Forum Post: What is the plan when the government response becomes lethal?
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 18, 2011, 9:48 p.m. EST by maine12435
(15)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Premises:
1). The state is run by the elites/ corporations
2.) The military is controlled by the state
3). The military has been used to silence the voice of the people before. Why not again?
Look at history: the Russian Revolution, Kent State, the organizing of labor unions in South America, etc. These events started peaceful and yet were punctuated by state-sanctioned violence. The government opened fire on unarmed civilians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_1905 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War#The_Dekemvriana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Gang
I'm not suggesting that civilians form militias, or that they actively seek to use violence, or to seek weapons; only that they seek professionally trained military protection (perhaps from the UN? Open to suggestions...) You need to learn from history, understand what has happened in the past, and prepare for what is going to happen in the future: the near future...
So you know, anybody who attempts to incite you to violence or suggests anything other than peaceful civil disobedience is most likely an individual planted in the movement to discredit you and sway public opinion away from the real message you're attempting to deliver
I agree! What else can you expect, it's even easier top put a group of people on these forums and discredit the movement, then it is to put people in the marches to incite violence with the cops to sway the image away from peaceful.
Just think about it a peaceful protest is more accepted than a violent one.
That's the problem with your movement. For people on the outside looking in, I can't separate who's real who's not. I just know a lot people have a lot of opinions, and while some are good, most are just plain garbage. It's hard to throw my support behind a movement like that.
The real unspoken goal of the movement is a general dissatisfaction with competing in a global economy. It used to be that a local business had social obligations to the community it was involved in. Now, with huge multinational companies there is no social obligation to the people of the United States. There are places around the world that do not care about the health and safety of their workers, nor the overall health and sustainability of the rest of the world. Wall Street is the main source of this, if they can't exploit US worker's for enough profit they will find another country who will. They are so focused on short term profit they do not care about how sustainable that system is.
The truth is our investment system was once the best thing the entire world had come up with. For decades these companies have been chipping away at anti-trust laws and grown larger and larger. While at the same time creating more and more laws regarding intellectual property and patents there is an impossibly large barrier to entry for the average person to enter the business world. The banks know this which is why they stopped lending to anybody but a super corporation.
There is no easy solution at this point. What we need is another Teddy Roosevelt and a congress beholden to the people, not moneyed interests
I was real unions detered me
You can't throw your support behind the people? The essence of this movement is that the people want their democracy back. There are many kinds of people in the world, as you can see, but they all deserve a voice.
What we need to do is General Strike. The rich become a cowering quivering mass at the prospect of one. Then THEY are inconvenienced. Who will take out their garbage. Who will drive their limos and cabs, etc. General Strike is the obvious next step.
A one day boycott of all buying and a one day General Strike would move mountains.
we could call the new government the mountain government.
Nonviolence.
It sounds like you have an itchy trigger finger, but think of it like this: protest is meant to influence public opinion. Once enough people feel a certain way, pressure mounts on politicians to satisfy the public.
Civil disobedience and nonviolence serve two primary functions, 1) demonstrating to those in power the moral strength and conviction of your cause, and 2) inspiring others.
Your analysis of history is very selective. Just take a look at Gandhi's revolution in India, MLK's civil rights protests, South Africa's movement to end Apartheid, and any number of populist movements in South America over the last decade or two.
First what happened to Gandhi again? It made me cry. At least MLK got killed by who he was working against. Is South Africa all sunshine and bunnies? I hope this global thing is more like what those great men had in mind but that reminds me of what is his name... Oh yeah, Trotsky. I guess if you are just out to inspire and demonstrate your conviction, than this is the same old hippy protest series. I thought this was a global revolution. my bad.
Honestly, it seems like you're just looking for a fight. Citing old examples of repression and violence to justify your own desire to pick up a weapon of some sort and have your "payback." But they have far more weapons than your side does and far more capability to inflict death and destruction.
If you're going to battle (figuratively), you should pit your strengths against their weaknesses, rather than pit your weaknesses against their strengths.
I am pacifistic. I also understand there are soldiers. I may be unwilling to use violence there are others who do not share my beliefs and I believe that if ordered to they will protect the movement.
Yeah, just look at the g20 events and the peaceful protests of them. Beware if black masked guys show up, take their masks and kick them out, they are usually police paid to start violent acts and give reason for the riot police to break the crowd up.
Run like a strped ass ape.
Suggestions for what to do if the government begins using violence.
1) a concerted effort at massive tax revolt 2) currency revolt - boycott of the US dollar, print your own vouchers for bartering purposes... we have the added advantage of technology... it doesn't have to be paper currency.
These actions will get you in trouble, and if you own a business you'll probably be closed down by the Feds. Fuck 'em. Skip the court date and go into hiding - work odd jobs that pay in cash, food, and housing. Rely on sympathizers to house and feed you. If there are enough people doing this, it will cause complete chaos in their system. Let's be honest, this is the beginning of a revolution. It will be very uncomfortable for participants. Sacrifices including comfort and even ones own life might be necessary. Such are the consequences of open revolt. Would you rather die as a free person, or live under economic tyranny? BUT!!! at least tax/currency revolt is a non-violent way to begin revolution. It is also the most effective way to force the government/bankers into drawing first blood against the people, which can 1) galvanize public support for open rebellion, and 2) unmask the authoritarian nature of our system. This can have the effect of opening people's eyes and making them choose which side they are on. It is interesting to note that currency revolt was a major factor in causing the American revolt against British rule.
Either way, revolution is coming. Either we are going to get steamrolled into a new authoritarian system (a revolution from the top), or we the people are going to pay with our sweat and blood to rectify our broken system.
You may at some point see a split in the movement similar to what happened in the IRA in 1969-70. By the early '60s, the IRA had become a peaceful, purely political organization focused on social issues affecting Catholics in Northern Ireland (primarily discrimination against Catholics in jobs and housing). However, when Protestant Loyalists began to physically attack Catholics (literally burning them out of their neighborhoods) in '69, the IRA split--the Original IRA remained nonviolent and political, while the Provisional IRA (PIRA) rearmed and became the paramilitary organization that most people think of when the IRA is mentioned. At least in the beginning, the Provos (the common term for members of PIRA) took up arms purely as a measure of self-defense, because Catholics in the North literally had no protection from the Loyalist mobs--the RUC (the Northern Ireland police) either stood by or participated in the pogroms against the Catholic community. Eventually, however, the Provos became not only a much more lethal offensive force, but in fact a legitimate army. So, if a government body (federal, state or local) in the U.S. eventually decides to use force against the OWS protesters, there may be a similar development. It probably won't be as vicious, because there's not nearly as much sectarian hatred here in the U.S., but if the police become consistently violent, there will almost certainly be a reaction....
If we dont want the state to use the police or military to silence the peoples voice,we need to remove the ones making those decisions. We need to somehow start a new party and have it push aside the present two parties that we presently have(which are corrupt). In that way we can hopefully start fresh with the dealing of our country and not be like the politicians who are influenced by the corporate giants of the world.
No way, not in America! We don't take that shit laying down...
They already gained the sympathy of the military
They are slowly gaining control of the military
Referring to Kent:Using the military against civilians is illegal. The people have a right to reform or change their govt as they see fit. What was done was highly illegal of the US govt. They would not get away with that a second time. Not in this day in age. The internet has lead to an instant availability on knowledge. And people are starting to remember the govt and the military both are to protect the people not protect the govt arse.
The students were out of hand but that was no reason to shoot unarmed citizens using the military.
"Government is instituted for the common good; for the protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness of the people; and not for profit, honor, or private interest of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, the people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government; and to reform, alter, or totally change the same, when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it. " -John Adams
we need to all agreee to move on one city to regroup and a General assembly will decide the plan
I have a weapon, but it's for zombies and zombies only, or home protection. Never show or take it out unless you intend to use it. Understand that if you use force, you become no better than the oppressive powers of the state. They will have the power to crush you. With a government that spends more on defense than twice the entire world, you will be outgunned. Stay peaceful; stay non-violent. Learn from Ghandi, King, Greensboro NC, the Pettis Bridge. If it bleeds, it leads, in the news media. Make the cameras your guns.
once they shut down the drug distribution all those people will become junkies and junkies look a lot like zombies.
Follow the lessons of Ghandi in such case.
Run! You dumbass!
Run! You dumbass!
The UN won't help unfortunately :-( Your point is a valid one though - especially Kent state. The only chance any capitalist society has when things go bad is if the sons and daughters of protesters, in the military, mutiny and defy orders to shoot protesters. Then, and only then, will that catastrophe be averted. Folklore about wars is littered with stories of men who dispose of bad leaders rather than kill the wrong people or be led to suicide by "gung ho" officers. I understand that the major demographic in any volunteer army is populated at the lowest level by the sons and daughters of the poor. Parents of those in the military - talk to your children!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_Revolution
I haz anakro-sindiklist revolushun nao?
The February Revolution happened be cause the Tzarist government ordered the military to disperse the protests in Petrograd and the troops sent to do the dirty deed mutinied which led to the Tzar loosing control of the army entirely and having to flee in a hurry. Aside from a few dead protesters and officers it was almost bloodless.
the killing of unarmed civilians prompted preemptive killings of counter-revolutionaries. think about what will happen to the movement if the government starts shooting. Radicals will drown out moderates and you will see civil war here.
You're mixing up the February Revolution which was an anarchistic labor uprising that sparked a mutiny in the Tzars armed services when the Tzarist government tried to crush the general strike and the October Revolution which was a carefully orchestrated military coup to seize power.
The Red Army was planned an organized. We are an anarchistic movement that can't even agree on what we want from our government! How do you expect us to raise an army? We are thoroughly incapable of organized warfare. To suggest that the OccupyWallStreet movement can engage in civil war is preposterous!
I agree that raising an army from civilians is ridiculous. Civilians do not have the discipline necessary to postpone the madness that comes with taking human life. It will need to be a professional trained force of veteran soldiers who take their oaths seriously.
I'm saying that the red army was motivated to extreme measures because of legitimate fears of being killed. it became a game of kill or be killed. Maybe there could be a request for an army commander to accept responsibility for the safety of the protesters. I don't believe the army should be directly involved or take orders from OWS. It should just have orders to protect the protesters from any violence before it gets that bad.
The soldiers in the October Revolution mobilized because they were ordered over-the-top in the First World War when they had established, via their Soviet councils that they would only defend their trenches and would refuse to attack. We do not currently have this dynamic at play.
Part two was not. It led to a killing spree by the newly empowered Bolsheviks.
Every uprising is unique. This one doesn't resemble Russia or India or the French revolution (thank God) and it has no possibility of becoming a second American revolution. This one HAS to remain peaceful. We are in different times, now, with a psychotic government in charge of a vicious killing machine which they are actively using all over the world. This movement will have to change the hearts and minds of those who are unsure about or oppose it, due to lack of understanding. It's got to keep growing so the pressure on government becomes impossible to ignore. If the movement gets bigger and bigger and is sustained, and if the governments should ever go psycho, it will become something else. I'm sensing a paradigm shift is happening and unlike Kent State, or even the government perpetrated mass murder at Waco, I don't see a burst of state violence and everyone just packing up and going home. Things would take a dramatic turn, I'm sure. That said, I don't think that will happen because of the paradigm shift we're undergoing. We just have to be positive, inclusive, and keep raising consciousness. The challenges will be in overcoming differences and we will have to help those we disagree with to get what they want and they will have to help us get what we want, respecting the rights of all.
2012 baby. It's right around the corner.
you need to learn from history, and learn it quick. get a weapon if you don't have one already, and be learn to use it well. Revolution requires blood. This is the way of history. If it comes to the use of lethal force against WE THE PEOPLE, we must, as mandated in our declaration of Independence, solve the problem by any means necessary.
Civil disobedience. No weapons involved at all. Let them keep locking up people illegally. You'll end up with more people joining the movement. Eventually, there will be nowhere to put those who are arrested. Food, shelter, medicine will have to be provided, according to the laws of the land.
Keep it peaceful people. And don't be afraid of being arrested. It will help the cause.
I agree. It looks like a lot of non sense in here to talk about violence at this point. With enough people standing/sitting, the more powerful the movement. Violence will only end this. Which is why people are up in here encouraging it, to scare off those that come here to "research" the move movement for them selves.
How many people did the native Americans have? How well did their non-violent protests do them? I'm not suggesting violence. Only that you seek professional security as demand one. If the bankers are in charge why wouldn't you be afraid of them killing you? That is their #1 tool.
no, thats not it. i'm not trying to end anything, i just understand why the color of revolution is red. The only place that it wasn't is India. And look at india, their class system is hardly freedom, so that really didn't work, only worked to kick out the british. No, my friends, the color of revolution is red, and if the state decides to answer with lethal force, only fools would think, simple civil disobedience will work. it takes hard work, and blood letting, look at china and then look at Libia, I'm not saying pick up a gun and go kill anybody, i'm saying defend yourself.
that's retarded, you think they don't have places to lock everybody up? ever hear of the secret jails they have all over the country? They got them in Montana and Alaska. Big ass prisons, already built, ran by Home Land Security.
They have plenty of room here to put the arrested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HtqItvG1Ds
Yeah, I hear there's a lot of room at the FEMA camps.
I long for your naivete.
Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
"Give me Liberty, or Give me Death!"
Yes, very near future. The stresses on the govt minions will become acute as the banks continue to implode and the financial system is destroyed here at the end of the life of the dollar. So they will resort (since they are mostly stupid) to violence. They will order american soldiers to 'control' OWS. The issue is how will the drugged up american soldiers respond? Will their understanding of what is happening penetrate through the drug regime imposed by the military?
And the real question remains unanswered, how to respond. Other than to bleed?
and this needs to be considered as the stressors accumulating suggest a big nasty incident in mid november. clif
The movement must continue until change is seen. One should not be so negative for in the beginning only a few protested. Now many across the country and the world is watching.
the military is supposed to be controlled by the state..but the whole point of the 2nd amendment is to allow some functionary balance to the chance of state sponsored oppression through military force...think of that the next time the next time one of your mindless buddies wants to take away the right to bear arms...
You guys are fucking morons. I'm all for throwing you nut cases on an island somewhere so you can run your society your way and leave the rest of us the fuck alone. Comparing conditions in the US today to the conditions in those other places that preceded the riots is just a joke. You have every freedom in the world but you're too fucking blinded by your dumbass ideologies.
If you think the organizers of this event actually intend to disarm corruption peacefully, you are mistaken. Anyone who would organize a non-violent protest this large or for this long is in desperate need of martyrs.
I wonder myself what will take place when things go awry.
The powers of the status quo would like nothing more than for the OWS protestors to become violent. That would give them the excuse to go in and hurt people. Stay peaceful, stay non-violent. If you suspect that brutes are coming to protect and serve you into the hospital or morgue, make sure that there are plenty of cameras to capture it all.
Yes, go to the UN. How great a shame for this nation?
I'm sorry. The Russian Revolution that the events at Kent State were "all peaceful"? Like drunk people throwing bottles at people and cars, that started looting, that became a bigger mob that refused to stop and disband until the police used tear gas?
You mean peaceful like making threats and spreading rumors about a grand anarchist movement until the National Guard gets called in?
You mean peaceful like starting a building on fire and standing around and cheering while it burns and then trying to stop all police and fire dept attempts to put it out until the National Guard arrives?
You mean like refusing to back down and back off and escalating things until someone dies? Maybe you should try the kind of peace that does NOT push and push and push until violence is required?
You might be interested to know that in a Gallup pole taken after the shootings-58 percent of respondents blamed the students, 11 percent blamed the National Guard and 31 percent expressed no opinion.
I promise you, that if the members of the OWS movement allow ANY situation to escalate to that point, or participate in that escalation, the poll results today will be pretty damn close to the same.