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Forum Post: What Will OWS Do About Slavery?

Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 31, 2011, 11:45 p.m. EST by puff6962 (4052)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Slavery exists in this country. There are no defined masters, no whippings, or any slave trade....but there is slavery. Every night, about 11 million people go to bed wondering if they will be allowed to stay here tomorrow. They are often consigned to back breaking work, their children live in fear, and they have no protection from abuse.

It's called illegal immigration and it has created a system of abuse that rings of Frederick Douglas' description of his entry into a household that held no slaves. The corrupting influence of the institution is seductive. It decimates small towns (meat packers), industries (construction), and social values. It pits one man against another and it is evil.

It has become the 900 pound gorilla, the crazy uncle, that no one will talk about. We are producing an entire segment of our population that feels only loosely connected to America and it's opportunities.

The answer must be humane and consistent with the values of our country. It must speak to our better instincts and drown out the bitterness of those who view this only as a political issue.

If OWS is truly a movement dedicated to social justice, then here's a good place to start.

147 Comments

147 Comments


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[-] 5 points by Teacher (469) 13 years ago

Its not our job to solve all of the country's problems all at once. Our job is to restore Constitutional goverment and power to the people.

[-] 1 points by tympan55 (124) 13 years ago

The word, "restore," implies that we once had constitutional government and that the people once had power. Were either of those ever the case?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Democracy is a relative term. Freedom is also a relative term in the sense that all laws are moderators upon freedom.

People have had the ability in this country to decide their leaders and to amend the Constitution since our founding.

Where democracy has failed could fill an entire forum. I will simply say that our institutions have been corrupted, our people have been stupid, and we have failed in our most important civic duty....voting.

[-] 1 points by Occupier1 (19) from New York, NY 13 years ago

The Constitution is a good minimum standard and we need to protect it.

As far as US slavery goes, what if we decriminalize the migrant workers, but criminalize the employers?

[-] 0 points by electrictroy (282) 13 years ago

"It's called illegal immigration"

They should grab a Visa application form, go home, fill it out, and then wait for permission to enter the American Homeland, just as my neighbors wait for permission to enter my living room (rather than illegally enter).

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Your solutions will effect everyone in this country. Do you demand fairness for yourself but oppression for others? What are you really fighting for?

[-] -3 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Horseshit.

[-] 2 points by Teacher (469) 13 years ago

Care to explain your objection? You not a fan of the constitution or uncorrupt government?

[-] -1 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

If you want to travel fast, you go alone. If you want to travel far, you go together. We must travel fast and travel far......African Proverb.

It is our job to solve the nation's problems and it begins with recognizing the interrelationships we have with one another.

You can most easily judge a society by how it treats the least amongst them. In that respect, we are barely above Mexico.

If you want to change America, open a book, visit a migrant worker camp, see how your meat is butchered, smell a pig farm. You don't have the right to be theoretical when there are so many practical lessons before you.

We can change a great deal very quickly, but your attitude of resignation on this issue simply makes me pity you.

[-] 2 points by sudoname (1001) from Berkeley, CA 13 years ago

I see it this way: we have to concentrate on the root of the problem - that politicians simply don't care about these issues. I'm a big fan of ending corporate lobbying - maybe the "employers" of these people have lobbied congress to allow what they do? End lobbying, there's no incentive to allow slavery. At the same time, there's no incentive to allow banks to screw society over. We unite behind the solution to the root of the problem and we all win. My 2 cents.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 13 years ago

"there's no incentive to allow slavery. "

does work or starve count?

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

Work or starve is not slavery... it's freedom. How is it the Latino knows this but you do not?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

The actual reason for why so many have come to this country, and why this escalated even further in the past 12 years, is actually quite simple. NAFTA.

Ross Perot had it backwards. There was not a giant sucking sound coming from jobs being shipped to Mexico. There WAS a giant sucking sound that did occur and that was the decimation of the Mexican peasant farmer.

It is difficult to grow things in most parts of Mexico and, quite simply, we are much better at it. Corn is an ideal crop for a wide swathe of America and our farmers can dramatically underprice those in Mexico.

So, what does a young peasant do when he can't farm? He heads North, just like the sharecropper families of the dustbowl went to California.

You can't inherently blame them, they want a better life and the ability to send money back home to their families.

We must require that workers be documented but, in return, we must enforce worker safety standards and insure that anyone in this country be protected by the full authority of the law.

You can try to deport them. History books will include this endeavor with the internment of Japanese during WWII. It will look like Alabama on a grand scale. There will be meat packers who shut down, farms that produce no crops, and carnage. The greatest effect, however, will be in how we view ourselves. You cannot justly achieve an unjust objective. We will be scarred by the whole thing.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

There are other elements of this equation - as long as welfare exists we will not achieve economic balance: free housing, free medical care for life, 1400 a month for every child... decidedly more attractive than a life of abject poverty in Mexico. Immigration needs to be in proportion to our ability to employ, or, we will, sooner rather than later, be them.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

;Yes, another part of the equation. But, if illegal immigrants are treated so well, why do any of them work?

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

Well, why don't you tell me? We can simplify the question; why do males "work"?

[-] 1 points by Occupier1 (19) from New York, NY 13 years ago

oh yeah. like the only migrants who work are male.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

I was referring to males in general.

[-] 1 points by SpaghettiMonster (90) 13 years ago

Solution, stop eating so much frakking meat! I'm no vegan, but the US consumes far too much meat in my personal opinion. Maybe instead of finding more humans willing to butcher animals by the thousands, we should do away with concentration camp style butcher farms.

You're so righteously concerned about the rights of the illegal immigrants - what about the rights of those animals? We're one animal out of millions, and animals will eat animals... but the way we run those operations is reprehensible.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

What about the rights of my tomato plants? And who are you to judge the value of life, one above another?

[-] 1 points by SpaghettiMonster (90) 13 years ago

I'm no judge at all - and I agree, what of the tomato plants feelings, it could be hurting inside. Really though, I have no issues with eating meat products. Unlike some people, I see little difference between caroling humans and harvesting their flesh than I see between it being done to other creatures. Certainly the wildlife had no concerns when eating our hides when we roamed the plains.

I just dislike the practice in general, and I'm hoping science will eventually find a food substitute. We've recently begun to grow meat in the lab on very small scales - I think eventually we'll be able to grow far more nutritious meat in large scale production, which is perfectly "organic" and "natural". That way we can have the value that comes with meat eating, without the mass slaughter!

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

Well, when you start producing "vegan" in the same manner I will concede to what now appears as a rather flawed moral philosophy.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by Occupier1 (19) from New York, NY 13 years ago

You know you sound rather silly, right?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Yes, I was speaking partly in jest....partly in seriousness. The two don't mix well.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

First, your evaluation of life is philosophically corrupt - a contradiction. I would suggest to you that there is more intelligence contained within but one apple seed than there is in all of man kind. And you are absolutely incorrect in your evaluation of sensory perception.

And I don't interpret your version as "Anti-abortion." I interpret it as pro Wade vs. Roe. Wade vs. Roe, in my opinion, represents the rational limit of our tolerance.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Anything with a nervous system should not be made to feel pain.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

Pain is but a means of defense... plants are also possessed of means of sensory perception for this same purpose. So your analysis is rather shallow.

So again I must ask you, who are you to judge the value of life one over another?

If you are going to challenge the mores of the omnivore, then at least present logic in the form of "truth."

The various other aspects of this: B12 deficiency; the real life experience of those that suffer injuries (there is no pain), etc.

[-] 1 points by Teacher (469) 13 years ago

How can we change anything in any meaningful way if we don't start by reclaiming our rightful control over the republic?

[-] -1 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Do you think that Mexicans were responsible for the 2008 financial collapse?

[-] 1 points by Teacher (469) 13 years ago

No and I never suggested that they were. The question makes no sense. If we get the money out of politics, we can have a non corrupt government and start making sensible policy.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

The financial collapse did not effect working class America; they had no investments. But loss of their employment to Mexicans definitely did and it occurs all the time in all service related industry.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Would not agree with first assertion. Would agree with the second and I would say that the Chinese are essentially illegal immigrants living off site.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

China represents the full extent of corporate imperialism; it's colonial exploitation. I would also equate one to the other; both deprive us of opportunity. What then of "our" worker bees?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Ya, China is almost like we outsourced our illegal immigrants.

[-] 0 points by electrictroy (282) 13 years ago

"You can most easily judge a society by how it treats the least amongst them. In that respect, we are barely above Mexico."

The America People and their Republic do not have the ability to allow everyone to come here. It is insane to believe we should adopt such a policy.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

I don't believe the average American would survive a month in much of Mexico. We are an "extremely" tolerant society.

[-] 1 points by Occupier1 (19) from New York, NY 13 years ago

true. Mexico has some of the most draconian immigration laws in the world. try being an immigrant to Mexico from Guatemala.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

No, it's just a lot more difficult to survive there.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

Is this not because others are less tolerant of their presence?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

No, it's because Mexico is a shitty place to exist.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

Duhh... the powers that be are intolerant to the very point of demanding your non existence. If they do not like your looks, you die...

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

They wouldn't like your looks.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

And I don't like theirs (I'm exaggerating)... would you not say we are more tolerant?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

I think that we would be a curiosity to a Mexican peasant.....and then they would kill you for trying to pick up on one of the local women.

[-] 1 points by abraxas573 (8) from Kelso, WA 13 years ago

what is horseshit about that?

[-] 1 points by craigjones (5) 13 years ago

If your here illegally shouldn't living in fear make sense? Are you serious

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Your forefathers came here to not live in fear and it is very unlikely that, with current immigration law, they would have ever been allowed in.

In your case, that may have not been a bad thing.

[-] 1 points by craigjones (5) 13 years ago

they came here and went through Ellis island, came to where we live now and bought 300 acres. Cleared it with their bare hands and mules, and began to farm it. They didn't swim across the border to suck off of the taxpayer tit.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

No, they sucked off FDR's tit to get electricity, decent schools, and a national infrastructure that allowed you to bitch about how lazy a bunch of people who could work you to death are.

[-] 1 points by ronimacarroni (1089) 13 years ago

If it happens it must be in very isolated cases, cause there is no way a large corporation could get away with it.

[-] 1 points by PartyX (202) 13 years ago

What is an adult? Everyone feels there are not consequences for their own actions. America is not a haven for people who break the law; although, that is what it is becoming

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 13 years ago

This is a direct product of the monetary system.

When profits come first, people come second.

We have technologies that can automate practically all of the labor performed by illegal immigrants. However shifting society to take full advantage of such technologies would require a completely different economic system devoid of debt creation.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

There is no technology that can replicate the Mexicans fixing my neighbor's roof, mowing our yard, picking strawberries, or peeling the last bit of meat off a steer's skull so that you can eat your hamburger.

There is, however, a very fast solution to the problem of quasi-slavery in America and that is to require employers to hire equal numbers of citizens and illegal immigrants. If half the workforce of Swift foods was native, wages would have to double (not a nice place to work). If half of all strawberry pickers were born here, then you would have to significantly change the system of slavery that in endemic to this type of farming.

The reality is that many segments of our economy would shut down without illegals....so deporting them all just ain't gonna work. But, if you require a matching type system for employment, wages will reach a equilibrium....where they should have been all along.

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 13 years ago

Automation technologies :P

Housing construction (3d printing): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyOgDlUWfFE

Strawberry picking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcvhtn7I2qw

Lawn mower: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgsQVak3HP0

Food preparation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GajoPqoi9wo

Meat processing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s6VQTYN2aw

Again, we have the technology but money itself is the problem.

explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOO_AVwfZ9Q

A broader explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w

[-] 1 points by DouginJax (40) 13 years ago

Stop asking OWS to do things. What are you doing for your causes?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Writing checks.

Just read this very well balanced article and realize that I think it is important to push the rights buttons so that they become so extreme that Americans, who hopefully have not lost all empathy, are uncomfortable with the Republicans rhetoric.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-will-ows-do-about-slavery/#comment-258117

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 13 years ago

we are slave the 99% to the corportion., you taking about 11 illegal immigration the republican want them to work on there farms in there houses ,and on goverment contracts no right for them and they want the same to us

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Maybe, but we're in a better position to effect change for both them and us.

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 13 years ago

Iam on borad

[-] 1 points by SpaghettiMonster (90) 13 years ago

I'm all for a world without arbitrary borders, but how are we supposed to build a better country when it's inundated with people? Where do we draw the line? What if half of mexico decided they'd like to come to America within the period of a week?

I'm very much a person who believes in upholding laws that have rational reasons for existing. We allow immigration, but unfettered immigration is not a good idea. And if we allow 11 million people, many of which have failed to assimilate into our culture a free pass... what message does that send to those trying to immigrate legally? It really pisses me off actually... If I were to illegal immigrate to Germany, what right would I hate to feel upset if they sought to export me. These people sought a better existence, which is admirable, but they're doing it on the backs of others.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

These aren't immigrants, they're "outlaws" (they live outside our law) and invaders.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave. The best quote that I've ever heard in a movie....here, from Blade Runner.

By that definition, we are all slaves.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

I'm not possessed of such abundance that will allow me, like many, to take food off my table to feed another. If you are then you donate your money; but do not so much as even think you will volunteer mine. Because neither I or my children will be enslaved for another. Or enslaved to your compassion for another. There is no compassion here for those incapable of rising up to challenge the powers that be, as we have done, and will continue to do.

This country was not formed in fear of oppression; it was created in an effort to minimize the possibility of an abject slavery. The issue was NOT repression and oppression, it was "slavery." Because the colonial existence was very precariously balanced between freedom and slavery. It was not a race or color issue at all. And as student of history, for many years, I get tired of all this holy than thou ridiculously flawed logic and rhetoric.

[-] 1 points by JackPulliam3rd (205) 13 years ago

what about all the real actual work or be beaten slaves in Africa right now? can we help them?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Yes. Stop buying their products unless their workers are treated like human beings.

[-] 1 points by Redmist (212) from Yazd, Yazd 13 years ago

Wow you guys are solving the world's problems, any time frame in mind for OWS to topple the world's narco rings and hamas. I want in on those ops!

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Stop smoking crack in you Hummer. That would cut off the funding for both groups.

[-] 1 points by Redmist (212) from Yazd, Yazd 13 years ago

You guessed right... I do own a Hummer. lol I laughed...what were the odds you would get that right

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Now, if you can just stop smoking crack.

[-] 1 points by SirPoeticJustice (628) from New York, NY 13 years ago

This plan addresses illegal immigration by forming a free citizens college. If you can't complete it after two tries, you get deported. People ought to have the chance to come here and become Americans, but it must be through proper channels. My great grandparents had to apply through proper channels. We can make spanish a second language, but our official language is english, if you can't learn English you should get the fuck out.

http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/2011/10/2011-occupy-america-peoples-official.html

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

Funny, I only gave my children one try. And I thought that was generous.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 13 years ago

Well if that is what you strongly believe in that join OWC and protest your issues.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

I think I am doing what I can for now.

[-] 1 points by guest (68) 13 years ago

i don't think that ows should make any decisions. all decisions need to be made by the people- and those decisions need to be made by whatever people are here at the time those decisions are made.

everything must add to human rights-

ows will only bring freedom to the people- what they do with that freedom is up to them. love each other or kill each other- the people must decide.

but who are the real Americans the Indians or Mexicans that were here first or those who conquered them?

i say anyone who is here , when freedom is attained.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

So, OWS should support the rights of workers whether they were born here or not?

Should OWS support amnesty for illegal parents who have "legal" children of this country?

Should OWS protest meat packers or industrial farms that treat people as slaves?

Should illegal immigrants be allowed to unionize?

Should illegals be offered a pathway to citizenship?

[-] 1 points by guest (68) 13 years ago

ows is not going to make any laws policy's decisions. i think that ows is going to give you your freedom- what you do with that freedom is up to you. all of you.

i suggest that when ows gets much larger- 1000 times what it is today. say sept 2012- its going to be bad. stock up on food discuss with others how you want your country to be.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

OWS will not exist in two months unless is circumscribes some objectives that will gain traction with the most vanilla of Americans. It will be a movement analogous to the protesters at G12 or WTO meetings....radicals that you see on your television once a year.

You need to move your movement out of parks and into living rooms.

[-] 1 points by guest (68) 13 years ago

you are right i think the movement will go underground for 6 months- during which they will be in training for the American spring

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

There is already a pathway to citizenship. And no to all the rest.

[-] 0 points by nikka (228) 13 years ago

I think we should free the slaves.

[-] 1 points by SSJHilscher (75) from Madison, WI 13 years ago

Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Unless they're colored.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

It was a sales pitch... we needed to grow a market. Really.

[-] 1 points by SSJHilscher (75) from Madison, WI 13 years ago

Nations aren't allowed to have sales pitches. If they say it, their people just might hold them to it. No take backsies.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

Historically, it "was" a sales pitch.

[-] 1 points by beardy (282) 13 years ago

thanks for the laugh. i know lots of people who immigrated here legally, no reason that those who do so illegally should be allowed to stay here.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

but who will pick your tomatoes? who will mow your yard? who will clean your office building?

the farm, meat packing, roofing, and etc. industries would shut down tomorrow if these people were sent home.

so what is your solution?

[-] 1 points by beardy (282) 13 years ago

kick the illegals out and give those jobs to americans?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

You're going to have to pay Americans a lot of money to pick tomatoes 12 hours a day. Be careful what you wish for.

[-] 1 points by beardy (282) 13 years ago

Americans need jobs. A job isn't happy fun time. It is work. I also doubt that anyone would be forced to work 12 hour days unless they wanted to.

So, if I follow your logic, it is perfectly ok to pay illegal immigrants incredibly low wages and grant them none of the protections given to American workers. Isn't this kind of behavior that OWS is against?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

You don't watch Stephen Colbert do you?

[-] 1 points by beardy (282) 13 years ago

On occasion, just for laughs, since he is a comedian.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

He had an episode where he worked as an illegal for one day....

He also asked how many white people had ever held or kept the job that he tried.....can you guess the answer?

[-] 1 points by beardy (282) 13 years ago

I don't really understand why your argument is based on a comedian who plays a fictional character on a television show.

There is no reason why farm workers should be underpaid and no reason why illegal immigrants should be doing work that Americans can do. If Americans will not take those jobs, then the entire OWS movement is void.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Americans will fill those jobs, but not for six dollars an hour.

[-] 1 points by sassafrass (197) 13 years ago

I think what's the most frightening thing to me is that there are some people of a certain mindset who see this fact and instead of thinking "we should pay Americans more and they will do those jobs" they think: "Americans will only do those jobs if we make them desperate enough to do them for the six dollars an hour." This would be the converse of the fallacy that big businesses will raise wages if workers find them unacceptably low-- which presumes workers have unlimited choice and can freely "shop around" for jobs with better wages. Take away jobs, take away choice, take away freedom, and the workers have to settle for as little as business wants to pay them. This is why I am honing in on any political-economic policy or policy proposal or platform or ideology or tidbit that indicates to me that Americans are being conditioned to be the new "Mexican" labor force ("and we'll like it!"). This is the main danger we face-- the policymakers who see our situation in that light of how much they can squeeze out of us instead of finding ways that nobody has to be treated poorly even if the job is a "crap" job. Pay higher salaries for the "crap" jobs and they won't be so crappy anymore and people will do them without having to be under duress first. Pay lower salaries for the b.s. cushy executive frou-frou jobs and maybe they'll attract less greedy people.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Yes. What I take away from your comment is this. Treating others like slaves only leads us to treat ourselves like slaves.

Union butchers in Greeley, Colorado once made a decent living and supported the town. Now, you wouldn't want to work in a meat packing factory if your life depended upon it. The conditions are atrocious and the pay is barely enough to feed your family on.

[-] 1 points by beardy (282) 13 years ago

So it is ok for some company to not pay people minimum wage?

Forum won't let me reply, but I live on planet earth. I am wondering where you are from, since there it is ok to take advantage of migrant workers while at the same time condemning corporations for not paying its workers more.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

What planet do you live on?

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

I actually know white women who are riding the backs of those tractors... planting 12 hours a day, 7 days a week.... and they are expected to accept sub par wages due to migrant labor. So it's not fair to say that we would not take those jobs - many would for the opportunity to learn about farming.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

They also pick the crop...

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Why aren't those same women helping to pick the crops?

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

There are no American tomatoes left to pick. Most of our growers are gone due to cheaper imports from South America.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Not true.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

Well then perhaps you should look at CA. They've lost 250,000 (over half) of their 450,000 their agricultural jobs to Colombian imports.

[-] 0 points by electrictroy (282) 13 years ago

"It's called illegal immigration"

They should grab a Visa application form, go home, fill it out, and then wait for permission to enter the American Homeland, just as my neighbors wait for permission to enter my American living room (rather than just bust their way in).

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Then stop eating the hot dogs they make for you, the tomatoes they pick for you, the yards they mow for you....and, until you do, treat them as human beings deserving of the right not to live in fear.

[-] 0 points by electrictroy (282) 13 years ago

"Then stop eating the hot dogs they make for you, the tomatoes they pick for you, the yards they mow for you...."

I did stop.

Long ago.

Stop making false assumptions about people you've never met. Most of the products I consume are grown locally by Amish-americans, or imported from overseas (like iPhones). I don't have any products manufactured by trespassing persons.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

They are enslaved for a reason: they enter faster than assimilation, education, or economy will permit. (Mr Gorbachev, rebuild that wall.)

Slavery, much like freedom, arrives by way of degree - even so, very poor choice of words here...

The problem with all of you is that you are possessed of too many conflicting ideologies. You cannot entertain prosperity while we outsource jobs and import labor; you cannot encourage freedom and seek to limit or regulate behavior; you cannot embrace a humanitarian spirituality and discard religion; you cannot do all manner of drugs and then expect your new-found enlightened education to pacify addiction and poverty; we can go on and on... There is too much idealism; too little life experience.

[-] 0 points by Pope (52) 13 years ago

You should read about the repatriation of all the legal immigrants out of America in the 20s and 30s because we couldn't afford them even after they helped build the west. If that is how we treat legal aliens I say we simply enforce the law and deport them back across the border with the threat of death upon illegal return. Those 11 million shame the countless legal immigrants who came here the right way. Shame on you for portending them as slaves. They wouldn't be here if it was worse than their home country. I swear some people have their ass goggles on.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

It's going to occur again, too, if the flow is not checked. Or worse, because it's only a matter of time and another Hitler will rise to power. I do not believe, as many of you here seem to, that democracy will survive.

[-] 1 points by Pope (52) 13 years ago

I'm worried too, but we must have faith because anything else should not be welcome.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

On it's present course, and I'm not speaking merely of economics here, it cannot last.

[-] 1 points by Pope (52) 13 years ago

Care to xplain why?

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

Because it is an evolutionary machine... that will not permit of falsehood in the form of philosophical solution.

[-] 1 points by Pope (52) 13 years ago

So you're saying there isn't or won't be enough support to keep it around?

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

What I am saying is that the evolutionary forces of desire, which guide the communal creature which is us, are capable of only producing one form of government and that is the militaristic dictatorship. The forces of desire that served to create America as the anomaly are gradually being discarded as no longer necessary (on this very same evolutionary scale), but when all eventually cease to exist, democracy will fail. America cannot survive.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

All what people, who were here illegally, were deported?

Were they truly here illegally? Do you think that it was right? Why were they deported whereas millions (over 20% of the population) of eastern and central european immigrants were allowed to stay here unnaturalized?

Is you argument that, because we have fucked over people in the past, it justifies us doing it again?

You are a uniquely stupid person on this forum.

[-] 1 points by Pope (52) 13 years ago

They were 'legal' as I said in my post. In the late 1800s and early 1900s America sought immigrants to help build the infrastructure of the west. When the great depression hit they sent them packing back home and took all their land back because they weren't American citizens by birthright. It wasn't fair to the people who were. My argument is to simply enforce the law and I was giving an example of how bad the government really can be when people on here bitch and moan about having it better than most countries in the world. Our country is full of whiners that want everything but yet don't want to put forth any effort. You want to legalize millions of illegal immigrants because you feel sorry for them then you pay for their social welfare programs because I'm not. Get a J O B and an education bub.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

Legal is a means of checking flow and ensuring assimilation. Our legal immigration must be checked also. And we needed tightened security to our north.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

I have never seen a lazy Mexican and I'm retired.

[-] 1 points by Pope (52) 13 years ago

That's funny I didn't even mention nationality but yes some of them were Mexicans. I worked for a tree removal company when I was 18 and we were removing trees clogging a river in NC by hand in February. There were only five of us and we were chest deep in water all day working with chainsaws. The co-owner went out at lunch one day and hooked up with a group of fresh illegals from Mexico. There were five of them and he was willing to pay each of them $20 a day which was only a third of what I was making. Anyhow, they showed up the next day and struggled with the work then went to lunch and never came back. I also work in a federal prison and see plenty of lazy Mexicans.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

There's a reason the African was prized by the European over the indigenous population. And a reason that Mexicans chose not to populate the southern US when invited to do so by their government.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

They probably found better jobs than the one you had. Would you work for 20 dollars a day in the conditions you describe? Doesn't that somewhat lend support to my thesis?

[-] 1 points by Pope (52) 13 years ago

If I was them I would. It was obviously better than what they had in Mexico.

[-] 1 points by Redmist (212) from Yazd, Yazd 13 years ago

They do it all the time for much less in Mexico...puffery

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

No.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

Yup, that's my argument.

[-] 0 points by gr57 (457) 13 years ago

ya. becuase we don't already have a system of legal migration to this country, support the people who broke the law to cut in front of the lines

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Let them all in, particularly the engineers. The best way to shorten the line is to speed it up.

[-] 0 points by gr57 (457) 13 years ago

The engineers aren't hear illegally. Everyone woth more than labor is here ligitly.

[-] 0 points by roloff (244) 13 years ago

Very bad analogy, and would be considered an insulting comparison to actual slaves. This is like comparing Jews in the holocaust to white collar criminals in a federal prison.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Before you say that, put down your apple picked by an illegal and read this:

http://www.gourmet.com/foodpolitics/2009/03/politics-of-the-plate-tomato-slaves-follow-up

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Tell that to strawberry pickers.

[-] 0 points by Frankie (733) 13 years ago

Hey, I worked as a strawberry picker! lol

It wasn't that bad but I was doing other stuff on the same farm too so it wasn't full time. I've had worse jobs.

[-] 0 points by roloff (244) 13 years ago

Yeah I forgot there is someone going to send them and their whole families into a gas chamber and kill them after they are done picking. Your a moron. No comparison, and obviously no logic on your part.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.....from Bladerunner.

Have you ever lived in fear?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

We didn't gas slaves. The analogy is correct because we have seen nothing like this since slavery.....and, people need to think about this one. I have to wait 55 seconds, so I'll say this as well. Can you imagine what it is like for someone who traveled a thousand miles to get here, who has never seen snow, who has no protection under the law, and who does not speak the language, to find work here? Can't you just predict the cottage industry that would (and has) developed to lasso these individuals?

It reminds me of Upton Sinclair's, The Jungle. The only good thing about the political debate on illegal immigration is that it has highlighted how hard it is for these people, irregardless of where they came from, and whether their treatment is consistent with our values as a nation.

[-] 0 points by roloff (244) 13 years ago

The jews during the holocaust weren't slaves? MORON

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

My Lord, are you worth saving?

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

Slavery existed in Africa under the Muslim clerics well into the 1920s... it also existed here in the form of child labor.

Have you ever looked at the history of the English chimney sweep? I mean, we can go on and on... the subject of slavery is huge. But the Mexican by comparison is treated rather well.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

That's moral relativism and it's an evil rationale.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

Well your suggestion that the Mexican is enslaved in America is also a moral relativism; that's the point. And it does not pass the test against a backdrop of tens of thousands of years...

No populace anywhere can exist without it's proletariat - it's merely a question of how we define the slots that they occupy.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." ~ Mahatma Ghandi

"Any society, any nation, is judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members -- the last, the least, the littlest." ~Cardinal Roger Mahony, In a 1998 letter, Creating a Culture of Life

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 13 years ago

America has always been intent on absorbing and deciphering all manner of philosophy. The world pales in light of our own...