Forum Post: What do you think of wage caps?
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 2, 2011, 8:54 p.m. EST by VladimirMayakovsky
(796)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Should everyone have a wage cap of say $12k/year to eliminate income inequality?
Sorry no, peoples work ethics are not equal. Some would be happy with $12k, some would be hamstrung by it. Let each earn what he can as long as he provides a useful product or service to the masses, and let it be without coercion or fraud.
But what about income inequality? If there is no way to pull up the low skilled folks (pure supply and demand, too little demand for low skilled workers, too high supply) then might as well bring down the high skilled folks, no?
Sadly no. What you need is a system that allows a person to receive a rerun for their time and effort, a system that is fair, that rewards people who try. What we have now is a corrupted version of capitalism which makes it hard for people who aren't in bed with the regulators to get ahead. Income equality is an evil, because it assumes all people want and deserve the same.
Congressmen, Senators and the President should have a $12K wage cap. Their $12K/year base pay can be supplemented with a bonus depending on how the economy does.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/link-congressional-pay-to-performance/
Yeah, sure....You would see economic bubbles that would make the housing bubble look like a mere ripple.
Geez if u put performance standards on politicians, the house and senate would be empty! Therefore it can't be that bad an idea!
Well, yes it can be a good, or bad thing. I don't it would be a good idea to have the houses empty because someone needs to take care of those chores whether we like it or not. We can just increase the bonus as one means to attract the right civil servants.
What about people like you and me? Why should we get away scot free and cause income inequality? Income inequality is bad, right?
Ultimately income inequality arises from asymmetric information.
Here is a good article that descibes WHY we need income inequality and property at all
http://mises.org/daily/5783/Twos-Company-The-Basics-of-Property
corps again not paying their fair share:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/business/280-big-public-firms-paid-little-us-tax-study-finds.html?_r=1&hp
Rubbish
Wage cap, No way. Capitalism is not the enemy here. Plutocracy is.
http://thepurpletruth.blogspot.com/2011/11/are-occupy-wall-street-protesters-bums.html
Income equality will always exists and provides incentives to work hard.
This society gives unfair advantage though, to those who least need it.
why would anyone strive harder than to be a line chef at denny's??
You idiot!
wage cap should be based on world examples - honestly dont know the numbers, but if the average world ceo of a $100,000,000 company makes 30 times the company's lowest paid worker makes, that could be the kind of standard for usa
Wealth inequality would not be addressed by wage caps, in fact, inequality, over all, would grow, since the ultra rich do not depend on occupational income, for their standard of living. Income caps would not redistribute wealth, to the middle class, something that our economy really needs, actually. Plus, the US needs to pay workers top dollar to attract foreign talent. Why move to the USA, to do more with less? Do you really think that a Chinese engineer is going to work for $12, 000?
No, seriously, even in China and Russia, $12, 000, for a professionally educated man or woman, would illicit laughter, not interest. I mean, $12, 000, so the ultra rich can have billions and use us as cheap labor Morlocks, no, really? If you imposed wage caps, I would be the first American born Canadian illegal alien. The whole of the USA would flee to Canada, to make more money; simple as that. The USA would be made up of Paris Hilton and several crazy Communists. Hey, why not, though? Canada could use the population boost. [giggle]
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Meh, we can fix this by going back to our old income tax system, where the ultra rich paid significantly more in taxes. Remember, that the free market suffers, when you concentrate wealth and income. Here are some of the ways:
For one, the US Government really does need the money, so instead of taxing the ultra rich, the Government borrows the same money from the ultra rich. When the Government borrows money, the Government rations out potential investment, from private industry, in new careers, in new infrastructure and in new and diverse enterprise development. Private industry, cannot minimize their cost of capital, since they have to compete with the US Government by offering something more, than the relatively less risky US Government is offering.
Concentrating wealth, in the hands of the rich and the ultra rich, also raises the costs of doing business, in the USA and lowers the potential profitability off of servicing the USA. The best class to service, is the middle class, since the middle class is a more profitable class to service. There is more money, generally speaking, in making $ 200 dollar watches, than in making $200, 000 dollar watches, for instance. The middle class is the seet spot, to access. In China and India, what is the buzz?....the new Chinese rich ro the new Chinese middle class? The middle class is the least costly, most profitable class to service, plain and simple. When middle class numebers are rising, you are in like sin. No one gives a poo about the rich in Moscow, a city with more billionaires, than any other city on Earth. The talk is about the new middle classes of China and India. An economy based on servicing the rich? Ha, how many Ferrari super cars can you f-cking sell, anyway? [giggle]
Concentrating wealth makes it harder for middle class to have families and make babies, since you need the resources to have a family and if you are chronically unemployed, you can't pay for a family. This means that it is hard to increase the population, by birth rate or immigration, since a Chinese MBA isn't going to move to the USA to be unemployed, while there is a ton of demand for MBAs in China. The problem there is that without a growing population you cannot sustain the benefits of free cash flow, such that you optimize your long term chances of maximizing shareholder value, off of activities in the USA, since there is less and less incentive to prioritize an chronically unemployed, shrinking consumer market. Companies then create more buzz ahnd careers in growing foreign markets, where there are babies, immigrants and optimal chances for maximizing shareholder value.
These are a few reasons, but not the only reasons, to stop concentrating wealth, to tax the ultra rich more and to grow the American middle class.
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What if we have a wealth cap too? No one can own more than $100k.
You don't think the OWS guys can fulfill all the jobs in the USA?
I deserve a lot more than $100, 000, with my MBA. I would not, if I did not know what I am talking about, but I do know what I am talking about. The USA needs guys, like me, since I am not arrogant and unwilling to see the value of the middle class. Just read some of the things, I wrote above and you will see that a frat boy, with a College degree, a family connection and a series 7, is no match for me; in strategic executive thinking. No qualified manager would seek to create conditions that would destroy the long term growth of shareholder value, undermine the desirability of doing business in his home market and undermine the ability of his customers to have children. That is nuts. It is one thing to grow a foreign market, but you can't depend on a foreign market. You need to worry about your home turf.
No qualified manager would do this; destroy his home market, for short term goals; only the arrogant, rich, spoiled, connected, a-holes, we have in our offices or the ignorant frat boys, with Series 7s, running around our I-Banks. A f-ing moron should have better sense, than to undermine the ability of two generations to gain the experience, the experience they will need, to replace the baby boomers. Do you think that the Chinese are going to move here, to make less money, to service a dying market, to be poor? No, they are going to grow their own market, rather than depending on exports to the USA; because they have MBAs, not finance guys, with Series 7s, to run the show. They are worried about their ability to grow, without us. They are looking to a future, without us.
They are not looking to depend on the US finance idiots; behind wrecking this economy. The Chinese will take the temporary hit to growth, from disappointing the Globalists and they will grow internally. They will screw the Amercan rich to a f-cking wall, by replacing the Americans, with their own people. They will buy their own products and they will employ their own people. This does not mean that they will not have a major hit to growth, temporarily, but they will weather it and they will emerge far less dependent on the USA.
You know that they will get the energy they need, since Russia, is in some respects, an energy company pretenting to be a Nation State. Russia would charge Russians and Europeans significantly more for energy, to ensure that the Chinese could pay significantly less, for the same; just as Russia did to ensure that the Ukraine had cheap energy. The Globalist have to be nuts, if they believe that the World's largest energy exporter would let China unduly suffer, for anyone, much less for Globalist I-Bankers, convinced that they are on the verge of running a boarder-less finance empire. [rolls eyes]
My MBA has no value? Like hell it does not have value! Yet, we get rank, talent- less, connected amateurs, looking to hire their superiors, as their assistants, because they are talent- less scum; that is what we get, time and again, from the so called qualified, experienced workforce. We get job losses, due to efficiencies and outsourcing. They should get a $100,000, for coming up with nothing and doing nothing, but growing foreign markets and destroying careers, in the USA? No, they don't deserve a $100, 000. They should make minimum wage, if they have nothing to contribute to our economy.
So what do you want? What's your solution to income inequality, the root of all evil?
For a start, we need to go back to our old tax system. It makes no sense, to have four hundred individuals retain as much wealth, as half the population of the USA, while the US Government babbles about austerity measures, to help pay back the same ultra rich, hoarding US debt securities. The ultra rich are not doing the US a favor by investing in India, China, US debt securities and gold. The ultra rich do not invest in growing the US middle class, a class we need to grow. They actually ration out potential private industry investment by unduly raising the cost of capital, for any private initiative; intended to create new jobs, improve equipment or to invest in new commercial enterprises, altogether.
We can't count on billionaires to take the risks necessary to get two unemployed generations, into the workforce. If you are a billionaire, you do not depend on occupation income, you invest in US debt securities and gold, so why would you invest in a risky nano- tech company or in a company hiring inexperienced workers; essentially unknown quantities? There is no reason to continue to concentrate wealth and income in the hands of such risk adverse, Globally oriented, billionaire investors. Until private industry is ready to invest in the USA, the US Government needs the resources to help employ the two most highly educated generations in US history and to do that, the US Government needs to stop borrowing money and the Government needs to liberally tax the ultra rich people responsible for the underlying National crisis.
One of the benefits is that the taxes will allow the Government to effectively reduce Government competition in debt securities, currently rationing out the potential for future private industry investment, in the USA, generally so and investment, specifically, in the American middle class; the class, we so desperately need to grow. The upper middle class and the rich are trickier, than the ultra rich, with regard to taxation, since the upper middle class and the rich really do depend on their occupational income, many of them are potentially a paycheck away from falling behind their lifestyle and most of their wealth is tied up in home equity. The ultra rich could be taxed to death, without a noticable change in their standard of living. Hey, there are four hundred individuals with as much wealth as the bottom fifty percent of the Nation. I would start swinging the tax hammer in their direction. [grin]
Should money be taken out of the pockets of the ultra rich and given to low and middle class Americans?
No, money should be taken from the ultra rich and put toward middle class careers, where the middle class would work for a living. A growing middle class will help maximize profitability of companies, servicing the USA, since the US middle class tends to be the most profitable class to service. A growing middle class will be able to have families and will contribute to the population growth needed to sustain the benefits of free cash flow, optimizing our chances of maximizing shareholder value, over the long haul, while servicing the US market. The rich benefit, since the rich will have a growing middle class to service and the middle class is generally the most profitable to service. There is more money in selling to the middle class. I mean, seriously, how many Ferrari sports cars can one sell, out side of Las Vegas? [grin] The working class benefit, because the middle class creates a lot of demand for service jobs held by high school graduates. In the end, the ultra rich will not even notice the money that is missing.
Believe it or not, many of the ultra rich types don't spend a lot of money on status stuff. I had a Cuban relative, a member of the ultra rich. My relative, Alberto, owned a steam ship company and he owned many ships, in Cuba, before Castro came in to power. Well, he left with his wife, Frederica, for the USA. While he maintained several places of residence, he spent very little money on expensive things. His favorite past time was playing with an r/c car. He liked to play with an r/c car and he spent money on servants, but he did not own expensive watches, expensive cars or anything. Even though he knew how to fly a plane, he did not own a plane. He just flew one in the military, but he gave it up, afterward. From then on, the closest he got to a plane was being on the board of Braniff International Airways, but he was on many boards and he really did not work, although he was trained an an investment Banker, he did not really work as an I- Banker, either. He played with r/c cars. He loved to play with r/c cars. Apparently, Frederica really loved Alberto, so I imagine she really liked rich men... into playing with r/c cars. They will not miss the money. [wink]
I think it is a great idea, but to low. More like 25,000/k a year.
OK, so no one can make more than $25k/year?
With that kind of wage structure, I am pretty sure jobs will come back to the USA.
Wait, no more than I could make were I ambitious - no more than 22,500 so I could blame everyone else.
How about this mandatory 3 tier wage scale:
Laborers - $30K per year
'Knowledge' worker (engineer, doctor, etc) - $45K per year.
Leaders (professor, actor, TV news anchor) - $500K per year.
Another stupid troll is stupid.
Give us your ideal wage and tax structure Dalton. You want the status quo with just a few tweaks?
Stupid troll is still stupid.
You should give this issue your best effort rather than just copy and paste a pseudo pithy rejoinder.
Er ... why? You're just another stupid troll, why should I make any particular effort for you?
Stop thinking of yourself, make a better effort for OWS.
Why even post in a 'wage caps' thread if all you do is paste the same old "stupid troll' schtick. That is trolling of the lamest order.
Actually, being a stupid lame troll is trolling of the lamest order. Pointing out that you are a stupid lame troll is a public service, albeit not a very fatiguing one.
But what are you doing here? Apparently you wish to tell lies ... er, why? I understand why I wish to tell the truth, but I am baffled when it comes to understanding your motivation.
All that wasted bandwidth talking about trolling when you could simply contribute your idea of what a fair wage and tax scale should be. That is the focus of this thread.
What is this wonderful 'truth' that you hold so dear, tell us, we want to hear how great it is.
When you point the troll finger at someone, you have three crooked, scaly troll fingers pointing back at yourself.
You do whine a lot, don't you?
None of your sentences state any facts.
The last thing from your account sounded like a bot generated phrase.
How about giving us your so called 'truth' as your first actual statement with some content other than an attack or that 'stupid troll' text string you paste all over this board.
I write coherent, direct statements.
Your credibility just jumped the shark with that immature taunt.
I can see how you would be averse to factual statements.
Why should laborers make so little? Why should professors make so much?
Good point, It's just that I noticed a lot of OWS participants feel like their college degree should count for something.
Degree in what? Is it something Wall Street is interested in or is it touchy feely liberal arts crap that doesn't sell?
Anyway, back to my point, why not a flat $30k for everyone? No more income inequality. We will have a paradise in the USA.
Hell no. What gives you the right?
haha nice name realamerican, and i totally agree. wheres the constitution in all of this? roasting in the fireplace?
For starters, I would like to see the Progressive Tax actually work on the 1%- 600,000 pay ZERO Income Tax. Cut In-Half all Tax Breaks: Income Sheltering, Exclusions, Exemptions, Caps and Itemized Deductions.
Unless you raise people up to a living wage, you can't cap the wages of the higher income earners. Many families have one higher wage earner and then the underpaid earner (usually the wife) and with those two incomes, they eek out an existence and pay their mortgage.
Do they really? If you think of the world at large, they are not really eeking out an existence. They are living like kings and queens.
Anyway, what about income inequality? How do we solve that?
Yes, you can go to Zillow.com and put in towns and cities in states all across America and see all the houses for sale, most of them in foreclosure. It is is shocking what is happening in America. There are people living well here, most of the new construction is for luxury homes. The wages have to come up for those not making a living from working one job. There has to be a re-thinking that all jobs are important. Would anyone want to live in an area where their trash was not collected, you cannot put everything down the disposal in the kitchen; many people not even have that in their kitchens.
I think it is unfair to say that there should be no wealthier people than others and it is not realistic. Their experience, contributions to their work merit them to be receiving the compensation that they earn. It is really income envy in some cases that people complain about it.
An example is hospitals want to cut health care costs, so because an Anesthesiologist makes a large salary, they want to use Nurses who are trained in Anesthesia in the operating room, instead. If I need an operation, I want a Doctor who has the proper training, not a Nurse Anesthethist. Is he worth $300,000 a year. Yes, he is. He is doing the same job that the Nurse Anesthetist will do for less pay, but it is not an inequality, because of his level of training and expertise and what he contributes to his work.
Educating people is an important way to raise them up. Society needs to value people more. They pay actors and actresses huge amounts of money, that is more important than educating people.
Cultural and societal priorities need to change, it is not just income inequality. What do most people do with their extra money? Waste it on useless things. They waste their time, their minds and their money. They value things instead of life and the lives of others who are sufferring from poverty, lack of hope.
we dont... theres NO SUCH THING. as long as a minimum wage exists, you pretty much earn what you deserve. work hard, get promoted, and youll make more. be a lazy a-hole like yourself and you will get "slave wage" as you like to call it.
But that's not true. Do you think people who scrub toilets in hotels ever earn much regardless of how hard they work?
yes, if they work enough hours and show commitment they will be promoted. believe it or not, most people do start from the bottom. even the elite started from the bottom at some point in their family's past.
That not how it works in the real world. No one is going to promote a factory worker to CEO one day.
no, but you dont have to be CEO to be successful and happy
But you told me that hard work always gets one promoted. Is that not the case? I am very disappointed because I was getting optimistic that everyone will be able to become a CEO in America as long as they work hard. Seems like working hard is not the ticket after all.
hard work and smart work gets people promoted.
anyone can work hard.
intelligence and wisdom unfortunately, is part environment but also part genetics.
Well you are completely ignorant if you think everyone can be CEO, and that you have to be CEO to be wealthy and happy. actually, you don't even need to be wealthy to be happy!
No need to go so damn far. We don't need equal. Just reasonable.
We have been mislead by Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, Bush Jr, Obama, and nearly every other public figure. Economic growth, job creation, and actual prosperity are not necessarily a package deal. In fact, the first two are horribly misunderstood. Economic growth/loss (GDP) is little more than a measure of domestic wealth changing hands. A transfer of currency from one party to another. The rate at which it is traded. This was up until mid ’07′ however, has never been a measure of actual prosperity. Neither has job creation. The phrase itself has been thrown around so often, and in such a generic political manner, that it has come to mean nothing. Of course, we need to have certain things done for the benefit of society as a whole. We need farmers, builders, manufacturers, transporters, teachers, cops, firefighters, soldiers, mechanics, sanitation workers, doctors, managers, and visionaries. Their work is vital. I’ll even go out on a limb and say that we need politicians, attorneys, bankers, investors, and entertainers. In order to keep them productive, we must provide reasonable incentives. We need to compensate each by a fair measure for their actual contributions to society. We need to provide a reasonable scale of income opportunity for every independent adult, every provider, and share responsibility for those who have a legitimate need for aid. In order to achieve and sustain this, we must also address the cost of living and the distribution of wealth. Here, we have failed miserably. The majority have already lost their home equity, their financial security, and their relative buying power. The middle class have actually lost much of their ability to make ends meet, re-pay loans, pay taxes, and support their own economy. The lower class have gone nearly bankrupt. In all, its a multi-trillion dollar loss taken over about 30 years. Millions are under the impression that we need to create more jobs simply to provide more opportunity. as if that would solve the problem. It won’t. Not by a longshot. Jobs don’t necessarily create wealth. In fact, they almost never do. For the mostpart, they only transfer wealth from one party to another. A gain here. A loss there. Appreciation in one community. Depreciation in another. In order to create net wealth, you must harvest a new resource or make more efficient use of one. Either way you must have a reliable and ethical system in place to distribute that newly created wealth in order to benefit society as a whole and prevent a lagging downside. The ‘free market’ just doesn’t cut it. Its a farce. Many of the jobs created are nothing but filler. The promises empty. Sure, unemployment reached an all-time low under Bush. GDP reached an all-time high. But those are both shallow and misleading indicators. In order to gauge actual prosperity, you must consider the economy in human terms. As of ’08′ the average American was working more hours than the previous generation with far less equity to show for it. Consumer debt, forclosure, and bankruptcy were also at all-time highs. As of ’08′, every major American city was riddled with depressed communities, neglected neighborhoods, failing infrastructures, lost revenue, and gang activity. All of this has coincided with massive economic growth and job creation. Meanwhile, the rich have been getting richer and richer and richer even after taxes. Our nation’s wealth has been concentrated. Again, this represents a multi-trillion dollar loss taken by the majority. Its an absolute deal breaker. Bottom line: With or without economic growth or job creation, you must have a system in place to prevent too much wealth from being concentrated at the top. Unfortunately, we don’t. Our economy has become nothing but a giant game of Monopoly. The richest one percent of Americans already own nearly 1/2 of all US wealth. An all-time high. More than double their share before Reagan took office. The lower 90 percent of Americans own less than 10 percent of all US wealth. An all-time low. Still, the rich want more. They absolutely will not stop. Now, our society as a whole is in serious jeapordy. Greed kills.
Those of you who agree on these major issues are welcome to summarize this post, copy it, link to it, save it, show a friend, or spread the word in any fashion. I don't care who takes the credit. We are up against a tiny but very powerful minority who have more influence on the masses than any other group in history. They have the means to reach millions at once with outrageous political and commercial propaganda. Those of us who speak the ugly truth must work incredibly hard just to be heard.
Do you think so?
I don't think there should be any wage caps. But I can't think of any other way to lower income inequality.
No.
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Stupid troll is stupid.
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It is actually fairly obvious to "profess" that stupid people are stupid. However, I shall quite understand if this concept is beyond your grasp. What with your mental problems and all.
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If you regard it as a "delusion" to "profess" that stupid people are stupid, you may be beyond my help, or anyone's help. If you cannot even understand tautologies ... what can be done with you?
On the other hand, it makes you a fine representative of the opponents of OWS.
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First things first. Once you've figured out how to use apostrophes, I'll guide you towards a deeper understanding of the English language. But if you really want to understand the concept of "tautology", you could always look it up --- if that is something that you know how to do. There's this website called "Google", you may have heard of it.
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Behold ... conservatism!
tbh, by engaging with mikeyD, i couldn't which one of you is a troll
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Mocking stupid trolls is one of the many pleasures of not being stupid. If you don't understand that, then that would be consistent with the estimate that I have already formed of your ability to understand things.
The soviets would send such folks to Siberia, now we don't have Siberia but we do have Texas.
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That's the problem with police states and wage caps and such. Corruption is inevitable. I like capitalist democracies like the USA instead where I can make as much money as I want, legally.
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I think we need better laws and better law enforcement. Anyone who gets rich by breaking the law should go to jail. But anyone who gets rich merely by offshoring jobs is fine in my book. Offshoring jobs is not and should not be against the law.
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I think they're inevitable.
12k? Thats pretty much poverty why do you think that? And also why do you think forcing people and companies to ONLY pay 12k a year is constitutional?? You really want to go see a doctor that makes 12k a year? haha. ill miss ya buddy.
What's a fair wage for a doctor?
I'd say however much the hospital wants to hire them for. because the government and everyone else has no right to say! i see no problem in someone in one of the hardest fields, with loan and malpractice bills to cover, getting paid 100, 200, even 500k a year. they EARNED it. something alot of OWS people dont quite grasp.
What about income inequality?
what about the Constitution of the United States...? income inequality is BULL. you get paid for what you do. Nobody wants to be socialist except people who feel "entitled" to more than what they deserve. you want alot of money? WORK HARD for it.
What if I work hard but only get paid slave wages?
Thats life! Keep at it, and your pay WILL get better. the people that are willing to work hard get promoted, no matter what you do. and dont call it that, slaves DONT get paid.
Illegal immigrants worked so hard yet all they got was a deportation notice. Now there is no one to pick apples.
there are plenty of americans to do that job. and why shouldnt they? Its perfectly easy to get a LEGAL visa to come work in america. If an american did something ILLEGAL, they would also be punished. see the logic?
Point is that you can be the hardest working apple picker but you will never earn more than serf wages.
then you search for another job. working hard doesnt necessarily mean work hard at the SAME job. move up in the world if you work hard enough
Can everyone be the CEO?