Forum Post: Why Do You Not Support The Occupy Movement?
Posted 13 years ago on Dec. 3, 2011, 11:02 a.m. EST by CompassioNateBuddha
(100)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Here's a post for all the non supporters to tell OWS, and to explain their reasons for not supporting the movement. Maybe if you give some valid reasons we can actually come together for a real discussion and find some common ground. If you are just trying to discredit the movement just for the sake of discrediting. We can't help you anyway as you have made up your mind to hate just to hate. You will have no valid reasons to discuss because you will never agree. Anyone else who has a real issue with OWS should post it here and let us just see what happens. Please feel free to post your ideas for creative solutions as well. We may all be surprised at what we could do to educate each other. Thank you all and peace be with you.
At present there isn't anything to support. It's dozens of ideas, some good, others great, and some laughably paranoid or impractical. I've been hoping they would at some point start thinking seriously about running candidates for congress. Scare politicians into action with a few primary battles. I've read about groups like the AARP or the civil rights movement having power, they have power because they vote.
If it's going to be a success it's got to mature beyond relying on demonstrations only. The successful movements followed up demonstrations with votes for candidates supporting its agenda.
You are right, we have to run people for congress. This movement is still just a few months old, and a real democratic movement always takes time to evolve. Please have patience and give your own input. It is valuable. We very much need to hear every voice - every single voice in America, and those more radical voices will have to compromise with the great majority who may want more specific goals. The bottom line is we need to get money out of government, and reform our financial system. I think propbably 70% of Americans agree with this, and we need to connect with them on their terms! Above all we need numbers behind us, we need EVERYBODY behind us to accomplish this goal!
Difficult to keep faith when I see it falling apart. Looking at the news when I sigh in, it's looking more and more that the agenda is becoming all about land occupation. Hunger strike in NY for their park back, Portland retaking a park, Washington setting up structures. There never was a strong focus on agenda to start with but we could say there was feeling against corruption in banking, corporate board rooms, and congress. Now they are focused on parks and where to pitch a tent. Very sad.
Well, I think there is a valid issue here regarding the Constitutional right to freedom of assembly, but if that is the main focus, I agree it will eventually probably prove unsuccessful. But I don't think that is going to be the whole agenda. As I say, this movement is still young, and it isn't going away.
I see it as a red herring, right to assemble doesn't extend to taking over land and living on it. That's a nonstarter in the courts and everyone knows it. Worse it deflects the message away from a struggle for economic justice and turns it into some media meme of "hippy temper tantrum in park".
I appreciate your view. My belief is that reestablishing the reality of public space, vs. the impression of public space is essential, and here's why. There's a lot of suffering going on in this country and the people in want to keep it hidden away. Taking control of public space may incur inconvience to some, but the reality underneath the corporate control of American government is desperation, and I don't think that should be hidden. I respect your opinion here, but disagree.
It is our right to peacefully assemble under the first amendment but some legal actions must take place first, like acquiring a simple permit. Fighting the wrong battles will send the wrong messages and allow the corporate infested media to turn OWS into a "hippie temper tantrum" as JPB950 stated above. For OWS to make a substantial impact, we must keep an emphasis on the real issues by assembling peacefully and legally to remain protected under the constitution. While protected under the constitution, events like the police brutality at UC Davis will continue to outrage the nation and open it's eyes to OWS and our goals.
Fair enough, I feel we're losing the opportunity that so many movements took advantage of by taking political action. Of course nothing says that while a demonstration for space is going on the GA can't organize a political committee at the same time.
That's right, this struggle is really unprecidented in human history, and therefore many means may ultimately have to be implemented for us to succeed, and I don't think it will happen overnight. Thanks, and raise high again the old tattered banner of the human spirt! It's all we have, and even now, in these seemingly hopeless times, it is still capable of greatness!
I agree that scattered ideas do not result in action. One way to get action is to start a petition that documents support. I would like a sales tax on stock trades in order to tax wallstreet instead of occupying them. If you agree, please sign or e-mail my petition to all your friends so we can see some action instead of unorganized ideas
https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/%21/petition/apply-1-sales-tax-all-stock-trades/MvZMMp0k?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl
I agree, pick an idea and work to make it happen. Right now it's like they are waiting for someone to come along and wave a wand. Real change takes more then just disrupting things. They have everyone's attention, now it's time to do something with it.
Something wrong with your link it doesn't take me anywhere.
I agree, they need to clearly outline some goals and recruit supporters to run for congress.
No clear demands that can be looked at and discussed, no leaders that can speak for the whole movement and negotiate with politicians for those demands, in short you have no idea how to protest. Look at the civil rights protest under leaders like Martin Luther King Jr.They had clear demands, they were willing to talk to policy makers for those demands, I have yet to see either from the occupy movement.
Occupiers exercise their Constitutionally guaranteed right under Article 1 of said same "...to peaceably assemble and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." GRIEVANCES, NOT DEMANDS. NO LEADER. Our Government is to address those grievances and Government is to resolve those issues, as Constitutionally required.. ~ Thunderclap
"Our" government is the problem. Its no longer ours. Let's say we write this list of demands and we find this great speaker to present it to our government and say hey, we want these things to change but its going to mean lightening your pockets and the pockets of those that fund you and probably not allow you to get your funding from the places you rely on and oh yea arrest the ones that have been lining your pockets. The government that has been going out of its way to silence and shut the whole thing down. How do you see that going for us?
Hi AJ - I see it going the way we'd like it to go; that is to say changes will come about. I don't think we ought to throw out the baby with the bathwater tho. The founders had the wisdom and foresight to create a "living Constitution" that provided for change. It's the duty of those who work in government and the responsibility of we citizens to effect change. Those in government who won't "protect, defend and uphold" the Constitution are in direct violation of the oath they swore. When Occupiers are assaulted and incarcerated by police officers those officers do so in violation of the Constitution. Those who order such actions are in violation as well. When government fails to defend the least of us and furthers the motives of the worst of us, it becomes time to take action. I couldn't agree more with you on your take of what is occuring and has occured in this country. We, #the 99% have been inactive on those many issues for far too long. The sleeping giant is asleep no more. As a fellow named Bob Dylan once wrote "The times, they are a-changin'!" Buckle up! ~ Thunderclap
Im glad we're on the same page. I misunderstood your post thinking you wanted us to rely on the government to fix the problems. But you are totally correct, the go ernment wont fix it and its time for us to rise up and take our country back.
AJ my friend, WE ARE the government. WE ARE the Democratic Republic. WE have the power. WE need to wield that power, and are beginning to do so. WE have some very greedy and very bad people among us who have trampled over most of us for their own gain. #Occupy and #the 99% are serving notice that those who do great harm in the name of their own greed will be held to account, are being held to account and WE are taking back OUR GOVERNMENT. The court of public opinion is applying and will increase the m x a applied. As that force comes fully to bear, momentum will build and change will ensue. 30,000 marched across The Brooklyn Bridge. A good start! The American Spring is coming and with it numbers of people that will dwarf anything seen so far.
If you haven't read the 99% Declaration already, please go to:
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
~ Thunderclap
This is apparently a large part of the problem to understand. This is not a political movement as such and does not represent any political party or stance. It is more an educational movement to enlighten and encourage those who have not spoken up to the individual oppressions they feel. Use these protests to bring these to light and mass understanding. No one is denying you your right to speak and voice your issues. Within civility no one is barring or threatening to remove your presence from any GA or impose a time limit in which you can express your information. No one except those that we seek to stop their oppression.
Learn, contribute and then return to your individual political association and bring change from within.
We are all educators and students in this movement.
Hi rascal 3! I enthusiastically agree with you. Re: learn and contribute - I reply to those who question the movement and what it is about, the following: Grievances and government's redress of those grievances.
According to Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary, Grievance - 1. a circumstance or condition thought to be unjust and ground for complaint or resentment. 2. complaint or resentment, or a ground for this, against a wrong, real or imagined. 3. the inflicting of injury or hardship; a cause of injury or hardship.
Redress - 1. to correct and compensate for, as evils, abuses, afflictions, etc. 2. to correct or remedy, as a fault. 3. to compensate; to make amends to. 4. adjust; as redress the balance. 5. to place upright; to erect. syn. - remedy, relief, amends, compensation, reparation
I'd ask those who come and post here with a lack of understanding as to what the movement is about to now go and read The Constitution of The United States. No "leaders", no demands. We are the grievants. We are unsatisfied and unhappy about what or country has become. Government is to redress our grievances. We will let government know if it's redress is satisfactory (or not). Many thanks for your kind attention ~ Thunderclap
The civil rights movement didn't have everything clear from the beginning...it took time to emerge and form.
Demands put the power in the hands of he who you are demanding something from. This also allows the marginalization of a vast number of voices/issues so that the media can say "those are the people who want __". Goals can be achieved without giving your power away.
I believe the demands should be of our fellow 99%...that they not engage in the systems they oppose and vote with every dollar they spend.
Other than that, it is pretty clear what the first couple demands would be if we issued them...money out of politics, end corporate personhood, decentralization of banks (especially the end of governments getting all money from a private bank that automatically generates interest/debt).
This is a great video that talks about some things to watch out for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV9A2IGShuk&feature=youtu.be
This guy said the operative word. Leaders. No leadership=anarchy which means nobody will listen. Have you looked at the mean age of these protestors?? None of them are even old enough to remember people who made change. If you look at the posts and listen to what they say, it's all the same. They get kicked out an area because the cops and the cities are tired of them messing up the parks THEY had to pay build and these kids say they are being treated like the Native Americans(not even close), then they wanna throw in the Black Movement(anyone nailed with a fire hose, attacked by police dogs, or beaten to within an inch of their life yet??) and Women's Sufferage. None of these events in history have anything to do ith why these people are where they are. I was watching the news last night after one of these vagrants(because they are breaking vagrancy laws) got kicked out of the park. The reported asked him what he was gonna do next, and he bitched and complained about how it sucks that he has to go back to his apartment and back to his normal life. Everyone is tired of the rift between the rich and the poor. It's been happening throughout history and will continue into the future. The more I read the more disillusioned these people seem. They think breaking the law and then getting pepper sprayed has some kind of effect on there position, but it doesn't the rich people they come out against don't care. Then you have rich people coming in(who make money from their apperances) to tell them that what they're doing is good. After that, then they go to concerts(where more rich people show up to get paid) and hang out. Now because it's getting cold out, they think they can run into bank foreclosed homes and live there because they are protesting. Which it's not. It's squatting. How many of these Occupants lost their jobs and houses because they want to live in a park for 3 months and not take care of anything?? Then they'll be crying about how THAT is unfair. This whole thing was improperly managed from the word Go.
Precisely. Initially, ows allied with nefarious secretive shadowy figures and u just wind up cultivating suspicions and mistrust. Such a climate isn't beneficial, and it was completely and utterly avoidable from the outset. Want to know how in hindsight or more true to form, are you even genuinely interested in the 99%,?
May I ask who were these "secretive shadowy figures"? I wasn't aware of this. Thank you. Do you have links?
i don't support ows because , no one here listens to me.
Eco Rico=Thrashy thrash= Glue con =Moles who attack our movement
that is selfish...I have read many of your posts/pics
I'm annoyed today too. Hunger strike for parks. As I've said, I'm a mother of a special needs kid, I live over twenty miles from the nearest Podunk town. I wanted to support OWS, I really did. After all I agree with a lot of the things they say they would like to do. I'll watch it. It can try out those methods it believes will bring about change. Its set its course and that's all I can do, watch.
be patient...allow time to pass, ur role will show...keep the faith...we all need to stop looking for answers and subscribe to ourselves...continue to nurture you family and place as I am sure you do and the rest will come in time...I live in the middle of nowhere in Colorado...no lie where we live is considered a frontier still, yet we are organizing among our community and pushing forward with all endeavors that promote positive ways of living and not just for us BUT positive for the earth, neighbors and us...it seems to me those who live outside of the normal city areas are actually on the ground floor of this movement, b/c if the movement builds up enough steam and build the credibility to enact change, the question will be to those of us who live appropriately, for the rest to understand how to function differently...
Hear, hear. (Pun intended.)
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They call ows hippies. It's ironic that the 1% were or claim to be the hippies from the 60s. Same as the ows, they had strong beliefs and drive to change the world. They used drugs to open up to free thinking. Now they own pharmaceutical companies and prescribe ritalin/riddlin to all the kids to control them. They post record profits controlling others with drugs. Both sides are never going to back down. We just have to out vote them. Remember time is the great equalizer. As more time goes by there will be less of them to oppose the youth of today. The youth of tommorow will not remember the fight just that we will be the 1% of tommorow. We just need to stay focused and vote.
I take riddlin and they don't control me. It helps me with school, don't be hating on ADD meds, they're helping kids, not hurting them.
My son. Is ADHD and we tried 7 different meds. Everyone was horrible. The side effects turned him into a zombie. We changed his diet. Took him off all meds. We don't give him anything with dyes or preservatives in it. Nothing processed and it must be all natural. Organic fruits and vegetables and little to no dairy. It has been a miracle. The foods we eat are laced with addictive chemicals and ingredients designed to keep us sick and fat. Pharmaceuticals are not good for anyones health.
Whatever floats your boat dude, but it's helped me tremendously. It doesn't always work for everyone and there are side effects, but the benefits for me out-way the downsides.
I was talkin about the profit they make with drugs at the expense of the 99%. Then they wage a war on drugs. If they used marijuana instead it would haves similar result except its natural and profits would be less. So they use their money to wage war on it to protect revenues. Then the revenue of the court system kicks in.
The control really kicks in when the victims of the war on drugs look for a job. With a record of illegal use they are forced to accept very low wages do to corporate drug polices. This returns lower payroll and higher profits.
As far as riddlin. 70% of all monies paid to school boards comes from the companies that manufactor it. Special interest.
Totally, OWS should try to get cannabis legalized, but I don't think it has the same benefits as other ADD medication
They gotta do more then just yell for someone else to male changes. Unions, the AARP, these guys have votes to make changes happen, they lobby and get people elected. We have to do more then whine and complain.
Thanks CompassioNateBuddha, for this thread....and for helping others in this way!
"You are the Buddha" - Buddha
"It is my choice to be kind, to those that are kind, and, it is my choice to be kind, to those that are unkind." - I ching
Thank you for your kind words. We do not understand the power of kind words and action. I think many will find when you treat others with kindness there is an immense feeling of happiness that benefits all parties involved. We do not have to resort to name calling and violent speech. We all seek happiness without suffering. Let us nurture these positive qualities in all sentient beings. Blessings.
Omnia vincit amor!
with no direction or plan of what any organization wants it will fall apart, there are so many issues that any group could want to stand and fight for... this country itself was founded for the sole purpose of freedom of religion. It used to be the basis and foundation until God was teken out of everything, schools, government, etc. since that time all morals and ideas have been for self. Business, CEO's want want want, Government wants more and more. We are telling God we do not want you around anymore. No one can scare anyone into doing anything, they will just find a loophole around it to get what they want. If any country wants good leaders, they need to vote for good God beliving leaders. What and who you vote for is who and what we get. Trying to stay out of it and staying neutral is making a choice saying that you dont care what happens to our country. If you or anyone wants to make a change, start with yourself, your family, friends. You can not change your car if you rant and rave and put in different car seat covers, sit in the seats until you die of hunger, you need to start from the begining and design a whole new car. this country needs a new start yes... but from the beginning it was the people that started it they wanted a change because they were different. the way everything is going just upsets those that are supporting their families and making a positive change in their own communities.
I have always supported the "Occupy the White House and Congress" movement. That is the source of the problem. THough it was really stupid for those in DC to have erected a wooden building. That was just plain stupid! What I really would like to say is that Henry Paulson should be arrested and thrown in jail for his crimes. He was a Golgman Sachs insider who put himself into the Treasury Dept. right after leaving Goldman Sachs. Then he took TARP money under false pretenses and gave it to failing Banks including Goldman Sachs so they could ignore losses from the Sub-Prime Mortgage scandal they created, and show profits and declare Bonuses. This is all the fault of Paulson who lied to congress to steal Tax dollars to prop up his friends banks. He committed high fraud on the American Tax payer, and distroyed the finances of millions of Americans with homes not owned by Fannie and Freddie. Obama and all of the Congressmen on both sides of the isle know this, but they are all complacent. Paulson needs to go to jail, and DC must be completely Occupied to pressure congress and the Attorney General to prosecute Henry Paulson for Fraud and insider communications. OWH now, and put Paulson in jail!!
He knew doing this would make the banks larger and more powerful at the same time. This man is a criminal and should be tried.
I think a lot of people don't support OWS because they never heard of it. A lot of people on this forum apparently think they support OWS, but since they've never been to an occupation or a GA it's hard to say exactly what "support" means to them.
Oh man, I just saw this after I already posted an embarrassingly long explanation on the public forum titled 'some recommendations from a cynic' if OWS really wants a more detailed understanding of why I and so many of the 99% have not come out to support the movement.
Eco Rico=Thrashy thrash= Glue con =Moles who attack our movement
Anti greed and anti-oppression is what young people support. We must thank god that they do not listen to the cynics and cowards who collaborate with the inhumane capitalistic system
I think this post is a valid attempt at communication, but the direct linking of hatred and non support of your movement reveals your bias, and is therefore not representative of the thinking of your "namesake" Buddha, and furthermore certainly does not apply to me at all. I simply do not support the OWS movement, because I don't identify with the blatant bias of it's members. I believe that about 99% of Americans agree with me on this issue. If you want more members, just drop all the bias, and perhaps we will join you.
This post was created only for the sake of asking the ones who don't support the movement, why. I used the word "haters" only as a slang term. I would never advocate hate among any group. I only speak of complete non violation. I advocate caring and compassion as a means for us to relate to one another. We are all human beings and we seek happiness. We also would like to live without suffering. This is our commonality. This is what connects us. This was not meant to be biased in any way and I am sorry if you feel I have done this some injustice. Thank you.
I support the movement. But right now it has stalled into a debate on anything and everything under the sun and life ain't getting no easier in the meantime.
I agree. It seems like a chat room for any topic. I know we have a lot of issues to address and it is very daunting. But we need to at least start focusing on a few major issues and stick with finding creative and sustainable solutions. There are just too many problems to address them all from the start. Thank you.
It's about getting back on messages that resonate with the public and then listening to people who offer practical solutions to effecting change. I will mention Puff6962 as one of those people. If you see any of his posts read them. He's very knowledgeable. But a warning, he has some jerk impersonating him under Puff6269, stay away from that mouse.
I have read a lot of his stuff. He seems like a smart guy. I will stay away from the impersonator. I know I'm ready to start developing a real strategy to implement creative solutions. Count me in.
Awesome, try to convince other people to do the same and then we might have a shot at implementing some real strategies. Have a lovely day.
You do the same. Thank you.
We should not waste our time occupying wallstreet. We should tax wallstreet instead and beat them at their own game. A 1% sales tax to all stock trades would eliminate high speed trading and solve the government budget issues. If you agree please sign email my petition to everybody you know.
https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/%21/petition/apply-1-sales-tax-all-stock-trades/MvZMMp0k?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl
OWS is like an ocean, expansive and limitless. It is an expression of the power of the 99%. The critiques are small perturbations on the surface, ebbing locally. Elevate yourself and support OWS.
As I understand it, if I'm part of the 99% -- because I'm certainly not part of the 1% -- then my voice as part of that 99% is every bit valid as yours or anyone else in the 99%, right? If, say, half of the 99% disagree with some aspect of the "OWS" approach, does this mean we are no longer part of the 99%? Well, that's how many of us feel. Any questions or alternative points of view on how to change things in our nation are discredited on these forums. Why?
I do not agree with this move from OWS. If it is indeed happening. This movement was supposed to be diverse and all encompassing. We must also realize that if this is going to work we must also include the 1% in the process. They are people as well. Even if some do not see them that way. I do not encourage any discredit on the part of supporters or non supporters. If you are not a member of an elite banking family or a member of the federal government or a top member of a giant corporation. You are probably facing the same issues as the rest of us. We need to be inclusive and understand on a fundamental level, we all seek happiness without suffering. This is where the basis of working together can build it's foundation.
They attempt to shut down Wall St, demand that loans be forgiven, etc., but do they consider the millions of middle-class shareholders (including the pensions of teachers and police officers OWS claims to defend) that would be affected by such action? The 1% may be irritated, sure, but they'd have their money out of there and moved somewhere else well before anything went down. Maybe there is an "action-plan" for this, that's why I bring it up.
a worthy point
Everybody supports it, even the 1%. Supporting it and actually giving something up are two different things. The mafia support Christ and go to church, but they still kill people.
I'm a supporter, but I know why most of those who are not, or in question over it, are so.
One inconsistency is real big. I think that some know it as it is, but others simply get a sense of incongruency, but then from the negative media coverage alienates them. They are not a supporter and might even be against the movement.
The incongreuncy is that the protests rely heavily on consititutional rights but never mention direct support and defense for the constitution. The reality is that we haven't had a constitutional government for 140 years. Therein is the source ofthe problem.
Couple that with the socialist phrasing, anarchy not understood (by any side) and a completely absent agenda of using laws to compel authority to meet demands that require the highest level of authority. That absence renders the protest as loud, bothersome complaining sessions because of attitude distorting unconscious perceptions of some Americans.
Most cannot break it down as I have done. But the non supporters get a taste of dysfunction because the movement, without saying so opposes anything American just because it doesn't directly associate with any of it, including due process besides permits. It mostly defines problems or symptoms which most are aware of and do not know what to do about it.
There is a process for going after government lawfully and it makes sense in America.
Normally it would lead to satisfactory notice of an injury caused by neglect or mal/non feasance to file a civil action. Since there are practically no real constitutional courts it is justification for assembly and petition at the higher levels.
According to the demands and authority needed to meet them, with regard to the history of congresss and presidents, only an article 5 convention will work to do what needs to be done.
Will Occupy talk about this realistically. I do not know. So far not yet.
If protesters were directly defending the constitution and doing so coherently under it by demanding it be followed by congress and call a convention, then law enforcement would be in a different position.
the know something is wrong and some do not like it. They cannot do anything like what protesters can do. Their social circle will not allow it under the unconscious fears that social systems have after 9-11. They want to defend the constitution but cannot! If you have a list of crimes by congress relating to 100 years of violation of oath and constitution by failing to call an article 5 convention when requirements were met, and cite that to cops at the steps of congress. They are going to know that your level of law enforcement is exceeding theirs because of their oath and your freedom.
If you are assembled, peaceful and decent, with that strategy, the Occupy act will kick butt and many, more people will support it. A list of what congress has done to evade law and prevent an article 5 convention.
Federal law regulating oath of office by government officials is divided into four parts along with an executive order which further defines the law for purposes of enforcement. 5 U.S.C. 3331, provides the text of the actual oath of office congressional members were required to take before assuming office.
5 U.S.C. 3333 required you to sign an affidavit that you took the oath of office required by 5 U.S.C. 3331 and have not nor will violate that oath during your tenure of office as defined by the third part of the law,
5 U.S.C. 7311, which explicitly makes it a federal criminal offense for anyone employed in the United States Government to “advocate the overthrow of our constitutional form of government.”,
18 U.S.C. 1918 provides penalties for violation of oath office described in 5 U.S.C. 7311 which include: removal from office, imprisonment, and a fine.
Executive Order 10450 specifies a violation of 5 U.S.C. 7311 for any person taking the oath of office to advocate “the alteration…of the form of the government of the United States by unconstitutional means"
The definition of “advocate” is further specified in Executive Order 10450 which for purposes of enforcement supplements 5 U.S.C. 7311.
According to Executive Order 10450 (and therefore 5 U.S. 7311) any act taken by government officials who have taken the oath of office prescribed by 5 U.S.C. 3331 which alters the form of government other than by amendment, is a criminal violation of the 5 U.S.C. 7311. Such alteration without amendment is criminal violation of 5 U.S.C. 7311 and 18 U.S.C. 1918.
In 1939 the supreme court violated Executive Order 10450 specifiing a violation of 5 U.S.C. 7311
http://www.foa5c.org/file.php/1/Articles/Coleman.htm
Acts relating to campaign finance are also unconstitutional and comprise “the alteration…of the form of the government of the United States by unconstitutional means"
Not a hater, but an observer...
Primarily, a lack of clarity about OWS's solutions to the economic challenges we face. There are individuals among you that have genuinely good ideas, and there are others that have genuinely bad ideas. So what does it mean to support OWS?
And also, the perception of a left leaning bias.
http://occupyentitlement.com/
Hey you! Censorhappyadmin, when can us oppressed folks enjoy free speech here? When u croak or in the afterlife?
Short answer: because you are first-worldists, racists, and fascists. Below is a more detailed answer:
As They Lay Dieing, Lastly on the Okkupy Movement
The only good that will have came from the Okkupy movement is that perhaps a couple dozen people will have went through an experience that will lead to them throwing off the shackles of liberalism. They will see for themselves that liberalism is mental illness that plagues society and is a powerful tool in the hands of the capitalist class dictatorship. They will see that liberalism is all about begging for money from suit-dummies who’ve plundered and pillaged the world for their profits, and then calling it a “victory” if they can get a few crumbs out of the deal for themselves and “their people,” Amerikans. Both the liberals and the suit-dummies, wherever separate, are vampires out to suck the blood of the poor people of the world, the difference is that the suit-dummies are the gangsters who are overseeing the extraction of the blood of the third-world people in order to maintain the “Amerikan way of life” whereas the liberal is the one in the ear of the suit-dummy begging them for more blood for them and “their people.” Both are equally enemies of humanity and stand in the way of global equality and the survival of our planet.
Of course many of the liberals, in all of their anti-science and shallow-mindedness, will not understand that the crumbs they are requesting will be extracted from the poor people of the world. They are deluded on many different levels, but in this case it’s that they honestly believe they can control the actions of the suit-dummies. They believe that the suit-dummy can’t just tell them to fuck off and take “their” money to wherever and do whatever they want with it. They think that if they get more crumbs that it will actually come out of the pocket of the suit-dummies. They are completely divorced from the reality that labor is the only thing that produces wealth and that when people in the first-world are begging for more from the suit-dummies they are actually begging for more blood from the third-world, that if they achieve “victory” it will mean more rape and plunder of the third-world. They don’t understand that “victory” for them means death for our planet. “Victory” means more consumerism, more environmental degradation, more Amerikan lifestyles that our earth can’t sustain. People in the first-world need to learn to live with less, not more, but the liberals see it in their interests to fight for people who’re overwhelmingly all in the top 20% of the world in terms of wealth (the entire US population) to have even more than they do now. They are fighting to destroy our planet.
The setup today is not much different than it was under chattel slavery in this country. Had the settlers begged for more from the enslavers, where would that wealth be coming from? Would the enslaver be off to go sell “their” stuff to gather up some funds for the beggars or would they think of their options on how to extract even more wealth from the labor of the chattel slaves and/or on how to set up more plantations? Well, today when the settlers beg for more from the suit-dummies the suit-dummies are not thinking “oh, damn I got to go sell my yacht now to get some money for these people” they are thinking “damn, let me see if I can get some more blood out of my workers or otherwise I’m going to have to move my money and jobs somewhere we’ve made the people so desperate that they won’t give me any crap if I just pay them 2 dollars a day.”
Liberals are fascists and pre-fascists. Some have no problem whatsoever with raping and plundering the third-world to sustain their unsustainable Amerikan lifestyles, those are the fascists. The pre-fascists are those who say they are against war, but when they’ve ran away all the suit-dummies with their begging and their Amerikan lifestyle is slipping away from them, they will turn fascist in order to maintain what they believe they deserve, an Amerikan lifestyle that our earth can’t sustain and that only exists because they live in the house with gangsters who continuously rob the third-world in order to produce the Amerikan way of life. They believe that they deserve 10 dollar an hour jobs when the majority of the earth’s population lives on less than 3 dollars a day. Their belief implies that Amerikans work harder and deserve such income inequality over the third-world who “just aren’t working hard enough” or whatever mental gymnastics that they do to be so deluded.
Liberals, especially those involved in the okkupy movement, are racists. Racism is rampant and tolerated by all throughout the okkupy movement. Many indigenous peoples have been vocal about how they are offended that these people would proudly consider themselves occupiers on land that they’ve been trying to tell people for centuries that it is already occupied. The okkupy movement simply has ignored the message of the indigenous peoples who have put forth a call to “decolonize the 99%” and the racist “occupy” language persists. How would the Iraqi people feel if White people started gathering in the public squares of Iraq and proudly calling themselves “occupiers?” White people have a homeland, it’s called Europe. If they want to proudly proclaim themselves occupiers let them do so in Europe, not on stolen land obtained by genocide, petitioning a government that has no right to exist.
Perhaps the most disgusting of the racism at the okkupy movement is their call on non-Whites to show solidarity to the police and military. Asking non-Whites to be in solidarity with the police and military is every bit as racist as it would be to call on Black people to show solidarity to the KKK. If you don’t understand what I’m saying here then there is a very high chance that you are suffering from the mental illness called liberalism. If you believe that it is possible or righteous for a non-White person to show solidarity to those who’ve inflicted so much misery upon your loved ones, those who’ve brutalized your loved ones, those who hold your loved ones captive in the dungeons of this so-called “land of the free”, those who drop bombs on your loved ones, those who terrorize oppressed communities the world over and here at home, those who proudly sign on to serve the interests of the capitalist system that is racist to the core…you are completely deluded, you are completely blinded by White privilege, the privilege to walk out your door without threat of being harassed, brutalized, or murdered by the police, the privilege of not having loved ones being held captive in dungeons for crimes of poverty and desperation that the capitalist system has put people in and is determined to keep them in, the privilege of not having your loved ones be the ones who’re murdered by the US military for the crime of being poor and daring to stand up against the most vicious and destructive empire the world has ever seen. Believing that a conscious non-White person can show solidarity to the armed forces under command of the capitalist class is no less delusional than believing that a victim of rape could show solidarity to the rapist. There are no good rapists, and there are no good armed forces under command of the capitalist class. You cannot possibly sign on to say “yes I will take a person to jail if they practice their culture of using cannabis and yes I will take someone to jail if they “steal” from the suit-dummies in order to eat, I will also take them to jail if they become so depressed by the way the world is under capitalism that they turn to drugs etc..” and be a good person, you’ve signed your rights to be treated as a human away at that point.
The capitalist class has decided that it is time that the okkupy movement dies down after having served their interests very well through enabling them to instill more fear into their overtly fascist base (Christian fascists, “proud to be Amerikans” and generally all who’re under influence of the rich White culture) easily readying any further movement to an overtly fascist regime if they believe that it is necessary. On another day that will see 22,000 children in the third-world die of treatable conditions, let it be noted well that the diehard liberal fascists and pre-fascists of the okkupy movement are still infuriated that the top 20% of the world doesn’t have more than they already do. Liberalism is mental illness, revolutionary science is the cure, but it only works on those who’re truly concerned with the status of ALL of humanity (not simply those in the top 20%, typical Amerikans) and the survival of our earth.
"Welcome to the cruel world, Hope you find your way.It's been cruel from the begining,It will be cruel when were done'. I feel ya.Could be worse, Living poor in China?
You are very correct. It could be far worse. But is this really the best we can do?
My response (watch the WHOLE thing).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OEjNnLpejs
Maybe if OWS would give us a inkling of the demands that they seek it would help.
I agree. This is still unclear. I understand the income inequality but what is really being done. I am not there protesting so it is even harder to get a clear picture.
To you and dances, the answers you seek are there any if you take the time to talk to someone involved. Who are we to present this list of demands to if one existed? The corrupt government we need to change? They don't care about our list. Our grievances are pretty clear and almost common knowledge to those interested enough to take the time and go down to your local occupation and have a conversation or two with those involved. What's more important is what is your list of demands and who are you sharing it with. What are your grievances and what are you willing to do about them?
My grievances are the money in politics and that's it. I thoroughly vet candidates for local, state, and federal elections. If they don't perform as they say they will, they lose my vote. May not be as much. But I guarantee it makes more of an impact than vandalizing a WholeFoods or Wells Fargo.
And no, your grievances aren't 'pretty clear.' If they are, you should easily be able to put them down in writing.
I agree. What does one do if they don't have a local occupation?
Start one. Gather with friends and family. Discuss the topics you see pertinent, and in the most crucial need of change. Encourage them to have the same sort of conversations with their friends. Bring these groups together in your area and have open discussions. That's essentially what is happening all over the country and all over the world. And Dantes, as im sure you are already aware, that is one of the biggest grievances in this movement. But simply giving your vote to the lesser corporately funded politician is simply not enough. Now i'll be honest, I don't know how to change the system, but I support the movement that is trying to make changes. There are some very intelligent people coming up withbsome new/creative ideas but we wont see change overnight. We still need the word to spread and gain support of not just thousands but of millions and millions of americans in order to start attacking the system. So I encourage you, keep doing your research, keep spreading the word, and please start groups in your local area if there are none.
Thank you. I will start pushing for more local action groups.
OWS is a spring campaign which started in late autumn. The reason why it took off was that the target was right: WallSt.
It would be better to start a think tank based anti-Wallstreet movement or a secret society.
Where are the calls to remove Obama?
Obama has absolutely nothing to do with this. When Bush signed the bill that had us pay BILLIONS a month, nobody said shit. Now that he screwed us and Obama has to clean up after this child everyone wants to blame the black guy. What pointless "war" did Obama start??
You say he hasn't started wars and you play the race card? There's nothing to see here. People like you make us not want to follow OWS.
honestly, you and I both know some people don't want him in office because of that. Some not all. I was assuming, and might be wrong of course. I don't follow them. I'm just a watcher.
Doesnt matter if he started any, he is joining in on em. If someone is gang beating some poor kid, you cant jump in and not get blame.
He's bombing 7 different countries.
Too bad you love the killing.
Killing for self defense if need be. Running into a country and killing because of one person or their ideas, religion, or whatever is just plain wrong. Plus if you just pull people in the middle of a fight, there would be a lot more collateral damage than finishing what some other idiot started. Did you not hear that almost half a million soldier were brought home?? He's working on fixing things.
you are one brainwashed sap. NATO is the US, the US is NATO.
If you think this shit has anything to do with anything BUT money and power, youre living the same lies as the Republicans of the 2000's.
Bet ya didnt know Obama is building 4 more military bases in Africa, did ya?
I hope Russia flies a drone over your parents house and wipes them out so you can see how it feels.
And I hope you mother gets raped by drug addicted freaks. US is not NATO. NATO is based in Belgium. NATO comprises 28 members: Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Do your homework. YOU are brainwashed.
No shit. And who do you think makes the decisions. Name me one NATO mission lately that didnt involve the US. Even when NATO says no, we tell them to fuck off.
That was a great opening line, by the way. You are truly a leader in the making. HAHAHHAHAHA.
Keep falling for the scams while the corporations gain control of everything in sight.
Whatever. You have your(incorrect) view and I have mine. NATO was founded by the US and GB. during the Cold War. They are like the UN. Nobody can fire a shot until it is voted on. Can votes be swayed?? Maybe, but not at the expense of another members country suffering. All of the nations named above are married. They benefit eachother. Monetarily and militarily. At least I know I can lead and not base my opinion on what some loudmouth with a microphone has to say about things they never even personally witnessed
No one can fire a shot? Tell that to the Iraq war. Tell that to Pakistan, Yemen, Somolia, Serbia and Uganda.
Its just a cover. The west falls in line with the US. Dropping a couple nukes gets you a lot of international respect, hence the Brenton Woods agreement.
Unless you can prove to me that NATO has to go through you to do anything, I'll lend an ear to your cause. Till then, you have no case. Yes. dropping nuke gains you megatons of respect (see what I did there;)) We also are are working on worldwide disarmament. Tell me what you know about those situations you mention. In detail, in under the next 4-6 minutes. Copy and paste doesn't count either. I don't even know what "the west falls in line with the US". There's an east and west to everything. Even you...
Working on a worldwide disarment- dont believe that hyped up PR crap.
The situations I mention is us bombing sovereign nations. Thats an act of war, dumbass. And NATO or the UN didnt sign on for any of it.
If you really buy the NATO nonsense, like its an alliance with equal say, and not a bunch of people that have signed on and in return get out protection, you are very naive.
You can't provide any proof?? You have no argument. I presented you with a challenge and you can't do it. You are naive, because you know nothing about what happened, therefore you referencing it without at least googling it and quickly scanning it, your argument holds no water
I need to present proof on the bombings that are going on?
Go open a history book. Many of the discussion on here are under certain assumptions. You have some basic catching up to do.
No, I'm asking you to provide me proof. If I was challenged like this, I would at least take the time to Google it and educate myself in order to educate another. I've done it far too many time on this site. I want one of you to do it to show your conviction. By now I know you are too ignorant to even bother to learn something. That's why nobody will ever take this whole thing seriously. You're uneducated and mad because you're broke(I'm broke and educated, which is worse, trust me). Everyone hates being broke, but everyone can't be rich.
Im far from broke dude. Im fine. And Im not spending time giving specific sites to go and find stuff that you be able to talk about without needing the proof.
Catch up.
Libya? Uganda?
Libya was NATO forces. A group of countries went in because things were getting hot in the country(it was/is in the middle of a civil war). Yes, one of our drones stopped the convoy so Ghadaffi could be captured. The Libyans killed him. Not us. And Obama is sending 100 people to help deal with a group (LRA) who is considered to be the most brutal rebel group ever in Africa (ever see the movie Black Hawk Down? then you would have heard of them there).
You can't even keep on topic muchless revolt. Ows: amusing.
I think many of them have a problem with us because they have been told that we are basically the democratic party's version of the Tea Party.
It doesn't help that the democrats are actively trying to co-opt us.
I find that when you explain to them that we are protesting both corporate parties, many of their objections become moot.
Nor does it help when so many OWS people seem to have a severe hatred of Republicans.This also makes you seem to be merely a branch of the Democrats even though I know you're not.Not everyone can see that.
That's a cop out statement. 'OWS people seem to have a severe hatred of Republicans'. Remind me again of the names of the Republicans who've said kind loving words about OWS. You can't seriously be suggesting this is your main beef with OWS and be taken credibly. Give us actual issues that you disagree with. Then we can have a real conversation about it. Maybe we'll both learn something.
"Remind me again of the names of the Republicans who've said kind loving words about OWS"
Buddy Roemer
http://www.buddyroemer.com/presidential-candidate-governor-buddy-roemer-occupies-wall-street
Why can't they all act like this guy? He gets it. It's corruption we need to fight, not each other. Peace.
No you're copping out and the whole statement was "Nor does it help when so many OWS people seem to have a severe hatred of Republicans." So many,not all. Not all Republicans are politicians I hate to tell you. I'm a registered Republican. I gave my reasons in my first comment none of which you addressed.
There is just too much vitriol and irrational, emotional response from both ends of the political spectrum.
I had hoped that the loft principles of the OWS movement would keep it in check but I have been disappointed in this regard.
Oh boy. Look, I did read your initial comment. And it only repeated what has been said by the Republican politicians. I ask again which OWS issues do you agree or disagree with. Or can you not talk about actual issues and only go on and on about repeating what your television says.
If I had tv i'd assume it was censored like ows is. Peace.
To stress a point <fuck shit damn>. Apparently not to censored. Oops, Ron Lawl. Damn it. It is censored :-)
A question was asked,I answered it. Why do you feel the need to denigrate me? I don't think you did read my post. You are showing exactly what I was talking about. Sorry if you didn't like my answer but it doesn't change it.
I gave my reasons in my first comment none of which you addressed.
[-] Perspective 1 points 2 days ago, Lack of focus,attitude of arrogance,welcomes violence prone people,too many conflicting demands or a lack of intelligent demands.
I read it. If you don't like that I addressed your list of reasons and found them to be a mirror image of television criticisms, then go right ahead and feel denigrated.
So in the end you could care less what someone thinks. See the OWS arrogance shines brightly. You people don't care about anyone but yourselves and your "movement". The 99% mean nothing to you.
it feels like a pointless conversation, the only vibe I'm getting from you is that you're main focus is having conversations about why people shouldn't support ows.
quit laying more groundwork that divides. enough already. post a topic giving us a list of reasons, or issues, the 99% should join together on, like getting big money out of politics, i.e., Buddy Roemer, then I'll listen to what you have to say. I just want the finger pointing to stop (I include myself) and the joining to begin. nobody's perfect, you know. if we have common ground. let's look for that and find it.
I've posted here many times that one thing I agree with OWS on is money in politics. I believe campaigns should be publicly funded with each candidate being given the same amount and that amount based on what position they are running for.All I did was answer the OP's question and you've taken me to task for it and I don't quite understand why.
I'm jaded, sorry, gets the best of me sometimes. I wholeheartedly agree with you on the public funding - until we get a level playing field, the people lose, and the special interests keep on winning. It's the number one issue I support. I've signed a couple of petitions. I'm inclined to think republicans should get behind Buddy Roemer and try to get him on the national stage so his voice can be heard. The democrats should get behind Russ Feingold for the same reasons.
Because no one knows what it is exactly you stand for. If you ask 20 OWSers that question, you usually get 20 different answers.
You are probably exagerating a little. I believe most OWSers have a pretty good understanding of what they are fighting for. Have you actually asked that question? I think if you took the time to sit down with them you might find some common ground. Thank you.
Actually I have asked that question and the answers have ranged from minimum wage to be a minimum of 80K a year to no government at all.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s76mkRRGPZA&feature=related
this all you need to know.
Simple: 1. Consider why you have felt ignored your whole life and why you need to exert control now. 2. drum circles and human mic checks. 3. Canadians. 4. Radical elements. 5. "occupy" as a strategy....ergo, mass tantrums. 6. Blanket assumptions about the "1%". 7. belief that there is a 99% supporting OWS. 8. In 2011, did some arbitrary entity invite greed into our world? (and please, do not come back with any statement involving the last 30 years). Greed is an unseemly uncle in our life. An embarrassing reality that will not go away under the best guidance or intervention. 9. Stephen Crane voiced his OWS opinion, anachronistically, in 1899.
A man said to the universe: "Sir I exists!" "However," relied the universe, "The fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."
Tantrums!
You made just made Joyce's case.
No hating. No anger. Protesting the Protesters. Occupying the Occupiers. Exercising the same rights that OWS says it is exercising.
The latest reason to look at OWS and stay what the ????? Going into a building that OWS does not own, rent, lease or pay taxes on and claiming it for 'community space.' Are. you. kidding. me??????? Then playing the victim or complaining when the authorities tell you leave. Do you honestly think that most people seeing that are going to think that is ok? If so, please tell me where you live and what you drive so I can come move in and drive away in your car. Oh wait, you call that stealing? Bingo.
Its an unoccupied building... or a waste of society. In no way is it the same as me occupying your car which you drive or your house which you live in. The buildings are being unused and the protesters are being kicked out of public spaces that they are CONSTITUTIONALLY supposed to be allowed to use for protest. This is the next best option. Hell they are probably properties that banks are sitting on instead of puttin them on te market so that they can protect property values (remember they now own a lot of property.)
Your argument and analogy are very poor. Not even close to stealing. Squatting yes, stealing no. In my opinion, because their constitutional rights were violated the squatting is justified.
Tell me something: If the banks are sitting on the properties, wouldn't that make them private property and thus off limits to OWS?
YES! so it's squatting as I said. And squatting as a form of civil disobedience is fine with me.
This is still not the same as stealing, or coming into your house or your car when you are occupying it. The banks aren't occupying the properties, they are just hoarding them while they sit and go to waste. In itself that should be a crime, especially as someamericans dont have a place to live.
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Watch TV and you will see why. All I see are lazy dirty hippy people with tents. You cant make an impact on the REAL people if that is what they see on TV.
And the TV reporting is fair and unbiased? I am sure they don't have a slant that they want to impose (sarcasm.) The media is owned by who? The same people we criticize? Do you think they are going to include anything that portrays us in a positive light? No they aren't. They will pick and choose the worst possible camera angles on the worst part of the crowd and then sensationalize it according to their agenda.
Warriorjoe, I watch news, listen to radio, read accounts, but I've also visited Zuccotti twice in the peak of its camp as well as the Boston camp. Firsthand, I can tell you I went to speak with people, learn the "reality" of the OWS movement from the supporters themselves.
At Zuccotti, I went there within the first 2 weeks of the occupation. I did not know much about the structure (i.e. GAs, mic checks) at the time -- just that "something" was happening and people were welcome to stop by and "share your ideas!" I asked a woman at the library how I could share my ideas for campaign reform. She said, "You can talk to me." So I did. And so what?! She should have invited me to the GA, or directed me to the website, or she could have done a mic check to gather people interested in this topic for discussion. My ideas went into the ethers.
In any case, I walked around the camp, heard a mic check, was impressed by the library and the organized kitchen and media establishments, and got a copy of the OWSJ. Then I came home and hopped onto this forum/ website. I offered ideas for action -- since everyone kept saying "we're still developing our action plan!" Well, here are MY thoughts! Let's engage! :)
A month later, I returned to Zuccotti after the snowstorm. One of the first things saw was a guy sitting on bales of wet bags looking for people to "do our laundry." I saw hundreds of people in the park -- couldn't half the people there take a few hours, grab some cabs, schlep like many NYers to the laundromats throughout the city and just do their own laundry? :) It didn't bother me that much (maybe supporters would be happy to help with this cause) but I could see how the sign "Do our laundry" could be lambasted as another sign of those "lazy OWS hippies." Image, image…
Then I went to Boston and stopped by the camp there. I visited the info booth where four people were standing, and spoke with a woman about Boston's camp, how it was going. I was in mid-sentence about something (I don't recall what, but something general) and she walked away. Just walked off while I was speaking. Huh? Isn't the point of info booth to receive visitors and offer information? I was flummoxed. Maybe she could sense that I'm a tough critic. ;-)
So that's my firsthand experience, Warrior. No media, just my own senses. :)
alright fair enough. i definitely cant argue with your experience.
My God man,,, just look at the home page for this OWS site. Most of the time it is about a group of 200 people "taking over" an empty building. FOX didnt write the story on the home page,,,, you guys do. The lead stories on this site are; tents.
I am sorry that you feel this way but I assure you this movement is not made up entirely of "lazy dirty hippy people". And if you are seeing it on tv please let me know what you are watching because I see little or no coverage from the mainstream. This movement is made up of creative and intelligent people as well. If you look deeper I am sure you will find a more eclectic group than you think. Thank you.
I'm sitting very comfortable in my home with my family. My wife is watching a scary movie and I'm sitting here reading, typing eating some orange sherbet. When I do watch or read about the movement, as well as the home page for this site, it is really only about some smelly hippies taking over a park or tonight, some old factory with police surrounding the place. WOW,,,, hot news, hippies with tents take over and empty building. That is the OWS image and the very front page of this site illustrates it, big time. Dirty lazy hippies. Sorry but that is not an example of something that could take over the world.
You may be very surprised at what the face of change looks like. Blessings to you and your healthy family.
America has gone through a civil war, two world wars, several economic collapes, missle crisis, corruptions, gas embargo's, three presidential assasinations, cold war, 9/11, natural disasters, etc and etc. (WE) have seen many faces of change in my life.
Then you will not be surprised at all. Thank you.
Once we get a republican back in the White House everything will get better.
Oh man. I read this whole thing, just facepalming at how brainwashed this guy is. Then the republican part at the end is just the cherry on top. Hey dude, did you know there's a world full of suffering outside of your daily comfortable life? You've been very fortunate and probably even hardworking in your life, and you deserve everything you own. But I'm here to tell you that there are WAY too many people in the country who are just as hard working and intelligent as you if not more so. But they are victims of this system that the elite profit off of. You gotta turn off the TV and REALLY investigate what's going on. Just look at all the evidence all over the internet. Why do you think they just started REALLY trying to censor the internet? It's so obvious now that it blows my mind people still can't see through this bullshit.
I like this. Too many of the people who only know of OWS from what they see on TV are being blinded with fraudulent claims. The MSM, you must remember, has an agenda. That agenda is based solely on the agenda of the entity which owns that particular media outlet. Follow the money. The MSM has been consolidated from over 50 companies, down to 6 in the last 25 years. This is very dangerous to have such a monopoly on how we get our information. Thank goodness we still have the internet. For now.
Too many are not paying attention to the despicable legislation that is still being pushed through to annihilate our rights. I hope enough people catch on before it's too late and the country is sold out from underneath them. Unless you are safely secure in the .001% (as well as your children and grandchildren), you should be very concerned.
There has been some form of pain and suffering since the caveman. There have been harding working people since the caveman. Blaming "The MAN" is a pretty poor way of making a point. Now, for over 50 years there has been a liberal democrat agenda. Fot 50 years, every single year, the claim is the poor keep getting poorer. And yet, the rich keep getting richer. If you were on a sport team that always lost,,,well, you need to get out of the game. Rich liberals, VERY RICH LIBERALS, in congress keep getting voted back in by the poor liberal that thinks the rich liberal cares about them. Guess what, the rich liberal only needs the poor liberal when it is election time. the poor are suckered into thinking that the only way to survive is by Mother Government giving them something. If it worked, why are more people joining the poor ranks? The only happy democrats are the rich ones. I'm not a rich person, I do vote for policies that allow for success rather than voting for a deeper gutter and it has worked for me. YOU, got what YOU voted for.
You have great optimism in the republicans. Good luck to you. I hope you are correct and they make this a better world to live in.
Nicely put. Thank you.
No unified goal or objective and a lack of understanding of liberty also Censorship by OccupyWallSt.org.
Lack of focus,attitude of arrogance,welcomes violence prone people,too many conflicting demands or a lack of intelligent demands.
Can you please give examples of "lack of intelligent demands." What are the demands that are unintelligent? So we can discuss this. I am very interested in this. Thank you for your comment.
When someone makes the demand that minimum wage should be $100k plus that is not an intelligent demand. When someone says everyone should be paid the same no matter what job they have,that's not an intelligent demand. There are more but those two spring to mind quickly.
I have read the link explaining the minimum wage demand. Can you please explain why you are against a more equal pay rate for workers? I am just curious why you feel this is bad. I am not saying I agree with this. I am just curious why someone might feel this is bad. Thank you.
The price system is one of the things in the market that works the way it is supposed to. Muck with it only if you understand what you're doing.
Value and cost are not the only things that go into a price. When a price of something goes up, it serves a dual purpose: 1) it signals information to both buyers and sellers on what is scarce and what is plentiful 2) it provides incentives to both of them to allocate resources towards scarcity.
If the price of a resource skyrockets because of a shortage, the reduction in supply skyrockets the price. This causes buyers to conserve and motivates more sellers into that market. Implementing price controls in the form of ceilings (like some usury laws do) or floors (like the minimum wage), tend to result in allocation problems like shortages and surpluses.
What is the price of labor? The wage. What is a surplus in the labor market? Unemployment. Now, I know Card and Krueger and others have studies that show that the minimum wage's effect on unemployment is somewhat less than theory predicts, so the labor market is a bit more complicated, but the effect is still there. In an economic system where transactions are voluntary, you cannot force buyers to pay more for something than they think it is worth, and that goes for firms paying for labor. When the price goes up, they buy less of it.
If you want to help poor people, a much better vehicle for that is the Earned Income Tax Credit.
Thank you for your information. We need a more sustainable system. Our resources here are finite. We better wake up soon to this fact. We need to stop allowing products to be made that are inferior from the moment they are produced. We used to have TV repair men. Now if it breaks, we throw it away and get a new one. This will not work forever. This is cyclic consumption. Very very dangerous to our survival.
To change behavior, you can also take advantage of the price system with policies such as Pigouvian taxes. I think it's the best policy to deal with the market failure known as negative externalities, where there is a cost not borne by either the buyer or seller, and pollution is the most obvious example. To get people to drive less, implement a gas or carbon tax, and you will give them an incentive to do so. To get people (and firms) to generate less waste, tax them on the amount they are throwing away.
Note, this works better than regulation, because regulation gives individuals and firms zero incentive to lower pollution or waste beneath the regulated limit.
This is a great concept. Taxing instead of regulating. But we must be careful to not allow loopholes. These can cause serious problems.
Because if you think unemployment is bad now, just try a 100k minimum wage. It's laughable.
This doesn't make sense to me because from what I read. It will be offset from the huge salaries paid to CEOs that do next to nothing. Am I wrong here? Thank you.
Yes, you are wrong. The small business owner is not pulling in the huge salaries like the big time CEO's. Let's say you own a small diner. You pay $5 an hour plus tips. New law comes in and you now need to pay 800% more. Are you staying in business? Of course not. Now you and all your employees are unemployed. But wait, the government will confiscate the top 1%'s money to pay for the 30% unemployment. Oh, what will happen now? Perhaps the tens of thousands that this man helps employ will now be unemployed. Rinse and repeat until unemployment causes a revolution.
We are certainly headed down a path to revolution. That is clear. Profits over life is dangerous and will never work forever. It is like a cancer that will eat itself.
That (revolution) isn't going to work out too well for OWS. A movement that chooses to have no leaders are a mob. A mob will be put down quickly. And the way OWS is going now, the majority of the populace are NOT with OWS.
I have to agree with Perspective that the 110K minimum wage demand is wishful thinking at best and speaks to a almost incredible lack of understanding of economic realities.
Particularly the idea that any and all businesses are cash cows based on worker exploitation.
the problem isn't simply who is getting paid more...it's much deeper than that. here is a good video that explains some things to watch out for and to be smart about the movement as it grows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV9A2IGShuk&feature=youtu.be
I am a small business owner and OWS supporter. I have to agree with perspective on that demand, however, a 110,000 minimum wage is simply not supportable. I employ a handful of highly skilled knowledge workers who are paid 50-70 K per year. As I stands my partner and I have taken short paychecks and no paychecks to make payroll many times in the past year. If there was a 110K minimum we'd have to close our doors or try to do all the work ourselves. One way or another all our employees would lose their jobs. We've considered doing exactly that, but our employees have been loyal to us, some of them as long as 20 years, have stuck with us through these lean times, and we feel we owe them our best effort.
Many small business owners struggle as we do. Not every business is headed by an overpaid, fat cat CEO
Do you have links to these demands. I would like to read about these. Thank you.
There are no official demands. A protest is a protest. A movement must be leading somewhere.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/solution-raise-the-minimum-wage-to-110000-per-year/
I'll let Perspective say their part, but here's my two cents in addition to what they've already said: The list of demands is riddled with irresponsible generalizations that likely comes from spotty research. As an example, take the one about China: "Implementing of immediate legislation to encourage China and our other trading partners to end currency manipulation and reduce the trade deficit."
All countries except for a handful have central banks that engage in currency manipulation to facilitate and stabilize trade, yes including the U.S. Manipulating currency is one way to dampen inflation too. Calling for an end of currency manipulation is akin to telling the Chinese central bank to stop doing their work. The U.S. has no right nor the ability to do that. Moreover, the trade deficit is also because many of us have opted to buy cheaper products that were made elsewhere, including in China, and limiting that option may cause some of us to be unable to afford the same quality of life because we can't afford to buy those products unless the price is made low due to lower labor costs etc overseas.
It takes a very simplistic way of thinking to make such a demand, which is true for many of the other demands. A few I think are less driven by emotions and more by cogent research include the reinstatement of Glass-Steagall.
Debt forgiveness isn't as easy as signing a piece of paper. Someone will have to pay for the debt to be written off because someone else simply can't or refuse to pay. Now that's unfair no matter how you look at it.
The rich bankers already have more wealth than they could ever spend. Would wiping out debt really hurt these people? Can you explain? Debt forgiveness doesn't really seem like it would cause the bankers much pain in the pocket. Just bouncing questions here. Thank you.
Person A has $1000, Person B has $1 and no income, no job, no assets.
Person B goes to person A and says, "Hey, can I borrow $20 off of you? I have an income, a job and assets for collateral." Person A says "Okay."
Person B goes to spend borrowed $20 and then figured out that hey, he can't pay it back, so he goes to Person A and says, "Look, man, can we just forget it ever happened?"
Fair's fair?
If person A is a friend or loved one who has a heart filled with caring and compassion for others, he won't even think of asking for it back because it was never a loan to begin with. I have done this many times for family and they do not take advantage of it. It benefits all involved.
So why didn't all the Person Bs down at Wall St. get loans from their families and friends instead of the banks?
Good question. I would say because their family is already a debt slave to fractional banking.
family and friends are in the same position, becaus ethe problem is intentionally propogated and systemic.
put another way... I am 25 and I want to own a house. When I try to buy one for 150k I need a loan. Are you suggesting that I go to my family and friends and borrow the 150k? All the while my parents are 20 years into their 30 year loan and actually took out a 2nd mortgage so that they could send me to college so that I could possibly get the loan for the 150k in the first place. And as for my friends if they didn't go to college then they can just forget about getting a job that gives them enough pay to get a loan for an average house. Maybe if they sell drugs they can buy a house outright. if not then they rent or maybe buy a trailer. And the friends from college and their parents are in the same boat as me. It's like a game of monopoly where the banker gets to change the rules. But I suppose we could all live in tents and then we wouldn't have to go to wall street in order to own a house. (sarcasm)
The arrogance you speak of. I was of the impression that the movement welcomed all people. Is this wrong?
The whole movement was built on " false pretense."
Originally announced was a grievance towards the inequalities and unfairness of wealth distribution, but as time went on a hidden agenda began to emerge .. ows tries to deny any demands or leadership .. but they have a set goal in mind .. something focused on corporate lobbying. period.
Which has turned me off to offer anymore support.
The whole thing was insincere from the begining .. and because of this they have ruined their own movement.
It could have been history in the making , but instead it was just deception all over again.