Forum Post: Worker Ownership for the 99%
Posted 12 years ago on March 23, 2012, 11:30 a.m. EST by jk1234
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Excellent post jk1234. Are you aware of this guys work?
http://www.garalperovitz.com/
Here is another link thats related.
http://www.thenews.coop/
Thanks; no, I am not aware.
I can't understand why all of the people on here are choosing to actually comment on crap like this and ignoring posts that present real solutions - grow up everyone !!! They will never ever allow this to happen and it's moot to chase it !!!
this isnt crap this is one of the best ideas i have seen on here.
If you like this idea check this out.
http://www.garalperovitz.com/
Here is another link thats related.
http://www.thenews.coop/
Everything should be held in common, excepting maybe tooth brushes and condoms.
you're an idiot.
It may be true that I am an idiot, but it also has nothing to do with poking a little fun. I didn't invent the notion that property is theft. That comes from Pierre Proudhon, widely considered the father of anarchism. He wrote a book called the Philosophy of Poverty. Marx responded with a polemic entitled the Poverty of Philosophy. I'm not sure I buy any of that (though Marx is more plausible than Proudhon), but it did seem to me that it was appropriate in this particular thread.
I'd pick Proudhon over Marx any day.
I thought my penis was commonwealth, for many grateful holsters, for many years. It was good.
[Deleted]
Aren't federal and public workers' unions the same?
The People serving The People and insist on unions YET The Citizens have NO say in the bargaining, so at least this is not so inherently flawed.
Yep, if workers actually owned their businesses, they'd quickly dismiss their notions of needing unions.
""NATO is staging "Massacre of Christians in Syria by Muslims", by bringing Al Qaida and other radical Islamists to Syria, in order to initiate a war, where they can nuke Iran, give a lesson to rising China, control Middle East oil resources, and allow some people to print as much money as they wish by using petrodollars, so they can control the society and the world through their wealth and power. This will also allow capitalism to continue by breaking the Eastern and the Socialist spirituality which is growing around the world and which is the biggest threat to capitalist ruling elite. ""
End all ownership. Property is theft.
theft of what from who?
Property is the theft of the property by the property owner from the commonwealth.
what commonwealth?
Right now it is a commonwealth of the imagination, but it is a wonderful thing to imagine.
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The hell with the unions, get them out of here. They are partly responsible for the mess we are in today. The unions stand with OWS for one reason only (for support and for you will not occupy them) Otherwise they could give a rats ass about ya's
To hell with you!
My union has done well by me, and done well for my nation.
Take your "wrong wing" anti-union crap elsewhere.
[Deleted]
However you look at it, unions offer the best way forwards.
They did so in the past and they can do so again.
You seem like an angry old man. And yes, unions are good.
Union membership is at a 30-year low in America. Unions represent 8% of the public workforce and 3% of the private sector workforce. It is not mathematically possible for unions to have had ANYTHING to do with the financial meltdown. And that's if unions were represented in the sectors that started the meltdown -- banking and mortgage debt -- which they clearly are not.
Did I mention that unions have been enduring wage freezes, lock outs, downsizing and outsourcing for decades? If anything, unions gave away too much, as when they didn't strike en mass to prevent Reagan from breaking the ATC union. And it's been downhill ever since.
You are thoroughly wrong and deeply naive.
Anti American Troll = leonardsova
Supporter of greed and corruption = leonardsova
Good advertisement of the evil we fight = leonardsova
Like I said before, the unions are only standing with you folks for you do not attack them. If you cannot see the damage they have done to our Country then you are truly blind and naive
Damage??
The worst damage has been done by those that work towards dismantling unions.
There's some nice non-union, coal mining jobs waiting for in in the Appalachians. Don't worry, it's only you life.
damage indeed. Like the people who say union membership should be the employee's choice. That one really gets my blood boiling.
I guess that's why you are always talking ejectimenti.
If you don't want to work in a union shop? Go to the one that pays less down the street.
Isn't that the kind of "choice", you're always going on about?
Practice what you preach.
What on earth? Did you just.... yeah, you did.
Yes, that is the kind of choice I am talking about. People choosing where to sell their labor.
I do indeed practice this. I am practicing my right to decide whether or not to join a union, by joining a union. What's wrong with my employment? Do you really care?
You're spewing chunks again.
Prilosec is now available OTC.
See what happened there? You devolved into ad hominem attacks, instead of our discussion of the issues.
Yeah, but it took you 4 days to figure it out.
It was just tit for tat for your ad hominem attack of unions.
Besides, you do blow a lot chunks. It says so in your name.......:)
I didn't reply because I was busy at work. When did I attack unions?
I am referring to mainly the public and federal unions and some private but mainly public and federal. They are the disease of America
I was referring to all of them.
(R)epelican'ts and their libe(R)tarian cohorts, are the real disease of America.
Damaging our Nation at every turn.
That job is still waiting, there's high turnover, due to death and disease, but what the hey, it's profitable for the corporations, 'cause wages and benefits are kept low..
Unions about destroyed the big three and now they are putting out trash products. Ford is the worst of them all. F the unions
management almost destroyed the big 3,, lax trade laws , allowing foriegn companies to sell in this country thats what destroys i can assure you that workers taking 5% of the profits is NOT what destroys companies
In the big three management was forced to start outsourcing some of their work because of the corrupt unions. Unions constantly demand higher wages, better benefits and they love and protect the lazy worker
when management can afford private jets and million dollar bonuses and stockholders get a 5% return it is not the worker costing the company. it is the worker providing that money. you have been believing propaganda too long you should read and learn and stop believing whatever your told without thinking
Well put, for someone with absolutely no understanding of the industry, nor it's history.
In other words, it's pure 100% BS..
Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures, the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Utter nonsense. Greed is VICE & leads to pain & isolation of the Heart & Soul. You do know the differences between VICES & VIRTUES?
"War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is strength."
--George Orwell, "1984."
And another winner ( total loser ) - Thank you for playing.
Anti American Troll = BullsAndBears
Supporter of greed and corruption = BullsAndBears
Good advertisement of the evil we fight = BullsAndBears
BullsAndBears
Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures, the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Private Messages
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Joined March 23, 2012
Sounds like jealousy. I guarantee you would take my life if you had the opportunity too, obviously you wont admit it publicly. As a matter of fact, I'm sure all of you would take my life if given the chance. Get ahead or get left behind, this world aint changing anytime soon. We make the rules, not you guys.
Narcissism and megalomania is usually accompanied by low self esteem.
You can say what you want about me, whatever makes you feel better. The fact of the matter is, I'm living the good life and yall are protesting because you want what I worked hard for.
Really, I'm a lawyer, not living a bad life (personally). I'm also pursuing a grad degree in molecular biology, so I can't really complain very much about my personal circumstances, but since I'm not a narcissist, I don't only care about myself. I don't personally want anything you worked for, I'm interested in helping those who lack the opportunities I have.
There's a good study about people like you:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201003/why-liberals-are-more-intelligent-conservatives
Your lack of empathy is not only indicative of low esteem, but also low IQ. So you're not only an ass hole, you're also most likely an idiot.
Hey if you want to help the lazy then that is fine and dandy. But don't y'all drag us into the redistribution of wealth garbage .
How about all that money we spend overseas on our deluded mission to "save the world"? Isn't that redistribution of wealth? Or, how about all that money we spend on putting people accused of victimless crimes in prison? The funny thing is if you calculated how much we spend on things like food stamps, section 8, welfare, etc., you'd find it's next to nothing compared to all the truly worthless shit we spend our money on. Our wealth may be redistributed, but poor people aren't the benefactors.
Moreover, you do benefit from those welfare programs. If they didn't exist, then all those poor people might try to camp out on your lawn, or rob you (or your family) while you're walking into your local Walmart. You see, in fact, the more wealthy you actually are, the more you benefit from social welfare programs. Without those programs we get widespread poverty, disruption, chaos, public health epidemics, increases in crime, and overall, a much shittier country (and capital doesn't like to invest in shit holes, unless of course they can make its citizens indentured servants, or they have a lot of oil).
Speaking of throwing money away. All the money we are borrowing from China, the Gov has been sending money to China for years. The Fed, Gov, Congress and the rest of them all need replaced
So what's your problem with occupy Wall Street?
What turned me away was the violence but maybe that was just kids doing it
Well congrats man. You must be the only honest lawyer alive. As far as your article is concerned, I'll take it with a grain of salt. I agree there are some dumb conservatives, but as for me, champ, I am not one of them. An asshole, maybe. But definitely not an idiot. Typically, in order to become a quantitative analyst you need a pretty high IQ.
All good, I like to be an ass hole sometimes, I am a lawyer after all, and I suppose one can be a narcissist and have a high IQ, or maybe you're good at math and have a high IQ, but otherwise just poorly informed. Even the brightest mind isn't worth a shit if it's filled with bad information. Oh and btw, before you talk too much shit about these protesters, realize many of them are also highly educated, have very high IQ's, etc. What you should find remarkable is the fact that people like that are willing to sleep on concrete to enhance the well being of others.
I think I have that same sort of spirit, but when I graduated from high school, my first stop was basic training, then served for 9 years (reserves and active duty, also Iraq in 2005), while working through undergrad & then law school. I thought that was the way to go, but I didn't know that I would be lied to by a piece of shit like Bush, who exploited our country in its darkest hour for the benefit of his military contractor buddies. So if you like republicans, in light of all the facts that should make it apparent to anyone with a brain that they're nothing more than a gang of power hungry psychopaths .... enjoy.
To be quite frank with you, Francis, I think some of these people have their heads in the right place and are in fact very smart people. Even though I don't agree with what they are trying to accomplish, I can respect those people. Unfortunately, this movement has attracted far more of the opposite, incompetent hippies who have no idea what they are fighting for. Because of those people, I can justify my large salary by saying that I will use that money to send my kids to good schools one day, so they don't end up like that.
How do you know this? I mean, do you live in or near NYC? BTW, I don't think anyone is suggesting you shouldn't save your money & send your kids to good schools (assuming obviously they get accepted to those good schools). But what will you say if one of your kids finds him or herself camping out in the Zuccotti Park of the future? Is that what you're gonna wait for under the false dichotomy that either we can have a better society, or you won't be able to send your kids to good schools? That is not logical, this is a false choice. We can have whatever world we want to have, because we're the only species that can exert any real control over nature (and it's just that simple), and where nature imposes resource limitations on the status quo, it just means we need to be more creative. But there's no reason, none, to think that all humans should not have a better world. These are just self imposed limitations.
Yes I have experienced these clowns first hand, first in Chicago and now in New York. And I can only hope my kid doesn't end up like that. If by chance he does end up becoming one of those clowns, I would hope that he is one of occupiers who is actually educated on the cause and not one of the dirty hippies who is just there to be there.
If you want to put it like that .... how many absolute intellectual midgets were at tea party rallies? From some of the video footage I've seen, I'm quite sure the number is very high. To judge any movement like that is just poor analysis. I'm pretty sure that the organizers of the tea party were not ignorant racists, or even necessarily religious extremists. I'm pretty sure they had valid concerns. I'm concerned about our deficit, I'm concerned about the crony capitalism that's partly responsible for that deficit, etc. Considering that ... I didn't judge the tea party by its stupidest elements.
I think they went away because, on average, the age demographic was pretty high (and senior citizens are less likely to have the stamina to sustain a long term protest movement). Occupy Wall Street on the other hand is a different story entirely. On average, it's devotees tend to be between 20 and 40 something (the perfect age demographic to sustain a protest movement). There's some older folks, but I'm speaking of just macro averages. Many of the organizers have PhD's or advanced degrees, and this movement is becoming a well oiled machine.
After all, even the tax increases they're calling for isn't exactly confiscatory tax rates. We're talking Clinton era tax rates (where we had a balanced budget, sort of, and a booming economy). Not that increasing taxes will help our economy (but it will help us manage our debt), however, a 5% or less increase in the top tax rate, is hardly that much of a burden. For those making a good salary (who are not "really" wealthy), keep in mind, the way we apply our taxes is "income over" X amount (so for example, for someone making say $300K per year, a 5% increase in the upper tax rate actually results in a 1.67% increase in their taxes).
You know it's also true that if we raised the Medicare tax by 0.25% (that is a quarter of one percent) now, and another 0.25% further down the road (for a total of a half of one percent increase in the rate) Medicare would be solvent (now and forever). It's also true that Medicare insures the highest risk segment of our population, for a cost LOWER than it costs to pay for private insurance for a young worker (so the idea of getting rid of Medicare ... is absolutely nuts).
I'll be honest, I read the first paragraph and just skimmed the rest, I don't feel like getting into a huge debate right now nor do I have the time. You're a smart man, Francis. I respect that. I realize that this movement does have good intentions, I just don't agree with most of your ideas. As far as monetary and fiscal policy go, you can argue both ways for hours. Not sure if you've ever heard this one, but if you gather up 5 economists and ask them the same question, you'll get 5 different answers (unless one is from Harvard, then you'll get 6 different answers). So I'm not going to touch that subject right now. As far as medicare, I only have a basic understanding of health economics. But I do agree on that issue that medicare should stay. Thinking as an economist on this issue, it would be detrimental to get rid of medicare.
Its people like you, Francis, who I honestly do respect. You gather your thoughts and present them in an acceptable fashion. I would like to believe that you were not one of the yahoos waving a doughnut in front of the police officers. If your group had a well spoken leader (such as a lawyer) I think more people would respect this movement and y'all would get a lot more accomplished. As it is, this movement is at a stall right now and I can't complain.
Um..............You can't even spell y'all correctly.
Where did you say you went to school?
Outstanding comeback, I'll accept that as a victory. And for your information, I went to Dartmouth.
It wasn't a comeback. It was an observation.
You would have been better served at a community college.
I can't imagine the econometrics or calculus classes would have been as high of a quality at a community college, if even offered at all.
You should have checked, they do offer that and more.
High schools around here, even offer calculus.
Some ever offer English. You should look into it.
I didn't say they don't offer it, as I'm sure some of the top community colleges (LOL!!) offer those classes. I said I wanted a higher quality class. Community college classes just skim the top of those classes, whereas Dartmouth (an Ivy League school) covers those topics in great detail.
They apparently failed to give you a balanced education.
You should have tried a minor in humanities.
Humanity, seems to lacking in your skillset.
Liberal arts majors/minors are a waste of time. What are they going to teach me that I don't already know? Sharing is caring? I already know all of that bullshit, learned it in kindergarten. But you see I don't care about people that have no impact on my life. I would rather take advantage of those people so that I can take care of myself and the people that actually matter to me first.
You know?
I've met many who thought that they were very book-smart.
Most couldn't apply a band-aid let alone their supposed knowledge. Not practically and for good cause anyway.
I'm 69 years old and I've lived a pretty marginal life both economically and in practically every other way imaginable. I've been active in just about every movement for peace and justice that has arisen in this nation in the past 50 years and I would not trade that experience for all the money in the world.
SFB - not everyone worships at your alter of money.
There are more real people then you realize or are prepared to admit.
"The condition of man, is a condition of war against all other humanity" There's no arguing Hobbes logic on this one.
People do not feed the animals - they just want more slap em once and move on, down vote them but otherwise ignore them.
Especially a troll post. Slap the post once if you feel you need to but don't hang around and feed it.
Please!
This has been a public service announcement.
Because.
The more you know.
Classic Marxist, always overlooking Hobbes' obvious implications of humanity.
Classic dip shit, never pondered the implications of Hobbes' pampered life style as the king's little bitch.
How can you disagree that Humans are naturally selfish? Living in a world with scarce resources, would it be more wise to take care of yourself first, or take care of others? The answer is pretty obvious
Selfishness, is a learned response.
Where did you learn to be selfish?
Selfishness is a natural response. I will give you the most remedial example, and hopefully you can understand it. When we are born, we don't care about the well being of others. The only thing on our minds is to take care of our own personal needs. That's about as natural of a state as I can think of, hope you can understand.
You must have learned that in calculus class, as it's untrue.
Sounds like it's just a personal excuse to be jerk, the way you put it.
Care to offer proof of your claim?
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Actually. I believe what you are witnessing now is the systematic reevaluating of such a flawed notion. Especially, considering the fact that those finite resources you mentioned are known to be finite, something Hobbes never had the clarity to know, considering he never seen the Earth from a space station and realized just how complex and fragile our existence is.
Even if that was how it was back then, and is how it is now, your high price education should have opened your mind enough to realize that that cant be how it will be. You really think all that money you have can protect you when shit gets real and resources get scarce?
It's called enlightened self interests, and those that graduated top in their class should have figured it out.
One of the best skills I learned while I was in school was how to take advantage of others. It was a means of self preservation, in a way. That skill has opened up many doors for me. So yes, if that time ever comes where my money can't protect me, than I think I will do fine.
Shit, boy, I learned that when I was sixteen years old. Guess what? It always comes back and bites you in the ass; either mentally, physically, economically or socially, your ass is through. The world can be a cold, dark place when all your bridges are burnt.
Well, I know you clowns are praying for the world to end so you can end your sad lives, but its not going to happen anytime soon. Im doing alright for myself, and I know how to take care of myself if something does happen. So you can say karma is going to bite me in the ass and believe whatever other crazy theories you can come up. Whatever helps you deal with the fact that it isn't the nice guys who win, because those are the first people I take advantage of.
Do as it says, not as it do.