where TZM priorities lies.
http://muertos.blog.com/2011/08/17/distburbing-words-the-zeitgeist-movements-violent-undercurrents/
When TZM boasts that is has 1,100 chapters all around the country those numbers are pure BS and it's numbers are relatively small. I wouldn't rely on TZM members giving any accurate information since the majority is just dogma.
First of all, The Zeitgeist Movement is not a cult like the Scientology. You dont know very much about the ZM. I think you just see what you want to see... There are big differences between ZM and communism; The most important difference between communism and the Zeitgeist Movement is its relationship to the working class. Communism/Socialist philosophies are largely concerned with the welfare and status of the working class while the Zeitgeist Movement wants to eliminate the working class altogether through technological automation. But more importantly communism and socialism does not take into account our relationship with the planet and its resources while in the Zeitgeist Movement this is the central focus.
The Zeitgeist Movement does not support a crazy guy like Jared Lee Loughner, and what he did. If you read about what Zeitgeist Movement stands for, you would know that its a NON violence organisation, just like the OccupyWallStreet!
Communism was intended to be without money, TZM RBE is intended to be without money.
Jared Lee Loughner was a movement member and TZM actively keeps a hit list on their website of people to harass.
I'm sorry you have it all wrong. TZm is just a movement that is the long arm of the venus project. When you say stuff about "Zeitgeist Movement wants to eliminate the working class altogether through technological automation" you are describing the venus project and not the Zeitgeist Movement. I really feel you need to look over your cult material again because TZM is just a cult movement towards a TVP.
TZM does support people like Jared Lee Loughner and allowed terrorist action to be conducted on it's forums as I have provided the link to the action. Peter even said he wouldn't have deleted that terrorists thread on the forum but the author of the thread asked for it to be removed. TZM isn't like occupy wall street at all matter in fact from what I got from Peter Joseph he doesn't want the movement members to participate in occupy wall street he just wants his members to teach the occupants of occupy wall street TZM ideology about a RBE. I don't think TZM supports occupy wall street as far as it' attempts to recruit more members into it's cult.
TZM members are so delusion that they really think they really think TZM has something going for it. I think deep down TZM members know they don't have a thing going for them and if it wasn't for occupy wall street they'd have nothing at all. This delusion that Occupy Wall street should converse only with TZM or that TZM should be the center of occupy wall shows how brainwashed as well as shows TZm members dogma based belief system.
TZM attacks anybody that criticizes them and even goes to such extents as post personal information about it's critics on the internet much like how Scientology operates. TZM also has a list on their site forums that they deem as enemies to the movement and have used this list to take peoples personal facebooks down that they deem enemies of the movement much like the list Scientology has. If TZM truly had something going for them they would know it and not do such attacks but they have nothing like always and they mainly try to leech off others in a attempt to recruit by spamming websites to believe in their ideology that isn't based on science but based on dogma.
Peter Joseph doesn't "run" TZM any more than ANYONE "runs" OWS, and whether he "wants" TZM members to participate wouldn't matter. TZM is about thinking and doing for yourself. And it's not that PJ doesn't "want" us to participate in OWS, he just thinks it's too short-sighted and that it's not worth his time. But he's much busier with TZM than the rest of us - in fact it consumes ALL his time - but it doesn't consume all mine, and there's no reason our paths can't converge along the way.
Just because you say so doesn't make you so it just makes you a cult indoctrinated individual. Notice how my post which was not intended to talk about Zeitards and actually has a better solution that could possibly work is not a past riddled with zeitards rhetoric. I'm still waiting for relevant posts to the actually content of the message I'm putting out about the Peoples Party.
I didn't know you knew so much about your leader... You even know and care what your cult leader does on a day to day bases. Of course not you don't have a leader your just obsessed with Peter Joseph for no particular reason to know such details.
LOL, not obsessed with Peter Joseph. I only knew what I told you about him cuz I heard the man say it. I just think TZM's a good idea and haven't heard a better one.
I'm not a Communist, I don't promote Communism and I do not wan't Communism. But what you just described is an Authoritarian Dictatorship. They are not the same thing. And TZM has nothing to do with Communism, we are actually anti- any "ism". Stop repeating things you have heard and start doing your own research.
No dude TZM is bullshit communism dipshit. Get a brain do research out of your TZM conspiracy theory cult cube.
TZM is not just communism.
TZM supports communism never said TZM is communism itself they would like to create communism with their resource based economy. TZM itself is a top down 3 tier level group thats leader is Peter Joseph Merola and that promotes Peter's conspiracy movies.
Yeah it's pretty clear from your statements, planday, that you don't get TZM. If I were you I'd just focus on OWS and leave TZM alone. You're just making yourself sound silly LOL
I'd say the same for you for posting in this topic.
LMAO, uh, read the title of this post my friend. I don't think I was the one who brought up the subject of TZM :-) Have you read the orientation guide? or watched the TZM orientation video?
Maybe I am brainwashed.but don't you think it is a good life for ordinary people,no corruption,no starved children,no polluted environment.I am not an utilitarian
Watch "Zeitgeist Moving Forward" and maybe you will learn what they really stands for. But I think you will just see what you want to see. I think Peter Joseph is one of the most intelligent man there is today. More of his kind and the world would look much much better; for everyone! It's simple to me: the world is for everyone - not just the rich and wealthy! It's time for us to demand justice.
Never seen the third installment to the TZM conspiracy theory set and have no desire to. The third movie is almost 4 hours long, that's way to long but long enough for a person to be brainwashed watching it over and over again.
You don't even know what you are talking about. You declare you haven't even watched the zeitgeist video documentation, i'm sure you neither haven't read the text documentation. You don't even know the Zeitgeist movement and the venus project have separated. I want to know the real reason of your irrational rage against the zeitgeist movement. Have some member of the zeitgeist movement stolen your girlfriend? Are you in love with your mom and your father is from TZM?
Zeitgeist Moving Forward: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
This movie takes a very different approach from the first film.
Congratulation,you have find the right way to cure the illness of world.
Here is a critic of Zeitgeist movement: http://www.themultitude.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21&start=20
Please look at all 3 pages covering this topic.
All you Zeitgeist people need to stop fantasizing about a world that will never exist and start thinking of practical ways to make life better. You're just wasting your time and energy that could be used more productively on real solutions.
Congratulations on your Iserbyt Award.
thumbs up! i agree!