Forum Post: Why OWS is important (and a letter to the Trolls)
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 3, 2011, 3:07 a.m. EST by diamondf
(79)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Dear Trolls that posting desperately on this forum in a pitiful attempt to push people's attention away from a movement that scares you,
I've watched the threads. I realize you have no real arguments against the people here. Mostly you've decided to pursue the completely ridiculous "take responsibility for your own life" line as though that's not exactly what this movement is doing. Some of us are aware of corporate corruption and therefore support the movement. I'm a six-figure small business owner, and I employ seven people. I achieved that from a long, arduous road starting from debt. I am legally classified as a genius. I am not part of the 1% yet, though I am one who is fairly likely to achieve it in my lifetime. I suspect I am therefore statistically amongst the best people to enlighten you as to the reasons this movement is, in fact, a very important one.
The truth is I support this movement for a myriad of reasons that would probably take me days to explain, and in all likelihood you would choose to ignore all of them. I understand why you choose to do this, but it nevertheless saddens me, as it should everyone who has any sense of morality. For the few of you who are perhaps here to learn rather than demonize the movement for the sake of retaining the status quo, here are a few important points:
First, let me state a positive party point for you. Corporations are necessary for a world growing like ours. This is true. They can provide infrastructures and research to develop technologies that small businesses would not be able to effectively produce on their own (at least without a great deal of effort). We are not opposing this. We are, however, not ignorant to the atrocities that they have committed in order to further their monetary actions. There are select people of extraordinary wealth that have exploited the system for personal, selfish gain, at the expense of the American people (or, really, any country in the world). The morality of it is reprehensible. That is something that we do oppose.
By now, you should realize that corporations have lobbyists in government. There is one reason for this: to influence law. That is directly contradictory to a free market. So if you support a free market, then you should be assisting with the Occupy movement, because they are intelligent enough to realize that regulations in our system favor the corporate agendas to an extent where the entirety of what a free market stands for is impossible. In a free market, every competitor has a fair chance. As it stands, we do not have anything remotely close to a free market. The republicans say they stand for a free market, yet are supporting the very ideals that would push us further away from one. Allowing the corporations to go "unregulated" would just mean they retain total control over what regulations they can put on their competitors. And the result is that small businesses would be unable to compete, forcing everyone into a compliance of however corporations wanted to run things.
You seem to hate government for the qualities that corporations possess, but you don't seem to be capable of making that distinction. Tell me, what is health care? It's a fee that is spread between a collective pool to make sure that everyone can get treatment. And what is health insurance? It's a fee that is spread between a collective pool to presumably assist with medical costs. But what is the real difference between the two? Accountability. Whether it's corporations handling a major project or the government, the result is the same with one fundamental difference: who do you trust, and why. And if your instinct is to trust corporations, why? Are you blind to what has taken place? Are you really so unobservant that you can't see that health insurance has been committing atrocities to Americans and those that they are supposed to be helping? They don't have to be transparent or accountable in their actions, and they've been doing everything in their power to grow their wealth at the expense of the people that really need their help. There's so much more to this, but we move on...
(( Content was too long, see next replies. ))
Obviously we could site any other number of reasons, but what's the point? Your retaliations on this thread are inevitably going to be the same as everything else: "You liberal hippies need to stop playing hacky sack and do something worthwhile!" or whatever completely unrelated nonsense you guys do when you don't have a solid argument to use.
So, in conclusion, if you're honestly unaware of the corruption (which, if you're actively trying to push people away from the forums like this, I highly doubt), then you're just being intentionally ignorant of the situation. If you are aware of the corruption, but are so entrenched in your political agendas that you aren't willing to do anything about it, then you're just sad. I hope that there are those among you that will perhaps take some time to reflect on yourselves and what is truly important in this world.
This is an excellent post and it points out a very important distinction regarding the whole Capitalist vs. Socialist debate:
All developed societies Capitalize some resources while socializing others. This is healthy and promotes stability.
Capitalism would be dead on the table if it had not been for the New Deal.
Yes! I am a progressive Socialist but still support a Free Market were harder work and/or creativity are rewarded. You work harder you get more, but it is "work" that should be rewarded - not just making money from money, i.e. Capitalism --> we need to heavily regulate "Capitalism" especially Investment Banking while freeing up the actual "Free Market" where Industrial Corporations and small businesses actually produce tangible goods -- Wall Street does not "Produce" anything but complicated derivitive math for People with lots of money to make more money by leeching it away from the actual productive market that they now own and are destroying!!!
Indeed! People should be rewarded for hard work and for providing valued products and services, not for taking risky bets with other people's money and certainly not for crashing our economy.
Hitler was a socialist and a fascist; the 2 aren't mutually exclusive. That said, yeah, there is a shallow, knee-jerk hostility in the US against anything even remotely 'socialist', which is a carry over from Cold War anti-communist hysteria.
Numerous common sense proposals have been successfully defeated over the years with nothing more substantial than shallow appeals to fear of 'creeping socialism'. People dismiss obvious successes of certain socialist programs in healthy, capitalist democracies such as national health care in modern Germany NOT by sound argument and evidence but by shallow derision ("that's socialist!").
One big reason for this is that even the most 'progressive' politicians cave into this fear by shying away from the S word. Look, a good idea is a good idea, regardless of whether it's 'socialist'. We need to get past the irrational dated fear of 'creeping socialism'. Instilling some modest common sense social reforms that have been demonstrably successful elsewhere is not a threat to capitalism, but over the long term refusal to do so is.
Hitler was as socialist as we are democratic. He used the word "socialist" to describe himself, just as we use "democracy" to describe ourselves, but we in truth are a Constitutional Republic. We're not even close to a true democracy. Not that a true democracy would actually be superior to a Constitutional Republic, but the two are different things. We call ourselves a democracy because it sounds good. Hilter called himself a socialist because at the time, it sounded good. It doesn't make him one. Like all governments, he had projects funded with government money, but the distribution of where that was certainly could not be constituted as anything genuinely representative of a socialism. He was, however, highly representative of Fascism.
Though yes, I do agree with everything you mentioned.
Great post.
Thank you :)
The market is free, but you have to pay lobbyists to govern it.
May Hermain Cain visit you at the Capitol Hilton.
What does that statement have to do with anything?
Wow, I hope your words open some eyes. It's great to know that I'm not the smartest person that I think I am. lol
Thank you :) I'm glad that you're involved with the movement in a positive way :)
well stated...
Thanks :)
There is often much misunderstanding between socialism and social programs. Our countries social programs are not socialism.
Need help making a t-shirt. We need to draw a picture of Zooccotti Park with a cage around it. Here are some ideas: Draw a hippie climbing the cage like a monkey and throwing shit.
Draw a hippie rolling in mud and shit like a pig.
Draw a hippies fucking like dogs.
Draw a picture of a hippie eating peanuts like a big fucking elephant. Draw a hippie as a lazy fucking Ape doing nothing.
Thank you for drawing attention to the level of intelligence that republicans possess when it comes to important conversations.
Screw you, your the Obama basher. I'm a god damn proud democrat!
You clearly have problems. I'd say they were mentally related, but we both know you're just acting full of shit for a specific reason. You know what you're doing. It's emotional issues that trouble you.
Trolls eh? They keep telling people like me to get a job... which is odd because they spend all their time on the internet spreading hate speech like Nazi's. I hate to compare them to Nazi's but most of them don't know what the caste system in India is.
I have a job... I just don't like corruption in my government and I don't like that my US dollar has decreased in value and is continuing to decrease in value. My main job is directing the local news in my city. My second job is wanting to make my country a better place.
You, sir, are an amazing person.
Which Diamondf are you today? Two faced bitch.
And we are both conversing with each other? Go figure.
thanks for the post. its one of the best that i've seen on this forum.
Thanks rayl :) Glad to see that you support the movement :)
this one one of the best posts i've read on the forum!
thanks diamondf
Excellent discussion! Thank you. I've book marked it to finish reading in the morning.
Thanks Wat :) I'm glad you like it.
Socialism is good. It simply means taking care of your fellow man. Only greed centered mixed up folk would find demerit in that.
(good forum post)
Yeah, a lot of people abuse the concept of socialism after it's been demonized for so long. It really makes you wonder why people would pay attention to things that get demonized so strongly. You'd think those are the exact sort of things that you should be paying attention to...
Anyway, thanks :)
You must be a genius because this is worded perfectly. I have to say that in other words I have said about 85% of what you've said here at some point in time over the past month. Where can i go to take the genius test? Hahaha just joking. Really awesome post, man.
Here's 1 answer to the 2 part problem.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c112:1:./temp/~c112dvlsYc:e643:
If this bill passes, the only thing left to do is end campaign financing and donations to politicians and government.
Please look into this bill and call your senators about it. It's currently under review at the Financial Institutions and Consumer Credit Committee.
We all can agree that corruption exists in our government. Liberals and conservatives need to put everything else aside and solve this one problem together. After that we can go back to pointlessly bickering with each other. because that's what they want. They want us to waste time with each other instead of going after the real problem.
The link doesn't work unfortunately. I believe you linked a session address rather than a permanent one.
But your comment "After that we can go back to pointlessly bickering with each other. because that's what they want. They want us to waste time with each other instead of going after the real problem." --- so well stated :) Thank you for being an awesome person.
Damn. Here's a new link. This is a very important bill. Share it.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.2990.IH:
if that doesn't work google HR 2990 National Emergency Employment Defense Act of 2011
Wow, it actually addresses constitutional authority to create money. A very important bill indeed xD I haven't read over all of this yet, but I'll keep looking it over. I'm already very impressed, and it's obvious that this would actually be legitimately helpful to Americans.
Kucinich should have been president. That's why the bill is so good. He's been calling out congress for years. From the patriot act to the federal reserves, he's always said NO.
"Progressive Socialist" is an oxymoron, kind of like military intelligence. The progression of socialism any time in history eventually fails, or becomes one of the other "isms" all fail always. So I'd re-think my identification if I were you.
The individual that said that is perfectly fine to say it; what's wrong with progressive socialist? Every government throughout history has failed or is in the process of failing. The problem is deeper than just the nature of the government. And just because a government claims to be socialism doesn't make it good. There are good aspects to capitalism, socialism, democracy, republics, etc, but any of them can be corrupted. So that argument is irrelevant.
Secondly, are you suggesting that having a military is retarded? What part of that makes sense to you? If somebody breaks into your house and decides they're just going to take it over, do you just surrender helplessly and let them take it? Or maybe it would be nice if there were some sort of police force to end the crime in the area and make sure you keep your house. Oh, right, we do have a police force. Because sometimes defense is necessary, important, and get this, intelligent.
I suppose in a totally ABSOLUTIST world where everything was strictly black and white, someone could make the ridiculous comparison to military as being always aggressive and therefore evil. If that is the capacity to which you see, then yes, military intelligence would be an oxymoron. But reality doesn't support that, so personally I'd suggest you reconsider your outlook on the world. There are a lot of people in the world that deserve to have people fight for their rights. And there are a lot of people that deserve to be fought. I would say in those situations, having a military is quite intelligent. Stop making black and white comparisons.
All worthwhile goals but is this really the platform of OWS? I have seen everything from ending the monetary system to starting a new Gaza flotilla advocated here in the forums, and crazier ideas on signs during the marches. Without stated goals it is hard to figure out what they are advocating, and as importantly what they are not advocating.
Second, the tactics of the movement undermine efforts to achieve the goals. Camping in the park does not increase your credibility on reforming the financial system. The Tea Party model is right there in front of us to learn from - change comes from votes, not from creating communes in city parks.
I somewhat agree with your concerns but have come to respect the natural, democratic process and evolution it is taking. My hope is that many, the masses, hopefully get engaged and take part in setting the direction of this movement. The extreme views would be balanced out. Even though I disagree with some of the extreme views, it has gotten me to think quite a bit about my views.
I have infinitely more faith in the genuine, true, democratic, long term potential of THIS movement compared to the tea party's short term "success" which represents the interests of a small portion of our country. I agree with their concern over debt and hope that is included in this movement, but it must be addressed fairly and smartly.
Like you, I hope a "platform" is stated soon. In the meantime, I am patiently learning, getting involved, hope to contribute my thoughts, encourage others to join in the discussion, and have learned much from people with diverse points of view.
I also agree with your concern regarding tactics. I hope they are chosen carefully. Some are clever, impressive, moving, inspiring and got me engaged. Some tactics might make me a little nervous but mostly so it doesn't harm the movement since I agree with its underlying concerns and hope it does not scare "sensitive" people....but I realize this is a messy process and if they cant take it, being overly "neat, clean and careful" would be just as harmful to this movement. So lets do our best and fight the good fight!!! :)
The problem is these kids seem to think that history began the day they learned to read. This has been tried before, over and over again, and it always ends the same way. It is time to look at how other groups have succeeded, coupled with a realistic assessment of the political environment (this is not 1968 or czarist Russia). Focused, active minorities usually get their way over the passive, apathetic majority but the operative word here is "focused" - this movement can't just accept the policy agenda of anyone who wants to join and turn out a 150 point manifesto.
Pick one or two issues, and drive them through the democrat primary. That is what the Tea Party has done on the Republican side with the taxation and spending issue.
I really appreciate your comments. This is really getting me to think. I will learn more about this. I hope people like you continue to offer advice to help turn people's desire to FIX this country into ACTION. And not just be ignored, exploited or overrun by small groups with the resources and/or knowledge of HOW to manipulate and have their way.
The tea party? And what part of them we should be learning from? What of their model to spout hate and aggression, demonizing the democrats and polarizing the extremes of politics so that our country stagnates, plaguing us with the inability to progress in any direction? What of their "free market" policies which I addressed previously, being inherently flawed in the ideals they're supposedly pushing for?
Pick up any history book and you'll find that movements were achieved through demonstrations and protests, not by everyone secluding themselves in a booth and voting once every few years.
Ideology aside, how about their ability to affect public policy through the threat of "primarying" Republicans who don't share their views. Imagine a democrat party taking the same hard line on banking reform that republicans have taken on tax increases.
I'm not sure what history books you are reading, but in America very little on a national policy scale has been achieved by this type of protest since the 1960s - America does not respond to radical movements.
"very little on a national policy scale has been achieved by this type of protest since the 1960s" --- Which is obvious, since there haven't really been any movements, either. The last large movements took place back then, which, coincidentally, America listened to. Thus giving more credit the point I previously made. The same is true around the world. Whether you like it or not, the world does respond to movements.
I understand your desire to call them radical in an attempt to demonize OWS, but personally I don't see issues of discrimination as radical, so comparing the two is rather bigoted.
No one is calling the 1960s civil-rights movement radical, so dismount from your high horse. However, If you think that OWS is in any way equivalent to the 1960's civil rights and anti-war movements, then I will have to respectfully question your stated genius classification. OWS does not and never will reach the moral clarity or emotional impact of those movements. Banking reform is not going to be advanced through campouts.
OWS doesn't even have any agreed upon goals, and if this forum is representative there is unlikely to be agreement. These narcissistic kids think they are replaying 1968 by dressing in their finest urban-guerrilla chic and chanting "the whole world is watching" when local news shows up. It's just not the same.
Here is how this plays out - the OWS numbers dwindle as winter sets in. The remaining participants grow frustrated with the lack of progress and attempt increasingly drastic actions to maintain media attention and we end up with some violent event that alienates more people from the movement, until the cops finally roll the whole thing up and most people say good riddance. Meanwhile, after months of news coverage of anarchists in Oakland and rapes, port-a-potties and twinkle fingers in NYC, no progress will have been made on the issues we can guess that OWS cares about.
Meanwhile, back in the real world of electoral politics, the tea party is affecting actual policy as the nation and the rest of the western world try to figure out how to deal with the new economic reality, and no equivalent pressure is being applied from the political left because everyone if focused on whether kids camping in the park are going to freeze to death.
First of all, the tea party is "affecting actual policy" by demonizing education, regulations (that we need), and anything else they disagree with in a pathetic attempt to push people away from what actually needs to be done. The tea party is a joke.
As for OWS having achieved nothing with their protests, the entire conversation of politics has changed because of them. A few months ago we were arguing over the debt ceiling; an arbitrary number that the tea party and extremist republicans are using to demonize the Obama administration, despite the fact that it's nature hasn't really been any different prior to them coming in.
Unlike the tea party, OWS isn't succumbing to the same BS special interests that always occurs in politics. So, yeah, congratulations at achieving the same policies of corruption that you claim to oppose. While I agree that some form of direction could be suited in particular ways, the idea that the tea party is in any way representative of an honorable group is hysterical.
My point was about the Tea Party's organizing strategy, not their ideology which I don't agree with either. In their ability to affect the policy debate they are no joke - they have taken over one of two major political parties and set the terms of the national economic policy discussion.
OWS has not changed the conversation of politics - we have merely been in a lull while the congressional special deficit committee negotiates - we'll soon return to budget issues as the ageement deadline approaches and the "sequester cuts" loom. To the extent OWS has generated conversation it has primarily been about the spectacle of kids camping in the park and fighting with police, not about the issues.
The reason those are the things being targeted is because that's what the media is trying to focus on to drive attention away from the OWS. Corporations aren't retarded. They know that if OWS got proper attention, people might actually start getting informed. God forbid that happens...
And they haven't taken over the republicans, they were always a part of them. They were a relation to Obama's administration. An administration that embodied actual and proper change to government and corporate workings. The agenda is to make them stand out as the "outsiders" that valorously came in and made something achievable, but that's nonsense. The republicans wanted to push extremism against what Obama was doing, and so they carefully orchestrated it through the tea party. Their organizing strategy relies on a corporate driven media that the OWS is never going to have on their side. When it comes to changing the status quo and handling the problems that corporations don't want to see changed, then OWS is on the right track with its movements. If OWS wanted to succumb to the status quo and go the direction of corporate domination, then sure, they could achieve things the same way the tea party is.
That's nonsense, there is no great corporate media conspiracy against any organization. Journalists are biased towards the easy story that gets viewers. If they go down to OWS and no one is giving them a focused issues-based story they are going to write the easy human interest story about the port-a-johns and the women-only tent.
Go to any tea party forum and they think the media is conspiring against them as well. Certainly Fox did the Tea Party a few solids but the coverage in most other outlets has been mostly unflattering - yet the tea party still got a focused message out.
Very good points. You seem really knowledgeable about this. I must admit I am not. But I would like this movement to prevail, to make positive change.
I have worried about some of the possibilities you listed in other comments--how this movement could possibly peter out in winter and the effective organizational elements of the tea party. Can you please give this some thought and summarize what you think would be a more effective approach? I am sincerely asking. I am sincerely interested and curious and want to learn. And I hope it would help others like me and who might pass those suggestions on or express support for such approaches--this is a democratic process and I feel confident I (or anyone else) would be heard.
I am really torn. On one hand, I see the truth and sincerity of how OWS is going about it currently...just doing it and encouraging dialogue, taking action, calling-out wrong-doers and speaking truth to power, etc. Boot strapping it and gaining the sympathy of people like me. etc. Suffering outdoors in harsh winter weather. I honestly think I might actually try it. It is REALLY scary and I realize I could be harmed if I attempt it (cold weather). But this might test my resolve if I really believe in this cause. For the meantime, until I decide on that step, I sincerely appreciate the folks out there NOW. I support you and appreciate YOU. Bloomberg, if you harm them or deny them, you can bet average people like me will be outraged!!!!!!
On the other hand, whether i agree or disagree with the ideology of the tea party and their "successful" tactics--is this REALLY the way to fix things, to change things? Although I am not a political expert, my gut tells me that the sneaky, "strategized", bullying, uncompromising tea party approach is NOT the way to fix the challenges we face.
I somewhat rather fail trying the "righteous" way, than have small victories the "politically effective" way. But I certainly prefer this movement prevails and brings about the change needed.
It seems the problems we have are SO big, the system is SO broken, SO rigged and needs to be dramatically fixed. For this, we need to have many Americans on board to fight the EXTREMELY powerful interests. Hmm, I'm almost answering my own question. Logic might say you need to rationally appeal to a large majority of americans???
Another cause for change I have noticed is when something so horrific, so unjust, so unconscionable happens, a majority of Americans join together to fight and overcome. Doesn't the near COLLAPSE of our economy count??? I think so, but it is complicated, people like me are slowly learning the true cause/effect of what happened, and only now feel we can actually do something about it.
Therefore, I think continuing to call attention to the injustice, the crimes, the greed, the consequences is correct. At the same time, encourage people to discuss and learn, share ideas for cures. Then come together and democratically DEMAND and implement the agreed fixes/solutions/changes.
However, as I said, I am no expert. What do you think?? What do others think???
Pick one or two issues - banking reform, student loan reform. Something people can get behind even if they don't buy into the full 1% conspiracy. Focus exclusively on those one or two issues. Apply pressure at the most vulnerable point, which in this case is the base of the democrat party and its primary (congressional, not presidential). Most of the participants in this primary agree with you.
That is what the tea party has done.
Thanks. One thing I have heard in comments is that the system is so corrupt that this problem cannot be addressed within the current system. While I consider myself an independent centrist, i must admit I am more liberal than conservative...democrats have seemed ineffectual/uncoordinated so I would hate to entrust such important issues to them. And the issues of this movement seem greater than a democrat issue...it seems a majority of AMERICANS need to agree with this and get behind it. If only democrats are targeted, that might discourage conservatives from joining in, no? And when you have stubborn tea partiers just BLOCKING everything, who's to say dems wouldnt do the same? I'm tired of all idiots in washington playing politics. Isnt this a much larger issue to clean house on left, right and middle?
I'm typically a cautious person in my professional life. While I make few mistakes/losses/"failures", I'm often impressed by the larger accomplishments of more daring people risking big. OWS and the common people they are reaching seem fired up and ambitious. While I agree with your wisdom, I cant imagine it would be easy to narrow their passion and ambition.
None-the-less, I agree with your advice DT and it should be implemented as much as possible:
OWS, concentrate the list as much as possible! Lets focus our efforts and make change happen!
No bias in the media, and not driven by corporate interests? Ahahaha. Right. As if the wealthiest people alive are too stupid to realize that policies are driven by the media and have decided to retain journalistic integrity in favor of pushing agendas. When have the rich ever attempted to lobby anything, despite the interests of Americans... that would be outrageous, and totally underhanded. Yeah, that sort of thing definitely doesn't exist.
Since it seems you ignore the obvious, I'm being sarcastic. The media drives people to maintain whatever corporate interests their paid to, and supports it with emotional influence. It's a simple fact of life that emotions bind people to ideas more effectively than facts do. Do you realize how much money has gone into market research and understand human psychology so that they can learn how to convince people to do things? People are SO convinced that commercials don't affect them, and yet, corporations launch gazillions of dollars into it. Why? Because it works. The same is true of the media. These guys aren't amateurs. They know exactly what they're doing. Like you, they're demonizing the movements they want to suppress. While you may not understand the neurology behind it, you at least grasp the importance of it at some level: get your opponents to have a negative emotional reaction to discourage them from continuing their pursuit, as well as to prevent others from paying attention.
Ridicule is the most effective form of brainwashing that exists. And sadly, that's all the republicans have to offer us these days. Ridicule. All the time. They try desperately to avoid any genuinely intellectual conversations in favor of demonizing anyone who has any helpful ways to alter the system in a meaningful way that would disrupt their corporate-backed agendas. Face it, everything from politicians to media is driven by the wealthy, who are directly facilitating the ways it works.
The idea that media organizations get together in their editorial meetings every morning and say "how are we going to supress OWS and serve our 1% corporate masters today" is ridiculous. I have worked in the industry for 12 years I can tell you it does not happen. I was hoping, based on your initial post, that this conversation was not going to devolve into conspiracy theories.This sounds like the left wing version of the liberal media conspiracy the tea partiers and sarah palin rant about.
If you make the spectacle of your actions more superficially interesting than the goals of your actions then the media will cover the spectacle every time - especially on TV. Not sure how you expect the media to turn OWS coverage into an expose on the 1% and the solutions offered by the Zuccotti Park campers when they as a group don't even know what they want.
Looks like no further comments are allowed below, so I will reply above. FOX is one media outlet out of many - certainly a number of shows on MSNBC and other places take the opposite viewpoint. Your previous posts make it seem that you believe there is a monolithic media conspiring to promote the agenda of "the wealthy" by hiding what is really going on from their readers.
I also think you also mistake critisism for ridicule - certainly there is quite a bit of both on this forum, by people that have different viewpoints.
So now we have moved from conspiracy to brainwashing. If claiming that others are brainwashing is in itself a brainwashing technique, then aren't you engaged in brainwashing yourself in your comments below.
What part of any of that is a conspiracy? Look at FOX, lol. It's pure, BLATANT right-wing rhetoric. It's not even remotely concealed to anyone with half a brain. And then they go out and claim that liberals are brainwashing others with their propaganda, despite the fact that itself is a brainwashing technique.
Do you know what the most effective form of brainwashing is? Ridicule. That's why people pathetically use it in political debates. Because people listen to it and henceforth become controlled by it, and in turn use their own ridicule. That's why there's a gazillion trolls on this forum. Because the media has pointed them in the direction of hate and anger. Please tell me, Mr. 12 years in media, that you're not blind to this.
Conspiracy..... good lord, find a different job.
Great post.
"Too much and too long, we seem to have surrendered community excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our gross national product ... if we should judge America by that - counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage. It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for those who break them. It counts the destruction of our redwoods and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl. It counts napalm and the cost of a nuclear warhead, and armored cars for police who fight riots in our streets. It counts Whitman's rifle and Speck's knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children.
Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education, or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages; the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage; neither our wisdom nor our learning; neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country; it measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it tells us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans."
Robert F. Kennedy Address, University of Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas, March 18, 1968
"The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. The banking powers are more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. They denounce as public enemies all who question their methods or throw light upon their crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe."
Abraham Lincoln
Thank you for sharing!
Great post. All of our right wing congress people should be asked why, if they support free markets, they don't support an end to corporate lobbying and funding of electoral campaigns.
Thanks ProgOwl :)
hear hear!
There's a lot of truth in your post.
Unfortunately I believe the importance of OWS now extends far beyond corporate influence in our own nation's government.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/end-game-possible-economic-changes-ahead/
Excellent Post.
Create sign and send petitions. The more inputs we have the better. http://occupywallst.org/forum/create-sign-and-send-petitions/
A site to submit issues have them collected, collated and submitted. www.lobbydemocracy.com
Contact the White house: http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact
Contact the senate: http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
Contact Congress: http://www.contactingthecongress.org/
Contact the house of representatives: http://www.house.gov/htbin/findrep?ZIP=55433
Contact the Supreme Court: http://www.supremecourt.gov/
OUR BANNER/OUR CAUSE
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. July 4, 1776
OWH on Sunday was overrun by a protest group against the pipeline from Canada to Texas.. Support for this coertion of the movement"Occupy the White House" was sanctioned in secret by the General assemblyOWS!! It has now become more than speculation that the DNC progressive wing has infiltrated the entire movement and the General Assembly,and that the President may be in the loop. Demand transparency!! You are being taken over in secret. Demand answers for what happened in DC Sunday!
I'd like to bring more attention to this thread, as it seems to be one of the only ones addressing the trolls of the forum.
I would particularly like to call upon mods to assist in cleaning up the trolls on this forum. This is enough of them, and something should be done about them.
Well regulated capitalism works. How then can we avoid what Jack Abramoff says on CBS 60 minutes? Here it is; http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-57319068-10391709/jack-abramoff-inside-capitol-corruption/
don't worry
no one thinks 6 fingers is a sign of the devil
If you are still confused as to what this movement is about, I stumbled upon this documentary. And i have to say it is the most "to the point" documentary i've seen so far that explains everything in a way that anybody can understand what's going on.
The title is "the end of poverty", it links the economic and social infrastructure that's been set in place since colonial times until now to the poverty and wars we see today. It shows what this 1% is doing to the world in a global scale. What I've been trying to get across is that people are not seeing/understanding the full picture. You have too see everything as the whole world, not just localizing it as a movement in the U.S. It's a global movement/reformation.
All the people on the streets marching right now, whether they know it or not, they are marching for the world as one. The reasons as to why there are so many ideas on change and not just one unified idea when you ask any one of the protesters, it's because of an accumulation of everything wrong in the world. They represent all. That is why many people are confused as to what these protesters are marching for, the "what" is the system we live in.
Please watch this video, it is free on Hulu. Just click on the link. It will clarify things about the world we live in.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/151119/the-end-of-poverty
I agreed. Our system is solely based on greed. It seemed that the big corps. r in control not the Pres. or the ppl. Obama and the rest of fmr Pres. r indebted to the campaign donors after the Presidential election that the Pres. has to repay them many favors not a favor at our taxpayers' expenses (not 1 but a lot). I won't vote for Obama for 2012 neither Rick Perry not Romney or the Tea Party. All of them r a farce and he for himself. They don't care about us at the bottom except for our votes.
http://www.valleylink1.com/occupy
Gay
Right on, OP.
Question: How does one get legally certified as a genius? I want to apply.
I'd like to take the opportunity to offer anyone opposed to the movement a chance to ask questions about any of the topics I've stated. It seems like many of you are instead posting attack threads with no real sense of reality for the purpose of flooding OWS with demonizing tactics.
So consider this a challenge, since this thread has currently gone 12 hours without being addressed by anything other than "you guys suck" and no argument to support it.
This page has now gone over a day without being intellectually challenged. Fascinating.
I think your post has evoked more 'shaking of the head' pity for your delusion than it could ever, intellectual challenge. I suppose that many who are 'legally classified' as a genius have that Spock-y one-word declaration/observation tacked onto the end of sentences?
I suppose then that you'll have no trouble debating me intellectually then. So whenever you're ready to post an actual meaningful response rather than empty words, let me know. I'd love to see it.
Including the word 'intellectually' in a sentence does not, an intellectual, make. What does 'debating me intellectually' mean? Nothing. You're a pretentious, deluded 40 watter like so many others posting here.
So, then, you're not able to? I didn't think so, but then again, you haven't shown me anything but whining. But that's okay, I was looking for the opportunity to show off how people who oppose OWS don't actually contemplate things intellectually. You just spout hate and whine a lot. Thanks for confirming.
And though it might seem a tad mean-spirited, you're one of the reasons I visit here, the entertainment value. Keep it coming Legal Genius!
And by all means, keep whining without any willingness to debate. I personally don't understand why you'd want to discredit your party so much, but it's your call. I mean, really, like 10 posts without a single instance of anything but spouting pointless babble? Sad, really.
And being a Legal Genius I can see there must be great intelligence behind responding to every one of my 'pointless' replies.
I will say , however, that 'Sad, really' has given me pause to reconsider trading comments with the likes of someone with your intellectual stature. lol
What? You don't want to exchange whining all day that gets people nowhere? That's shocking. I am shocked. This is my shocked face :O
My reason is the same as it is for everyone, and the reason I addressed trolls in the first place. First, I'm fascinated by your total lack of speaking up about anything intellectual. I mean, really, even just once. ONE thing. It's like you're allergic. Would it be so hard to bring up something? Secondly, you do an ideal job of showing us what anti-OWS people are like. It's great :)
Candy from a baby. A Legal Genius baby.
Is this what all republicans believe is a legitimate argument? LOL
Yes folks, armed with Direct Democracy and the Trivium, you can crush or make use of ANY Troll AND it's support organization.
After studying the Trivium, you will analyze the Troll's argument before responding, identifying the logical fallacy used by the Troll.....you can then proceed to rip him a new one as eloquently as you please.
Trolls are naturally intellectually ball-less creatures, and easy to identify and zap intellectually when you have Logical Fallacy Radar and Guidance system.
The Trivium..taught to generations of scholars over centuries..Supreme Court Judges know it, and you should too!
Don't get dragged down by an idiot trolls arguments again:
get Radar and Guidance here in one easy hour long video.
http://uponlocal.com/up-on-local-media/content/logical-fallacies-trivium
Troll Killer = Direct Democracy
Dear occupants of wall-street, please understand what a ridiculous and absurd movement this is. How can you protest people who only want to grow and expand as far as economy and business go and create jobs in the process. Why not protest those holding us back like d.c oh ya that would go against you liberal one world government ideas. So sad that you are corrupting the minds of the ill informed to create a country that will only suffer from socialism you should be ashamed.
Healthcare: Why do Americans take so many pills?
The Pharm CO. are legalized drug pushers.
Yeah, but there's a huge demand for these pills. Take away grandma's 10 medications and hear the screaming.
This is a bunch of crap, and ok, so everybody has an agenda. I am absolutely opposed to national healthcare in light of blatant corruption, spending, and the total incompetence of the federal government which goes well beyond those few that actually govern.
"This is a bunch of crap"
Can you provide me with something I've said that is crap so we can discuss it intellectually rather than just demonizing it?
As for the corruption, your views align with the OWS movement. You said that it goes beyond the few that actually govern, which is why OWS has been going after corruption in sources of money.
Oh really? And how is it you would then extend the trust of your healthcare? it's a bunch of crap, meaning it fails the first test of our rationality, which is consistency.
Again, you're really just saying the entire thing is a bunch of crap rather than acknowledging that, like most things, it's not an absolutist situation. It's not all black and white. There are a lot of variables to take into consideration.
So, having said that, is there something in particular that you feel is crap so that we can actually talk about it intelligently?
No: in my opinion single-payer is a definite no. You know, thirty five years ago major medical was provided by the employer, and for those in need we had Medicaid. And it was a system that worked and worked quite well. We have to ask ourselves what has changed over the past thirty years that has driven the cost of insurance to the point of an inaffordability. You want my immediate answer? Let's introduce competition in a radical manner - let's invite the Chinese to our insurance market. Believe me, they'll find a way to make it affordable. And in the process, we'll intro some serious competition.
There's gobs of reasons why prices have gone up, but it's related to greed and the inability to compete. Like I posted, the "free market" that so many people are pushing for isn't actually a free market. Corporate lobbying provides plenty of regulations that they want in place to prevent people from competition or a myriad of other things. People aren't allowed to compete, and it's been further bogged down by terrible legislation that has plagued Americans with completely unfair and ludicrous insurance practices that are meant to rip away every possible dime without any conscience of what Americans actually need. But that's all because of corporate lobbying and certain @$$holes behind it.
A government run health plan has worked wonders for many countries through the world. Our health care is terrible by comparison, and their maniacal control over law is killing us.
"Free Market" is exactly what government continues to practice. So I think we need to be careful with the catch phrases. But we can no longer compete because trade agreements are under cutting us.
It's been my lifelong dream to produce and market toilet paper. Because I know I can do it better. Absolutely. But what are my chances of of a competitive product in this market? Zilch.
Anti-Socialism is not a Cold War carry over. Some people really do belive in in.
All American citizens have police powers, we just let some people make a job out of it. I have has many rights to investigate crimes and arrest people as a uniformed police officer.
Public schools are a joke. Would it be nice if 100% of America could get public education, yes, but why should I pay for Lazy Joe to sit his ass down in US History class and sleep? Or for His sister Sally to get knocked up when she is supposed to be in Calculus class? Public schools should be for those who want it and earn it, not for everyone.
People can use or ignore public schools, but offering it only to people pay for it will return us to a class system far worse than we have now.
God, I'm honestly shocked at this reply.. do you honestly not understand that? What have you been watching or paying attention to actually believe this? I actually want to know, this just doesn't make sense to me at all how anyone could state that and believe it.
Becuase I went to public school. I didn't say everyone should pay, but to offer 12 years free to everyone from, excuse the steryotypes, the "2 grades ahead of hear age asian girl" to the " 'fuck the police' 12 year old kid in a gand is astonishing. Why should everyone get it? Ya they can choose to use of ignore public schools, but if they choose to ignore it, why should I pay for them to do it?
Becuase I went to public school. I didn't say everyone should pay, but to offer 12 years free to everyone from, excuse the steryotypes, the "2 grades ahead of hear age asian girl" to the " 'fuck the police' 12 year old kid in a gand is astonishing. Why should everyone get it? Ya they can choose to use of ignore public schools, but if they choose to ignore it, why should I pay for them to do it?
Okay, but that's different from having the school be free. Giving them a choice to opt out.. yeah, sure, I could care less. If they want to be deadbeats, let them.
That's the thing though, students can't opt out with out parrent concent, and unless you have really shitty parents, most probably wouldn't let their child drop out of school. So, everyone stays. There needs to be a way to tell a kid who doesn't want to to get the fuck out. If you are struggleing but want to, i'm ok with that, if you get it and you are doing good, that's even better but the idea that everyone is entitled to eduaction, even if you have a "fuck it" attitude is to much
If that could be reasonably applied, I could find merit in that decision, but I feel it would be very hard to do and subjective to a lot of bias in the world. Unfortunately, our laws are often designed to be overly strict to compensate for potential biases, or exactly the opposite under the guise of liberty. That decision in particular would be a really hard line to draw. Who has the authority to kick them out and why?
That's why I say you may as well leave it up to the kid. If he's determined to say "screw school", let him walk out, but only in a year-to-year basis. For example, you can't just decide to come back in a week if you're leaving. You're either in or out. Otherwise, kids would just skip class and do petty things like that and be messing with the system that way.
Administration and by going into the class and looking at the students actions and performance. You have a kid that dicks around in calss but get's 100% on test, that's fine. You have the kid who pays attention in clas and gets 30%, that's not "ok" but it's fine that they are trying. You see the kid that dicks around in class and gets 30%, that's the kid you go, "does this kid want this?"
and see that's a good method but then you got the kid who says fuck it one year, goes back the next and realizes that he missed a lot of math, and he's for all intensive pourposes screwed. Personally, I owuld asy it's his fault, but others would say well no, you didn't give me a fair chance, and whatever other excuses they could think of. I think that system sounds fine, but I don't think others would
Perhaps an adaptation would be that if he wants back in a month or so, he's got to pay for the sessions to catch up. That way he's still got a fair chance, now he actually wants it and has a reason to pursue it, and he's not wasting the taxpayer's dollar.
I'ld be ok with that but as it is, I don't support the current public education.
[Removed]
Adopt the following platform to achieve political clout:
Why this is Important Currently Congress is reviewing cutting benefits of millions of Americans while keeping their perks and benefits intact. They must not be treated differently than any average hard working American. If the hatred and the childish behavior we are currently witnessing in the congress does not end soon we must fire the elected representative whether a Democrat or Republican and elect a new member who puts the interest of the millions of hard working Americans before the party. If necessary, the time is now to start a new 3rd party "All American" that governs from the middle representing the most Americans. This party can start with the following platform: 1) Balance the Budget in the next 8 years. 2) Make a pledge to make America energy independent over the next 8 yrs. Start using natural gas for converting national Buses, Trucks and all gas guzzling vehicles to natural gas in the first phase. In many countries mass transit buses and some private automobiles already run on natural gas which is cleaner than regular gas. The technology already exist. 3) Cut the budget of non-essential and non-productive Federal Departments in half. 4) Cut the budget of every other Federal Department except Defense by 10% 5) Review Defense and cut all the waste wherever possible and feasible. Strengthen wherever necessary. 6) Put wage and price freeze across America until we balance the Federal Budget that includes Congress, Federal Employees and ordinary Americans 7) Cut the Expense Budgets of Congressman by 15% and put a mandate that they must travel in economy class in public airlines like most Americans do. 8) Give Tax Breaks to companies that innovate and manufacture in America using American workers. 9) Close all corporate loopholes, stop all subsidies to large oil companies and other profitable public corporations. All large corporation should pay a minimum of 15% corporate tax, no exceptions. 10) Give incentives and low rate loans to bonafide new start-up small companies with a strong business plan that would employ more than 10 employees. 11) Re-evaluate all trade agreements and stop all unfair trade practices by all foreign countries. 12) Give 10% Tax Credit to anyone buying an American car or any American made large ticket item. 13) Require banks to approve all mortgages in a timely manner with clear guidelines to stimulate home buying. Hold banks accountable if they turn down any qualified loan application in a timely manner. Offer $2000 Tax Credit to a qualified new home buyer for the next 3 years 14) Introduce a new 2% National Debt Reduction Tax for all the ordinary American tax payers. Anyone making more than half a million dollars ($500,000) per year would pay 3% National Debt Reduction Tax while all corporations with the revenues over 1 Billion Dollars would pay 4% National Debt Reduction Tax. The budgets of all the federal departments would be frozen until the federal budget is balanced. THIS TAX MUST BE ELIMINATED UPON BALANCING THE FEDERAL BUDGET with a going forward balanced budget amendment without this added tax. 15) Put a 5% National Debt Reduction Tax on all the Chinese imports until the federal budget is balanced. 16) The Social Security and Medical Benefits of all the individuals over 58 yrs would be protected while looking to eliminate waste without reduction in benefits. In the future, Congress should not be allowed to dip in to Social Security and Medical trust fund. The Congress and the Federal Employees will not have a separate program. All individuals should be given control of their own accounts with a limited safe investment options similar to the options available in the annuities offered by many private insurance companies.
IF YOU AGREE, PLEASE MAIL THIS TO EVERYONE CONCERNED ABOUT OUR ECONOMY AND SERIOUS ABOUT FIXING THE PROBLEMS. We must be strong at home to be strong abroad. If we don't fix our problems at home, we would become a laughing stock in the rest of the world. Fire any elected official who play the partisan politics and ignore the reality and fail to understand the pain of ordinary citizens. Do send this to your Congressmen and Senators.
Adopt the following platform to achieve political clout:
Why this is Important Currently Congress is reviewing cutting benefits of millions of Americans while keeping their perks and benefits intact. They must not be treated differently than any average hard working American. If the hatred and the childish behavior we are currently witnessing in the congress does not end soon we must fire the elected representative whether a Democrat or Republican and elect a new member who puts the interest of the millions of hard working Americans before the party. If necessary, the time is now to start a new 3rd party "All American" that governs from the middle representing the most Americans. This party can start with the following platform: 1) Balance the Budget in the next 8 years. 2) Make a pledge to make America energy independent over the next 8 yrs. Start using natural gas for converting national Buses, Trucks and all gas guzzling vehicles to natural gas in the first phase. In many countries mass transit buses and some private automobiles already run on natural gas which is cleaner than regular gas. The technology already exist. 3) Cut the budget of non-essential and non-productive Federal Departments in half. 4) Cut the budget of every other Federal Department except Defense by 10% 5) Review Defense and cut all the waste wherever possible and feasible. Strengthen wherever necessary. 6) Put wage and price freeze across America until we balance the Federal Budget that includes Congress, Federal Employees and ordinary Americans 7) Cut the Expense Budgets of Congressman by 15% and put a mandate that they must travel in economy class in public airlines like most Americans do. 8) Give Tax Breaks to companies that innovate and manufacture in America using American workers. 9) Close all corporate loopholes, stop all subsidies to large oil companies and other profitable public corporations. All large corporation should pay a minimum of 15% corporate tax, no exceptions. 10) Give incentives and low rate loans to bonafide new start-up small companies with a strong business plan that would employ more than 10 employees. 11) Re-evaluate all trade agreements and stop all unfair trade practices by all foreign countries. 12) Give 10% Tax Credit to anyone buying an American car or any American made large ticket item. 13) Require banks to approve all mortgages in a timely manner with clear guidelines to stimulate home buying. Hold banks accountable if they turn down any qualified loan application in a timely manner. Offer $2000 Tax Credit to a qualified new home buyer for the next 3 years 14) Introduce a new 2% National Debt Reduction Tax for all the ordinary American tax payers. Anyone making more than half a million dollars ($500,000) per year would pay 3% National Debt Reduction Tax while all corporations with the revenues over 1 Billion Dollars would pay 4% National Debt Reduction Tax. The budgets of all the federal departments would be frozen until the federal budget is balanced. THIS TAX MUST BE ELIMINATED UPON BALANCING THE FEDERAL BUDGET with a going forward balanced budget amendment without this added tax. 15) Put a 5% National Debt Reduction Tax on all the Chinese imports until the federal budget is balanced. 16) The Social Security and Medical Benefits of all the individuals over 58 yrs would be protected while looking to eliminate waste without reduction in benefits. In the future, Congress should not be allowed to dip in to Social Security and Medical trust fund. The Congress and the Federal Employees will not have a separate program. All individuals should be given control of their own accounts with a limited safe investment options similar to the options available in the annuities offered by many private insurance companies.
IF YOU AGREE, PLEASE MAIL THIS TO EVERYONE CONCERNED ABOUT OUR ECONOMY AND SERIOUS ABOUT FIXING THE PROBLEMS. We must be strong at home to be strong abroad. If we don't fix our problems at home, we would become a laughing stock in the rest of the world. Fire any elected official who play the partisan politics and ignore the reality and fail to understand the pain of ordinary citizens. Do send this to your Congressmen and Senators.
Adopt the following platform to achieve political clout:
Why this is Important Currently Congress is reviewing cutting benefits of millions of Americans while keeping their perks and benefits intact. They must not be treated differently than any average hard working American. If the hatred and the childish behavior we are currently witnessing in the congress does not end soon we must fire the elected representative whether a Democrat or Republican and elect a new member who puts the interest of the millions of hard working Americans before the party. If necessary, the time is now to start a new 3rd party "All American" that governs from the middle representing the most Americans. This party can start with the following platform: 1) Balance the Budget in the next 8 years. 2) Make a pledge to make America energy independent over the next 8 yrs. Start using natural gas for converting national Buses, Trucks and all gas guzzling vehicles to natural gas in the first phase. In many countries mass transit buses and some private automobiles already run on natural gas which is cleaner than regular gas. The technology already exist. 3) Cut the budget of non-essential and non-productive Federal Departments in half. 4) Cut the budget of every other Federal Department except Defense by 10% 5) Review Defense and cut all the waste wherever possible and feasible. Strengthen wherever necessary. 6) Put wage and price freeze across America until we balance the Federal Budget that includes Congress, Federal Employees and ordinary Americans 7) Cut the Expense Budgets of Congressman by 15% and put a mandate that they must travel in economy class in public airlines like most Americans do. 8) Give Tax Breaks to companies that innovate and manufacture in America using American workers. 9) Close all corporate loopholes, stop all subsidies to large oil companies and other profitable public corporations. All large corporation should pay a minimum of 15% corporate tax, no exceptions. 10) Give incentives and low rate loans to bonafide new start-up small companies with a strong business plan that would employ more than 10 employees. 11) Re-evaluate all trade agreements and stop all unfair trade practices by all foreign countries. 12) Give 10% Tax Credit to anyone buying an American car or any American made large ticket item. 13) Require banks to approve all mortgages in a timely manner with clear guidelines to stimulate home buying. Hold banks accountable if they turn down any qualified loan application in a timely manner. Offer $2000 Tax Credit to a qualified new home buyer for the next 3 years 14) Introduce a new 2% National Debt Reduction Tax for all the ordinary American tax payers. Anyone making more than half a million dollars ($500,000) per year would pay 3% National Debt Reduction Tax while all corporations with the revenues over 1 Billion Dollars would pay 4% National Debt Reduction Tax. The budgets of all the federal departments would be frozen until the federal budget is balanced. THIS TAX MUST BE ELIMINATED UPON BALANCING THE FEDERAL BUDGET with a going forward balanced budget amendment without this added tax. 15) Put a 5% National Debt Reduction Tax on all the Chinese imports until the federal budget is balanced. 16) The Social Security and Medical Benefits of all the individuals over 58 yrs would be protected while looking to eliminate waste without reduction in benefits. In the future, Congress should not be allowed to dip in to Social Security and Medical trust fund. The Congress and the Federal Employees will not have a separate program. All individuals should be given control of their own accounts with a limited safe investment options similar to the options available in the annuities offered by many private insurance companies.
IF YOU AGREE, PLEASE MAIL THIS TO EVERYONE CONCERNED ABOUT OUR ECONOMY AND SERIOUS ABOUT FIXING THE PROBLEMS. We must be strong at home to be strong abroad. If we don't fix our problems at home, we would become a laughing stock in the rest of the world. Fire any elected official who play the partisan politics and ignore the reality and fail to understand the pain of ordinary citizens. Do send this to your Congressmen and Senators.
Excellent! Thank you for confirming some things I hoped were true about this movement. And thank you for clarifying something I was a little concerned about (I am greatly in support of this movement but have small worries that some others are extremely worried about--hopefully they investigate a little with an open mind to learn more before they assume and miss an opportunity for enabling positive change): I had previously heard a few extremist things that seemed too extreme. I am an independent, definitely see the many of the problems this movement is protesting, but I prefer rational, reasonable, effective, fair, sustainable fixes and cures...not radical, unrealistic, ineffective backlash. I think reasonable solutions/changes are definitely possible and your post encourages me! Thank you for your thoughtful post!
BTW, I'm thinking of joining the small business and entrepreneur's group so perhaps we cross paths there. http://www.nycga.net/groups/small-business/
Hi there :) Awesome, I'm glad my post was encouraging :)
Here's something they should chew on: China was asked to bail out Europe! What does that tell you about capitalism.
That capitalism is working GREAT for China.
Move to China. We are trying to save America.
And capitalism will be what saves us too once we get rid of the corruption. Most of the notions here will only lead us to third world status and economy.
Not so great for anyone who wants a long life. The toxins in the environment are shortening life expectancy over there.
'Legally classified' as a genius was the telltale sign that you're anything but.
As I've already explained in another section, there are standards for genius level activity. If you are concerned with semantics, I fall into the upper ranks of the 99th percentile in regard to the standard IQ. In other words, I'm in the top 0.1% of intellectual capacity. I addressed this for the sake of addressing people who would want some sort of indication that what I had to say was worthwhile if they couldn't find merit in the content itself.
Now that we've got that out of the way, do you have any meaningful content to contribute, or are you just trolling in an attempt to dissuade people from paying attention to these issues?
More bullshit.
Ah, that's what I anticipated :) Thank you for documenting precisely the level of intellectual response that I would anticipate from republicans. I have yet to be proven wrong about it on this forum. You, like the rest, have provided those of this forum with an ideal example of what you all are capable of: emotional whining, and nothing more.
Heh. And you're intellectually crippled and demonstrate that with nearly every word. You shouldn't be posting here, you should be searching for help on topics like "no self-esteem" and "paranoid projection."
It's fascinating to watch you stumble around the argument that I'm ignorant, yet you continue to refuse having any sort of intellectual debate. But again, thank you. That's what I anticipate from you, and I've enjoyed keeping this topic at the top of the forum.
You might just as well place your index finger between your lips and make a blubba-blubba-blubba sound. I bet something important would result even from that when performed by a Legal Genius. lol
Any time you're ready to converse intellectually, I'll be here waiting... I think it's been like 15 comments you've posted now, not with a single intellectual statement added. Just whining. Really sad.
"Blubba-blubba-blubba" Hahaha!
What if we don't agree that using an anarchy like OWS proposes is the best way to solve our current problems? Does that make us trolls? We agree there are problems, but we don't agree that anarchy is the best solution. Troll or not?
Can you provide an example of what anarchistic methods OWS is using? I would be interested in seeing it. I've certainly not seen anything anarchistic about it. If you're looking for anarchistic interests, you may be interested in reviewing the tea party. They are inclined to eliminate the federal government to nothing, and will likely proceed with their habits at a state-wide level since the corporate interests would lead them to continue their anti-regulation free-market agenda, claiming it to actually be in the interest of America.
Anyway, you were saying that OWS uses anarchy. Please explain.
The architects behind OWS are anarchic intellectuals: David Graeber, Georgia Sagri, and Sabu Kohso. A well written and detailed article was published in Business Week which describes the founding of OWS. It is worth a read:
http://anarchistnews.org/node/16624
Here are links to articles written by Graeber which are hosted on the anarchist library.
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/authors/David_Graeber.html
It is important to understand what anarchy means. A lot of people believe it equates violence and terror, but this is only a theme sometimes found in anarchies. The defining idea of an anarchy is to have a political system without an hierarchy. Anarchy comes from the Greek word anarkhos composed of 'an' which means without, and 'arkhos' which means ruler.
It thus becomes no surprise that Graeber and his friends pushed for direct democracy which is an anarchic political system; i.e. it is horizontal, without rulers. Direct democracies do not scale. They are only effective with small groups. As the group gets larger, chaos and disorder sets in.
To increase chaos even more, Occupy was designed to have independent factions in various cities across the world which barely communicate with each other. They all have their general assemblies, they all make their own decisions, and ultimately, they all go in their different directions.
It can justifiably be argued that Graeber and his friends refused to submit clear goals and demands because they wished to rally people around common complaints. It is clear that has a movement proposes clear and distinct solutions to a problem, it will lose supporters. The more detailed a platform, the less it pleases everybody. This is why politicians are very vague before elections.
That being said, now that the movement has gained prominent support, clear goals and a platform are still missing. I believe this is planned. The idea is that as the Occupy factions grow larger in size, they will each crumble under the scaling problems of direct democracy and be fractured into subgroups which will all vary depending on the cultures present in the various Occupy factions. This will increase chaos.
We can also imagine how the authorities will have difficulty managing the many subgroups in various cities. They will all be different and require different tactics. Again, chaos is increased.
It's also ironic to note that the approach of winter suits these men quite well. The protesters will be more confused in the cold than ever before. This will help increase fracturing of thought during the general assemblies. One cannot think very well when one is cold and living in a campground day after day after day. Add to that the communist style 'human microphone' which is a known technique for propaganda and brainwashing, plus the red/white colors and the fist logo, and you have yourself a nice troop of followers, socialist style.
My belief is that Graeber and his friends planned this carefully. They are intellectuals who have dreamed of anarchy all their lives. They do not leave things to chance. They are prepared. It is my opinion that Occupy is one of the most genius anarchic coups in history. It is beautiful for what it is.
In the end, I believe their dream is to dismantle the current system, not replace it. Anarchies are not stable in the long run. They are effective when used to break apart governments. That is their goal. Once the government has been dismantled, they will let some other group come in and reorganize a different system.
Of course, we also have to look at George Soros. He plays an important part as a financial supporter of the movement. His dream is for a communist state. He has said more than once that he believes the future is China, and that US should adopt this political system, or one very similar.
As for my personal position, I do not believe their plan will work. I believe it is already failing as they have not gained enough supporters before the start of fracturing which has already begun. In any case, I do not believe a revolution through anarchy is the solution to our current problems. I believe the system can be fixed by the separation of market and state. I believe in controlled capitalism, not unlike what we see in Canada. Time will tell.
One thing we can't argue on is that this forum is pure anarchy! The soup of ideas, complaints, threats, trolls, etc... is phenomenal. And, the moderators aren't doing much. Hmmm... I wonder if that has anything to do with the want to increase chaos?
This is essentially how I have come to understand Occupy.
First of all, thank you for being the first person to respond with criticism that actually has a brain and decided to use it. Most have resorted to nothing but petty squabbling, and this reply was actually well thought out and allows for actual debate. So kudos.
There appear to be two aspects to your description of anarchy. One of which is the dismantling of current structure with clever tactics, the other of which is the insane drive to leave it in shatters and adopt a ridiculous system that wouldn't work to anyone's interest. The first half of that description is something that many groups are attempting: the tea party, for example, wishes to dismantle government for entirely different reasons, and the republicans have offered the same dogma. However, I don't see wanting to remove current, unhealthy government methods (or corporate) as being a bad thing. In this way, I do not disagree with the republican party, nor the tea party, nor OWS. They are each accurate in being able to discern problems with our country and wanting to alleviate the problem.
You mentioned that the whole purpose of OWS was to gather people around a series of complaints. Again, I do not see this as different than the tea party or the republican caucus. I don't think anyone is going to argue that they have very specific complaints that they want addressed and are now so radical in those complaints that they are completely dismissing and restricting the progress of the liberals. OWS therefore is a pretty reasonable response, which is to go to a deeper problem at the source of government corruption. After all, politics is guided by those with extraordinary wealth, so why not go after the source?
May I ask, if you do not believe this nature of development to be an appropriate one, what do you see as being a responsible, intelligent way to go about it? As I see it, OWS has done a brilliant job; they are preventing the intervention of corruption by resisting the desire to pose a leader for the group. By doing so, this prevents corporations from trying to fund that leader, thus swaying the interests to their favor.
PART I
Thank you also. Well written and mature posts are always welcome. I'm not here to sell my theory or ideas, simply to exchange in proper debate and hopefully learn a thing or two in the process.
Before I go on, let me say that I am not an American, but a Canadian living in Indonesia. This means I don't have access to the daily coverage provided by CNN, FOX, or any other American network so I don't have a clear picture of how OWS is being portrayed in the media. Obviously, I do have access to the Internet, so I do get some information. I'm also not a politician, nor an economist, so I might easily be missing some important points. I'm a musician who likes to read about various topics.
Certainly, there is a serious problem of corruption in capitalist systems around the world. US is of particular importance because it is a powerhouse on the world stage and uses military force and other forceful tactics to shape the face of world politics. They are by no means the only country at fault, but whatever plays out in US will have an impact throughout the world. If I'm not mistaken, this is the foundation most of us agree on.
I'm not entirely against Occupy. There's certainly value in wanting to build a shorter bridge between the population and politics. Voting once every four years for a President, especially when the choice of viable candidates is extremely limited, certainly gives citizens a very limited power. I'm also not entirely against direct democracy in certain circumstances. I think most political systems can be viable depending on the particular situation.
I admit I have a skeptical outlook regarding Graeber's intentions. One could undoubtedly read the situation in a more positive light by believing that Graeber truly believes his system could replace capitalism and function to a high degree of efficiency.
Let me explain why I am skeptical of Occupy, and why I think it should fix itself before it tries to fix America.
My first issue with the movement is transparency. I have no problem if Occupy does not want to table clear goals and a platform at this time. That's fine. But, I believe they should be honest about where they come from and clearly explain their philosophical stance. The problem is anarchy has gained a negative reputation in the western world. It is equated with chaos and destruction. Rare are those who understand that the only prerequisite of an anarchy is a lack of hierarchy, and that violence and destruction are not a staples required of this system. Some anarchies have been rather violent, but some have not. What I'd like to see is an Occupy that is not ashamed of its roots. An Occupy that is transparent, and explains to all its supporters that it is an anarchist system modeled after the philosophies of David Graeber. This should also be made clear to the public. Knowledge is not wisdom, but it is required if one wants to gain wisdom. The more transparent they are in this regard, the more I would be willing to support them.
My second issue is with a general lack of auto-criticism that plagues Occupy. No system is perfect. Whether it be a political or economical setup, it will have advantages and disadvantages. Every philosophy has critics, and these critics are important to keep that philosophy grounded in reality. I have always admired René Descartes for inviting criticism after the first publication of his Discourse on the Method, and then publishing these criticisms and his responses in the second edition. Arguments can be shattered by criticism, but they can also gain strength if they survive the assault. People are concentrating their criticism on the problems of the current capitalist system. That is normal. However, we can't accept solutions without looking at them from different angles. Direct democracy and a resource-based economy are two examples of systems which are currently being presented to us in a perfect golden light. As good as these systems might be, I will not buy them directly from the sellers. There needs to be an educated and transparent discourse pertaining to the advantages and potential pitfalls of these systems. There are no magical solutions. If Occupy really wants to build a system in which everyone plays a part, they need to offer a powerful platform for critiques. Considering how many Occupy critiques are labelled as trolls on this forum, I am not sure this is happening at the moment.
PART II
Have they really done this yet? They have taught us direct democracy through practical examples, but I don't believe their system is any where near passing the test, and I don't believe it has solved any problems yet. A big problem is that they have implemented this system within the bounds of a capitalist system, and protesters have no jobs or land on which to really test the practically of the system in every day American living. I would like Occupy to make a call out for a small village or city to test their idea of direct democracy. Perhaps they could pick a village where people mostly do the same kind of work, and already have the same kind of pay. This would permit them to introduce the system smoothly as a first test. The mayor could have the role of a messenger who shares decisions made by general consensus with his country and state. If direct democracy is the answer, it must be put to a real test.
We can also imagine an Internet based system that would help connect citizens with politicians and their decisions. Some on these forums have pointed to online voting systems. Perhaps there could also be a type of transparency system on which the government is obliged to publish everything that is happening daily. Anyone could go on the site and read about the latest decisions being made and planned in their community, county, state, or on the national level.
For me the most important thing is to separate money and politics. This seems like a given. Politicians should not use the money of businesses and rich individuals to run their campaigns since they then feel the need to pay back their benefactors once elected. This just corrupts politics. Money for campaigns should be allocated by the government through taxes. Perhaps using the Internet in a more profound way to market campaigns could reduce costs. Surely, this is something that will happen in the decades to come.
"If direct democracy is the answer, it must be put to a real test."
I think I understand what you're trying to say now. I also didn't know that you were without American news. Allow me to shed a little insight into the situation. The direct democracy is not a philosophy that they are intending to push into government. OWS has no declared agendas, and certainly that couldn't be among them if it were (at least, I can't imagine it being one). I agree that a direct democracy wouldn't be practical at a large scale. We can barely get 50% of people to agree on something, because the moment we try to do something, corporate backing kicks in to demonize it as much as humanly possible so that nothing gets done. It is through this process that makes our system so sluggish and ineffective. Changing our system to a direct democracy won't change anything because the form of government doesn't matter right now. The issue is the corporate lobbying and corruption that dictates the law rather than what's actually in the best interests of the people.
Having said that, the direct democracy that you're hearing about is related specifically to inner-OWS workings to determine what should be done. In other words, there are a few people in gatherings at OWS rallies agreeing on things and trying to find consent amongst each other. It's not reflective of any agenda they are trying to push.
Your last paragraph that you stated far more closely resembles the intention of any true OWS protestor than anything else, really. People may have differing opinions on how to best achieve those changes, but you summed it up with those statements.
I guess you're saying Occupy is designed as a type of think tank for the people with the goal of generating a panoply of possible solutions some of which will be deemed interesting and further explored in the future.
If this is the case, and it very well might be, than I would suggest Occupy's first step has been achieved. People are aware of the problem, and they have rallied and started proposing solutions.
Perhaps it's time to close the camps and transform the protesters into the most effective idea generators they can be. General assemblies could be kept, but instead of camping in the cold, protesters could spend their time reading and writing their ideas in the comfort of clean and warm apartments. This will help them think more clearly so they can come up with the best ideas possible. They could still congregate for daily discussions in the park so as to not lose touch with each other, keep the public aware, and keep collecting donations. Perhaps they could hire scholars with the money they have raised. These intellectuals could go through the ideas being proposed and write clear articles on the most promising ones. This would show the public the power of Occupy and engage non-followers in thought provoking reading. The main criticism at this point is that protesters are like hippies and that the camps are becoming dangerous. The one in Vancouver is being closed because a young woman died of overdose and some have been raped. If camping is not needed for the generation of ideas, then we could do away with many of the problems Occupy is facing today, and still keep the main goal which you say is to generate "solution seeds".
Personally I don't understand the camping out thing. And while I understand the argument that it's becoming dangerous, I feel that's a fine line to walk. On the one hand, the constitution guarantees people's rights to protest. On the other hand, it could be argued that it's getting in the way of things. On the other hand, camping out as they have is meant to be a symbol of the movement so that people pay attention (which has worked). On the other hand, it's generated some bad feedback. On the other hand, crime and bad things happen in any area where people congregate... so on and so forth.
I can't support all of the aspects of the camping out, but I at least do feel that it's their right to make a statement to the world that will get people's attention.
As for your idea on hiring scholars, that could perhaps work, although I suspect that like most of what happens with OWS, it would get demonized. I mean, OWS hasn't even made any real description of what they're doing, and they're being demonized. The far right is trying to attack them with everything they have, despite the fact that all they're doing is pointing out corruption and trying to have it addressed.
That said, I don't really understand the reason for the camping other than as a symbol and I'm more or less indifferent to it other than that I feel they should be allowed to do it if they like. I don't think they should be demonized for it either. If crimes are happening, punish the criminals, not OWS as a whole which isn't at all reflective of that behavior.
I don't think they should be allowed to camp, and I don't think it helps the movement in any way either. People are allowed to protest, but camping in an area 24/7 is more than protesting, it's occupying a space by force. A space which is not theirs. Are there people listening to their protest at 4:00 am? Are they unable to make their point across without having to use 24 hours a day?
My point is they are wasting a lot of energy, money, and time to keep the camps alive. How can you protest and think to your full potential when you are sleeping in a campground day after day? Look at all the logistics they had to put in place to run the camps. People cycling to recharge batteries, people playing to role of security guards, a kitchen crew, a medical tent, etc... They are spending 90% of their time making sure the camp keeps running. It doesn't seem efficient in the least.
If they congregated 4 hours a day and held a general assembly in the park, they would still be seen throughout the world. They would be cleaner, have more energy, be able to interact at a higher intellectual level, etc... Most importantly, they wouldn't have to waste their time keeping the camp alive, they could spend their energy on discussions.
In this way, people would have much more respect for them. And most of the current criticism would not be relevant anymore. Do they really need to create roadblocks? How does that help? Yes, it gets attention in the media, but it's mostly negative. I don't get it.
Interestingly, I just read a comment in a forum which suggests that perhaps the camps are not as full as would seem.
I think this is getting to be a relatively useless debate now. We've shared our opinions, and you side with the idea that demonizing them for camping is acceptable. I disagree, and I've stated my reasons. If you'd like to address the purpose of the movement, we can continue.
There's a difference between agreeing that camping is illegal, and believing that demonizing the protesters for camping is acceptable. Demonizing is a very harsh word. I certainly don't think they should be demonized at all. And it depends what faction of Occupy we are talking about. Occupy Montréal has done wonderful things for the community and is supported by the city. They have helped the homeless in numerous ways. It's really beautiful. But then, Montréal has always been a very social city.
The purpose of the movement is outlined in the articles I have posted in my thread for OWS newbies. If you need more information about this, I suggest you read the interesting articles I link there. They are really worth it.
I agreed. Our system is solely based on greed. It seemed that the big corps. r in control not the Pres. or the ppl. Obama and the rest of fmr Pres. r indebted to the campaign donors after the Presidential election that the Pres. has to repay them many favors not a favor at our taxpayers' expenses (not 1 but a lot). I won't vote for Obama for 2012 neither Rick Perry not Romney or the Tea Party. All of them r a farce and he for himself. They don't care about us at the bottom except for our votes.
Why does that saying" Pay your own way" always set these fools off?
Awesome post - thanks diamondf :-)
Certainly. Thanks jeivers :)
You said: "what is health care? It's a fee that is spread between a collective pool to make sure that everyone can get treatment."
no it's not. Where did you get that nonsense?
Look, we all see OWS for what it is...it's a Leftist BIG GOVERNMENT Obama re-election campaign sprinkled with a few Ron P.aul ppl hanging on while trying not to be cast aside.
Unions (also NOT people) donated more $ than Corporations did.
Obama was the single biggest beneficiary of Wall Street money.
OWS...you people are transparent hypocrites.
btw, one of you geniuses is burning a bonfire in the middle of an Oakland street in the name of OWS.
That's gonna make for a good anti-Obama campaign ad next year, thanks!
You've posted words, yet still said nothing. Your argument of "No it's not, you're dumb" isn't an argument. You haven't even bothered to support any of your claims with common sense. I wish you could have the sense to pay attention to what I've described, but if not, good luck with your hate.
OMG, god damn imposter and troll. Don't respond to this freak.
LOL, are you really so pathetic that you have to resort to faking a name to discredit us? Ahahaha... not surprising.
Discredit, ha ha ha. Your doing just fine on your own. Nice try troll. Copy some one else.
If I'm discrediting this so well on my own, then why would you feel the desperate need to clone me? Exactly. And the argument doesn't really work when you've only been around for a few minutes and I've been around for days, stupid.
So convincing. Gee you very very smart. Get a life troll.
Chimptastica
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vYMOTdvtdQ
Blah blah blah. go shit in a bucket...and save it for compost
This is about the level of intelligence I would expect from the typical Republican these days. Sad, but true.
Huh? How do you become "legally classified as a genius?" lol
I was wondering that my own self. Other than that, good post (imho).
I get those emails all the time too. http://iqtest.com/
Just give them $500 and you can be "legally classified as a genius" too.
That's hilarious! "I'm a genius and it only cost me $500 to prove it." LMFAO.
I know. You should see how much I paid for my online college diploma. I received it in pdf format.
Though it's obviously quite subjective in a general sense, I'm basing it on the consistently applied IQ scores that are rated as genius level activity. And I realize that there are several different forms of IQ that vary between cultures, though I fall into the upper ranks of the 99th percentile in regard to the standard IQ. In other words, it was a simpler, less-egotistical way (arguably) of saying I'm in the top 0.1% of intellectual capacity for the sake of addressing people who would want some sort of indication that what I had to say was worthwhile if they couldn't find merit in the content itself.
I think Frankie and I were making a point about the "legally" aspect. I know you meant "officially" a genius. Don't take our comments too seriously. And I wholeheartedly agree that a mixture of Capitalism and Socialism is probably the best way to go. People are too hung up on labels and a general misunderstanding of how the various systems work. By the way, don't be discouraged by many of the comments you receive on this site; it's rife with trolls and naysayers (JohnnyGuy and his ilk).
You're in the top 0.1% of delusional, pretentious, bullshitters. There exists no legal classification of genius except in your sad world.