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Forum Post: While Your At It, Please Tack this On To Your Demands

Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 6, 2011, 8:38 a.m. EST by meanmckean (51)
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I have no argument with anything you've wrote. I admit to not being an expert on so called Obamacare or any of the public health care debate. I didn't really follow it except from an occassional soundbite. Just an illustration that I'm not agin socialized insurance. What I thought about yesterday in challenging my current beliefs about "the system" is how sad, and a bit misguided, and self absorbed the whole debate is. It kind of speaks to this occupy movement and the underlying motives. Up front, let me say again, I'm not out to demean anyone or cast judgement. I'm challenging the whole system. This movement is about the haves vs. the have nots, contrary to what postings say. If those promoting it, involved in it, had sufficiently more of the "have" they would not be on the street. What do they want by and large? Oh, let's oversimplify for the sake of argument, a job, opportunity for advancement, a reason to feel good about themselves. Those things based on my experience go a long way to keeping people content. Let's call that Jefferson's pursuit of happiness. So, fast forward, they get what they want somehow, the economy turns, all is once again right with the world, folks are working, commerce is churning away. Back to occupy a house with a white picket fence rather than wall street. As you were comrade. Back to status quo, typical political bickering and problem solving... In that rosy picture, pre 2007, sure, we know there were problems. We seek to solve some, healthcare, whatever. What's wrong with that picture to me? This desire that as a nation, we want to guarantee our folks a right to healthcare. For Christ's sake, sorry for my color, we're talking about doctor's visits, and we can't even yet guarantee every citizen, let alone every other human being on this planet a right to the most basic necessity of life - food. How arrogant and egotistical and selfish that seems to make us as a nation to me. Haves vs. Have Nots. So, I just pondered some. What would that mean, if we as a species decided to take up that cause? I think such a cause would potentially rock the foundations of every institution we pat ourselves for inheriting from the founding fathers. I mean those men had definite genius, but they didn't dare consider putting that in the constitution. We should stop looking at "the poor" as just a convenient phrase and dismissing them as "something that will always be with us", something seems Dave Matthews touched on in his song "Help Myself": "A treasure not my own I take it, took it, nobody will notice Well that suits me well Big house, big yard, help myself, help myself Every once in a while To help the helpless comes into style" As for me, it kind of makes me feel a little sick about myself about things I've stood for. To make matters worse, I have no answers. I can't even really formulate all the questions. But, I am going to think about it, I hope often. Seems to me we as a species really don't want to solve that problem, because we like unfairness, we like to have more than someone else and the chance to be better than the next guy. We don't all really want to be equal for we love inequality as long as we ain't living in the worst of it.

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12 Comments


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[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 13 years ago

The founders gave a lot of very careful thought what a right is -- what can be a right and what cannot.

Here are some challenging issues for you to contemplate:

http://marsexxx.com/ycnex/Ayn_Rand-The_Virtue_of_Selfishness.pdf

Read them through and consider them honestly and carefully.

[-] 2 points by meanmckean (51) 13 years ago

Thanks for that. Just wondering can I put you in the camp of "free" health care for all Americans can be a right, but not all humans can have the guaranteed right to US RDA 100% each and everyday?

Just noticing the title "Ann Rand" my immediate reaction is "Oh No", Alan Greenspan is a big Ann Rand disciple as I recall...can't imagine the Occupy movement as a whole are big fans of Dr Greenspan.

But, I thank you for this, and will add it to my learning. I know there are really smart people who have contemplated this, and I'm not a really smart person. But, I think my thesis above is sound.

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 13 years ago

I don't join camps, but I will say that it is impossible for anyone to have a right to the products of another person's effort. Because if that person doesn't have a right to the use and disposal of whatever they create, then that person doesn't have any rights at all. That's the theory.

When you try it in practice, what happens is the innovators stop innovating, and you end up with surly clerks deciding what services will grudgingly be doled out to you. If you have a need, the surly clerk bureaucrat becomes your master. For proof of this, read the books of people who escaped soviet Russia.The dominant social feature became a stultifying bureaucracy crushing all hope.

Rand was a philosopher who put up a moral defense of capitalism without resorting to any argument from authority. Greenspan became the head of the biggest criminal anticapitalist organization in the history of mankind. Don't define one from the other.

I hope you enjoy the articles in that book. They are quite challenging.

[-] 1 points by meanmckean (51) 13 years ago

Just an observation about your "rights" to the products of another person's effort. If we take that as a basic premise, seems just to consider that perhaps the products of the efforts of one should have some statute of limitations on it. I know that probably sounds leftist and radical, but does beg to question say why the, let's say Dupont family for argument's sake, should continue to garner a right to great wealths and powers based on generations which have long since passed. Like any person, I want to be able to prepare a way for my children, even pass on some fruits of my labor to them when I'm gone, but there seems to be great unreasonableness and injustice if this is allowed to occur without any real parameters.

[-] 1 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 13 years ago

Excellent

[-] 1 points by meanmckean (51) 13 years ago

Thank you again Hank. I won't put you in a camp, I'll just call you friend then.

I've decided in the past week or so to remove myself from all camps as well. Isn't hard to do since I haven't voted in a long time due to overall disgust with the system top to bottom. I'll be flamed in the typical way people will flame just for saying it, but I don't care.

Liberal, conservative, rich, poor, label this label that. The system isn't working well enough. What I've learned along the way doesn't work. It is barely working for me, and it surely isn't working for those camped out on the street.

My long held personally contrived theory about socialism or communism is they won't work based on my coffee pot experience from my first job. The coffee was free. All somebody had to do was make it. However, some folks were seemingly genetically predisposed to not ever being able to stoop to making the coffee. Funny observation really. Not sure it proves much.

I'm not going to say this problem cannot be solved. We live in a new world. Technology is amazing. We currently vote with fiat money. Maybe that has to change. Maybe we vote with a +1 going forward. Everyone starts with basic rights to basic necessities. Noone can be overly rich. Noone can hoard monies they've inherited from the Ford Trust Foundation Fund, I know that doesn't exist, just for arguments sake. No man can be more powerful than the poorest among us. Something utopian like that. We should find ways to work towards it.

Federal Reserve notes are notes of debt. Right? What does debt do in the end except create a nation of financial slaves? We say we abolished slavery based on color...but seems we have just reinforced it and really just expanded the base since.

[-] 1 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 13 years ago

Like

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 13 years ago

Not much time, but I must reply;

Your coffee pot experience reveals a fundamental truth.

And yes, if we don't eliminate fiat currency then our society is doomed.

[-] 0 points by agnosticnixie (17) from Laval, QC 13 years ago

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The essays in that book - her grasp of history is a joke - the first steamboat came out of Czarist russia, the ideals of the american revolution came out of european enlightenment. Atlas Shrugs and The Fountainhead are a massive argument of authority.

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 13 years ago

Such a devastating refutation. Thanks for enlightening me.

[-] 1 points by Cafree (80) 13 years ago

Ayn Rand no thank you. She was a total hypocrite and I would not want to live in the world she envisioned.

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 13 years ago

Well what she warned of is coming true. Hope you enjoy it.