Forum Post: What would post OWS uptopia look like in your mind?
Posted 13 years ago on Dec. 3, 2011, 4:07 a.m. EST by irsfaggot
(171)
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I don't know where to start but I will play your game. First of all you don't need a monolithic super empire, think States or Countys as regional power, then think like in Italy where Tuscany is communism, but Milano up north is fascist, everybody's happy. Why can't the next ameriKKKa be that way? Why do you always have to have these strong regional super-centers like DC that tend to aggregate power and waste resources??? I'm NOT king and I particularly wouldn't want to live in a socialist uptopia, but I don't deny you that right, ... go build one today. The best places on earth are communal in nature, there are still remote farms in China operating communally and much of SE-ASIA, and people living like they lived 500 years ago, everything comes from the land, and nobody needs to import anything, ... everybody has everything they need. Then look at modern USA, nothing is made, nobody has a job, and everybody shops at corporate walmart where 'cargo' is made faraway, an everybody eats at mcDonald's, .. So long as that is the model nothing can work. I don't believe in names, your socialism could be my HELL, what I do know is that people in Africa live just fine, I have seen so with my own eyes and in much of the 3rd world. It is only when people create these city-hells and are a generation away from agriculture that things go to hell. In my mind people like you want to keep what you have ipod, walmart, auto's but want to have an ATM card that never run's dry.... The only way people can be happy is to have work, and food and sex an family, ... where everybody essentially has the same shit, then theft decreases. So long as people have all this SHIT ( iPods, iPHones, ... ) there will be theft and need for police. Lastly why fucking wait, go now to paradise, go live in south-america, or se-asia, ... go anywhere and live, why the fuck would anyone want to live in a police state like the USA where all the citizens are just consumes of gadgets and shit, and everyone watches mindless TV, .. for what? ↥like ↧dislike reply edit delete permalink
You know your keyboard comes with a space bar, tab for paragraphs and your brain should come with the ability to formulate proper structure arguments. Public schools are bad but they should have taught you all the very least.
If you going to ask a question that is not easy to answer and want it directed in under a paragraph; everything you just wrote is all just noise.
Let's be honest here, the software tools provided by this site suck dick big time. It should be what you see is what you get. ... It's NOT There should be a search, ... there is not, ... there are many things not to like about everything in the world of OWS. I write the way I write, and then it gets mangled by the OWS forum software. After I click 'save' I don't really care I have said what I want to say, if zsp can wade through the shit then so can you. Why is it that ONLY zsp ( zion sock puppet ) is the only one here that ever reply's on topic, and everyone else talks about periods, spaces, ... and silly shit? What are you a bunch of un-employed nannies?
How do you expect to be taken seriously when you use hate speech in your tag "irsfaggot". And then continue to write things like "suck a dick". I can understand if you are 12 years old. But I suspect you are older. You might get a few more responses to your actual content if everyone wasn't so distracted by your hate speech. Do you even think about how it feels to read the word "faggot" would you use the word "nigger" because it kind of feels similar to many people. please change your name it is disgusting.
The best experiments happen at local levels and then have the ability to spread out if successful. Violent insurrections rarely work in the population's favor. You can't just throw a bunch of people into a new economy in which they have really no idea as to how to control. At that point, the economy is likely doomed to failure or become something of a dictatorship by the few.
Despite the fact that I have socialist tendencies myself and am a supporter of chaos theory in social considerations, I have to ask: Why do we need any sort of managed rules to govern an economy? Let a local economy develop and see where it goes. It will have its own set of ideas and guidelines. We can not determine success if we institute draconian policies, whether in a capitalist, socialist, syndicalist, whatever economy. The ones that seem the more successful alternative institutions right now are mostly those favoring the cooperative ideas.
George Kennan suggested something like that, dividing the country into a number of pretty much autonomous regions, with a federal govt for defense and maybe the mail, but little else. Read his excellent book, "Around The Cragged Hill."
(Of course, some people say that this is what the states are supposed to be...)
If everybody left the U.S.A. for utopia, then the rest of the world would be hell.
I think simply a kinder and gentler 1% should suffice.
I think the current system is just fine, make the USA a prison, and keep the 100% right here, and then us that have already found uptopia elsewhere live quite nice and comfy. :)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50500650/yourtopia-your%20official%20final%20beginning.pdf
A book, to describe your utopia. This is yourtopia.
I think a "post OWS utopia" should largely sample from previous eras. OWS is intended to be a broad coalition of sensible Americans, and as such any "utopia" it can achieve should reflect the good part of America without the bad things that happened. It would be like the 1920s without the racism, the 1930s without the Depression, the 1940s without the war, the 1950s but without the McCarthyist conformism, like the 1960s without the Vietnam War and the War on Drugs, like the 1970s freed by renewable energy from all dependence on foreign oil, like the 1980s without the taxes shifted from the wealthy to the poor. Some organizations that are in the OWS have long detailed radical agendas, but the practical outcome should simply be to stop going down the wrong road and try the right one.
Excellent writing and good thoughts. Focus on what we do wrong, rather than shoving another persons 'good' or their agenda upon us. Largely what you have mentioned is 'empire-building', mcCarthyism was about building an anti-commie empire, 50's+ war by the MIL-INDUSTRIAL complex and their desire to build a 'new roman empire' ( but with horrible results ), The war's have been continual with korea post WWII USA was involved in Vietnam in early 50's the war was kept secret until 1960's. The USA invades country's because it can, because its population can be told a lie.
So many lies have been told, talking about long like when everybody had pot-plants and opium poppies in their garden and would self-medicate, but the medical industrial complex made self-medicating illegal in 1910's.
The thing about ameriKKKa is any pressure-group can achieve any result they wish such as HOOVER building his FBI, or BUSH/HEARST building their CIA/OSS, now we have the new DHS, and DOE, and DOT,... each is their own private army, armed to the teeth, few people know that DOE has the best sniper teams in the world.
So long as men can build empires, like HOOVER built the FBI and stayed their for 50 years, so long as the ameriKKKan people can be fed shit, and said empires can grow and like today literally control the earth, today the FBI has large offices in ever metro city in the world, in Russia & China the FBI/IRS offices have +500 field agents. Think about that? For what? To control the world.
All the things you have mentioned are true in those periods, but all those things were allowed to grow, like 'war on drugs' it allowed the prison-industrial-complex to grow into the largest public-union in the world, such power, and so easy for any totalitarian in the USA, ... but it was all done with FAKE MONEY and today US DOLLAR is collapsing, ... so the pain, ...
Now everybody is afraid, the police state may not get its paycheck, its the end of the world as COPS know the world.
Even public education in the USA is no more than prison for children.
I think you for your compliment, and I don't want to turn around and criticize, but I really think you should reconsider your approach here. A username like yours makes you sound like an Internet troll, the random capitalization puts off neutral readers, the FBI (despite some infamous history) has been doing good work recently in the Luzerne County private prison kickbacks case and in the Shenandoah murder coverup. And the "ameriKKKa" thing is frankly undeserved. Our country has done so much - more than I had imagined it would - to put the KKK era and racism behind us ... it doesn't deserve that. It is easy and not wrong to be outraged by injustices, but we also need to remember how much has been accomplished. I think OWS people need to do more not to come off as mere harpies, to use the carrot more than the stick, to avoid the universal condemnation of everyone and everything that lies so very close to defeatism and apathy.
I think part of this is that certain widely publicized expressions of Christianity for so long were corrupted by the most amoral interests, and people rightfully rejected a religion that they saw as bigoted and hypocritical - but in that rejection, we've lost the baby with the bathwater; we've lost some of the protections of charity and virtue and forgiveness that helped to keep things back from the brink. Though the OWS of course is secular in nature, to truly succeed - for America to succeed - it is going to need some faith and a whole lot of forgiveness in its heart. It will need to put the justice of its cause above the tactics of winning and losing - to appreciate America more for the good it does than the evil, even as people confront that evil face to face and suffer for it.
You talk about 'good' and FBI in one breath, sure even in Hitlers germany you could find examples of good, maybe 1%, But 99% of the FBI is rotten to the core, after all how else could a transvestite hold the reins for 50 years, if the beast wasn't rotten to the core.
You talk about arrests yet CORZINE who just robbed $500M from his own bank and sent the customer money overseas to EUROPE is walking free, because he is the MONEY man for Obama, and that money the $500M will be used for Obama's re-election, this ameriKKKa
The FBI chases the little people, but NEVER goes after the BIG.
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Utopia is impossible.
Here are some good ideas:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/approaching-a-metapolitical-discourse/
http://metapolitik.org/article/approaching-metapolitical-discourse
http://occupywallst.org/forum/life-beyond-capitalism/
Non-Lienear Thinking. A lot of nice words that don't mean anything. How boring is that?
The fact that you don't comprehend the content of the article, does not preclude it from having a very concise meaning. If you think that it's "a lot of nice words that don't mean anything", then you need to either read it again, or spend some time with a thesaurus.
Or it could simply mean that you are too lazy to bother reading the whole thing.
I read it. And I know the meaning of the words you use. You are hiding bad ideas under the umbrella of fancy words combined in ways that don't make sense. It's lame and similar to new-age drivel. Non-linear Thinking makes no sense. Would you care to explain to us what it means right here right now?
Clearly, the inchoate fumblings of a right angled mind.
'Non Linear Thinking' refers to the ability to grasp recursive, self-referential, metasyntactic, interdependent, meta-contextual, holographic, holistic or systems-based ideas. Ideas which support the "long view" and which incorporate a cross-disciplinary approach to problem solving.
In other words, those ideas which do not fall under the category of - or are contrasted with - Liner Thinking (reductionism, determinism, materialism, objectivism)... Or what one might typically consider a "short-view" - one which does not understand the deeper 'causality' of self-regulating systems and cannot look beyond short-term profits and results.
In other words, the capacity for understanding that which you (apparently) do not.
Like I said, new-age type drivel.
If you think that's "new-age type drivel", then by-extension, you also think that the work of marine biologists, soil scientists, software engineers, molecular biologists, physicists, astronomers and physicians are "new-age type drivel".
We're not talking crystals and magic here.
We're talking about applied generalized systems theory.
If you had a brain, you'd be Googling this shit instead of arguing with me about it.
You make yourself look so stupid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metasyntactic_variable
http://www.lifepositive.com/mind/personal-growth/personal-growth/lateral.asp
http://addstudent.com/2010/03/non-linear-thinking/
http://nonlinearthinking.typepad.com/
You just talk nonsense so you can come here and spam use with your links. I let you do that in peace. Good night.
Another TROLL slain!
Buh-Bye!
Not slain, just not interested by the claims made by simple minds like in the links you post. This for example: http://addstudent.com/2010/03/non-linear-thinking/ Lame at best. Intellectuals do not think like 1+1=2. If you think this is how people like Einstein work, then there is nothing more I can add. You have no understanding of how great minds think, and have always been thinking. Perhaps you should read James Joyce. That might help you see that people have been thinking in complex forms for, well, since the beginning of man. People with simple minds think like 1+1=2, not intellectuals. The mind never works in a dry linear way like you seem to think. Computers work this way. Minds are full of dreams and brusk turns. Human thought is extremely complex, and always has been.
You use terms like Non-Linear Thinking in an attempt to show that something new has been discovered, or something new is going on. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jean-Paul Sartre talked about the complexity of language and the mind one hundred years ago. Derrida has deconstructed all kinds of texts to show their complexity. Get with the times already! This is exactly what new-agers do. It's lame.
You can thrash around bleeding all you want.
And don't make me school you on Finnegan's Wake now too.
If you don't grok Non Linear Thinking... You certainly don't grok Joyce.
You just wrap up old knowledge in new clothes and scream of new discoveries. It's lame. Very lame. Your site won't get much traction. Not by intellectuals. Post your link again. You need to spam. It's the only way you're going to get hits. Go ahead.
"...the book, in a NONLINEAR DREAM NARRATIVE, follows his wife's attempts to exonerate him with a letter, his sons' struggle to replace him, Shaun's rise to prominence, and a final monologue by ALP at the break of dawn. The opening line of the book is a sentence fragment which continues from the book's unfinished closing line, making the work a never-ending cycle. Many noted Joycean scholars such as Samuel Beckett and Donald Phillip Verene link this cyclical structure to Giambattista Vico's seminal text Scienza Nuova ("New Science"), upon which they argue Finnegan's Wake is structured."
...Who needs a link?
At least I have some knowledge to wrap up.
My ideas are my own, thank you.
Citing references does not constitute plagiarism.
BLEED TROLL... Bleed.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-would-post-ows-uptopia-look-like-in-your-mind/#comment-470268
I don't agree with the claims you quote here. The world has always been complex. Critical thinkers have always exchanged with other critical thinkers. 2500 years ago, philosophy was flourishing with the thoughts of numerous wonderful minds that collided one against the other. Plato even used many various characters and points of views to create his complex dialogues which swerve in one direction, then the other. The Renaissance period already saw the melting of various fields together with such greats and DaVinci.
Things like - "We live in an increasingly "post-linear" age where working with people is more important than working with things, but much of our world remains trapped in the linear paradigm" make no sense. These writers don't bother to define anything, just like new-agers. What Linear Paradigm are they talking about? No one knows, we can only guess.
Your links only contain drivel. A lot of fancy words stitched together which in the end mean nothing much at all. Like I said, you just dress old knowledge in new clothes. Your simplistic analysis also denigrates the great minds of the past by trying to make use believe they thought in '1+2=2' patterns. Again, intellectuals will not flock to your site. You're just going to attract simple minded individuals. Have fun discussing issues with them.
Your criticisms are completely baseless and utterly without merit. A simple Google search for "Linear Thinking" will turn up a dozen or so scholarly articles by researchers in disciplines ranging from physics to business strategy analysis.
Your problem is that you are too lazy to bother reading or thinking about these issues and are content to sit back and lazily dismiss any idea which does not fall within your very limited conceptual framework. Since you are incapable of originality or of independent thought, the idea of people thinking independently or having original ideas scares the shit out of you and rather than face your own inadequacies, you would rather attack anyone who does not share your insecure view of the world.
Basically you are a tiny minded fool and a troll who doesn't even know when he's slain.
But rather than admit defeat and intellectual inferiority, you are like zombie troll that just keeps coming back for more and more abuse.
I must say, I admire your persistence.
But Cool Hand Luke, you ain't.
Yes, if you know this information, then you would know it makes no sense to talk about Non-Linear Thinking. It has existed from the beginning of time. There is no such thing has Linear Thinking. Hence, no reason to create the false dichotomy of Non-Linear vs Linear thinking.
You do understand James Joyce was writing with a technique called Stream of Consciousness. He was writing what came to his mind naturally.
Interesting parry.
Surprisingly adept!
So true that wounded are more dangerous.
However, again - you are mistaken.
According to the Science of Strategy Institute:
"There is a real difference between Sun Tzu's strategic methods and the deterministic planning model of problem solving. A useful way to describe this difference is to contrast the linear thinking of planning with the adaptive loop. Planning works with objects who cannot resist our plans. The adaptive loop works with other intelligent people, who have their own goals. The later describe the strategic methods that arose out of combat."
"We live in an increasingly "post-linear" age where working with people is more important than working with things, but much of our world remains trapped in the linear paradigm. Today's world is increasingly dynamic, unpredictable, and competitive requiring more and more adaptive methods to identify and utilize its opportunities, but linear planning produced tremendous gains in material wealth during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries by focusing on what could be predicted and controlled."
Only a flesh wound, eh?
What are you going to do now?
Bleed on me?
This question is Bogus and meant to agitate only, there is no such thing as Utopia,and therefore anything that you would describe would be flawed and lend itself to criticism,and attack ,which is exactly what the agenda driven question had in mind in the first place....Nice try Skippy,and NO SALE................. but thanks for playing, maybe you should try the clown dunk tank next. Anonymous
Go read 'looking backward' by edward bellamy in 1890, uptopia was the rage in 1890's ameriKKKana, .. why pray tell? Cuz the industrialization had forced the 95% from the farms to the city's, and all toiled in hell, thus the need for uptopia, which then became the sci-fi lit young spawn parasites enjoy,... today Why is 'uptopia' a banned subject?? This is the essential problem why I hate OWS almost all subjects are ORWELLIAN based, and the consensus tightly controlled to a few themes that are really boring. The real issue is man's unhappiness, Thoreau said it in 1860's "MOST MEN LEAD LIVES OF QUIET DESPERATION" Then as now, ... the question is what can you do about it?? The 97% have always lead shitty lives through human history, some 3% do something about it, money is NOT the road to happiness, but it is the blood if you live in the parasitic USA. I get the feeling from above that 'uptopian' thinking is banned, I think the uptopian lit that came out of the industrializaton is what led to unionization, only when men can vision a better world will they get off their ass to make such a place. This person is telling us to NOT even think about 'uptopia', now that is some scary fucking ORWELLIAN-OWS double think. Folks think about UPTOPIA, and then lets try to explain how it would work in real. I think me and thrasymaque ( socked puppet for aiPAC ), both agree that its impossible to have uptopia in a urban rat cage, all experiments show that when you contain a large number of rats in a cage they go insane. Period.
Agreed.
We have to at least try to envision a better world.
What I'm talking about with Metapolitik is not even that "utopian"... Just common sense really.
http://metapolitik.org/article/approaching-metapolitical-discourse
Although his presentation leaves much to be desired, the OP made a good point.
Well did anybody create a uptopia while I was gone?
I haven't seen one?
My only observation is that this forum lacks real-time update with the status of the OWS in the real world.
Which leads me to conclude the real OWS people fled this site long ago, an now its only occupied by the curious, its been a good ride.
Still would like to know about 'uptopia' the only thing I ever see here is a desire of one party to steal another party's money and well that is really an old ameriKKKan phenomenon that is quite boring.
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Like you zsp ( zionist sock puppet ) I'm glad you read the content and message, and given that both me & you live in uptopia, and have actually seen the world outside of HELL ( north america ). Let's continue the debate me & you? What would a post OWS uptopia look like? I would like a positive but from day one my feeling is that OWS is really about Orwellian re-distribution of power by a few people to control the masses not unlike any of the most ugly aspects of Stalin years ago. But let's not discuss the ugly, lets discuss where and how man might be happy in the post-usdollar world that is coming our way.
You write like crap, but you make a good point. I live in Bali, and yes, it's quite communal in some parts and some people can and do live off the land. The idea of direct democracy that was brought to OWS via David Graeber's anarchist influences from last century Spanish anarchies might work in a farm land context, but I have great difficulty imagining it in a city. Indeed, socialism has always worked best in rural areas.
Thanks, thraymaque english is not my language. I too live in Uptopia already, and have plenty to eat and so all my neighbors, the biggest problem in life is deciding what to cook. I never go shopping, never go to the mall, and never drive a car. I think your really the only guy on this site that has a heart all others seem to be right-wing plants to cause chaos, me thinks that the left with a heart have already fled. Thanks the comment that I write like 'shit', makes me think that you actually inferred the message and content, rather than the so called reading & writing by most here. The problem with OWS-UPTOPIA is that they want it all is far as I can see, they want an unlimited ATM card, they want the iPad, the Car, but they all think the only urban-myth that because there are super-rich that if that money is stolen our OWS clowns can live like Kings also. Me and you know the true nature of the world, we also know the hyper-velocity of money. We know that in reality all the money that OWS wants to steal by definition is already long gone. We know that these days one only has to bank in places like Malaysia which tell the IRS to go fuck itself. Thus the money is already gone, and men like me and you long to left our homes and found and made our own uptopia. I might add as far as possible from the HELL-CENTERS that the USA has created. Enjoy talking to you much, maybe someday we can go private, sounds like we both have similar thinking and we did something about it.
zsp I don't care about presentation I care about idea's and how things work.
I know how the USA works.
I see people here that know something is wrong, but can't put their finger or the mind on the problem. IMHO the problem is essentially that USA was always a prison colony, and now with 'instant communication' the convicts are riling each other up.
The MYTH for generations was that we suck, but we're the best, but that is the BIGGEST LIE, as the USA sucks, and its not even close to BEST for anything.
Any of us that have traveled everywhere in the world know there are much better places,
Rotten USA urban centers can never be fixed, not by anything,
In the USA you have 2 choices you can FLEE and be an ex-pat like ZSP here, or you can become one of them