Forum Post: What we really need is another Great Depression !
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 14, 2011, 1:57 p.m. EST by FriendlyObserverA
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things just are not bad enough right now for enough people to step out and demand change ..
Thomas Jefferson , after/during visiting France came to the realization that if you create too much abject poverty there will be a revolution. So his solution was to give the poor enough to survive so they won't revolt.
I have to question his motives on this.
FriendlyObserverA, what you really need is a brain. Even half a brain.
Do you think insults are the best way for humanity? Perhaps raising the consciousness from the emotions (sentimental reactivity) to the mind level can be more productive?
Been there, done that with FriendlyObserverA.
He has never posted any evidence in support f his utterly inane suppositions. In the end he deletes his own posts when there is no ice left to stand on.
So now I take another approach.
Like all issues - alcoholism, addiction, etc. You must hit bottom before you can recover. This principle hurts, and the withdrawal, or depression must take place. It will happen, this economy cannot mathematically sustain. The interest on the debt is the problem, and can NEVER be paid. It was a setup, and those that set it up in 1933 figured we would change our ways. If no either way they are dead now. We inherited the mess and did not change. We will suffer the consequences.
while it's true what he says, i certainly wouldn't want change at that cost.
Krugman from the NYTimes just did an editorial this week calling this "recession" a depression. He did so to see if it would motivate people to call for some really serious action on the current dismal economic climate. I don't think it worked.
Krugman is an unpatriotic girlie man who tucks his P-thing and admires herself in the mirror.
as it turns out the depression back in the 30's had people stealing to feed their families ..and be imprisoned for it.. we are no where near a depression by definition.
Best book to read on the Great Depression, "Hard Times: An Oral History of the Great Depression" by Studs Terkel. An excellent eyewitness account of what was happening to many Americans during that time. Americans like you and me today.
People in the 1930's didn't have credit cards or anywhere near the levels of personal debt/credit we carry now.
A depression is baked in the cake - it's just a matter of time
Only if we stay on present course.
Nope, it can't be avoided. It's the nature of bubble collapses.
It's a man made device. It has no nature.
I am not an advocate of the worse the better. You have to be pretty mean spirited to advocate that and should probably re-examine your values. Most economists are predicting that the crisis is systemic and things are going to get worse as are nearly all climate scientists, but we don't have to wish for it. If anything we should be organizing, protesting the injustices that exist and celebrating the fact that things aren't worse.
You have obviously never been at the bottom. If you advocate remaining status quo.
I have been broke. I have been unemployed, I have been homeless, I have worked at minimum wage jobs and for less, but my personal circumstances are not at issue here nor should they be, Nor should anyone elses for that matter, It is also not the case that I am advocating the status quo nor did I say anything like that, Obviously we need to end poverty, homelessnes, unemployment and all other manifestations of the class rule of the 1%, Leaving aside what strikes me as the moral question of "the worse the better," the fact is nobody ever rebelled out of a sense of hopelessness and there is nothing that fosters hopelessness more that becoming unemployed or homeless or long term unemployment or homelessness, There are a lot of things that can give people hope, but becoming unemployed or homeless or being unemployed or homeless is not one of them,
In 10 months in 1937 a half a million workers violated property rights and occupied their work places, Back then they called them sit down strikes, In coordination with that, at the same time, 5 million workers organized themselves into industrial unions, I raise this because this did not happen in the depths of the Great Depression, It happened when the recovery was just beginning, however weekly, The point is, it was that recovery, however weak, that gave people the hope to begin to organize themselves and act on their own behalf,
There are many other examples, A very small one was at occupations everywhere which attracted the chronically homeless where they experienced a sense of community and as a result real, substantive behavioral change and a genuine sense of solidarity,
Hope comes from many sources, but without it people have no sense of solidarity and tend to see things as a war or each against all not an opportunity for solidarity with their fellow human beings,
The American revolution was not spontaneous. It was after a long list of attempts to make change that was refused by king g3. You can read the list at the bottom of the declaration of independence. So yes rebellion does come out of hopelessness.
But the main problem for those in trouble is convincing those with the ability to help to actually help. Most people will look the other way until the problem comes to their doorstep. There are many examples of this. But in the example of the American revolution it took a breaking point which resulted in long over due change. It's a terrible way to achieve positive change. But none the less history certainly teaches us change is brought about by revolution.
There were many moments of despair during the revolutionary war, moments when Washington knew that he needed a victory, however small, to restore hope or else if a sense of hopelessness overwhelmed the people and especially the Continental Army the revolution was probably lost, The difference between victory or defeat was hope,
In terms of the grievances that led up to the revolution, nobody would have moved on them out of a sense of hopelessness, People are not moved to solidarity by hopelessness. Hopelessness leads only to a sense of mistrust of everyone and everything including people you see who are in a situation similar to your own such as homelessness, What moves people to solidarity is the belief that another world is possible, That is there hope and without that belief, without that hope there is really no reason for them to move in solidarity about anything, And that is what motivated the American revolutionaries, not hopelessness, but the belief, the hope that another world is possible. Indeed the politics of revolution are the politics of hope, not the politics of despair,
Without hopelessness there would have been no revolution. In most historic examples it was hopelessness that led to the revolution. With a spark of hope.
The current economic condition can only get worse whether it's hoped for or not. Capitalism through cause and effect always breaks down, IMO, that is where we are at now. In the bible the story of Joseph and his rise to power, which occurs more by chance and deception than hard work or intelligence, illustrates how this works. If you read the story you see how those at top of pyramid progressively end up with more of everyones wealth. By the end of the story the masses are enslaved to pharaoh and Joseph. In the bible the answer is the year of jubilee, when all debts are forgiven every 50 years. But that is not a part of any of today's religions, where instead we see it preached that we should take much more than we give. So, IMO, we are now in god's wine press where the bottom 10 -20% are trodden under foot and left to fend for themselves. But, today's 20% will be tomorrows 30-40%, just like in the game of monopoly.
The hope is that another world, a better world, is possible, not that this system can be redeemed, I would agree with most economists that the crises we face are systemic and not cyclical and as such unlikely to get better, but that is no reason to hope that they get worse, To not wish that they get worse is not to identify with the status quo, On the contrary it is to show empathy and solidarity with those most likely to be victimized by such a down turn,
I am not an economist but one of many big flaws with our system is as you say systemic, but this flaw is cyclical as well. The system only works when the human element is removed, when everyone competes on equal ground, but when one individual is willing to kill millions to increase his wealth & standing and another man is not even willing to be rude to another to increase his, It doesn't take much imagination to figure out who will rise to the top of pyramid, so in that sense it is just like cream rising to top, it will always break down and therefore cyclical as well. In fact, I will go one step further and suggest that your standing on the social pyramid is a reflection of how much more you are willing to take than give. Btw, I certainly would never wish for anybody's hardship. I do see a better world coming, we are just now waking up and it is time to get everyone else up too.
Is this civilization ?
With all our great intelligence we still haven't overcome unfairness.
At every turn we are faced with a choice, do I do what is best for me or do I do what is best for we. There are fewer and fewer people that weigh their decisions carefully and make logical balanced decisions. instead it's me right now all the time. Our society suffers from an acute case of narcissism.
And that's exactly what we need to change
The description you present might be true--- economic hardship can lead to uprising.
However, your prescription following it is just terrible.
Why on earth would we want to deliberately cause hardship to ourselves and our families? You demonstrate the same kind of anti-social Machiavellian thinking as a politician or wall st banker.
obviously you have misunderstood.
You could just vote Republican, any true Marxist would.
If this is a depression, why are retail sales so high? Why are airlines filled to te brim? Malls are jammed, football games are sold out. You can't get a reservation at a restaurant for New Years.
And millions have lost their homes. But why spoil the fun.
[Removed]
The LaRouche Movement - constructive ideas - no free trade, for protectionism!
http://www.larouchepac.org
We really need 5 great depresions, three recessions, a mild recovery and good drugs.
Jefferson never went to France. And secondly, it was Franklin who said that quote and you said it wrong he said "Poverty is the failure of the poor, until poverty is more then the rich."
He ment that poverty is the poor's fault until their is a majority of people in poverty! Then something has gone wrong.
Jefferson was in France from 1784 - 1789
Jefferson lived in France five years ... 84-89 .. during the time the constituion was being drafted in America.. I think he was intentionally sent there while this was being done .. so he could not "interfere with its deviousness.. Jefferson was deeply upset with the Constitution.
You don't need to wish it OP. That's were we're heading.
What you should wish for is for a republican to get elected and inherit this shitty economy so people will get their heads out their ass.
I really was not wishing it .. but quite the opposite .. bringing it to attention as to the seriousness of the situation we are in .. to prevent it .. a bit of reverse psychology perhaps.
Jefferson never went to france. He died having only been to the US and England.
Jefferson was in France from 1784-1789.
We're already in a Great Depression. The government and consequently the MSM aren't allowed to use the 'D' word though. It's verboten!
I thought there was another fall to come ?
Oh, yeah. In a lot of ways, things may get worse than they were in the '30's.
we haven't come close to what they experienced .. I seen video of line ups to soup kitchens .. we ain't there yet .. are we ?
We're nowhere near the bottom yet. During the '30's there was, I believe a 25% unemployment rate. They didn't have some of the safeguards we have like food stamps, etc. so our Depression will be different than theirs. They show those soup kitchen lines a lot when speaking of those times so that's what we think of when we speak about the '30's. In the '30's my mom didn't even realize it was a Depression. Her father worked for the railroad, an excellent job back in those days, so they were able to weather the storm (seven kids to feed!). My dad on the other hand, lived in one of those 'Hoovervilles' on the Mississippi riverfront in downtown St. Louis for a time. Nothing but a wooden shack. His father did five years in prison for armed robbery trying to feed the family. Interesting contrast, eh?
our unemployment and underemployment are at those levels. the touted numbers are goosed.
Agreed. The 'official' numbers are around 9% but I'm sure they're at least twice that.
yes sir , thanks for sharing ..
got food stamps now. no unemployment lines either. got EFT (electronic funds).
Stockpile whiskey, cigars and ammo....be ready.
Oh yeah. That's the solution. Until you run out of ammo.
Ouch. We don't want another Great Depression! If there had not been one, then Japan would never have gone back to its traditional ways and invaded China, for example. The Great Depression was actually seen by Japan at the time as a complete collapse of European/American values which they were trying to follow.
Jefferson was quite correct of course. All people need a certain standard of living. If not, they have the right to use force. Every leader with half a brain knows that.
My Grandfather would get so discouraged with the way the government did things and the way people digressed in the way they treated each other that your posts statement is what used to come out of his mouth !
He said that when you have to start from scratch you treat people as equals or your betters or you wouldn't go far .
He lived through the depression .
Just look how people treat each other today and how the government treats the people !
I agree with him and you !
yes you and your grandfather are right .. I had not even considered .. with all the focus on finding solutions .. that we really have no respect left for each other .
thanks for your comment.
That wonderful. The reason they called it the depression was because people were actually depressed and killed themselves. So you're advocating suicide in pursuit of want you want.
That's not why they called it the Great Depression.
Actually you're right about the name but people did kill themselves because they became depressed.
Be easy on kingscrossection. He is a 12 yo kid going to public school. Don't expect him to know anything.
Oh Ok. NP!
Yup and I like me some baby killing too.
I do agree with your first line even though we are already in one, deeper would bring decisive action. I think you may have taken the second part out of context and twisted it a bit.
@friendlyobserverA....you said "Thomas Jefferson , after/during visiting France came to the realization that if you create too much abject poverty there will be a revolution".
What is your source for this realization by Thomas Jefferson.
I used to listen to " the Thomas Jefferson hour" portrayed by Clay Jenkinson. I learned a great deal from there as a source.
@FriendlyObserverA.....You made Thomas Jefferson sound like a person who didn't give a shit about the poor. I refuse to believe this without a source.
yes I said I question his motive ..
It was quite clear to my understanding his motive was to prevent revolt.. it does look bad on Mr J .. I would have hoped his concern was for the welfare of the poor ..
Funny how you delete so many posts after I debunk them.
FriendlyObserverA - You talking out of your hat again?
You deleted all of your post in your Sales profit is the root cause of this current economic crisis thread and failed to pony up any supporting sources at all.
It's impossible to take any of your nonsense seriously.
[Deleted]
Too bad for you then. I will call your bullshit out every time I see it.
@FriendlyObserverA...........Would you mind giving up your source for this out right lie......And don't say it was a long forgotten radio show....Your being dishonest.
Abject poverty causes revolution. This was one of Jeffersons strongest arguments. The motive to reduce poverty is quite clear .. "to avoid revolution".
@FriendlyObserverA.........He was making an observation, in making an observation you only observe and give your opinion, that doesn't make it your policy. Goddamn that's all you have.
what more do you need ?
Jefferson strongly argued poverty will lead to revolution.
his motive was to prevent revolution .
@FriendlyObserverA.....That is only your opinion, and they are like noses everyone has one...
it may be my opinion ..but it sure looks like Jeffersons motive.
@FriendlyObserverA...Again your opinion just doesn't amount to much.
Jefferson was afraid if citizens were taxed to death they would revolt. Aristocrats were afraid if the poor had too much wealth they would not work.
@FriendlyObserverA ...Jefferson was not an Aristocrat.
Napoleon was the greatest man in those times. He fought the fight for equality against an enemy deeply entrenched. And on the enemies grounds. Eventually Napoleon was defeated at waterloo. But it took the treachery if three armies to bring him down. mr Jefferson did not help. But he bought the lousiana purchase quite readily. Don't speak to me about how great Jefferson was. He was nothing.
@FriendlyObserverA.............Your a troll, this conversation is over.
Don't fret too much or too long about the possibility of another Great Depression because with the retrenching baby boomers, who constitute 37% of the 67% consumer spending GDP, that phenomenon is imminent?
I was kinda playing the devils advocate .. wasn't wishing for anything bad to happen.. just setting up a point I was trying to make.
Acknowledged.
do you really believe its imminence
Consider these facts:
Consumer spending represents 67% of our GDP. The boomers, now retrenching, constitute 32-37% of that 67%. That is a big hit. Corporate America has known this scenario for 40 years and that explains the reason for their seizing upon the new markets in China. The lack of future growth may also explain Corp. America's cash hoarding, which, in turn, explains the curb on hiring. Why hire when there is no meaningful domestic growth? I also understand that Corp. America is refusing to bring their cash profits home from China so that they can avoid U.S. income tax.
Even after the retrenchment, boomer spending will not go to discretionary items but to medical which is not exactly a growth builder.
Medicaid will ascend greatly. GAO Walker warned us of this happening.
Lastly, SS will go from 3 in, 1 out, to 1 in, 3 out. Hopefully, the SS fund is intact but, if not, holy cow. D-day has arrived on this front. GAO Walker said the SS fund was not a problem. We'll see.
Take a look at the federal budget projections through 2019. All deficits, with the lowest at approximate $550 billion. What does this forebode? Borrowing. How long can interest remain so low thereby saving us even greater anguish? What if rates rise thereby causing even greater interest expense? Rising rates can attract investments to the government at the expense of business since business cannot afford the interest expense. Hence, business cuts back on hiring.
Lastly, what about contingencies? Another Katrina, Iraq war, Afghan war? All too often, contingencies become reality!
We are now experiencing an anomaly without precedent: the retrenching of the baby boomers.
I sincerely hope that I am wrong.
well .. not looking so good ..
a couple things ..
if they forsaw s omuch of this ..why haven't they done something ? it seems some of us are going to be "thrown under the bus"
the SS is difficult in a couple ways .. the baby boomers .. plus life expectancy has increased greatly .. have they discussed increasing retirement age .. it would be fair .. I think , at least 2-3 years ..
also I made this point elsewhere , we have an increased capacity to produce with all of our technology ie. robotics .. why hasn't this lowered retirement age .. ?
and last question .. who controls fed interest rates .. ? the government would never raise rates on themself .. would they ?
we haven't even discussed what is happening in Europe .. and how we will be affected.. ?
Yes all the fundamental divisions and entrenched political and economic key factors leading to the Great Depression are now currently in place and causing the same results but in a slower manner because of the existing saftey nets America currently has in place at the Federal, State and local levels and the Rights solution is to remove all those safety nets and allow the Rich to continue stealing; lying, and bribing our Government --- So YES if nothing changes we are heading into a serious World Depression; Revolution and most likely major Regional Wars!
whats stopping us from doing the right thing ?
A broken corrupt ssystem! Corporations are not people and $$$ does not equal free speech.
Need a 28th Ammendment overturning Citizens United and banning corporate money from politics!
well I personally do not want any part in such conspiracy .. accusing the government of .....false dealings .. I see no evidence .. other than fair play
Change is fine. It's the kind of change you are looking for is the issue. For instance. OWS is a communist movement (just look at the imagery being used) That will be rejected by Amercans. You are in the extreme minority. So it sounds like you want the economy to get worse not better? That's brilliant!
Capitalism is the enemy within. It lives amongst us With us. It has become us. It will destroy us
so it is settled. you are a communist.
You've been brainwashed. You defend your own enemy.
you make the sense of a 3 year old. just like they want you - a dumbed down flock of sheep. Thank your left wing professors - they did a real number on you lol!
It's called looking at contrast.
yes the worse things get the more powerful OWS becomes no doubt about that.
Hence the welfare system...
Your in luck!
I've always said what this movement needs is dead babies, those dead kids at Kent state did more for the anti-war movement than anything before or since. Nothing riles up mom and pop middle America like the sight of soldiers or cops killing children.
Sure we tried a couple of times to make it happen but these protestors today just aren't shit compared to the hard asses of the 60s, oh, for the days when giants walked the land!
there are some pretty hard core protestors over in the middle east.. but their living conditions were quite apalling ... it's a crazy time we live in .. I would like to see some changes here in the best part of the world .. peaceful assembly .. the engineers cut the balls off any chance of protest with that idea.
Sure, those guys in the ME are hard ass but they don't do nuance. Every decent movement needs dead babies but they don't understand the establishment is supposed to off the babies not the protestors!
They get out there and lob some rockets which generates plenty of dead babies and then they can't understand why nobody likes them. Talk about unclear on the concept!
I hear you .. but I've also been hearing the government military has been using sniper power .. to take out protestors .. and children.. it's a pretty bad scene ..
this movement over here .. I really can not predict .. the motivators have not given up .. they keep setting dates for another gathering here and there .. but somehow the fizz has gone out of any hope for results.
I have to question why you want to ruin the lives of thousands perhaps millions of people when all we really need to do is go back to our conservative roots when America was strong. Like after WW2.
The top personal tax rate after WW2 was 92%. (http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=213)
The corporate tax rate after WW2 was as high as 52%. (http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/Content/PDF/corporate_historical_bracket.pdf)
Biggest growth the US has ever seen, also built a nationwide infrastructure and had an absolutely BOOMING middle class.
well if you consider what happened prior to world war 2 , than you may realize the only way to get there is through a great depression , a great war , and than finally to the environment you wish to have..
lagarde at the IMF publicly talked about the possibility of war due to the Euro debt issues and failure of a resolution.
The depression had nothing to do with it. Things weren't improving at all until we actually went to war, and had to rely on ourselves.
GNP grew 11% in 1934, 9% in 1935, 14% in 1936.
"Things weren't improving at all"
Yeah take everything I say literally dimwit. Those numbers weren't near good enough to get us out of the depression. the war is what finally pulled us out cause we put people to work. industrialized.
UR right the Republican convinced FDR to cut spending in 1937, and a recession occurred, so FDR had to start over with the stimulus.
Stimulus can suck my balls. The government probably needed to fund money into the economy, but I don't agree with Obama stuffing all of his masters full of money, while leaving others out to try. And it almost seems like his criteria for spending was, did the company REALLY screw up. Like why would you invest billions in tax payer dollars in companies that can't even function? Why not use bailout money to reward the strong companies, so those strong companies in turn could hire some people from those failing, weak companies that needed to die off. Why he wanted to force the weakest companies to the top of the food chain, while others had fought there way to the top and become truly strong, I will never know.
...did the depression have anything to do with starting the war ?
it's a horrible cycle , and honestly do not wish to repeat any of it .. not many do .. but if we don't find solutions .. we may spiral continually downward ..this sort of thing feeds on itself..
um no? Japan and Germany had to do with the war. The Depression, not so much.
were they not suffering from depression .. it was the " Great Depression" , assuming world wide ..
and if the war 2 was such a money maker , why were the americans staying out of it so long ..? surely there was a great incentive to participate .. with all that wealth to be made .. hard for any red blooded american dream to resist .. money money money
God, you are such a fool. You take everything I say and everything that happened and twist it to suit your own twisted point of view.
were Japan and Germany not included in the Great Depression ?
was it not the Jewsih people who held the wealth and because of this hated .. by everyone .. and thus eliminated .. "the final solution" .. it was about economics and depression .. where you will find the origins of WW2. so there is no twist .. just looking deeper is all
You are right to say the Jewish held much of the wealth... in Europe. America's depression was rooted in the stock market crash and the banks overextending themselves
You question his motives? It's called staying in power. If it were not for the handouts in this country, we would have gone to war with each other years ago. And the illegals wouldn't even THINK about crossing our border.
Be careful what you wish for. If there is an economic collapse, you and your OWS buddies will end up like the Donner Party.
Excuse me? "you and your OWS buddies"? This would also, and I don't mind puncturing your balloon here, include you too. All of any money you have stashed away in banks or "saved" on your credit cards would vanish. You would end up like almost all Americans will if we get another great depression. Unfortunately for us, the ones that do "survive" another great depression will be assholes like Trump, Bloomberg, the Waltons, oil sheikhs and so on. No one will be spared except for the 1%. And even they will lose a few billion here and there but they won't miss it because they have so much money now.
Yes, you guys are the least prepared... And I'm not talking about money.