Forum Post: What is it about Paul?
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 7, 2011, 12:09 p.m. EST by CriticalThinker
(140)
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@ TommyNYC Please indulge me ...
I personally believe Paul is the ONLY one with the foggiest clue ... I am aware that he trashed OWS. I don't like that but perhaps it was a mistake in his judgment.
Yet, I have seen in too many places (here) that some things are not always what they seem.
I personally believe that the FED should be tossed upon history's ash heap of bad ideas.
What is it about Paul that needs review?
TY
RonPaul on the Issues:
Total free market capitalism.
Free market health care.
Repeal Roe v. Wade.
Eliminate capital gains and estate taxes.
Eliminate the EPA.
Repeal ban on assault weapons.
Undermine UN arms control efforts.
Go to his website and read it for yourself.
Total free market capitalism or predatory capitalism is what we had so far and it is not working. Without import tariffs, China will never let us rebuild our manufacturing industry.
Free market health care meaning, if you don't have a job paying for your health insurance, you are screwed.
But the one most important issue, stop the trillion dollars wars and bring the troops home will get my vote for Ron.
The other candidates are worthless puppets from the same assembly line where Obama came from.
Paul does not cite ending the wars on his issues page. Even if he did, it does not come even close to outweighing the negatives listed above that are his platform.
Also, it is not China that "will never let us rebuild our manufacturing industry", it is corporate-influenced politically-legislated policies of "free trade" and foreign investment tax credits that prevent it.
@ nucleus ... quote: it is corporate-influenced politically-legislated policies of "free trade" and foreign investment tax credits that prevent it.
There is truth in that. I do not believe in this whole "free trade" philosophy. It smells.
free-trade = fulfilling duties to shareholders to make the company more profitable by utilizing radically cheaper overseas labor without required benefits, unions and complex tax structures.
we need to be more protectionist in the US period... yet that word has been bastardized by corporate sponsored ad campaigns and drone legislators who are just stupid, and pretend to speak with authority.
@ ineptcongress ... Agree. The typical response is those who think this way are "protectionists". Well, they WILL be protectionists too, when they're starving.
Check the second line item, on the National Defense subpage.
By stop spending with the wars, we are going to use the extra billions here to generate jobs.
And no more terrorism threats and long TSA lines.
Don't expect to see a "perfect" president in your lifetime.
"Avoid long and expensive land wars that bankrupt our country by using constitutional means to capture or kill terrorist leaders who helped attack the U.S. and continue to plot further attacks."
That does not say "END WARS". It does not prohibit war for other reasons (corporate profit, Resources [oil], etc.). What constitutional means - the War Powers Clause? This is bullshit.
Nucleus, I doubt Ron Lawl will be able to stop all the wars immediately, especially after the mess this sequence of bad government created in the Middle East. I suspect that's why he did not use the "end wars" term. In "Imperial by Design" U of Chicago political science Professor John Mearsheimer makes a valid point on US international policy. The video is below.
http://youtu.be/sKFHe0Y6c_0
do you mean that spending 675million per day in Iraq and Afghanistan is a waste of money? The people and lands there are directly essential to US interests--Lol.
Actually the market we have is incredibly regulated and not free at all.
Yes, but the regulations created in the last 20 years are favoring the corporations.
I agree with you. Personally I advocate a mostly free market system where the government steps in to regulate monopolies and the like.
@ superomenna1 ... Thank you for taking the time to reply ...
Stop the wars: I agree emphatically. Enough is freaking enough!
Other candidates: Again, I agree emphatically. There is NOT one shred of difference between repubs and dems. Just part of the machine.
Predatory capitalism: Hmmm, is it capitalism that is so bad or is it corporatism? "China will never let us rebuild our manufacturing industry" I get what you mean but bristle at the word "let". China needs to quit "skrewing" with its currency on a daily basis.
Health Care: Kinda' have to agree. It used to be that low wage earners were compensated with a health care package. Not so anymore.
CriticalThinker, by "predatory capitalism" I meant the capitalism without checks and balances, where corporatism dictates the rules.
Capitalism is good, if kept under control with government laws that don't allow corporations to trample over the population.
http://www.loveallpeople.org/predatorycapitalism.html
@ superomenna1
quote: CriticalThinker, by "predatory capitalism" I meant the capitalism without checks and balances, where corporatism dictates the rules.
Capitalism is good, if kept under control with government laws that don't allow corporations trample over the population.
I agree with you. I don't know that "Protectors of the Public" (taken from the link you provided) is a primary function of the corporation particularly if protection isn't their main reason for existence, i.e., a textile company.
I don't believe capitalism in and of itself is evil. I own a business and I bring a very particular group of items together in one place for sale. The general public would not be able to obtain some of these products on their own.
I do disagree with the article concerning competition. I have a similar retail outlet very nearby. Keeping our pricing competitive is not evil but a method of keeping both of us honest. The consuming public wins. HOWEVER, when "big box" retailers move in, ALL small merchants are put out of business. Profits from the "big box" then leave the community which leaves the community at financial risk.
I would be open to a public audit of the Fed, and if it shows significant dishonesty and irresponsibility I would be open to nationalizing it and handing its functions over to the US Treasury Department. As far as tariffs on imports go, that's the only way I can think of to begin the process of bringing jobs back to America and raising the wage of the average worker. If he's not going to work to address one of the major causes of long-term unemployment and wage losses then I fail to see how it's a good idea to vote for him.
I'd also like to see a great deal more clarification from Mr. Paul on which sets of regulations he considers outside the constitutional jurisdiction of the government and which ones he considers vital reforms that need to stay in place. Honestly, given his rhetoric on the matter I don't know what to believe and I don't want to believe he's one thing only to find out the hard way that he's another. I want the Patriot Act gone and the TSA dismantled, and I think he and I can agree on that. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley vote is a good sign but until I can square that with his rhetoric and get an actual platform from the man I'm not going to consider voting for him.
His comments on the EPA scare the shit out of me; Essentially most of eastern North Carolina stinks to high heaven because of hundreds of millions of gallons of pig crap from factory farms is being let to marinate in open-air lagoons and/or sprayed into the air as an aerosol. It's actually gotten to the point of ruining something like nine or ten waterways and causing China-esque air quality problems. What really takes the cake, though, is the leaky nuclear waste dump in Andrews County, Texas that happens to be sitting on the aquifer that provides drinking water to seven different states. This is the kind of crap the EPA belongs fighting, and eliminating the one agency that wants to clean up the environment is an enormous step in the wrong direction.
On top of that his talk of flat taxes and imposition of the gold standard makes me profoundly uncomfortable. A flat tax is by its very nature a regressive tax, and in order to bring in the same revenue as the current system it would have to take the difference out of the hides of the people who can afford it the least. He also wants to tax capital gains (essentially money created without any actual work being done to earn it) at a lower rate than regular income, which is just plain incentivization of laziness on the top end. As far as the gold standard is concerned, the first thing you learn in economics 101 is that credit needs to be relaxed rather than tightened to deal with a recession, and moving to a gold standard would pretty much strangle credit at the time when that would hurt us the most. Once again, bad policy.
Besides, the man's apparently a young-earth creationist. That pretty much tears it for me. I don't care what else he is, if he deliberately shuts his eyes to basic science (whether it's to pander to the religious right or, even worse, if that's an accurate reflection of where he stands) there's no way in hell I'm going to trust him with the country. If the man decides that continually verified truth doesn't matter because it conflicts with his beliefs then on some level something has gone very wrong.
Bringing the troops home is fine and dandy, but we're already well on our way to doing that; there's a very good chance that pretty much all troops will be out of Iraq by the end of December 2011, and we're going to have all of our combat people out of Afghanistan by sometime in 2014.
So far, I see a man who's gotten one, maybe two things right (his no votes on Gramm-Leach-Bliley and S.1867, and his desire to put the Fed under a microscope). However, those two things are pretty small when you consider the number of things he seems to be promising to get wrong as president.
@ ARod1993 ...
I think we should end the Fed, with extreme prejudice. This gang of banksters is a very large part of the problem. Constitutionally, ONLY the congress (meant in general) has the power to "COIN" money. The word coin is critical.
Tariffs? My emotional response is to tariff the schitt out of the bastards. I am not so sure that response wouldn't bite us in the proverbial ass, though. For the life of me, if I may take a quick detour here, I simply DO NOT understand WHY we are trading with communist china anyway. We spent how many billions fighting a cold war with the USSR and yet we give these hacks carte blanche to our ports and retail shelves whilst throwing blue collar labor out on their asses. But, that would be a bee-hive of a discussion for later.
Agree with you on EPA. As much as I believe the EPA can be the biggest collection of inepts, they have made our living environment safer. To do away the EPA now would be an absolute heydey for the corporatists and I, for one, will do all in my power to see that does not happen. I am sorry to hear of your plight in NC. I am a transplant to the Piedmont and happy to be here.
Taxes: ???? WTF! Taxes suck but are necessary. I don't know what the solution is. A sales tax sounds interesting, seems to "level" the field. I buy a Civic, rich man buys a Bentley. You pay based upon what you buy. What I am sick of is paying taxes to bail out the banksters and other corporate "children" who can't decide right from wrong. I don't buy the argument we should lower capital gains tax as that creates jobs. Ahm, no, consumers create jobs. The gold standard still interests me. If you ain't got it, you can't spend it.
Young earth creationist? HUH?!?!?! I do believe this earth was created and I do believe I have no ancestry with apes nor did my ancestors crawl up out of the primordial soup. I don't argue with the Creator as to how long this planet has been spinning in orbit. A thousand years is as a day and a day as is a thousand years.
We absolutely must bring the soldiers home. This was nothing more than nation building and NWO. We are absolutely no safer, and probably more at risk, by screwing around in the affairs of nations we have no business screwing with.
Agree with destroying 1867 but what the heck is Gramm-Leach-Bliley?
I want to audit the Fed and if it is as bad as you say I would have no problem breaking it up and nationalizing the pieces. I know the Fed was a mess under Greenspan and even under Bernanke things aren't necessarily improving, but I want to be sure that this is more than just the personal wankery of the last two directors before we repoliticize the functions of the Fed.
Tariffs and the EPA I agree with you on; although I'm not from North Carolina I keep up with the news and the hog crap problem they have over there is just obscene. As far as taxes are concerned, a sales tax has a place but by nature it is quite a regressive tax because the poor wind up buying things like food and basic necessities more often than the wealthy go out and buy things like Bentleys and thus the poor get hit much harder than the wealthy.
The thing with the gold standard is that if you decided to switch back to it now you'd pretty much collapse credit markets that are already struggling to get back on their feet after the first recession. By credit markets I don't mean the marked for people's eleventh credit card I mean the market for old-fashioned 20% down mortgages and for venture capital for small businesses. Tying our currency to a basket of consumer goods including things like food and utilities during a boom would be an idea to consider, through.
As far as creationism is concerned. I honestly don't care if you believe God created the universe and everything in it as long as you accept that He created the Universe by means of the Big Bang and life by means of evolution. Pretty much all the science out there does point to us sharing a common ancestor with most if not all living creatures on the planet, to the point that you share 90% of your genome with your neighbor's cat. There actually was an experiment done in which a primordial soup was taken and exposed to continuous high-energy light of the sort that would have hit the earth before it had life on it, and said soup developed a slew of organic molecules including amino acids from which cells would be capable of assembling themselves.
Incidentally, Gramm-Leach-Bliley was a 1999 bill that repealed Glass-Steagall. This repeal meant that it was now legal to have enromous superbanks that did everything from savings and loan to depository services to investment to derivatives trading. Up until that point, it was illegal for a consumer bank to merge with an investment house to prevent the systemic contamination of our economy from bad assets.
No, in total free market capitalism, no entity is too big to fail nor are any subsidized by forcefully robbing the citizens and telling them they will just have to suck it up.
It's been more than 100 years since we had actual captialism.
@ RonPaul ... Thank you for taking the time to reply ...
Total free market: not so sure anymore ... based on what I'm seeing, it sure is "skrewed" up out there. I'm not buying the whole notion of "wherever it can be obtained cheapest" is best. There IS a cost to cheap prices and I've seen to much human suffering and loss to believe that the cheapest is the best.
Free market health care: not sure on that ... need more info from BOTH sides of the argument.
Repeal Roe v. Wade: Although I agree with this because of my belief systems and values, I don't think that's gonna' happen.
Eliminate gains: Agree on estate, not so sure on capital gains. Smells funny.
Eliminate the EPA: Don't agree. Although I think they go way overboard and are overbearing, they have done an awful lot of good cleaning up and getting corporations under control.
Repeal ban: Agree.
Undermine UN: Agree
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add these
eliminate the income tax
end the wars
bring all troops home
close all overseas bases
eliminate all foreign aid
get out of NAFTA,WTO, UN, NATO, IMF, World Bank, CAFTA, GATT
No National ID card
Repeal the Patriot Act
Pardon all nonviolent offenders
Abolish the FED,DOE,DEA,DOC,DOA,FDA,SS, Medicare, Medicaid
So you have a problem with the US no longer being at the beck and call of the UN? Paul will remove the US from the UN as our membership and participation with the group, is not only Unconstitutional, it's further dug this nation into a deeper financial hole while creating more enemies for the United States.
You have a problem with only criminals and militant police owning weapons of which offend you? Have you ever read the Crime Bill which spent over 300 million dollars allegedly banning Assault Waepons and High Capacity magaines? It was about everything but banning a small number of weaponry on the market.
My guess is that you weren't even born when it was signed.
Are you opposed to having YOUR HOME state having the power to tax gains and such and meeting in the nation's capital to work out agreements between states? Doesn't it make sense if you really want The People to have control over their government to move as much power to the 50 states?
Do you really think the huge regulations and medically biased legislation has helped with the cost of health care? Do you think all of the pure wealth extractors heavily entrenched in most medical transactions add any value? They don't, they drive up costs and profits to big business.
There are plenty of capable persons in all 50 states who can apply themselves to bringing reason to our existences, while working with those in all other states to bring about prosperity and common sense to our nation.
Aren't you sick of the games that will always be played in the District of Criminals? At least if the same happens at home, the players are much closer at hand and easier to be held accountable.
Exactly how is the US at the "beck and call" of the UN?
Exactly how is it not? Our nation is unofficially at war, killing and being killed, at HUGE cost, with seven nations under UN joint resolution.
These are not the wishes of the people.
Follow the money and blood trail.
That was a political resolution introduced by the US to benefit global our corporate interests. It was NOT forced on a reluctant US that had no other options - the US has VETO power on the UN Security Council and uses it regularly.
You do not have a clue what you are talking about. Follow the money, YES. Folllow Rush Limbaugh, NO.
I'm certain that nobody asked me about joining the UN which protects WHOSE global corporate interests?
So, contrary to what most all believe here, you have no problem with The People's de facto NOT government being involved in corporate politics.
And you ignore the unconstitutionality, and PLAIN wrong, of this nation's fighting persons dieing without any declaration of war by congress.
You are a fawktard from the word GO.
"Our" meaning US (really mulit-national) corporate interests. Not "ours" as in the people.
I'm not ignoring the illegal wars for corporate profit and their horrible human toll, I'm just pointing out the duplicity of your boy Paul who says one thing but does not bother write it on his website. Where does say - in writing - that he will end the wars? He does not.
Even if he did, his other policies are so counter to the needs of the people that he is absolutely unsupportable by any sane rational human being. A few god sound bites do not make a sound political platform.
Well, I suppose if you support The People's government spending huge borrowed debt and lives upholding multi-nationalist corporations, I can't quite see that you are sane.
Where does say - in writing - that he will end the wars? Keep ignoring the issue, it makes you look really smart.
Where do I say that I support any of the things you accuse me of? It is your pro-corporate, anti-tax, anti-health care, anti-environment stooge Ron Lawl that does, not me.
Grow a brain, or at least learn how to read. Then go to Lunar Op's website (linked above) and read HIS positions. And try not to confuse them with mine.
It wouldn't matter, you are irrational as well as a null and void persona non gratis. Therefore I'll decline your prom invitation.
If Frogs had Wings, you'd be a genius. Alas ...
Sadly for you, I'm all that and then some. I look up and to the left to acknowledge your existence. Alas, I must accept never being able to behold your sight, as the look straight across the curve is blocked by it being very opaque.
I understand you ride the candy bus to school and no amount of lecturing you will ever have you grasping the concept of personal hygiene so as to have you cease licking the windows.
What is it about Paul fanatics trying to turn the OWS movement into a political thing and a vote for lawn roll movement ?
Your little gathering of Paul fanatics got hijacked by the Tea Terrorists. Go annoy them.
Send The Establishment a message! Go to RonPaul2O12..com and donate $1.
His website makes it easy...it will only take 1 minute.
RonPaul is the king of the trolls and his libertarian minions infest every nook of the Internet universe. As a troll king he has magical powers to blind people to their own best interests. If you look at him for more than a second or two he will gouge the reason out of your skull and eat it for lunch.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWxaGRZ7Nrs
@ trob888: Paul IS correct on these wars and the fed.
Even if we accept your underlying argument to be true, i.e. central control of the money supply is the root of all our problems today (which is a very generous concession), we still cannot accept that a "gold standard" prevents that control or the effects of that control, because there are documented historical instances of both extreme monetary deflation and devaluation within nations on a PM standard, not to mention extreme sociopolitical upheaval and mass exploitation around the world.
A typical libertarian fallacy that confuses a symptom of broader and more foundational forces for a root cause. FDR's revocation of the domestic gold standard and Nixon's revocation of the international gold standard in the debt-dollar reserve system were natural outcomes in the evolution of the industrial capitalist system.
It was the system of private property, private markets, never-ending growth and profits that made gold unsuitable as a monetary backing for the elite class. It was not just the individual greed of politicians and bankers who wanted to control the money supply and expand the power of the state. Again, those are merely symptoms. And all of this ignores the broader and more severe energy/envrionmental issues we face due to a combination of our socioeconomic/political/cultural environment and human instinctual behavior, which includes aspects of both greed and malice.
A gold standard has never, and could never adequately resolve those issues in a complex, global society such as the one that was emerging at the turn of the 20th century.
@ anachorism ... Good points ... Honestly, I do not understand the gold issue enough to have an intellectual opinion.
But, this I do know. One, creating fiat money out of thin air and then loaning that back AT interest is a house of cards with but one outcome.
Secondly, whenever you have private bankers coining a nation's money, the citizens will wake up one day to find their children homeless.
I'll keep it short. I support RP just because he throws a wrench at the system. Not for his vision of the future.
It's not about private bankers - it's about capitalism. Which is little heavy for some.
He only "trashed" the ones who allegedly have brought harm to innocent bystanders and those who openly proclaim they want the Federal government to give them things for free. He's on board with all the rest of the reasonable persons in the group and detests the violations of human, as well as Constitutional rights being demonstrated by this nation's para-military police.
All easy enough to verify for those who care to see.
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I think RP is completely and utterly clueless. His vision of the future of bitterly resisted 19th century is insane. He lives in a completely mythologized world where markets are rational, good and find equilibrium and can survive without big government's constant interventions(capitalism would collapse w/o it). And lets not forget his bizarre religious like worship of gold.
But, what the heck, he is not a "company" man and threatens the status quo so I will vote for him just to watch the system implode or him get killed.
His connection and backing buy racists, reconstuctionists, and fascists, would be a start.
He is not what his press releases tell you he is.
Can you show that?
I'm sorry you missed it.
It was posted here many times.
Over three months worth.
In the end, he's just another (R) on the ballot.
well, if you took the time to tell me this, why not post the info again?
All you really have to do is look at the ballot and notice the (R) next to his name.
Yes, he does have an R next to his name. What is your point?
Is he an (R)?
There seems to be some dispute.
I don't think he is of the same "philosophy" of The Old Guard.
Not very descriptive for a critical thinker.
Pretty hedging in fact.
He's actually followed it ( that "philosophy") well.
OK, I see where you're going.
The truth is scary.
Isn't it.
Face it and come alive.
The truth can be scary.
I am alive.
Then why ask about Mr. Ps connections with those groups?
If you knew the truth, you would be highly aware of them, as well as their implications.
You are not being honest here.
I am most assuredly being honest. Show me a politician who is intent of ridding us of this plague called the federal reserve.
What, exactly, is your question?
People who evade answers, and don't answer questions, are not being honest. They are being vague.
It doesn't matter what he stands for, he's seen as "too far out there" by a majority, that feeling isn't going to change. He's unlikely to ever get the republican nomination, but may help get Obama reelected if he goes the third party route.
Really? So, when do we stop voting for the lesser of the evil and just vote for who will do the best job?
Why is he seen as "too far out there"?
Part of it is the news letter problem that dogs him. Some of it is he's Libertarian/conservative viewpoint and while some of those ideas are appealing the entire package isn't to most people. If he manages to get the nomination I'd probably go with him over Obama, but I don't see him being able to overcome his handicaps to win the nomination.
how can a "criticalthinker" ask a question like this? silly troll? stupid troll? What is it about Paul that needs review?
NOTHING
[fyi - find out how his son became a board certified doctor]
good post op I never seen paul bash OWS that is a soros lie so we the american people can't back someone that will help us. If you have a link I would like to see.
@ newjustice22: Well, I have NOT seen a video/audio of Paul making that remark but here is a link reporting it as a Paul quote.
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/30/8546673-paul-tea-party-godfather-says-occupy-all-about-handouts
wow thats a lie they totaly miss quoted him that was on a debate where they ask him about ows. He said some in ows want a hand outs and the other side wants to stop paying for it. let me see if I can find the video.
@ newjustice22 Thank you for the link ... closing up shop and I will look at it later.
still couldn't find it but I did see more video of him defending the movement so I know he is not against it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDdSF59PyPI like this one
Paul does not ridicule OWS in this vid. He does claim the free market is not at fault but I am not convinced. Yes, idiotic corporatist legislation has screwed us all, but I'm not buying free market has no culpability.
Well you have to understand that we have not had free markets since 1913 when the fed took control under free markets the banks and wallstreet would never get bailed out. I think you should learn more about free markets than you will understand why we do not have true free markets.
here is a video of him defending ows im still looking for the video one moment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z91gTaEbnvk
@ newjustice22 ... I did watch the video, finally. I DID forget about it but saw someone had posted to this topic and saw you had posted the link. Anyway, I did see the video.
Here's my opinion. This Cain is an absolute, bought-and-paid for asshole. This idiot stated that the victims of wall street, i.e., you and me, shouldn't blame wall street but should blame Wash DC.
Cain, thank goodness, is out of the race. Does he NOT grasp that wall street PURCHASED the legislation that Cain wants the 99rs to go protest against wash dc for our troubles?????
Geez, what an asshole.
But, Paul did come back and busted cain's ass!
Yes he did I urge everyone do not not look at MSM there are many interviews on ron paul and his voting I ask you to look at it ur self and judge. There is a reason why left and right are attacking him.
"can't load movie" so sayeth youtube.
The American Circus- The Central Intelligence Agency http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF5b9StGHaU
The American Circus- The Sideshow Corruption http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNAhn9SwbvM
The American Circus- The 2012 Elections http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wt1tST01uQ
Time Magazine Dec 5 2011 issue: Will be Censored in the United States. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9OLLbC7zFs
Evolution or Mankind? Mass Wildlife Death Sweeps Globe 2011 Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBWNT4JN9bY
Evolution or Mankind? Mass Wildlife Death Sweeps Globe 2011 Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prIOuViMLw4
No Fracking Way- Acid Mine Drainage & Earthquakes?!? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz4VYLBrIgY
Update November 18th 2011: PA DEP Allows Acid Mine Water to be Used in Fracking
http://marcellusdrilling.com/2011/11/pa-dep-allows-acid-mine-water-to-be-used...
Trying to inform the public is the most difficult, Forward this