Forum Post: What SPECIFICALLY did Wall Street do?
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 8, 2011, 11:29 a.m. EST by jalan
(108)
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OK - let's get past the glowing rhetorically nonsense that means nothing specific. What SPECIFICALLY did Wall Street do to you?
The Socialization of “Big Finance” Losses and the Privatization of Its Gains
How It's Done:
There’s no doubt that the financial instruments used in transactions causing the above may be complex (not always) and unless one is working with them on a daily basis or studying them it should not be expected that one would understand them quickly. Nevertheless, do not be fooled by their complexity as the resulting transaction usually boils down to this:
The bankers/traders bet heavily that an event, which they have statistically, not realistically, calculated (using imperfect and heavily criticized financial models) as highly unlikely to occur. Because the risk of the event occurring and creating a loss is deemed highly unlikely by these “false-experts”, the parties (bankers/traders) to the transaction are required to put up very little money to secure the transaction. However, if the event that the bankers/traders assume will not occur does in fact occur, then the losses from the transaction will dwarf by multiples the amount of money the bankers/traders have and they will go bust. The bankers/traders are fully aware, before entering the transaction, of these potential losses that society will have to cover but ignore them, however, because of their perceived improbability. Because the negative events that cause these transactions to create catastrophic losses are statistically improbable, these transactions can go on for years without any hiccups and will fool the traders/bankers and regulators into believing they are “good trades”. For those years, while the going is good, the bankers/traders will be paid large bonuses for these “good trades” and these charlatans (bankers/traders) will be celebrated and labeled by society as talented or geniuses (bolstered by their Harvard and Wharton MBAs). Then, as it always does in financial markets (see reflexivity*), the improbable event occurs. The transactions suffer catastrophic losses beyond the ability of the bankers/traders to cover and society has to step in and cover the loss or else “the economy will collapse” (sound familiar?). Meanwhile the bankers/traders keep all of their bonus money and homes in Greenwich, Darien, Westport, New Canaan, Scarsdale, etc. (you get the idea – sorry for keeping it short, Westchester ) and defend their actions by stating that “their models predicted that the event was highly unlikely to happen” or “how could we have known that event was going to happen” or even better, “we’re doing God’s work”. Needless to say, it is hypocritical that pro-capitalists (bankers/traders) engage in, defend and lobby for a behavior that causes losses to be socialized and gains privatized and which is certainly not what free market capitalism is about.
*It’s argued that, theoretically, the act of placing a trade in the financial markets will affect the very probabilities you calculated before placing the trade, often in a way unfavorable to the trade you placed.
We need to expand to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. and take our message to President Obama! Congress also needs to hear us. They both have the power to change things. Things that they created
I agree we're accountable. I agree we helped create some of the problem by being suckered into or even not speaking up about a lot of what's gone down in the past 10 years. But isn't the purpose of the Occupy movement and the emergence of the 99% all about regaining the voice that lets us live up to our accountabilities?
What SPECIFICALLY did the Nazi party do?? What SPECIFICALLY did the institution of slavery do?? What SPECIFICALLY makes you think that creating a gross imbalance of power in democracy is acceptable??
I came to this site Friday night to offer my assistance as a non-profit organizer. I can do basic coding of web pages, accounting, and other functions.
Mainly I wanted to get some sanitation facilities out to Zucotto (sic) park.
In a matter of about 20 minutes I found over 15 contact listings, and left vmail and email on every one of them.
24 hours later, no response. They aren't even updating the site anymore.
Where did everyone, and the "tens of thousands" http://afgj.org/?p=1765#more-1765 of dollars go?
Well, the General Assembly never was in the US, they are operating out of a hotel room somewhere in Nicaragua, and the money has been deposited in a Central American bank.
How could the people do this to our citizens, how can members of our government support this?
They have to know, it only took me 20 minutes to find out, and they had days and hundreds of people on their staffs.
I see you might have missed the fact that the banks gambled, via the futures market, with OUR money, NOT theirs. Banks INFLATED home prices as the higher the value of the home, the LARGER the loan the consumer would be liable for,
WAGES weren't driven UP, they were driven DOWN because wall st send jobs overseas, and made it impossible for us to compete, so our wages were essentially frozen or lessened over the last 30 years,
Capitalism has BECOME the problem, specifically CRONY capitalism. You know margaritac, the kind that allows GE, among others, to make 5 Billion $ and pay $0 TAX.
Or the law that lets hedge funds pay a MAXIMUM 15% tax, of course, most don't EVEN pay that after they deduct as much as they can, via the same tax laws that let GE pay NOTHING. Also, the hedge mgrs aren't PAYING SS taxes after the 1st week a pay is drawn by them, as they exceeded the threshold for wages.
The lower 98%, most of which will pay SS tax each week as they DON'T ever reach the threshold for wages to stop paying it.
Here's an article on how all st is jacking the cost of food, and costing LIVES: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,783654,00.html
How Global Investors Make Money Out of Hunger
In recent years, the financial markets have discovered the huge opportunities presented by agricultural commodities. The consequences are devastating, as speculators drive up food prices and plunge millions of people into poverty. But investors care little about the effects of their deals in the real world.
"The age of cheap food is over," predicts Knuckman, noting that this can't be such a bad thing for US citizens. "Most Americans eat too much, anyway."
Knuckman refers to the fact that the poorest of the poor can no longer pay for their food as "undesirable side effects of the market." Halima Abubakar, a 25-year-old Kenyan woman, is experiencing these supposed side effects at first hand.
Since last June alone, higher food prices have driven another 44 million people below the poverty line, reports the World Bank. These are people who must survive on less than $1.25 (€0.87) a day. More than a billion people are starving worldwide. The current famine in the Horn of Africa is not only the result of drought, civil war and corrupt officials, but is also caused by prohibitively high food prices.
///End of quotes from website.
Well margaritac, is the fact that these costs are starving people, 'an unfortunate side affect' like this wall st TRAITOR says??
Well margaritac, is that CAPITALISM, or is it genocide???
By the way, what is the Credit Score of the banks that borrowed so heavily from the US TAXPAYER?? You know, that score they use to EXTORT millions from the rest of us, yet don't have their borrowing rates raised, in fact, they are AT ZERO RIGHT NOW.
What about the credit card rates, they raised those for virtually everyone, despite how GOOD their credit was, beasue they COULD. Are they extortionists???
It's not what they did. It's what they didn't do. Therefore, although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers yourselves. Consequently, I have posted the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate Committee at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Here is a real action plan for change now:
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
Do you really think your adversity negates other peoples struggles? Should you have to live on ramen noodles for 5 years and burn your own furniture to be middle class? Should everyone have to struggle as greatly as you to live comfortable lives? Kudos to you for prospering despite your own struggles and adversity, but I don't think life should be that difficult just to be middle class. We used to be one of the most powerful nations in the world, but we are falling into mediocrity, and people are dealing with downward mobility for the first time in generations. The answer shouldn't always be work harder, I don't think the top 1% have worked harder than I have to be where they are. I think we are all struggling with a glass ceiling that seems to be lowering. Can those who think all the people on this website are left-wing hippies really never had a moment where they realize no matter how hard they work they will not be able to accomplishes everything they wanted to as a child?
Naked short selling.
Watch the 2010 OSCAR winning Documentary :INSIDE JOB
its outlines the corruption PERFECTLY. it won and oscar..
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-isnt-wall-street-in-jail-20110216
This movement is about JUSTICE for the criminal behavior on Wall St. that stole from taxpaying citizens and the government…
Not only did we BAIL-OUT the big banks, now we learn they’ve were STEALING over the last decade too.
Do you want justice also?
"Some of the nation’s biggest banks and mortgage companies have defrauded VETERANS and TAXPAYERS out of HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars by disguising ILLEGAL FEES in VETERANS’ home refinancing loans, according to a whistle-blower suit unsealed in federal court in Atlanta.
“The lawsuit accuses WELLS FARGO, BANK of AMERICA, J.P. MORGAN CHASE and GMAC Mortgage, of engaging in “a brazen scheme to defraud both our nation’s veterans and the United States treasury” of millions of dollars in connection with home loans guaranteed by the VA."
“This is a very significant case,” Patrick Burns, spokesman for the non-profit Taxpayers Against Fraud, said Tuesday. “It deals with WIDESPREAD FRAUD from VETERANS who were personally pick-pocketed for hundreds if not thousands of dollars, and the liability has been shoved on the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.”
“During the past decade, more than 1.2 MILLION of the refinanced loans made to VETERANS and their families, and up to 90 % may have been affected by the alleged fraud, according to attorneys for the plaintiffs.”
Oct. 4, 2011 - Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/suit-alleges-banks-and-mortgage-companies-cheated-veterans-and-us-taxpayers/2011/10/04/gIQATp4RLL_story.html
taxpayers BAILED-OUT the big banks in order to prevent gobal economic collapse
taxpayers learn that over the last 10 years “widespread FRAUD from WELLS FARGO, BANK of AMERICA, J.P. MORGAN CHASE and GMAC Mortgage, pick-pocketed VETERANS for millions of dollars...
the liability of this fraud has been shoved on the federal government (Dept. of Veteran Affairs).”
NOW the taxpayers have to pay to investigate this fraud!!!
ENOUGH is ENOUGH, justice is HERE… DEMOCRACY LIVES!
Hi again jalan. Since you asked. Wall Street bought and paid for the financial de-regulation that, in large part, contributed to the financial crises. Not Wall Strreets fault, they simply took advantage of the system, as all the 1% do , that buy their representation. It's just unfair to the rest of us. I am fairly certain that had it not been for de-regulation, the financial crises would not have happened. The de-regulations MOSTLY benefitted the banks. There may have been some upside to society, BUT it certainly was not worth the downside consequences that we all now suffer for. And we had LITTLE to no say in the matter. Our voices were not heard during the past 20 some odd years that this deregulation was happening. Wall Street was irresponsible, reckless, and perhaps criminal. They should have known better. They are not fragile flowers after all! They knew what they were doing. And should have very well known the dangers of it! But they found a way to rationalize it to Congress and paid Congress quite well to listen to those rationalizations. Thus, de-regulation. So, am I a little angry about that. Yes I am.
However, the root cause of this problem and many other problems, is the money in the political system.
Said another way, Wall Street is a symbol of money - connection 1 - too much money can lead to corruption - connection 2 -- money is used in our political process - connection 3 - money in the political process is corrupting.
Hope this wasn't too rhetorical!
The full "Financial Crisis Inquiry Report" can be found here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/47665915/Fcic-Final-Report-Full
Freddy and Fannie were federal agencies that were there to regulate liquidity for the housing market - they are under direct supervision of congress. The flood gates of easy credit opened up under the Clinton Administration and 7 hikes of the debt ceiling during the W Bush administration synthesized a robust economy fully engaged in war and happy in a new home. Sadly, though the USA is now paying $1.4 in interest for every $1 it takes in. The country has OVER SPENT. The major banks are complicit in this arrangement because they MAKE MONEY ON THE LOANS - who cares if it's not healthy for the economy or the people they do business with? The profit-motive is where this really gets ugly. With Congress not supervising - and I mean totally asleep - Freddy and Fannie became the King and Queen of accounting distortions letting their business appear solid. Following in line, the major lenders observed the practice and doubled it! Thus, meltdown.
“The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than an autocracy and more selfish than a bureaucracy.
IT DENOUNCES AS PUBLIC ENEMIES, ALL WHO QUESTION ITS METHODS OR THROW LIGHT UPON ITS CRIMES.
I have two great enemies, the Southern army in front of me and the Bankers in the rear. Of the two, the once at my rear is the greatest foe. Corporations hav been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money powers of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of the few, and the Republic is destroyed.”
Abe Lincoln
Nassim Taleb - 'The Banks Have Hijacked the Government' youtu.be/WkT8dFA1xNE
Are you serious? They are over seeing the biggest transfer of wealth in history (from poor to rich) and the banana republicization of this nation.
While we are pondering what wall street did to America, there is a much bigger picture. Why do you think countries in Europe are in trouble? Companies like GS sold CDOs that were backed by nothing and bet 10X times on them with credit default swaps. The countries that trusted the rating agencies and bought the crap are now in trouble. These few wall street companies have managed to bring down the entire western economy.
Now the governments want "austerity measures". This is another way of saying the tax payers will pay for the mess created by the wall street companies.
If you truely want to know Google "What did Wall Street do to to the economy" or phrases simular to that then watch all the Documenturies you can find on banking, Wall Street, The Fed, and corruption in Washington. You really need to do your own research.
Wait, are you really trying to learn something or just trolling for a argument?
You can get a free education on using Google use that phrase "did Wall Street do to America" or variations of that then find all the Documentaries you can on banking, corporations, and The Fed. I wish all Americans would wake up and ask the same question you did. That is where it all starts.
We must remember what allowed the banksters the ability to run roughshod over our economic system. The Graham-Leach-Bliley Act: "An Act To enhance competition in the financial services industry by providing a prudential framework for the affiliation of banks, securities firms, insurance companies, and other financial service providers, and for other purposes." allowed investment (casino) banking institutions, insurance companies, and commercial (retail) banking institutions to consolidate, co-mingle funds, to engage in risky investment activities, to take money from you and me to fund the injustice committed upon the citizens of, not only the United States but, in large part the world. The Commodities Futures Modernization Act allowed them to create the derivatives you hear so much about which were a major factor in the debacle which destroyed our economy. Both of these acts must be repealed within our system of government or the banks will continue to use our money to fund their gambling activities. Help me by signing the petition: http://signon.org/sign/repeal-graham-leach-bliley The Glass-Steagal act separates these two types of banking institutions to keep the gambling activities separate from commercial banking activities. (commercial banking activities are the services we, as bank customers, utilize. i.e. savings, checking, loans)
Usury (CapitalOne)
Market manipulation (oil)
Monopoly controlled of the market (Apple)
Citizens United (Campaign finance)
Criminal theft hidden by mezzanines magic (derivatives)
Conflict on interest and malpractice by high finance (GS)
Natural rights. (Taxing the arbitrarily rich)
I disagree about apple. Apple doesn't control anything. It is number 1 because other companies make crappy products.apple doesn't force people to buy. People buy apple products because they want to.
Ah, they bundled fake loans, sold them to speculators, not telling people they were toxic. They lobby both sides to take jobs away from America, bring down wages, unionizing. They promote private taxation, with hidden fees. They speculate instead of create meaningful investments. They steal money from workers by taking away their pensions, health care. They work with undemocratic countries so that they will buy our products, when they should care about democracy first. They use low wage sweat shop labor to lower wages here.
check out derivates trading, credit default swaps, and how about all of those EXCESSIVE bonues which are continually being paid(I'd like to know for what?) Wall Street is jeopardizing the viability of our national economy while demoralizing the populace at large in the process.
Wall St is the only industry that produces nothing but gets paid for it
Wall Street created the bonds and derivatives to make money off phony mortgages, they created the demand for more and more fraudulent mortgages. Then they paid off the credit rating companies to rate their bonds and derivatives AAA when they knew (this is called fraud!) they were FFF. Why did they do these dastardly needs. So the 1%ers of the Wall Street firms could make big bonuses. GREED.
Wall Street is getting to resemble more and more a big casino.
I agree
Who was it that encouraged the banks to make bad mortgages and who was backing them? Without the meddling interference in the free market by those who thought that everyone deserved a house, whether they could afford it or not, had a direct role to play in the housing bubble and it's eventual burst. Add to that the Fed's policy of easy money and low interest rates and the bubble was inevitable. The banks and financial institutions reacted to the situation and, perhaps made some lousy decisions and some got greedy.
The rules for creating a mortgage had not changed, the companies selling the mortgages simply did not follow the rules (broke the law). "I make 200,000 a year" OK, you get a million dollar mortgage. The banks and others buying these mortgages to put in their bonds and deriviteis encouraged this law breaking to make more money. GREED.
I really think you need to do a little research. I know it's popular to blame the banks, but they were definitely coerced by regulation and government interference (CRA) to loosen standards and the loans were then backed up by Fanny and Freddy. There was also the threat of further regulation if the standards were not loosened. The Fed also played a significant role in creating the bubble through easy money and artificially low interest rates. The point is that there is a lot of blame to go around and laying it solely at the feet of the banks creates a situation where this can and will happen again.
Currently, the DOJ is quietly threatening and suing banks for having tightened mortgage lending to pre-CRA standards. They have not learned the lesson. Like many of the failed liberal/progressive ideas, failure does not mean that the idea was bed, just that they didn't do enough for it to succeed.
The banks were "coerced" by the government? Laughable. So you want me to believe that the banks were such fragile flowers that they could not hold their ground in the face of the government? The same government that they have bought and paid for with their blood money? The blood money that they used also to buy and pay for their deregulation. I call it blood money because Wall Street is nothing short of criminal vipers!
Wall Street and Wall Street alone made the choice to purchase the bad loans, dice them up, spit the vile out again and call it AAA candy. Everyone loves candy! Yes, lets call it CANDY! It sells so much better that way! And look at the billions of $ we rake in! How nice for us all here on Wall Street! Never mind that the people that eat the candy will die from it. Oh, such an insignificant irrelevant point. Pay no attention at all that people eating our candy will start dying. We've got money to make here people!
Oh yes, the government "coerced" Wall Street into making billions of dollars by defrauding investors. Poor banks. Such fragile flowers they are.
I have done my homework. In every bond and/or derivative contract issued and accepted by Fanny and Freddy or any other investor, there is a clause that outlines the proper underwriting procedures necessary for mortgages to be included in the bond or derivative. The banks and other issuers knew these underwriting standards were not being met, they looked the other way, the credit rating agencies also looked the other way. They were deceiving the investor, this is called fraud. Why? GREED.
They specificaly promote greed, corrup the political proces through the financing of campaigns of candidates who in return favour policy serving their interest instead of serving the poeple, they destroy the democratic system through their constant lobbying, owning, abusing and controlling of the media, they put corporate interest and individual wealth before responsible stewardship and family values, they specificaly extort and disrupt local communities, they specificaly destroy small business, exploit natural resources, and ravage the environment.
Here here
I'm just an Independent voter. I think you need to have a chosen leader, a very strong measured person (such as Jon Stewart from The Daily Show) who can articulate your grievances and fight for you/us at rallies. Then, you need a name for your movement, as did the Tea Party who have been fairly successful. You can then mobilize voters, via social networks or TV, to vote against any politician who thinks the banks and Wall Street aren't greedy and controlling our wealth! If you don't do these things, your movement will likely fritter out. I know a good social movement when I see one. I'm 74 yrs old and have seen some of the best marches for justice. Good Luck!
Most of us prefer not to rely on the media. Some do not trust the media. Thus, the media has very little clue about what this fight is really for. We trust and rely on eachother! What better way is there to affect change?
Turn this movement into a "Voter Bloc". Try to get it to go viral through You Tube. Perhaps using a "flash mob" approach. You need to fight Wall Street/Bankers greed through the voting process. Vote out every politician who stands for the greedy entities!
Greedy entities??? What do you call a small business that is trying to expand into a middle market size business? Greed or Growth?. How do you define the difference between making reasonable amount of profit or when profit has become a metric of greed. Technically, no one should every open a business again if you are against greed. A persons desire for wealth is kinda one of the impetuses for starting a business.
Face it. We live in america and ppl come to america to get rich. Unfortunatley the rich game is over the rich won. Now its time for Presidents Obamas plan for the redistribution of wealth. Time to "RESET THE GAME"!!!!!
Face it. We live in america and ppl come to america to get rich. Unfortunatley the rich game is over the rich won. Now its time for Presidents Obamas plan for the redistribution of wealth. Time to "RESET THE GAME"!!!!!
Yes, because it is a zero sum game. Of course.
Well -- Wall Street actually did nothing. They pushed numbers around in computers and called it money. But they DID nothing.
This isn't specifically about just me, it's about America, it's about humanity. Remember Bernie Madoff, remember Enron, Lehmen Brothers, Bear Stearns? They cost Americans billions of dollars, more specifically they cost a great many public and private sector employees their pensions and retirements.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Lehmen and Bear did not do anything illegal like Madoff and Enron. Unethical? Yes. Foolish? Yes. But if it is not illegal, then it is a problem you need to take up with Congress because they are the ones who make the rules.
Or, insurance companies, or unions, or banks, or any other damned organization that pays for votes on their agenda through our elected officals
Insert campaign backers where constituents is
Jalan is correct, it should be occupy congress or DC. The problem as misterioso points out, is that we have no voice due to conflicting priorities of our politicians. The conflict is obvious: The politicians "constituents" vs the American people.
I hope someone starts that movement. We definitely need it
No. They are bought and paid for. The problem is the money. Keep your eye on the ball. The political way has been tried. The Tea Party is the political way. If it is politicians you have a problem with, there is plenty of politician hate there, encouraged by wall st.
That's the point, they are bought and paid for. That is the ball
So you dont go to the employee, you go to the boss. That aint congress.
the only thing that matters right now is CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM, unless you get the big money out of politics, no change whatsoever will occur, this should be the focus of the protests, we need to have honest politicians that work for the public before any thing else can get done, campaign finance reform (ending corporate personhood, kicking the lobbyists out of the Washington) is the perfect starting point. It really is a no brainer that this should be the one thing we can all agree on. Because unless we do this, all those other demands that people have will never be addressed, not in a millions years.
Yes
Collectively, Wall Street has overtaken our political system by buying politicians through campaign funding. For example, there are 6 lobbyist for every congressman, none of them are looking out for the best interests of the 99%. As a result, my congressional representatives at the state and federal could care less about my opinions. The only way to fight the wall street / government is through a collective effort such as #OWS.
Yes
emeflag, not campaign funding so much as manipulation. Most federal employees - as it matters to Wall St. are not subject to insider trading rules. The Investment Banks deliver them access to the markets, they get to trade based on non-public intel. Its a tango between investment banks and politicians. The IB's don't care what political party is in office so long as they are manageable. In other words, the insider trading aspect is more easily overlooked when the IBs want to smooth out regulatory issues. Our elected officials have been hijacked by Investment Banks. See you in PHX?
Even tiny Flagstaff has a #OccupyFlagstaff. I'm trying to decide how I can best contribute and take part in this spontaneous event.
Close down Wells Fargo. Run a CLOSE YOUR ACCOUNT campaign. This Thursday 10.13 is close your account day.
If you don't believe in representative change because you think that your reps are all about and paid for, then what are you advocating. Civil Disorder, Rioting?
You are putting words in my mouth. I am not advocating Civil Disorder or Rioting. Speaking for myself, I think the best approach is to collectively organize as a group to make demands. There is power in numbers. Politically this is no different then Corporations forming Industry or Trade Organizations that lobby congress. As for corporations, I would advocate boycotting corporations that are not acting socially responsible. It is amazing how quickly a corporation will change their ways if profits are threatened.
I agree voting for change through economics is effective but I believe you addressed the core problem. Those with legislative authority who are paid by our taxes should represent our interests. If we believe the power at be are bought and corrupted why are not elements of this movement preparing to run and change the status quo?
How about protest and demand that all of the money be taken out of the political process and advocate for election reform. So that our government is no longer bought and corrupted. But instead will hear all of our voices, fairly and equally. Its a little thing called democracy! However today - 1% buys their representation in governemnt, 99% are left with the crumbs.
You know I agree with you April lol. I am just advocating for the next step. If the legislature currently keeps resisting our demands and plays off partisan politics as the reason for a lack of progress. It appears that there are a great many intelligent and capable bloggers on this page that should get ready to take change to the next level and run for public office. Hopefully they can hold to their virtues long enough to be proponents of change.
I am hoping it won't take that long. If the 99% demand the change, our government will have little choice but to listen and act on it. Like pass the Fair Elections Now act.
Give it some time
If necessary
We will get our act together and change the course of this system through democratic appeal. The worst aspect of this entire crisis is that it is almost exactly the same as the Great Depression. I mean there are striking differences but, excess credit, real estate bubbles, over leveraged banks, crashing stock markets. If we just adhered to the principles we learned once before maybe we didn't have to go through this crisis again.
every company that has taken a bail out still continues to give bonuses to their top when the company didn't make money to begin with. that was our tax dollars and everyone can agree that if you needed a bailout obviously you didn't do good enough to receive a bonus. you should be content with your already high salary. now if you create billions in profits, then yes you get a bailout.
every company on wall street that cuts workers at the expense of top members getting bonuses is just plain wrong. it's not illegal. BUT when you use our tax dollars to continue this practice, that's when WE should have a say in it.
Specific enough?
Yes
Most of those companies didn't ASK for a bailout. They were forced to take them. Read much?
If you're a CEO set for life with millions of dollars and stock options, do you really care if you company fails. No, the government has to save the jobs of those people because the CEO already got his. Thanks for helping prove my point though. Think much?
Wall street continued to prosper while the 'Me' generation graduated from high school and college and found out the the world doesn't revolve around them. Now they are pissed! No idea what they want, but they are participating in something, something big and they want their damned trophies!
Madoff?
What about him? What he did is illegal and he paid with his life. The failure was in our government to detect, catch and stop it.
and what the fuck were you doing . .jerking off?
neither the fed nor the rating agencies nor the sec could tell this pillar of wall street was a fucking ponzie?
You know what you did . . you fucking Lied
The Government, The Federal Reserve and Wall street and the Rating Agencies Colluded to perpetrate a fraud of such magnitude that it has cost the world many multiples of the 50 Trillion Global GDP
Get it?
we know more than you so shut the fuck up and get in line
Wow, the lack of education is mind boggling.
For the better most part, this latest in a string of financial collapse as it's roots firmly planted in the Financial Services Modernization act signed by then President Bill Clinton.
Financial Terrorism and the American Monetary Collapse http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCazXAe8qh4
I agree with you, which is why this should be an apolitical movement.
Wall Street is not a person and therefor can not specifically do anything. You are asking the wrong question. It is the individuals behind the large investment banks who are the ones who have created moral hazard. They have privatized the gains and socialized the losses. Wall Street is simply a street where these investment banks are located. They could protest over at the Hamptons too. But where it is - is neither here nor there (no pun intended). There are a lot of good articles on MSN money by Bill Fleckenstein if you need to get caught up to speed.
Wallstreet Bankers conned my pension fund into investing in Lehman Brothers knowing full well it would collapse. My Teachers pension fund almost folded.
Wall Street is enabling Obama to impose global socialism ala George Soros who funds this false 'revolution'. The park in NYC is owned by Lehman Bros and people from the CFR... they love this.. you are their fools. The only true revolution is the tea party.
http://www.nhteapartycoalition.org/tea/2011/10/08/soros-hires-actors-to-stage-violence/
http://carfinanceuk.blogspot.com/2008/10/sub-prime-credit-crises-in-nutshell.html
Dude I am older than you, so stop with the Rush Limbaugh talking points BS. Why is nobody from AIG in jail? or Countrywide? Yes everyone should take personal responsibility. But, I give the younger generation credit because our policies from govt and from Wall Street ruined their future.
Me too. And what about the fraudulent paperwork used to kick people out of their homes? And what about the homes now, sitting collecting rats and dust while the homeless roam the streets.
the 60 minute piece last April on the robo signing was despicable. Banks forged documents because they know they are above the law
AIG executives were tried in a Court of law were they not?
Don't know did your law firm defend them? And how did they pay those legal fees, with those ill-gotten gains?
So you ask why AIG executives aren't in jail without even knowing whether they had their day in court? Good work.
why are you defending them? And what about Blankfein? Why are you protecting him? Relative of yours? Why are you the protector and champion of scumbags?
I am not defending them. If they committed a crime, they should go to jail.
do you work in finance?
Nope. Construction/Engineering.
Ok. Well the past decade was a whole sham of false profits based upon a sub prime lending machine which booked profits on the origination of those loans, not their payback. The bonuses were paid out on "earnings" from those false profits. When all those profits were wiped out in 2008, there were no givebacks, the crooks still had their bonuses and they laughed at the rest of us, who bailed them out. Talk about lack of personal responsibility. There is just as much lack of personal responsibility in Greenwich, CT as there is in Bed Stuy Brooklyn.
Greed.
Obamas' 2012 Re-election Finance Director is the son of BANK OF AMERICAS former CEO Charles K. Gifford.... the guy who got us in this mess!!! Keeping it all in the Family
They created a housing bubble; they ruined the pensions of millions; they refused to lend to small business; they took TARP and used the money for bonuses and to lobby Congress against financial reform; they buy the political process to keep the status quo; they consult to export jobs to other countries. Shall I go on?
The housing bubble was created by: 1) Lax lending laws created or required by Congress. 2) New mortgages like interest only that no one was forced to take. 3) No downpayment loans that put people in houses that shouldn't have been.
Which one of those things was illegal?
How exactly did they "ruin pensions?"
A private bank has no obligation to loan to those that they don't want to loan to, unless they are a protected class. A small business is not a protected class.
TARP, in many cases was required and forced on them by Congress. You can't blame them for that.
I have yet to read anything illegal here.
RE: pensions http://tiny.cc/flugf
Fucking pigs.
Lax laws? But your end of this keeps asking for fewer regulations? Lax laws!? Then why are you trying to advocate fewer laws on everything related to these businesses?
Because new regulation isn't needed. Anything they did was either already illegal or already under the watch of government regulators. Their failure to regulate shouldn't be confused for a need for more regulation.
Some of both actually. A failure and a lack of regulations. So much of what they did in the hedge markets was legal because it was never regulated. That is a large part of what happened.
Amen...
Illegal no, immoral yes. Sucking the blood from the ignorant and lining their pockets with the taxpayers money. Why are you on the side of the Malefactors of Wealth? And how does S&P and AIG get away scott free? Because they own the system.
Our economic system isn't run by morals. It is run by laws. So if you want to be angry, go get angry at Congress who created the laws that these companies operate within.
No, the companies created the laws. You really think congress doesnt do this without alot of undue influence? If you want to know where the head of the snake is, look on Wall Street.
"The companies (sic) created the laws" is a rhetorical talking points slogan. Congress creates laws and Congress only. If those laws are influenced by outside sources, then Congress is solely to blame for permitting it.
This is how big a dipshit you are. Companies is not misspelled. You are also stuck in a Pollyanna world where government has all the power. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. The reason you call it a slogan is that you know the concept is correct. You tell me why Scott Brown has ten million dollars in campaign donations. You think that came from somewhere other than big business? And you favor continuing that kind of thing and expanding it. I mean, in that sense, you are the problem because of the policies you tell congress you favor. The corporations have hidden behind Congress for many years and they are never held accountable, yet you talk about accountability. And why are you here? Let me guess, you saw it on Fox or heard about it from Hannity.
I hate the influence of money in politics. I am just smart enough to realize that the blame for that is Congress. The power to stop that is solely with them.
One can be angry at both. You are right that we should try to change the laws to better capture the spirit we want to be governed under. However, no one expects all of the laws to be perfect. When someone abuses a poorly constructed law it is reasonable to punish them. That's why it is good that we have things like jury nullification.
Nonsense. Government is the answer according to this Administration. No one can blame a company for using the laws to it's full advantage in a capitalistic system.
But you said government was the cause. If it is the cause, how can it not be the solution? Nevertheless, I agree, it is neither the cause or solution under the present circumstances. The problem is Wall Street.
Laws are created in one place: Congress. Congress has created the laws, or lack of laws, that allows the outside financial influence in politics. Congress is the only entity that can fix it. And the only way it gets fixed is if that Congress knows that if they don't fix it they will be sent home. OWS should be focused on Congress and no one else.
Yes they can as I explained above. To reiterate:
One of the reasons we make laws is to capture the spirit of the way we think we should interact with one another--to make rules about how we are collectively governed.
Because we are not perfect law makers our laws are not perfect.
It is reasonable to blame one beholden to the law when they go against its spirit. We determine when to do this by asking what a reasonable person would have believed and how they would have acted in the same circumstances.
Parents have these same "you know what I meant" moments with children.
OMG it's like talking to toddlers. If you don't like a law, run for office and change it or vote for someone who will. Don't blame people and companies for following legal guidelines because they aren't in line with YOUR interpretation of those guidelines. Sheesh...
I'm not sure what talking to toddlers has to do with the discussion, but...
Remember, it's not a simple matter of opinion. It's not a question of whether it's my interpretation. It's a matter of reasonable interpretation. That implies that a better argument can be given for it than some other interpretation.
Reason and logic are NOT merely matters of opinion, in case that wasn't clear.
Yes, they actually are matters of opinion. It might be my opinion that the logical choice, based on factual information is to vote for Ron Paul. Yours might be different. Logic is influenced by many factors and opinion is one. As is reason.
A reasonable interpretation of the jaywalking law is that there are no exceptions. However, if the street is closed and deserted, a reasonable interpretation of the jaywalking law is that it doesn't apply. It is based on circumstance. Both are reasonable, but with different circumstances and opinion.
If your point is that there are always equally reasonable sides to any issue, then you are wrong. The odds of the pros and cons of any issue balancing to zero is itself about zero.
If your point is that people on different sides of an issue both think that their side is correct, then I agree with you.
Opinions rule regarding matters of taste not matters of fact.
Some people are of the opinion that the earth is flat like a pancake. Some think it is round like a sphere. The opinions don't matter so much as the facts behind the issues.
No that's exactly what I'm saying. Your earth scenario is a terrible analogy. The opinion that the earth is flat is wrong as proven by science and visual confirmation. You are discussing abstract.
Your interpretation of the law is no more correct than theirs. If you do not like what the law you are discussing allows then THE LAW MUST BE CHANGED for you to have an argument. Law is black and white. Legal or illegal.
Just because something is abstract doesn't make it a mere matter of opinion.
Some interpretations of the law are better than others. The more reasonable the better. The better the reasons the better the interpretation. SOME interpretations are just plain wrong.
I agree with you that bad laws should be changed. I also agree that circumstances can affect how one should apply a law.
None of this means that laws can't be abused and that those who abuse them should go unpunished.
Congress is a waste they are bought and sold by Wall Street, so real change can only take place at the grass roots levels. Wall Street lobbied to self police-- that worked out great didnt it? And even you must admit that the laws in this country are not enforced equally. If you try to beat the IRS out of $5000 you go to jail. If you hide billions in foreign bank accounts, you get amnesty.
No, they are bought and sold by the unions my friend. But the largest contributors aren't "Wall Street", whatever your definition of that is. It is... wait for it... retired people. This was on OpenSecrets.org: (http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/background.php?cycle=2012&ind=W06)
Retired individuals contributed nearly $279 million to federal-level candidates and political committees during the 2008 campaign cycle, more than any other “industry.” Despite the stereotype that older people are more conservative, the contributions were just about split evenly between Democrats and the GOP.
If you folks would just read a book every now and then, or at least research the crap you're being fed, you'll fare so much better.
Is Goldman Sachs unionized? Is Bank of America? Was AIG? Cmon wake up.
Your point makes no sense. Unions contribute TONS of money to politicians. The SEIU contributed almost as much to politicians as Goldman Sachs, did you realize that? Look it up, it's true. So because they are not unionized somehow that makes it worse?
I'm awake. And sober. Wondering about some of you....
except that the non unionized banks, insurance companies and ratings agencies ruined the world, I guess thats just a small oversight on your part.
Ruined the world? And that's a small over-exaggeration on yours. No wait, that's a HUGE over-exaggeration.
Compare "labor" vs "finance" http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/
Oh, and also, "American union membership in the private sector has in recent years fallen under 9% — levels not seen since 1932."
It's not the people in the unions, it's the UNIONS. The leadership.
And you need to drill down a level. This is aggregate. The SEIU gave almost as much as Goldman Sachs. Oh and included in "Finance"? The Villages. You know, those evil greedy retired people who rule the world.
Okay, let's take these and assign the real blame. 1. Housing Bubble - government, specifically Barney Frank, but more broadly Fannie and Freddy - not Wall Street. 2. Ruined pensions - you have options of where you invest your 401K. If you are talking about your specific "pension" with your employer, blame the unions. They drive up wages and make it impossible for a company to compete and pay the legacy of retired union workers. 3. Refused to lend to small business - no, lots of small businesses that were CREDIT WORTHY got loans. 4. Lobby congress. Hmm. Wall Street is the only one doing that? No. UNIONS spend significantly more. 5. Exporting jobs - unions again.
Shall I go on?
Take accountability people. There are things drastically wrong with this country but capitalism isn't one of them. If you want a better job, work hard and GET ONE. Yes, it is that simple. I grew up with a single mother and we had NOTHING. But I got lots of student loans (yep I still pay them and I SHOULD because that's what a "LOAN" is), lived on ramen noodles for 5 YEARS, burned my furniture one winter for heat and got myself a brighter future. Because I studied hard. And then I worked hard. 6-7 days a week, 12 hour days to get where I am.
Have you? If not, then get off the damn street and start taking accountability for your life and stop blaming others for your situation. You have the power to have a better life. You just choose not to do the work to get there.
Umm, if we wanted to hear the Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh type of lies and distortions that you are parroting here, we'd tune in to their programs. We don't need to hear it from you.
Furthermore what makes you think people involved in the OWS movement haven't "worked hard enough" or "taken accountability" for their lives? There appears to be people from all different walks of life involved. Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Nurses, Teachers ect. and yes some who have lost their jobs and/or are having difficulties resulting from the Bush recession.
Personally, I am on firm financial footing (comfortable), but would never be so presumptious as to say that people who are struggling haven't "worked hard enough". How do you come to that conclusion? Have you walked in their shoes?
GandhiKingMindset (Forum user) has the best written set of demand: "PROPOSED LIST OF DEMANDS" . He did the best job of listing what needs to be changed on Wall Street and the government.
We need to go back to separation between Commercial and Investment Banks, i.e. Glass Steagall Act, and we need Regulators (and laws) that have backbone. We also need to break up the "Too Big To Fail" financial institutions, ban naked short selling, and limit commodity speculation. Poor people are dying around the world because they can't afford to eat and most of it is cause by commodity speculation (bubbles). We then need to go after the corruption in government, i.e. lobbyst, ALEC type foundations, and Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission. Corporations are NOT people and should not have anywhere near the rights people do.
And yes, I believe Wall Street causes bubbles and yes I believe they do naked short selling, and yes I don't think they care about starving people all around the world.
Yes, I've seen the list and most of it is very good. You've summed it very nicely.
I really hope that the-powers-that-be will take note of the proposed list while we the people continue to exert pressure on them to implement some, if not all of them.
Note: don't thing I was attacking you I was actually addressing "margaritac" the person at the top. This forum is setup weird, entries should be collapsible and not weighted so everyone has a chance to be at the top.
No, though I thought you were addressing me, I took no offense... But now that you actually are, I agree w/you about this site fwiw ;-)
Hi, I have done several Video Journals (web sites) where I have tried to make the shenanigans on Wall Street more understandable (transparent). http://www.just-gov.com, http://www.change-gov.com... there are 100's of hours of great documentaries.
Have I walked in their shoes??? Um. Yeah.
I grew up with a single mother in a bad neighborhood who worked 3 jobs. I paid for my school and worked 2 jobs - 1 just to have health insurance, 1 to eat. One winter, I was so broke that I couldn't afford heat, so I burned the dining room table and chairs that I had bought the previous year at the Salvation Army so I wouldn't freeze to death. As I mentioned. Oh. And did I mentioned that I'm disabled? Yeah. AND I'm not on SSDI - look at that! I could be, I'm certainly eligible. But I CHOOSE not to. I choose to make a better life than that for my family. Even though I'm in pain and I'm exhausted and every day things are almost insurmountable sometimes. So no, I haven't "walked" in their shoes. Because I would fall.
I'm not saying everyone hasn't worked hard enough. What I'm saying is that almost everyone could work harder. I'm saying if you have cable TV and you want food stamps, get rid of your cable first. There are things in this country that are considered necessities that are luxuries. We have become a nation of entitled whiny and spoiled people. And now people are having a temper tantrum because they want more.
Well go get more. No one is stopping you. NO ONE. But you. If you choose not to, it ceases to be the rest of the country's problem.
Did you check to make sure burning furniture to heat your home is legal? I'm not sure, but you might have been creating a safety risk for your neighbors. Inspectional services may need to be called to ensure that you are following proper safety codes. I'm sorry you are poor but your survival is not so important when compared with that of tax paying, hard working citizens.
Ah, they bundled fake loans, sold them to speculators, not telling people they were toxic. They lobby both sides to take jobs away from America, bring down wages, unionizing. They promote private taxation, with hidden fees. They speculate instead of create meaningful investments. They steal money from workers by taking away their pensions, health care. They work with undemocratic countries so that they will buy our products, when they should care about democracy first. They use low wage sweat shop labor to lower wages here.
That's right Margarita, everything is the fault of a Democrat, a worker or a union.
Someone told me this the other night:
If a dog bites you, who do you go after, the dog or its owner?
The answer, sensibly and legally, is the owner.
Congress & Federal Government are the dogs. Wall Street and the banks are their owners. Thus, we present our grievances to the owners.
PS - do not dispense employment advice to me, I am employed with a very small student loan debt.
You are so wrong. Goldman Sachs and the SEIU contributed almost equal amounts of dollars to the politicians in this election cycle. Look it up, it's published data. GS was $1.6 and SEIU was $1.3.
Hate to break your happy haze but they ALL own the dog. And I chose to go after the dog in this scenario (because your analogy is poor). We continually elect corrupt people to government. You swallow what all the talking heads pour down your throats and then can't understand why things aren't perfect.
I'm not giving employment advice to you. The difference is that I don't care what you make or don't make. I just want you to stop caring about what others do. It is flat out jealousy and it's embarrassing to be in a country full of whiners.
I don't watch talking heads. I got rid of my cable TV a long time ago.
You seem to care a lot what others are doing since you came here to post your opposing view. This country has a tax system, it is supposed to be what is called progressive, meaning those at the top pay more. This is how it was set up. I "care" what others do when they commit crime and corruption and are not prosecuted for it. I have friends who work for UBS, do you know some of the issues around UBS that have been going on for the last few years? My friends who work for UBS agree that people in finance - companies like Countrywide, BOA and UBS needed to be prosecuted for things they have done.
Are you aware that AIG, the huge insurance company is suing Bank of America for 10 BILLION (not million) dollars due to fraud?
This is not a bunch of unemployed hippies whining, Margarita, many many people in this country are fed up with what has been going on.
It is called the rule of law, people who commit financial crimes need to pay for their crimes, just like people who shoplift at Walmart have to.
Continue to not care, that is your right, but don't insult those of us that do care.
See the problem is that you assume I don't care. I just care about different things than you. No one argues that people who break the law should go to jail. Find me someone who says that. The issue is, there is a lot of talk on here about breaking the "spirit" of the law. That doesn't count. If you break the law, then you go to jail. But sleeping on the street isn't going to get them to jail, trust me.
lol, so you think the jail system works?
Good Lord, no. You want to talk corruption - sheesh....
But that is the only thing we have at the moment. I have no clue how to fix that one.
I see your point about GS and the SEIU. How about we get all of the money out of the political system and demand publicly funded elections . Then nobody gets to buy the government! Plus, the 99% get fair and equal representation in our government! Wow, that sounds like, what do they call it? Oh I know!! Democracy!!
AMEN to that! You guys make that your main point, and I'm camping with you.
magaritac, I am so glad you agree! We need to take our democracy back through Separation of Money and State! Our voices will be heard again instead of just the 1% that have bought their representation. If you agree that our democracy is worth fighting for, then you must help to make this the main point! We are all together in this. We rely and help eachother to spread the word. If you believe in it, then go tell 2 people, 10 people or more! Join your fellow protesters on the street. My sign says "I WANT DEMOCRACY ask me about it" . This is how the movement will unite. This is how we get rid of the corruption in government.
It is up to each one of us!
Accurate and misleading! Of the top 10 contributors, 9 corporations and 1 union. The last research I saw was 91% from corporations; 9% from unions, and that study pre-dated Citizens United. Recent numbers:http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topcontribs.php Please note that these are only the political donations that have to be reported. Massive corporate money goes to 527's as well.
It should all be open and transparent, but that's not the current law.
If we take all of the money out of the political process to where campaigns are publicly financed, wouldn't this solve the problem?
I wish I thought that were possible. With the current supreme court, it would be overturned if we could even get it passed.
The second best solution would be to have it all fully reported. While unions get audited in great detail, producing transparency, corporations do not have to report contributions. Some pension funds are pushing for reporting (another reason why corporations hate pension funds), but it is an uphill battle.
I wish that were possible. With our present supreme court, I don't believe that it can happen. If we could get transparency, that would at least help a little.
Unions are audited in great detail, so their money is followed and can be discovered. Some pension funds are working on having corporations report their contributions, but it is an uphill fight to uncover the money flow.
Many people believe it would be possible by overturning the Citizens United Supreme Ct decision, ending corp personhood and passing the Fair Elections Now Act S.750, HR1404. Please consider.
I would support that. But I'll be surprised if it works. I'd be very happy to be surprised on this issue!
I will look up that Act. Thanks.
Here here
I believe that this is the root cause of many of the country's problems. The more people that come to understand this , the better off we will be. Tell 2 people, 10 people or more! We need to take our democracy back. All of our voices need to be heard in our government. Not just the 1% anymore! Separation of money and state. We need to fight for our democracy the way it was meant to be!
Sounds like an.excellent.cause. if we could all agree on this one point we would defianely have something worth fighting. -- or freezing, stinking, sleeping on the ground for!
If you believe in this, please tell as many people as will listen. This is what will unite the protest. We need to work together and rely on each other to spread the message.
“The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than an autocracy and more selfish than a bureaucracy.
IT DENOUNCES AS PUBLIC ENEMIES, ALL WHO QUESTION ITS METHODS OR THROW LIGHT UPON ITS CRIMES.
I have two great enemies, the Southern army in front of me and the Bankers in the rear. Of the two, the once at my rear is the greatest foe. Corporations hav been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money powers of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of the few, and the Republic is destroyed.”
Abe Lincoln
Also like to point out that besides the government and Alan Greenspan, the NINJAs that were actually stupid enough to borrow 100k when they make 25k a year are to blame for the housing bubble. Just because the money is cheap doesnt mean you have to borrow it.
The CDO Market and privatization of Freddy and Fannie were the problem.
To blame GSO's would be fine if this was the time before the community reinvestment act. But its well after.
The Secondary market enabled this bubble. We should of never legalized CDO's or CDS's or any other free market solutions for the secondary market.
We should of stuck with Fannie Mae as a 100% nonprofit government operated entity. The same is true for the rest of the financial system. They are utilities not enterprises.
Of course work is required, this is the richest nation on earth and you yourself said you have to work like a Bangladeshi.
No no. I have chosen to work hard. Maybe like a Bangladeshi. Difference is, they have no CHOICE
Ah, they bundled fake loans, sold them to speculators, not telling people they were toxic. They lobby both sides to take jobs away from America, bring down wages, unionizing. They promote private taxation, with hidden fees. They speculate instead of create meaningful investments. They steal money from workers by taking away their pensions, health care. They work with undemocratic countries so that they will buy our products, when they should care about democracy first. They use low wage sweat shop labor to lower wages here.
Frank - close A plus for effort but not exactly. Had the loans been sold to "speculators" that would have been ok. See speculators expect a certain element of risk. The re packaged loans taking bad mortgages and packaging those mortgages as triple A investments is more accurate. See before Glass Stegall was repealed and before Maxine Waters and Barney Frank jammed an impossible to meet housing bill down the systems throat mortgages used to be a fine investment. Very rarely did people default on their mortgages. so mortgage debt was sought after by municipalities and pension funds. Once GS was repealed investment banks got into the mortgage business they realized that if they could write more mortgages they could sell more AAA paper. Frank for his part threatened mortgage banks by saying if you don't lend it they would be in violation of the cra... here is a little fun cartoon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsA9lR2XB3A... EVERYONE IS GUILTY
Agree. Lots of guilt to go around. However, I believe that de-regulation was a very large part of the problem. And Wall Street bought and paid for the de-regulation.
agree - glass stegall and reverse morris trust led to this mess
Agree. But the root cause of the problem will still be there. I believe we should get the money out of the political system. 1% buys their representation and 99% are left with the crumbs.
Utter claptrap.
Tea party checking in. Look, if you want to blame Barney Frank for everything, why not go to a Sarah Palin rally? Wall Street is where the money came from. If someone in Washington did its bidding, whose fault was it, the master or the minion? The reason the Tea Party did not get any real results, and never will is because they didnt go to the heart of the problem. Ever heard of the big ag firms, or Alcoa or how about the hydrofracking crap they are trying to put on TV about how safe it is? I have watched tap water light on fire. Thats safe?
Just for a second, unions have no power to send jobs overseas but the corporations who want slave labor do have the power and they use it.
Accountability?! My God, what about the accountability that these industries have to the country that made them worth billions? Consistently, you hypocritically say they have none. So we need another solution.
Nope, not tea party. Wouldn't vote for Sarah Palin.
But you're wrong if you think the tea party isn't influencing government decisions right now. Dead wrong.
Unions have every power to send jobs overseas. If they wouldn't force higher wages and benefits, there would be no need to send those jobs elsewhere.
They have no accountability to the country. It's just a fact. Morally, they should, but they are not bound by laws. You can't legislate morality.
If you don't like what a company is doing, don't work there. Don't buy their goods. Betcha have an iPod. Betcha don't know where it was manufactured.
I don't have any apple products, made by fox con in China.
Bet he has an ipod? I bet you have an elderly relative on medicare or medicaid. I bet there's a good chance your single mom actually did recieve some type of assistance while she was raising you, even if it was just subsidized day care or hey - public school.
Ah, bet I don't. My parents and grandparents have all passed a long time ago. My mother never received one dime of public assistance and neither did I. Public school is a ridiculous argument and you know it.
I don't want Medicare. I'm happy to take care of myself because I have worked hard and planned for getting old. I have no choice. I have to pay in, even though I don't want to, and I have to take out, even though I don't want to. That is the flaw, why don't you see that?
Public school is the same type of argument as "ipod".
I was just trying to get you to see that. You say you do not want Medicare now but so did Ayn Rand. At the end of her life she developed lung cancer and applied for both Social Security and Medicare. You cannot predict what will happen down the road or what you might need when you get there.
Yes we American workers pay into it and It's been a successful program, it can continue to be if it is managed correctly and not privatized. Why would you or anyone want to dismantle it? Have you thought about the alternative? Have you been to any country where hordes of people sleep in the street?
Right wingers are equating OWS with "tearing down America" but let's take OWS out of the mix for a minute. Why do right wingers want to do away with public programs that are successful and have been part of American life for decades? Social security for our seniors, the US Postal Service which is provided for in our Constitution...I just don't understand it, can you enlighten me?
Not even close!!! I am legally required to go to school - public school if my family cannot afford private. You are not remotely legally required to buy an iPod.
I hear ya about Ayn Rand. And I'm not saying that I don't support some type of assistance for the disabled. But you can't seriously believe that Medicare has been successful? It is bankrupt and there is more fraud and waste in that one sector than in any other.
So you think the alternative to Medicare is hordes of people sleeping in the street? See this is the problem. All I hear from the you folks is idealism or fear mongering. No common sense in the middle.
What happened to personal accountability? I didn't put my parents in a nursing home when they got old, I took care of them in my home. As they did for their parents. And this was before Part D and all that nonsense. I paid for their care (what their PRIVATE insurance did not cover because Medicare paid for almost none of it).
When you hear people argue with you, you are programmed to hear "they are taking something away from me!". I'm not asking for it go away. I'm asking for it to be reduced dramatically. I'm asking for people to stop expecting the government to pay their bills. I'm not a "right winger" so I can't speak for them, but your definition of what is successful is so flawed. If the postal service is working so well, why is it losing BILLIONS of dollars when FedEx and UPS work at a profit? And it is not provided for in our Constitution it is AUTHORIZED by the Constitution - two very different things. It only allows them to open post offices, doesn't require them to stay open.
Do I take the homeowner tax deduction? You bet. Do I want it to go away? Yep. Do I take tax deductions for my kids? Of course I do. Do I want that to go away. Yep. Reform the tax law and it loses its power. Establish term limits and corruption reduces. Eliminate contributions by organizations to campaigns (union and corporate) and their power goes away.
That's how you fix things. Not by sleeping in the street and getting in the way of hard working Americans who are trying to run their businesses and whining because someone has it better than you.
I don't think OWS is tearing down America. It's not powerful enough for that. I think OWS is embarrassing America.
I see you might have missed the fact that the banks gambled, via the futures market, with OUR money, NOT theirs. Banks INFLATED home prices as the higher the value of the home, the LARGER the loan the consumer would be liable for,
WAGES weren't driven UP, they were driven DOWN because wall st send jobs overseas, and made it impossible for us to compete, so our wages were essentially frozen or lessened over the last 30 years,
Capitalism has BECOME the problem, specifically CRONY capitalism. You know margaritac, the kind that allows GE, among others, to make 5 Billion $ and pay $0 TAX.
Or the law that lets hedge funds pay a MAXIMUM 15% tax, of course, most don't EVEN pay that after they deduct as much as they can, via the same tax laws that let GE pay NOTHING. Also, the hedge mgrs aren't PAYING SS taxes after the 1st week a pay is drawn by them, as they exceeded the threshold for wages.
The lower 98%, most of which will pay SS tax each week as they DON'T ever reach the threshold for wages to stop paying it.
Here's an article on how all st is jacking the cost of food, and costing LIVES: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,783654,00.html
How Global Investors Make Money Out of Hunger
In recent years, the financial markets have discovered the huge opportunities presented by agricultural commodities. The consequences are devastating, as speculators drive up food prices and plunge millions of people into poverty. But investors care little about the effects of their deals in the real world.
"The age of cheap food is over," predicts Knuckman, noting that this can't be such a bad thing for US citizens. "Most Americans eat too much, anyway."
Knuckman refers to the fact that the poorest of the poor can no longer pay for their food as "undesirable side effects of the market." Halima Abubakar, a 25-year-old Kenyan woman, is experiencing these supposed side effects at first hand.
Since last June alone, higher food prices have driven another 44 million people below the poverty line, reports the World Bank. These are people who must survive on less than $1.25 (€0.87) a day. More than a billion people are starving worldwide. The current famine in the Horn of Africa is not only the result of drought, civil war and corrupt officials, but is also caused by prohibitively high food prices.
///End of quotes from website.
Well margaritac, is the fact that these costs are starving people, 'an unfortunate side affect' like this wall st TRAITOR says??
Well margaritac, is that CAPITALISM, or is it genocide???
By the way, what is the Credit Score of the banks that borrowed so heavily from the US TAXPAYER?? You know, that score they use to EXTORT millions from the rest of us, yet don't have their borrowing rates raised, in fact, they are AT ZERO RIGHT NOW.
What about the credit card rates, they raised those for virtually everyone, despite how GOOD their credit was, beasue they COULD. Are they extortionists???
Oh, I didn't realize that there were guns to the heads of people who bought houses they knew they couldn't afford.
I didn't realize that Goldman Sachs sent a bunch of jobs overseas. I never get the India bureau when I call. Hmm. Odd.
Ahh, but you all said the World Bank is a fraud, so you can't quote them.
It is not genocide and you are overly dramatic.
Yeah, you don't HAVE to use a bank either.
Life is about choices. And living with the consequences of those choices.
Something none of you apparently understand.
So how do u suppose we will get anya of the changes u suggest without some kind of united front? By simply asaying please?
How about make it possible to be PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE? Why is a healthcare policy more than most of us can afford? I work two jobs, go to school full time and I am a single mother of two. I can not afford a health insurance policy so I do without. I pay cash when I can afford to, to see a doctor. If I can not, then I have to do without. I am all for personally responsibility, but for a large majority of use, personal responsibility is out of our league.
I'm seriously not trying to be cold, but that is your choice. You choose not to spend the money on the insurance. It's not the rest of the country's responsibility to provide it for you. It just doesn't work that way.
I was making $8 an hour at one job and $7.50 at another while I went to school. I worked 25 hours a week at both. One was just enough to cover my insurance. I chose to pay it. You chose not to. Yet you want ME to pay for yours.
Personal responsibility and the consequences that come with choices you make. That is what this is about.
Choose NOT to have it? I can't afford it. A policy for ME would be almost $500, unless I got one with a HUGE deductible and then it wouldnt cover anything and I would still have to pay cash to see a doctor on top of a monthly payment. I CAN'T AFFORD IT. I am barely making my bills to go to school full time.
Sorry just one more thing I had to respond to:
"I am legally required to go to school - public school if my family cannot afford private. You are not remotely legally required to buy an iPod."
You know what some of my conservative friends would say to that? Your mom should have home schooled. I had this EXACT conversation with a friend of mine from down south. She told me her mother was a single mother and managed to work and home school her and if her mom can do it then anyone can and that just proves that public, govt funded schools are not necessary.
So - there are some people who believe your publicly funded education was just as necessary as some theoretical hipster's theoretical Ipod.
I don't agree but I just wanted to let you know, if you keep supporting conservatives and begging them to take all your benefits away, they will. You and your kids won't even be "entitled" to free public education anymore. And then we will live in Idiocracy, I guess.
". If the postal service is working so well, why is it losing BILLIONS of dollars when FedEx and UPS work at a profit?"
It would be running with a surplus of several million dollars except that Congress recently required it to keep a cash reserve for worker pensions that extends 75 years into the future. They have that cash reserve, it covers pensions for people who do not work there yet and who have not been born yet. But other than that, it operates with a surplus. And again - our Constitution provides for, actually REQUIRES a United States Postal Service. It is a public resource, can you understand that concept? It is not set up to make a profit, I could agree it should be solvent and not wasteful but guess what it IS!
Private business does NOT do everything better. I have in the course of my business used all three services UPS FEDEX and USPS. Guess how I rank them - USPS is number one, Fedex is number two and United Parcel (UPS) is number three (pretty terrible actually). Yes, the govt delivers my packages more reliably and is faster and cheaper in most cases. Small businesses will be hurt if the postal service has to severely curtail services. (continued)
No, it actually wouldn't. And the reason CONGRESS required the pension funding is because of the Postal Worker Union. Good Lord people, do any of you ever crack a book open. Like, ever?
If you rate the USPS best of the three services than you are either a liar or an idiot. Cheaper yes, because you and I subsidize it. But not better service (try to call a post office and see where your letter is) and definitely not faster.
None is so blind as she who will not see.
I responded to all your blindness with the utmost respect but now you must be out of arguments because you are calling names. Liar, idiot?
I don't call up to see where my letters are but all my PACKAGES can be tracked online at USPS.com and I can also send letters with tracking for 4.75 - at the private for profit united parcel service that same letter costs over 7 dollars to send and takes 5 days to arrive instead of 1 to 3. I am not "a liar" as you state, my "lies" can be checked easily, go to USPS.com and see what services are available and how much they coast. Your "lies" however, cannot be verified.
You don't subsidize the postal service margarita, check your facts. It was converted to a non-taxpayer entity in the 1980s it does not receive ONE DIME of taxpayer money.
but guess what the taxpayers DID subsidize your public school education which you told me you were "entitled" to because your mom couldnt afford private school. But you are okay with that right? Why didn't your mom homeschool you, that is what she should have done since you believe in being self sufficient. Are you home schooling now or paying for private school? I hope so!
Well, read a little about the Post Office. Technically, it is a non-taxpayer entity yes. But the "does not receive one dime" piece is completely false. It does not have to pay taxes on anything, like every other entity. So, because of that, they are being SUBSIDIZED which is what I said.
By the way, did you even read the post you're commenting on?. I never said "entitled" I said REQUIRED. And no I'm not okay with that. I don't think the government should be running public schools at all. Give me my taxes back and I'll send my child to a private school and get a much better education for that child.
Home schooling was not an option because my mother was working 3 jobs to support me and stay off the public dole. Plus, it was not allowed back then. If you home schooled, you were considered NOT schooled - no educational recognition.
And yes, I pay for private school. And it's really expensive. AND I pay taxes so YOUR kid can go to school free. But that was my CHOICE. So I don't whine about it.
"Well, read a little about the Post Office. Technically, it is a non-taxpayer entity yes. But the "does not receive one dime" piece is completely false. It does not have to pay taxes on anything, like every other entity. So, because of that, they are being SUBSIDIZED which is what I said."
It shouldn't PAY taxes. It is a public resource like the sidewalk you walk on, like the roads you drive on, like the police force that protects you.
As for home schooling, my friend who told me she was home schooled came from a single parent home and her mom had to work as well but she says "if her mom can do it anyone can". So I' am sure she would feel the same way about you. You don't pay any taxes for my theoretical kids to go to school, I have no children but if I did, and if I did send them to public school, it wouldn't be you paying for it. The property taxes we pay in my local community pay for the schools here. The public schools here rank near the top nationwide, our kids have the highest SAT scores in the nation.
You may not "whine" about it, but you do seem to beat your chest a lot and congratulate yourself and assume that no one else works hard as you do or that no one could possibly disagree with you unless they were a deadbeat. Isn't acting like you pay for everyone else's schooling kind of like whining?
"But you can't seriously believe that Medicare has been successful? It is bankrupt and there is more fraud and waste in that one sector than in any other."
yea, it has been successful in providing healthcare for the elderly for a very long time now. Can it be improved and managed better sure? Is it bankrupt? No.
Social security is solvent until at least 2036 and probably until 2041. It needs to be managed better, changed sure, but not eliminated, not privatized and not plundered so we can spend more money on wars.
OWS sleeping in the park is pretty drastic but I think many Americans feel we are not being listened to, we have no voice when we go thru the normal channels of calling a Congressperson, voting, etc. The President is doing the exact opposite of what he "promised". So I think many feel drastic action was needed to bring attention and to finally get those in power to listen. I know that's how I feel.
We need more park sitters, 99% of us would do
No, do some homework. There is no money in the SS fund. None. It is gone. We can just keep robbing Peter to pay Paul on this until 2036. Seriously, do some research on this, it's very easy to find this information.
And no, it hasn't been successful in providing healthcare. Doctors have been successful at providing healthcare. And you don't want them to make money so there aren't too many of them left. Try and find a doctor who is taking new Medicare patients. Too much paperwork, low reimbursement, high risk.
Here is my Social Security sovlency homework, you need to start posting some links as well my dear, you are deluded:
http://www.ssa.gov/oact/solvency/index.html
Doctors provide healthcare and doctors want a system where they will get paid to treat middle income & lower income patients. There are not enough rich people to keep all doctors employed. And doctors do not want to accept barter (chickens from a farm, as some Republican politican out west suggested we do). They want a system that will provide decent care for the most people. What is YOUR suggested alternative for Medicare, you don't seem to like what we have, how would YOU improve it?
YOU do some homework and find out how many doctors and nurses were IN FAVOR of health care reform. NOT the health care reform we got but a REAL system that would provide care for most people.
My source is that I work researching exactly what you are talking about. Most of what you are thinking you know is based on some of my work. And you either didn't actually read it or you are misinterpreting it. Does that count as homework?
I speak with doctors and nurses all day, every day and less than 30% of them nationally are in favor of health care reform. If you speak with key specialists, such as oncologists, it's less than that.
You don't need the government to provide insurance. That is not what government is for. The number of true uninsureds is very low. The numbers you all like to flaunt include insure-eligible. Meaning they have company paid insurance, or access to self-purchased insurance, but they chose not to buy it.
I'm not opposed to the formation of risk pools and allowing people to purchase from them. But no, the government cannot legally require me to buy insurance, nor should they be providing it for anyone but the TRULY disabled (meaning there is no job anywhere that you could do) and the very poor (and only temporarily).
Entitlements should be there to assist people during difficulties. There is an expiration date on that however. Personal responsibility is they key. Something, it sounds like, most people on here have virtually none of. Or at least, don't want to have.
USPS is not profitable. Losing 10 billion a year might sound like a good idea to you, but it makes much more sense to have the business run profitably by someone else.
Losers die.
QUOTE: Almost all of the postal service’s losses over the last four years can be traced back to a single, artificial restriction forced onto the Post Office by the Republican-led Congress in 2006.
At the very end of that year, Congress passed the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006 (PAEA). Under PAEA, USPS was forced to “prefund its future health care benefit payments to retirees for the next 75 years in an astonishing ten-year time span” — meaning that it had to put aside billions of dollars to pay for the health benefits of employees it hasn’t even hired yet, something “that no other government or private corporation is required to do.”
As consumer advocate Ralph Nader noted, if PAEA was never enacted, USPS would actually be facing a $1.5 billion surplus today:
By June 2011, the USPS saw a total net deficit of $19.5 billion, $12.7 billion of which was borrowed money from Treasury (leaving just $2.3 billion left until the USPS hits its statutory borrowing limit of $15 billion). This $19.5 billion deficit almost exactly matches the $20.95 billion the USPS made in prepayments to the fund for future retiree health care benefits by June 2011. If the prepayments required under PAEA were never enacted into law, the USPS would not have a net deficiency of nearly $20 billion, but instead be in the black by at least $1.5 billion.
LOL, which one put you up to coming here then? Had to be some right wing nut. And you bet the Tea Party has influence, too much influence. The right wing tries to legislate morality all the time, why not now? No ipod...and I specifically stay away from Chinese made products but also try to avoid (but cant sometimes) monsanto and try to buy organic.
But lets take the ipod. If there were no trade deals made overseas, the jobs would not move there. This has nothing to do with unions but assume it does. Would you prefer that we make $12 a day in our country like they do in China? It seems like you do. Or would you prefer we make a change in all of it before the people in this country are living EXACTLY like the people in China?
And PS no one put me up to it. I came on here because I was interested in what you stood for. It just became clear that you stand for nothing. And everything. So I've lost interest.
Exactly, and there is the flaw in your argument. China is not a FREE country. They are forced to work for $12 a day, there is no other option because there is no free market. If I need a job, then I will take the $12 a day job, you bet I will. And I'll go to school at night, and work on the weekends to save up money. Then I will get a job that pays $12 an hour and do the same thing. Then I will get a job that pays $120,000 a year and do the same thing. The Chinese cannot do that. No free market, no competition. If I want to get a job and Wendy's is paying $12 an hour but McDonald's is only paying $8, maybe I work at Wendy's. Maybe I like working at McDonald's and decided to stay there knowing I will make less money. But it's MY CHOICE. The Chinese don't have that choice.
You folks are silly...
And the corporations who you evidently support go in for Chinese labor. What is so hard to understand about all of this?
What is your point? What do I support? Do I support Goldman Sachs? Do they use Chinese labor? Or do I support Apple? Because they sure as hell do.
Goldman supports alot more things than you think, maybe.
My point was you said that I "evidently support" these corporations but you don't know what I support. That was all.
Actually, capitalism is a problem. If we don't spend money, the whole system collapses: businesses close, people loose even more jobs and so on. Except it wont be the CEO's job that will be lost, but your aunt or uncles, or even yours.
You can't be serious. It won't be the CEOs job that will be lost if the whole system collapses? Really????
The situation is this, we DO spend money. Every day. Every single day.
No companies, that's better? No medicines - those are made by companies. No beds - those are made by companies.
Stop being jealous that the CEO makes more money than you! This is insane! Work hard, educate yourself, and make more money if you want. Or live in your current situation and stop complaining.