Forum Post: Whats next?DId this REALLY happen?
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 26, 2011, 7:55 a.m. EST by MitchK
(305)
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Am I seeing what I think I am seeing in the news? OWS demonstrators take stand against fur products? WOW like I have been saying 99% of those "voicers","movers" protesting for the 99% do not even know why they are protesting(by the way the #1 reason egtrra/jgtrra) .They are there JUST to PROTEST and JUST to be PART OF SOMETHING,ANYTHING other than their own dreary lives,must have grown up and not been to socially involved/excepeted as a kid/teen.. Lets protest fur now,,,,and wait did anyone even listen to what they want...NOT to stop getting fur,killing for the fur,but the way it is done it is inhumane(quotes below),granted I do agree with them but this is not what OWS is about...so do we protest next or now ...... well fill in the blank it seems like these mindless followers the ones speaking for the 99% will protest anything to be part of something even if the main issues is not the agenda any longer.
"We're objecting to the slaughter of millions of animals, the horrible, painful slaughter without anesthetics. Many of these animals are skinned alive, all to create a disgusting luxury item, which is unnecessary because none of us are wearing fur coats and we're quite warm,” said Roberto Bonelli of Caring Activists Against Fur.
“A lot of people don't think that the animals are put to sleep, and then they kill them, but it's all done while they're still alive," said protester Jennifer Gratereaux.
Hello, I am one of the co-organizers of CAAF and the first person quoted. This post disappoints me. There was no deliberate confusion intended on the part of CAAF. FFF has been an annual event for 26 years. This year had a specific theme Corporate Greed Kills Animals. Our hope was that many new activists would join us in our common struggle against corporate greed.
The idea to promote our event to the OWS movement began when several of us animal rights activists ran into each other at Zuccotti Park (before it was cleared by police). Many of us were individually participating in various OWS demonstrations (maybe I shouldn’t say that, I attended the Occupy Sotheby’s Union protest on 11/09 due to a flyer I was given at Zuccotti and I went without verifying whether or not it was an officially endorsed OWS event, sorry Mitch). Zuccotti Park was functioning as a public meeting place where many groups could go and spread awareness of their demos. Some of my environmentalist colleagues were already doing that. So that’s exactly what we did. I was down there with a group twice to specifically promote FFF. On the second occasion, Thanksgiving Day, I was approached by a reporter from WCBS radio who had been handed one of our FFF flyers. In my interview, I told her what our demo was and that we were there INVITING all activists within the OWS movement to join us for this occasion. FFF is not run by a central organization. Each city’s event is independent and runs its own demo its own way. Cooperation among activists and cross-posting of the event is encouraged. If the message mutated along the way this year, I can not say nor do I have any control over that. All the organizers in CAAF clearly stated in our press releases the name of the event, the theme of the event and that we welcomed participation by anyone who would join us. As far as the NY1 coverage, the first line is “Occupy Wall Street protesters joined animal rights activists Friday to protest the use and sale of fur.” How is that incorrect??? Several people I met at both Zuccotti Park and various OWS demos attended. Do they meet your definition as to what an OWS protestor is? For that matter, do I count as one or does the fact that I’m an ARA negate that for you? I find your interpretation of my quote as an animal welfarist stance extremely offensive. Jessica and I were interviewed because NY1 was looking for bilingual activists. Neither of us are professional wordsmiths and we did the best we could in spontaneous interviews. She and I are completely against the use of animals for fur. Period. You keep harping on that this was about seeking humane fur. “and wait did anyone even listen to what they want...NOT to stop getting fur,killing for the fur,but the way it is done it is inhumane” (wow, that run on sentenence makes you sound like I talk. What else do we have in common? Is English your second language like me?) I meant to say we object to the slaughter. Skinning them alive without anesthetics was meant to elaborate on the way they’re killed not to advocate for another way of killing animals. Perhaps you’ll understand my Spanish interview for NY1better. If I am completely incomprehendable to you in any language, then rest assured that anyone, anywhere can tell you Fur Free Friday is about the complete abolition of fur. “Fur Free” kind of implies that.
If your objection is due to NY1’s title: OWS Demonstrators Take A Stand Against Fur Products, all I can say is we have no power over NY1. You might want to ask them to be more accurate in their reporting rather than alienating fellow activists.
This was not an attack on you. There is a concerted effort to discredit this movement and all associated. In fact, there is money changing hands to such ends. Please do not allow yourself to be dragged into any of this. The potential for spillover onto other movements is very real.
http://www.citicommons.com/contributors/richard-gates/americanbankerassociation
I do not think you did intend to advocate for other ways of killing.I will not get into a debate over this with you fur-bad or good...that is not what I am on this site for this site,this "protest","movement" I am on is for stopping and changing, egtrra/jgtrra( people need to figure that out) OWS "protesters should have picked up with you YES and they should have PICKED UP SIGNS from CAAF and protested under your banners,not OWS banner. Thats all I am saying. This is where issues get confused and people tha start ignoring and not taking it serious anynmore. Now personally A dog walking against a light and a human the other way and I am driving and had to hit one of them I am running over the human that knows better not that poor animal...lol..I love,care and do not believe in harming animals. I do do not like to see those commercials about seals being clubbed,whales being harpooned,etc..unfortunately thats is the corporations feeding into the greed,pride and DESIRES of a human being,all thge corporations are doing is giving what the people want and doing what they do what any business does whatch their bottom line. Morally wrong yes!!!!
To my knowledge, this event was not endorsed by OWS Direct Action Working Group, though it was supported and attended by members of OWS' embryonic animal issues working group -- the group that has been organizing vet care for animals in Zuccotti Park. Fur Free Friday was organized by Caring Activists Against Fur and attended by people from a variety of animal rights groups. PETA wasn't the organizer. Some OWS participants (including people from the above mentioned OWS animal group) attended. The media is very interested in OWS so they focused on this fact. As for fur being relevant to OWS - fur garments are primarily marketed to very wealthy people (aka the 1%) andsold and marketed by large corporations like Federated Department Stores. Their production causes the death of tens of millions of animals and damages the environment.
http://furcruelty.com
http://www.gan.ca/campaigns/fur+trade/factsheets/fur+%3A+a+waste+of+energy.en.html
http://www.gan.ca/campaigns/fur+trade/factsheets/fur+farms+and+the+environment.en.html
http://www.gan.ca/campaigns/fur+trade/factsheets/trapping+and+the+environment.en.html
You are kidding right...OWSers that provide animal care in Zuccotti park I would love to see where this OWS movement to change a certain govt policy was started with the thought of also protesting against fur. NOTHING TO DO WITH OWS's statment SOME people DOWN THERE who feel THEY are the voice of the 99% took it upon THEMSELVES to protest with the Caring Activist Against Fur...I am sorry for saying PETA also that I knew was wrong but it was easy, and the activist where protesting not the fur the inhumane way they are slaughtered for the fur....Now again I AGREE with it,but,I am here and was supporting an idea OWS had at one point when it was about something not whatever people want,when people PROTESTED not disrupted,acted illegally,threatened,harrased people. And that is the point why would ANY politician or american take a movment serious that no longer can focus on an agenda. The best way to stop a movment I see from this , is let it grow to get out of control and than the original issue is no longer a factor,let them get out of hand(like they are) and let them destroy themselves,come in clean up the mess, it worked perfectly.
"must have grown up and not been to socially involved/excepeted as a kid/teen"
quite the opposite. it seems the ows kids are the ones who grew up playing sports where they did not keep score, where 1+1=3 if you really want it to, and where feelings and self esteem were the single most important things ever, far more important than right or wrong or good or bad.
when you are hardly ever told you are wrong, this is what you become when you enter the real world where they DO keep score, where you get told if you are wrong, and where very few people give too much of a shit about a coddled 20-something's delicate feelings.
then what's the response from these helpless whiners?
gimme gimme gimme!
it's pathetic.
This protest is consistent with the concerns expressed in the first Declaration of the General Assembly:
"They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices."
http://takethesquare.net/2011/10/05/declaration-of-the-occupation-of-new-york-city-ows-occupywallstreet/
lol, Looks like Peta is using this Protest to their advantage. ROFL, OWS is getting used now.
just...so right and its ashame. The point of OWS is lets see,,,save the fur,wait no do not make students pay back loans they took...no wait its the federal govt ony gave 99 weeks of unemployment extensions..no wait its stop caplitolism...no wait its there are no jobs...no wait its...wow I forgot ,oh yeah OWS STANDS FOR save furry animals(which I happen to agree with just not on this OWS platform),wait I am confused again what is OWS for?????....lol
Animal testing should be protested to. No animal should suffer because of the ghouls in the Big Pharma and FDA who use and abuse them to make toxic drugs for us. It makes me angry to that no one at OWS is protesting the high cost of food, which started in 1987. I have heard this legal theiving goes back to the Banks, the Banksters. All these losers do is keep us poorer by making it harder to get daily necessitates. I really hope all this can be fixed. We are living in a world run by monsters to both animals and human beings who have no maturity what so ever. Also, can someone please tell me what is going on in NYC? No one can sleep in Zuccoti Park anymore right? So where is everyone sleeping or are the protests only going to be daily there now? Thanks in advance to whoever answers my question.
Yea, lets test on humans? errr
just noticing this eh?
Noticing what Pepper?
That MOST on here and out there know not really what they are fighting for?
That there is no longer a mission statement?
That mostly those fighting are those doing so just to be part of something,anything.
No I noticed it pretty much from day 10-15 around there just trying to get ther to realize it.
PETA was not at this protest and did not organize it. Why does everyone always give PETA credit for stuff that grassroots groups do?
Change in addition to this thread you just added...do not get mad that people think it was PETA,that sounds more like your ego and pride talking rather than your concern and care for animals. You are on the same "mission"
When did ANYONE say they wanted humane fur? Both of those statements show how fur is unethical and is completely ridiculous. I am a member of the group who was hosting the demo. We NEVER EVER asked for humane fur. You cannot humanely steal someone's skin. You are a heartless person for criticizing our demo. If you had any compassion at all, you would've been at the demo AGAINST fur. This is a serious issue. We are out there fighting for all animals who are brutally abused. They get the fur/kill the animals by skinning them alive, anal/vaginal electrocution, trapping, gassing, stomping on them, drowning them, and much more horrific things. All of this is done without anisthetics!
The animal activists asked OWS for support at this demo. We thought that people who care about corporate greed would understand that it translates to animal rights. Fur coats cost thousands of dollars. Only rich/cruel people (the 1%) can afford fur. Understand?
You are just complaining for the sake of complaining, the very thing you are claiming that we're doing. We are hardworking activists who are out there every single week fighting for animals abused for clothes, food, entertainment, and vivisection. Instead of complaining, why don't you join us and fight for something!
You must not read ALL information change...lets just get to the point here I NEVER said I DO NOT AGREE with your cause...I simply said OWS platform is NOT the platform for yours...wether I agree with it or not. CAAF, I think is you group if I recall and I think you SHOULD voice your opinions and protest but not by piggybacking off of OWS statement mission and agenda. Yes OWS supporters should, if in their heart agree with you go, and protest with you UNDER CAAF banner though not under OWS's. Messages get lost when you mix in others that have no part in it thast all. Not your message perse. I will even apologize if I made it sound like I want if or feel its ok animals skinned alive and such.
Just to be there and be apart is good enough...this movement is built by the 99% not you
Oh really...well lets see I been there and I seen,talked and l listened to some of these "voicers","movers" of the movement for the "99" (FYI you woud be SICk if you heard what I did)...so you have only .05% of people of the 99% they "represent" and 89% of them do not really know what they are saying or why..and you think that is ok for the 99% they actually say they represent? You honey are part of that 99% you like having people "speak" on your behalf with not knowing what theyare saying? Guess what I am the 99% and i am embarrased to say they are representing me. I would and DO not want someone speaking for me if they do not know the facts and whole story, especially when it does not only affect them but me and the 100% as a whole,,thats alot to speak for you should be informed,studied and done so with an openmind,one that can form your own opions and dieas in your own mind and heart. Honey it is not good enough just to show up. I know a foot dr. who just showed up to perform oepnheart surgery I guess thats ok( alittle dramatic to make a point I know).
you honestly believe that anyone knows the whole story...please put down the extra weight you feel you must carry for us all and let people live.
It is rational and mean voices such as yourself that will help us all grow stronger as we move right through your voice.
wow closed minds I love it...and hence the reason this "movement" has become to be looked at by officials,MOST of the 99% supposedly being spoke for by .05% of them,and its not on weight I am carrying its foolisness I see by those who allegedly speak for you, me and the rest of this country. I persoanlly do not like people and do not know why you would,people speaking for me that just speak and do not know why. Thats a horrible thought adn even more horrible to know people likeyourelf do not care,that leads one to believe you really do not care about an issue or agenda that can affect you but just the arguments and chaos not the outcome. A sad day when this is what protesting became.
this isnt protesting it is a forum...fool
uh duh,a forum for a protest, a movement, a mission statment...did you think this was a chat site to make friends or for you to rant about something? Fool huh is that suppose to be an insult? Well here we go again: do you know a person who results to insults or cursing is one who can not form an intelligent thought or voice an opinion or own idea to an issue so covers their ineptness by cursing or insulting. Fool huh?
and what did u mean when u were calling people closed minds?...fool
not ready to receive to new ideas................ lacking tolerance or flexibility or breadth of view....well thats what I mean by closed-minded....well like 99% of the "99%" thinking the views that they follow (do not come up with own ideas) are THE ONLY VIEWS and will not listen to or understand other views. Simple
are u there? how can they be open to ideas that are not being presenting...it is like OccupyLA expecting OWS to occupy the ports in LA... nonsensical
Honey let me try and simplify this...why are you here? forget anyone else...you
alright sweety...I will be applying the K.I.S.S principle to this: 10+ years ago I watched from aclose distant the towers fall...it led to a reanalyzation of life and the principles that we should be living with...to present moment, that means getting new and I can not get that many conventional places so reading through the forum (or a small portion of it) for me currently is like reading the paper...minus of course the asinine comments of a typical imperial nature that are found here (like urs). That said of greater importance to me is those of us living on the front lines of creation, that dream for the day that the Occupiers open up the vault wide enough to allow our country and its youth to begin living well. As the protestors push through the criticisms and lack of belief from the many and earn the nation a chance to listen for change we will be there to lead the education of living well. enough for now...I am ready to be astonished by your schooling
Well honey try as you will but there is nothing within that,ramble of yours,that, I do not know, I guess trying to be philisophical speech,that say you even know what the principle of K.I.S.S means.
Ill try to make this simple again what is ows mission statement? (btw simply put this can be answered in less than 10 words)
where does the "phrase or term" " govt corrupted by or laws changed for the 1%/rich,etc.." come from? (btw that can be asnwered in less than 5 words) SIMPLICITY
Heres MY thoughts...You do not know....So you try to come up with an open ended answer that you do not know for yourself what that true answer is.
10 years ago you were somewhere I guess watching or seen on tv or something,when the towers fell(pssst I might have been a ittle closer than you BTW) which has nothing to do with this,but,it caused you to re-think our principles,so that means you have made alot of changes in your life since than,for the betterment of America and the world,correct?
Lets get passed all that rambling you did and get to the end of it...what exactly do YOU mean when YOU make the statement:
"...greater importance to me is those of us living on the front lines of creation, that dream for the day that the Occupiers open up the vault wide enough to allow our country and its youth to begin living well..."
Now YOU did come up with that quote on your own,correct,it was not copied from anywhere? So I would like for you to explain it in simple terms,you know for someone like me who does not understand.
Wake-up People! Anything that moves us in a more humane and responsible direction is a good thing and is a good cause. It is the fact of our declining moral values ( Golden Rule ) that has gotten us this far down the road of corruption to begin with!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOW WOW WOW....MORAL VALUES,,,overindulgence,greed,pride,desires,wants above our NEEDS...thats what has become the american way OUR WAY from consumers to corporations to the politicians...I have argued this point numerous times...WE feed the GREED with our own GREED...also meaing we have some part in these economical problems SOME PART..not most or all but some. Some people do not agree with that,will not take ANY responsibility for it(hmmmm friend Girl...lol) ,its a shame, we can not fix them/they unless we fix ourselves first....
Hopefully. We are beginning to fix ourselves. Hopefully this is what this movement will become - a WAKE-UP CALL. We need to fix Government to fix our World. Perhaps in taking part in this movement will cause people to do a little introspection as well.
Dk very well put,not that I am any philosophy major or english professor,far from it infact you can ask those on here who try to insult me cause sometimes I write in run on sentences and misspell from trying to type fast.....lol...but yes I do love what you ust said. I do not think in our time ( I am 42) we will see that significant shift thast needed but I just hope we ALL realize its ALL of us that have to change to change the govt to change the world.
I thank you for that comment. I truly believe that if this movement is going to go anywhere, that it will need to grow on our individual growth.
I read, then reread your posts and I still can't understand what you are trying to get across. The all-caps parts (shouting) doesn't make you more clear. I suggest you take a few minutes to edit before you hit submit. If you are trying to say that fur protests are not relevant to OWS, I disagree. In the same way that corporations exploit people, they also exploit the earth and non-human animals. Also, if we are a non-violent movement we need to recognize the way that we devalue living beings (human/ animal/plant) in our minds to rationalize extreme exploitation and violence toward them. Also, Peta is one of many organizations and individuals speaking out against the fur industry on fur-free friday. This protest has a long history and has contributed to a huge decline in fur sales. Instead of complaining about groups you don't like, why don't you define a vision for Occupy and work toward it?
well Evea allow me to retort,FIRST OF ALL I DID NOT KNOW THAT YOU CAN HEAR THESE CAPS...you must have supersonic hearing,can never understand that "thought" caps are screaming,screaming is something that is heard not seen,second I did not know that I was in an essay writing contest here,spelling or grammar matters so much I thought the points,views ,opinions and facts do.Third,let me guess you got so good at "writing" by staying in college for 10 years taking up...philospophy on NOT yours but on either the GOVT money or mommy and daddys,fourth PETA was not the one protesting,fifth the protest, if you actually listen was for the INHUMANE WAY they kill the animals...lol..not the killing of ( And I have to say I do not agree with harming defenseless animals at all)sixth NON VIOLENT,where is that protest? It is deffinately not in NYC or Oakland,or.....It is Illegal actions it is not protesting,violent,threatening,harrasing and disrupting the normal people who go to work and live in a functioning productive society,seventh ONLY I can let someone devalue and exploit me,usually done fbecause blinded by my own wants,desries,greed,pride and ego,eighth a mission statement on behalf of a movement should not become or allow another to be intergrated with it for than it will make that issue moot and deemed invalid. Ninth and the most important there WAS a vision there WAS a message do you know what it is? I will give you a hint: egtrra/jgtrra, now those are abbreviations for what or how the term(s) was coined "corruption in govt" ,"1% the rich controlling govt","corporations/rich/bankers,etc.. bribing govt and changing laws",this is what its about and how it got started,so if YOU want to change be part of what this is about than YOU should look up those abbreviations find out what it means,study it,investigate it,with an openmind,understand it and than try to voice YOUR opinion and views on it from YOUR head and heart.Than try to figure out how it can be changed FAIRLY for the 100% not 99 or 1 but for everyine,that will also be productive for the people and moneteraly for the country.
those that cant understand the movement arent paying attention. we the people are taking back the power everyway we can
Mark,,,when was the last time you worked a steady job that lasted more than 5 years? When was the last time you voted? When you voted did you vote for EVERY election? I will ask you like I ask everyone else what does that staement mean..we the people are taking back the power in everyway...can you explain what this movement is about? and PLEASE do not use coined terms like corrupt govt , wall street contolling the govt,bankers robbing the people..use your own words from where THOSE terms came from....if you do not know where those came from,you did not answer those questions above in a yes or postive result, you have no right even saying things like that, you can not take back something you never owned!!!!!
well i worked today and been there almost 5 years. i vote. but all that isnt working for most people anymore
Everyone and his dog is trying to co-opt OWS, but so far, none of them have actually succeeded - don't let the talking heads convince you otherwise. They always will be trying to do so, and the talking heads will always be tripping over themselves to write the obituary.
There is nothing that can stop it until the conditions that caused it are changed. Even if the name is smeared or co-opted, it will simply resurface as something else. Fuck 'em all, just keep driving.
um, lets see . . .
the luxury end of the economy is the only one doing anything . . .
and now you clowns are afraid . . .
I kinda like it.
Fur has been hated for all the ages not just all of the suddan! Accept for by animals!
Hated,god and I do feel for the animals TRULY I am a big fan of animals and even animal rights,but,the fact still stands an the activist SHOULD protest if they want under THEIR BANNER,the OWSers SHOULD NOT,on their own accord because they feel like it, bring the OWS "name" into anothers protest. OWS is about something not about fur by bringing it into another issue you now say we have no statement accept to cause trouble. The ones that do that are actually saying to everyone we have no agenda,we are protesting just to be part of something,anything. Since they go under the OWS "flag" OWS now looks like it is foollishly just running amok.
Agreed, Op.
This is NOT a Liberal protest This is NOT a vegetarian protest This is NOT a animal rights protest
We need to focus on what we started on, the economy.
Thank you libertarian,simple IF they/them/ the voicers even know why this was started THATS what they should stick to..
What is the point in comparisons?
We are dealing with criminals.
Who cares what kind of coat they are wearing?
You people are scary.
i agree, these people are scary and really negative and i'm going to stop looking at the deep unconsciousness and specism here and get on with my animal activism.
"The truth is Hitler didn't do everything. He was a world class tyrant, but the evil was actually done by the Third Reich, from the slave-labor camps to WW2 was all done by German citizens who were afraid to question if what they were told by their government was the truth or not, and who because they did not want to admit to themselves that they were afraid to question the government, refused to see the truth behind the Reichstag Fire, refused to see the invasion by Poland was a staged fake, and followed Hitler into national disaster."
"When Hitler requested temporary extraordinary powers, powers specifically banned under German law, but powers Hitler claimed he needed to have to deal with the "terrorists", the German people, having already sold their souls to their self-delusions, agreed."
holy shit.... sounds familiar. Then hundreds of thousands of muslims and arabs were slaughtered throughout different countries. Gotta bomb that water supply. Oops we thought there were bombs being made in that food supply factory. Oops we thought there were bombs in that residential area. Oops UN sanctions killed 500,000 Iraqi children in the 90's. Oops over 150,000 innocent Iraqi citizens have died since the Iraq war. Well oops that's only 15,000 a year. Oops we thought the Libyan rebels were good. Oops we didn't know they were actually terrorists, even though we did. Oops.... most people didn't know because most people didn't care. Complacency kills.
Our government is filled with treasonous tyrants. Most of whom support racial profiling and a police state, and the murder of innocent people because WAR. George W Obama are guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Obama's goal... do enough for people to think he's on their side while continuing the wars and starting new ones. The problem is Afghanistan. Even though the USA created the problem with the CIA in 1979.
HUH....oh I did not know I moved from an OWS page to an anti ,I do not know war page or a for terroism page,or ....I do not know ,sorry I will try to find my way back to the OWS page
hey.
okay so some news outlet (?) pinned a story about Animal Rights activists on OWS... so what?
is OWS full of people of all stripes and strangenesses and causes and opinions...? I hope so, otherwise we would not be "the 99%"
can news outlets pick people out of OWS and give them a soap-box in order to mock them or promote them? I hope so otherwise we don't have free press.
I guess I don't see the "problem" here. or the question.
I just wanna get back to the basic point of why OWS is here, most everyone thinks it a joke now and it has become a bother instead of a message on an issue because there is no longer a MESSAGE on a ISSUE but a bunch of people screaming and some whinning about a bunch of things..basically would.they should just have a complaint movement instead fill out you complaint and that will be todays issue to get a message out about.
I have to say I think you are over-simplifying things and painting OWS with too broad of a brush. Of course there are "whinners" and "complainers", but there are indeed a "bunch of people".
Where are you getting your news anyway? Are you anywhere near one of these "Occupations"? Could you go check one out for yourself?
Yes... there is a laundry list of issues. The main issue is that our Democracy is broken and our elected representatives are not even tryingto solve OUR (the country's problems) they are busy "taking orders" from lobbyists. So of course there is a long list of problems. I agree with some, but not all. But I am at least glad OWS is drawing attention to the fact that our system is broken. WE ALL need to get involved to fix it. OWS is not going to fix anything... unless it succeeds in engaging the 99%.
Try to listen through all the noise.
STOP!!! I live in Brooklyn and no did not migrate here,bred bron and raised here. And yes I DID go down to this "movement" ,"protest" or should I say ILLEGAL ACTION or stopping traffic,harrasing& threatening people going to work ,tresspassing and such ( no matter how small illegal is illegal) and I ASKED people. No I am not a reporter and yes the people I spoke to knew it. I was a citizen that wanted to know...beamer you would deffinately at one point question why are these people speaking for "me". You at one point might even questin the first ammendment and some other parts of our glorious constitution. I did this on more than one occasion,one time I went to protect my wife from these animals while she went to work.Now she can handle herslef fine but my rpide just had to go "protect" her,the same way some of these people just "want to be part of something" not even knowing why...Here as I posted is ONE example ...ready for this? A group of people,maybe 20 or 30 I spoke with 3 -4 of them about what does 99% mean , REPLY well it stands for the fact the federal govt ONLY gave 99 weeks of emergency unemployment .....and it should be more.....now does that not make you question you "patriotism" or love of this country?
well shit. I say... goddam it people! what the fuck!? how did this person and his wife have this experience?!?
hey OWS... what do you say to this?!?
well I haven't been down to NYC so I can't defend anything. it sounds like absolutely shameful behavior to me.
but no... it doesn't shake my faith in the Constitution and I'm a patriot still. it's a weak excuse, but I think you found the 1% of the "99%" of the OWS-- the asshole 1%. people are angry and fed up with what they see... so, yeah... they're not on their best behavior, and even when they are they're annoying sometimes.
shit. shit shit shit!
i hope you stay on this forum and continue to let OWS folks know that this was the experience you had when you attempted to engage them. Really I want you to go back down and go to a GA and give them an ear-full.
Indeed, it's possible that OWS will fail. and we will simply continue down the corporate road, no democracy... and no way to do anything but give our lives... not to the pursuit of happiness... but to the pursuit of profits.
to which i say... oh well, whatever, the dinosaurs lasted 60 million years! human beings might not make it to even 1 million.
Oops. You don't like when you can't argue against a message do you? Because it's the truth. The government is filled with tyrants.
HUH...listen you can follow and copy anything you like its ok if you can not form a inteligent though or idea on your own from you mind and heart...does not mean I have to listen to it
What would you like me to say? I guess I don't get your perspective. Do you just not like the people in OWS? I'm not in new york but my city has a local chapter here. Do you think the government is perfect? Do you not think the US dollar is decreasing in value? Do you not think the Wall Street, the federal reserve, and the government have a roll in the value of our US dollar and how our economy works?
I wrote this one myself, as I did the comment above, but I included parts of an essay about the fourth reich in quotes in my previous comment... This next few paragraphs is my simplification that I give to people who don't quite get what I'm pissed about.
I am not anticorporation and anti-banks. I am against corporations that abuse their power and are infiltrating our government. I am against the abuse of the monetary system that the federal reserve is responsible for. We have a debt based privatized monetary system that is not in the constitution. The abuse of Wall Street, the federal reserve, and the government has caused our US dollar to decrease in value drastically over the past 14 years.
Here are some ideas to help fix parts of our broken system.
Propose a bill to end the patriot act. Remove and outlaw all dictatorial presidential powers, like life imprisonment without trial, assassinations, bypassing congress for wars like in Libya.
Propose a bill to end massive contributions from lobbyists, unions, and corporate influences. The "supreme" court ruled McCain-Feingold unconstitutional. Obviously the supreme court is corrupt. They claimed that "McCain-Feingold" denied "free speech" even though 1: Money isn't free and 2: 100% of US citizens still would have had freedom of speech and the ability to contribute to campaigns. So how was the supreme court able to say it suppresses free speech? Another fact, a lot of corporations are owned through many investors. Sometimes these investors are foreigners. I didn't know foreigners in other countries were allowed to participate in our government. The government is supposed to be governed by it's people. I feel like most members of the government have never read the constitution.
I'd say propose a bill to nationalize the federal reserve but that bill has already been created and is being reviewed by the Financial Institutions and Credit Committee. Look up The National Emergency Employment Defense Act of 2011.
All these rich people keep telling us that our country is in massive debt... all the while they keep making more money. These rich people are members of congress and the president. Being a member of the government should not provide immunity from the law. Insider trading and all other crimes, including war crimes, should be punishable at any time they are guilty.
A quote: "Both parties are rotten - how could they not be, given the complete infestation of the political system by corporate money on a scale that now requires a presidential candidate to raise upwards of a billion dollars to be competitive in the general election?"
THE WAR IN IRAQ IS BASED ON LIES from Bush to Obama it's still the same war monger. The rebels in Libya are actually terrorists which include many members of Al Qaeda and they have been slaughtering black libyans and torturing people after being captured.
hmm mnow that "you" said all this ,question what are you and or OWS's issue? War in iraq,terroism,white supremacy,communism...my point of this post is to see why ALL THESE OTHER issues are getting involved in OWS's mission statment....this was about one point and one point inly and NOBODY even knows what it is anymore....there is only ONE LINE IN YOUR RANT dedicated to it and I bet you do not even know what it is now its not exact but its close enough .
There is more than 1 point and there always has been. I will agree with you that as time has passed the protest has definitely been broadened as more people have become aware of more corruption and bullshit. My main focus is corruption in the government. You stop the corruption you stop the bullshit. Here's a fucked picture of examples of how corruption happens.
This diagram is almost unbelievable but it's true. This is how the corporations get away with so much bullshit. They put their own people in the government and the FDA and other places.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread778572/pg1
Well again you are getting closer VERY close like the warm and cold game...The biggest problem is this was all started by those who are not even goverened by our govt but are from Canada...how funny is that part? Let me clue you in something:egtrra/jgtrra this is what needs to be addressed in a number of different settings and ways....what is it? An abbreviation for the "problem" everyone is bitching about.Than Obama came in and didnt change it llike he promised but extended it,,,now do you know what it is? Thats where the statement(s) "corruption from the 1% in our government" is coming from,"the government is controled and bribed by coporations","corporate greed is changing laws"...find out what those abbreviations mean,investigate it,study it than share YOUR views on it,think about it what do you think can be done to change it for the 100% not the 1 or the 99 in a way fair to everyone and monetarly fair for the country(taxes and such) in a way that in 10-15 years we will not say oooops we did it again and lets blame someone for it not us in anyway,even the liberials voted democratic did not find a way to CHANGE it like he ws saying during his campaign. MAYBE if we the people UNDERSTAND it than WE THE PEOPLE can help change it by voiceing an educated opinion,debate and thoughts,put the IDEAS out there for them to HEAR AND READ.Than if not we vote against them. THATS THE TRUE WAY TO WORK THE FIRST AMMENDMENT and our FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
I can agree with that. Do you have any specifics to provide?
Just investigate and really read and study so to speak those abbreviations....Do it with an openmind and NOT the hate that you may feel when reading it (like we all probably feel when we see certain things we do not agree with remember the abbreviations are: egtrra ( from 2001 ) jgtrra (from 2003) NOT EASY READING pesonally you need to be a economic scientest to fully understand it but S**T do you not think we should try before "speaking" on it?
What's your point exactly in reference to these two bills? I'm looking them up now but I got to go. I'd like to hear your thoughts. I got to go to work but I bookmarked the google search so I can read them when I'm off work. So far they just look like the Bush tax cuts. Off to work.
ciao trevor have a good night at work...and yes thats what they are and thats what this movement was all about at first...think about this they say "corporate greed runs the country" "1% run the govt" "corporations and the 1%" force the govt to change laws for them "corruption in the govt"....thats what this is all about, stemming,these "sayings" from those cuts(bush doing for his corporate and rich frineds)....,those loopholes,etc...now if you( and when I say you I do not mean you proverbally) want to argue or fight for OR against something you should atleast know what it is about in some sense. Thats callled being responsible to you,those you are arguing for and all others. Something they do not realize when discussing this is that Obama(who most of them voted for) even did not change it or do away with it ( corruption in govt...via bush tax cuts) all he did was extend it...lol..and add some job nonsense to it...see the other part is as of NOW if they do away totally with it than unfortunately when it was put into place it was also beneficial to the middle class...if they do away with it right now mid class taxes will go up anywhere from 1000.00 to 2000.00 for yearly tax payout.
Lunch break... Check out this bill. It denies corporate and private organization financing
http://teddeutch.house.gov/UploadedFiles/DEUTCH_036_xml.pdf
This is what I'm all about.
"now if you( and when I say you I do not mean you proverbally) want to argue or fight for OR against something you should atleast know what it is about in some sense"
Fuck Yes! I 100% agree with that quote. Obama is a traitor in my opinion. He is George W Obama to me. His puppetry is obvious. He does "enough" for most liberal to think that "at least he's trying but keeps getting denied by republicans" which is "THEIR" tactic. He voiced himself in favor of "McCain-Feingold" but when it failed in the supreme court he went right back to accepting a ton of corporate money. He lied about the wars, just as Bush did, and now he recently supported terrorism in Libya. The "rebels" have strong ties with Al Qaeda, and the Al Qaeda flag flies over the courthouse in Benghazi. 2 congressmen have talked about this yet NO MEDIA outlets have brought this up. Obama has not talked about it. They just called it "mission accomplished."
2 parties = 1 master. The Obama tactic is a new trick they came up with. The art of war is based on deception.
Trevor...I do not want to get into wars,oversees other countrys terrorist and such BUT,remember this as well, WE,AMERICA put bin laden and his crew into power to help fight the russians in Afghanastan,than turned our backs on themjust like libya,the only REAL way to change the govt whcih can not be done need to take the human equation out of it...lol...ALL I expect,would like to see is people to go and read things about the terms coined "corrpution on govt" "controlled by the rich and 1%/corporations" Athey do not you read up on the Bush tax cutsny shot you can pvt m,you have that knowledge to discuss this movement MOST of them out there do not they JUST talk with no basis other than he said she said,no thoughts,opinions or ideas of their own either for OR against,message me Ill give yo my email and you can send it in PDF????????? there goes my paranoias I do not open links from anyone Trevor...lol
Yes, I can agree a lot of people do not know about a lot of important problems, specifically in our government. it is our job as the informed to get information out there. Thanks to many others, I have gained a ton of information thanks to conversations with many. Any knowledge known must be shared. This is how we all know.
You're exactly right... 1979 was a big year for bullshit. In 1979 and the Afghan Arabs and the Muhajidareen (forgive the spelling) were created by the CIA and a prominent member of the Afghan Arabs was Osama himself. The government didn't care because they just knew we didn't like Russians and we didn't like the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. Then the Taliban and Al Qaeda became huge and a ton of horrible shit went down. The story goes on. Just like now in Libya.
Fun video with a great dialog, so true too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8rQNdBmPek&list=FLEwSllwonAZBCc7W3e27_dQ&index=7&feature=plpp_video
reductio ad hitlerum
This is not a single voice movement. A couple years ago I got two ferrets. When I see fur coats, I see my little boys. I'm not an anti-fur activist, but I know where they're coming from.
Though I don't agree with all of it, but Mike Ruppert's 9/11/11 talk had one essential message: until we change the way money works we won't change a thing. Ruppert's given up on 9/11 Truth, which I haven't done. Nonetheless, he makes a valid argument about our flawed monetary system.
That's a good place to focus our efforts.
Some people think that when they hear and see OWS that it's like we are going to give them an opportunity to protest anything that may have leftist support.
We are a leaderless movement with a lot of different views involved. It's almost like chaos theory in action. Order eventually comes out of chaos.
Only a select few of us actually support using OWS to protest against fur. I am an environmentalist myself. I work seasonally for a river company, and I have a stake in river-related activism. I don't use OWS to those ends. I have a couple of organizations I use to those ends.
If you want to stop fur, there are many environmental organizations out there that are against it. OWS is about economic injustice. Just because it tends to be on the progressive side does not mean we all are going to advocate everything in the progressive arena.
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If we allow Dr.Paul's trolls to spew their nonsense, PETA also gets a voice. I find them both incredibly misguided, but they are allowed a voice.
TL thats were you are wrong and so is everyone else....and this is why OWS's mission statement is not getting any quality support and is losing momentum so they have to resort to discord,disruption and illegal acts to get the point across,cause nobody will listen to or wants to listen to a movement that has no point anymore.
See PETA or Dr.Paul ( I do not even know who it is) have NO right being on OWS platform IF they are not here to discuss OWS's issue(s). I think we need to adress global warming,animal rights,human rights,hungary families in america,rising tides,lack of food,lack of water,over population but I am not and should not piggyback off another cause to get my point across,I should start my own cause get people to understand my views and HOPEFULLY they will take up their voices with me. OWS has no agenda ANYMORE and lost control of the MAIN issue(s) they were fighting for and it became a cluster F**K of people saying what they want on OWS'S platform losing OWS's message
Well then, we have a choice. Either give PETA and Dr Paul the boot or let both of them participate. By the way, PETA is Animal Rights and I don't advocate such a radical view. I advocate humane treatment of animals and support the SPCA. There's a vast difference between the 2 groups. I say we should focus on campaign reform, regulating and separating the banks, and addressing inequality. Your positions are not what I remember OWS being founded upon.
Actually, PETA has never been "Animal Rights," as you put it, and certainly is not so now. It kills like crazy. That said, who is the radical here--the person who practices compassion toward all beings, or the one who endorses torture and killing of sentient animals, exploitation of animals as well as human workers, destruction of ecosystems (check the water quality near a factory farm, slaughterhouse, or fur "farm," or the e Coli levels downstream from one of these industries), waste of grain on low-yield and unhealthy animal agriculture while millions starve to death, etc. Monsanto, Exxon, BP, Big Pharma, "factory farms" (and others that slaughter animals) are predicated on principles of profit motive, greed, exploitation and it is time to stop it. now. I do not know the details of this apparent "discrepancy," nor do I see why people are so outraged. And by the way, you are correct: "SPCA" (meaning, local, non-ASPCA organization) is better than Peta; the former helps animals (no thanks to the ASPCA, which is not associated with the SPCAs) and the other kills them.
The ASPCA is the American branch of the SPCA. They are definitely associated. I don't expect any organization to have the resources to keep every animal alive. But I despise PETA for pretending they do while slaughtering animals and spending all donations on marketing campaigns.
I agree infact there was just a post about censorship on the site I just repsonded to it..I think there should be, find it read it read my "opinions" and than go from there...but yes they should be booted and anything else that is not for OR EVEN against OWS's missions statement and or movement, it should be a direct comment, again for OR against OWS's issue A debate on it a view on it a way to change it way to prevent a way to help solve it. Go read that thread about censorship that was posted,I know my reply is going to get people pissed but it is the truth and people hate the truth.
Like it or not, they are part of the 99%. I advocate censoring the spammers, but I still think if they are willing to show up to the occupatoins, they should get a voice. One strength I think we have is that we let everyone get a voice. If those that don't like our message want to smear us from message boards, I simply tell them they have an opportunity to go to the occupations and voice their concerns. If they do not, then even they know they are not worth listening to.
well you are right well yu are wrong well I do not know anymore...see I went down there to succotti park and again I am going to tell this story a group of 30-40 pple milling about doing nothing,when i asked you know I am confused what does 99% mean they said,ready for this hold onto your hat, 99 means that the federal govt only gave 99 weeks of emergensy unemployment extensions and its should be longer...yup theres your 99% voice...a few homless that I quote they give our free food and cigarettes,,,more 99% voice infact sadly the himless ones are probably only looking for company as well not just food,they feel their looks they fit in there and nobody is going to judge them...studetn loans...hold on breaks there take loans and now say wait I do not want to pay it back...now looking even furthe into this ...I do not know what to think anymore,even worse than before. How sad that this movement is over and has no point.
I find this very sad - it reminds me of tv ads for pet charities -
use your money to feed a cat - in stead of a child????????
I'm not inhumane, but wasting our time on fur sadly proves that
many of us have ( pardon the pun ) pet projects that benefit no one.
Sort of like "they" tie up our government certifying our national motto or stopping flag burning.
A sad waste of our movement.
Bensdad, that tired dichotomy is getting very old. Compassionate people are overflowing with this concern, and it extends to people, animals, and all beings. No one, NO ONE, said anything about not feeding a child, or about favoring animals over people. where would you get that idea? Stopping fur is a very worthy project and not a waste at all. Also, until people evolve a little bit they will perpetuate violence. Do you "own" your children? No, I didn't think so--and the idea is repugnant. Who died and made you king of the animal world.
Yes bensdad, sad,sometimes heart wrenching,I am a big advocate and I love animals yes indeed BUT this is not the platform of the OWS movement,think OUR american hunray famiies and children should be first and foremost BUT AGAIN this is not the platform for it...you are right.GET BACK TO THE ISSUES and STOP joining or saying anything JUST TO DO IT AND BE PART OF SOMETHING. Than they wonder why that nobody listes to them.
They are concerned about human rights in Egypt just like Amnesty International, and now they want PETA's job. I guess they'll become Red Cross #2 next week. The rest of the time is spent talking about police confrontations which inevitably result from direct actions. Hopefully, one day, they'll start tackling the problem of money in politics. Until then, we can't complain they aren't keeping us on our toes. Occupy is certainly not boring; a multifaceted little diamond it is.
Thrasymaque....How true it is how very true,the main original point and issue 89% of the .05% of protesters of the 99% do not even know what they are even there for anymore or even knew to begin with. It truly is sad when you scream about something you do not even know what it is or what its about.Like a child throwing a tantrum ,they do not even know why they are, they just are a, thousand things going through their tiny minds at that point,not that their toy was taken form them that started the tantrum