Forum Post: US veterans assualt NATO summit, hurl medals
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 29, 2012, 9:41 a.m. EST by arturo
(3169)
from Shanghai, Shanghai
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
In the shadow of the Nato summit, under the watchful eyes of a phalanx of full-black-clad riot police, dozens of former servicemen and women in uniform, veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, threw away their medals, with apologies. Some shared their pain, their torments, their nightmares. Others chanted Occupy slogans.
Remember the marine sergeant who stood up to the police for OWS protestors about a year ago? It seems that veterans are a natural ally for the protest movement. If a civil war comes to the US, wouldn't it be better to have these guys on the side of the 99%?
Occupy the election. Vote against war. Vote for anybody but a Democrat or Republican. Nothing will change until we vote according to our values. Our choices are not limited to the 2 they choose for us.
U R Right !! Both corporate parties want war and we do have choices. Good post - kudos
MY values have nothing to do with believing in the US electoral system. They do however have something to do with wanting to hand the white supremacists, the gay bashers, those who say rape is a gift from their god, the mormons who believe that dark skin is a sign of their god's punishment being given, etc. So I hold my nose and vote against Mitt the lying ass Mormon racist.
Steller post 'arturo'! There is clear evidence that veterans and current military now understand that they are not fighting for freedom but are doing nothing more than helping to align nations for the oligarchs to line their pockets. I think the backlash may be very scary for the .01%. Their only choice is to make restitution so that they can live harmoniously, in a 'people's society' where they can walk among us as part of the 100%...otherwise, it doesn't look too good for them.
Thank you, that's the reason why I posted this here. To begin showing people here that many in the military are beginning to change. As you probably know, there are US generals who are coming out in opposition to war now.
I sensed that there may be generals against further war,otherwise I think that the big one would have started by now...but have not read of any by name. Do you know who in particular?
Yes, that would be Martin Dempsey:
Dempsey Stands Firm Against Nuclear War: Again Rules Out Military Action Against Syria http://larouchepac.com/node/23520
Israeli Commentator: General Dempsey Is a 'Responsible Adult' http://larouchepac.com/node/23650
Dempsey, Chiefs, U.S., and Israeli Military in All-Out Mobilization against Israeli attack on Iran http://larouchepac.com/node/23546
Dempsey Stands Firm Against Nuclear War: Again Rules Out Military Action Against Syria http://larouchepac.com/node/23520
Panetta, Dempsey Pour Cold Water on War Drive http://larouchepac.com/node/23640
Well Arturo...I so hope you're right about this. I have a hard time seeing someone with this much power rising through the ranks and not being compromised into submission by the oligarchs, the same way other high ranking people in government are compromised.
The jury is still out for me. I think I will believe his 'no more war' stance better, if after the elections there is no further strikes. O discombobulations....
Thanks, I hope so too.
Define "many". Are you talking about vets who used to be "in the military" or are you talking about people who are still on active duty "in the military" or both?
US Generals-how many?
I don't know of any Generals or soldiers personally who LOVE WAR and can't wait to get out there and spill some blood. Not even one. Do you?
Yes, I remember reading about some soldiers who had volunteered to go to Afghanistan and were pretty eager to fight.
If you continue reading below, you'll see that Martin Dempsey is opposing further wars.
You "remember reading about"....
Then the answer to my question is "NO, I don't know of any soldiers personally who love war and couldn't wait to get out there".
Yes, Dempsey doesn't want to start another war. Again, most soldiers I know don't. But he LED forces in several wars didn't he? What do you think he would do if he was younger and active duty and was called upon to lead forces in war again tomorrow? Any evidence to support your reply would be nice.
Again....define "many" as you used it here:
"To begin showing people here that many in the military are beginning to change".
I'd also like to see all the evidence you have to support the implied idea that most or all of the military used to love and embrace war eagerly, which is what makes people like Dempsey "stand out" as being different from them.
Whatever soldiers that there were, who were eager to get into to war, I believe did so because they were brainwashed by the mass media. Its the people who sponsor the mass media who love war and can't wait to get our soldiers into it.
So Dempsey did lead forces in several wars, I'm glad he has seen the light.
By "many" I mean all those people who are or were in the military, but who are now in opposition to further military ventures, and are expressing their opinions via websites such as Veterans Today.
By "beginning to change" what I mean is not that they originally loved war and killing other people, but rather that they were previously brainwashed into believing that they were fighting for a worthy cause.
Dempsey retired from active duty. All soldiers do. He's still working for the government and has the same boss he did when he was active.
And you're apparently an expert on brainwashing by the mass media too. I can't wait to see your credentials and research. What is to keep the mass media from brainwashing people living here in the States to start a war against each other???
Again, how "many" people were or are in the military are there who are now in opposition to further military ventures? Hundreds? Thousands?
Since you are so enlightened on how people can be effectively brainwashed, why shouldn't I suspect that you are secretly just trying to brainwash people into believing that fighting for what YOU want is a worthy cause? How do we know you aren't working for the Mass Media on their newest war project-"FIGHT THE 1%"!!! There are certainly a lot of people who seem "eager" to get into it!
hypocrite.
Dempsey's position hasn't change, but apparently his outlook has.
I don't claim to have any special credentials. I'm a person here expressing my opinion, just like you.
The media could indeed brainwash the people into starting a civil war or revolution. There is a long history of the financial oligarchy instigating civil wars and revolutions. That is, they co-opt and twist movements which once had a legitimate cause.
I don't know how many people in the military are expressing opposition to further military ventures, how could I know? It does appear that a substantial number of them are expressing such opinions in Veterans today though.
It is a good thing to question and suspect everybody. I've questioned and suspected myself for many years now. I always try to remain open to re-evaluating my perspective. Do you?
Or are you a hypocrite?
Oh I question myself every day. Any intelligent person would. That's why FACTS are so important. They prevent people like me from jumping into the arms of every conspiracy theory or cause that comes floating down the pipe every day. They keep me from joining groups or following blindly after people who just blow crap out into the universe every day trying to entice me to one position or another.
But hey, while we're talking about how easy it is to brainwash people, and how GOOD at it the "financial oligarchy" is at it...what if they just bypassed the whole co-opting of a "legitimate cause" thing all together and just created a movement that people THOUGHT was a legitimate cause right from the start? Wouldn't that be even MORE evil, more crafty, MORE intelligent, more evolved than waiting around for legitimate movements to start on their own and THEN going to all the effort to co-opt and try to get it to change direction?
Or do you think this financial oligarchy just isn't that smart yet?
Often when I make a post here, a few people tell me "thanks" or "great post". I do this for them. If you disagree, that's fine, I'm quite used to people disagreeing with me.
I used to tell people we were going to have an economic crisis, and they disagreed, but the crisis still happened. I don't think I'm always right, but I do have the right to express my opinion just like anyone else.
As far as the financial oligarchy creating movements that people think are legitimate, they have already done that on many occasions.
The amount of people in the military who back Ron Paul is very telling.
The veterans who back Paul give me hope. I really believe we have to vote for anybody but the Democratic or Republican candidate. The powers that be have everything under their control. The only power we have is to vote for other than the 2 choices they have chosen for us.
How many people in the military back Ron Paul? How does that number compare to the entire military? What does it tell us?
I saw a Ron Paul youtube (sorry I can't be more precise than that) that said more veterans contributed $ to Paul than all other candidates combined. The quotes in it made it sound like the vets felt betrayed and wanted the country to get back to the constitution.
Well if you saw it on youtube then it HAS to be true. Especially when the quotes make it sound true.
I suggest that you go to a military town and speak to a few members of the military. I think you'd find that you're badly mistaken here. Most service members are highly patriotic in the most traditional sense of the word, and the majority, perhaps a large majority, are politically conservative. Most assuredly, they don't buy into leftist theories about financial oligarchies. If anything, they're down on Obama because they think he's a liberal wimp. The ex-servicemen and women at these demonstrations are a small minority.
If you don't believe me, test it out. Go into a G.I. bar in some military town down in the south and talk some OWS trash to the G.I.'s there. See how receptive they are.
What is your cynical mission here, given that you think OWS is trash?
There will always be a broad spectrum in any military unit...but there is no mistaking that the military is waking up. Thanks to the Ruling Elite's help with the invention of the PC and tech, this is the first time in history that soldiers have such access to social media in a wartime setting. The lion is out of its cage, and there is no going back.
Good they're down on Obama. One down and one to go. They're both horrible puppets working for the same puppet masters...but you probably already know that. If the repubs get in, then it won't be long before those in the G.I. bars understand that its the same story, no matter who is sitting in the oval office.
It happened in Vietnam. Soldiers knew they had been used, even without social media to help them along.
Your comment may have been true ten years ago...but I think that most military and veterans today understand that the world doesn't look upon the US in a good light any more, and upon blood-drenched bombing, country after country...they are just sick of war.
I trust you are talking to every G.I. that you have access to, and telling them the truth.
People, on the whole, have a natural human desire to be harmonious and peaceful, and live their lives from a place within them that is deeply loving.
And then there are these...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKqb03pCAAQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6TlQbuLjIU&playnext=1&list=PL28E3CD6F261E2EA4&feature=results_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb50-ouA-IA&feature=BFa&list=PLB9FE42FDCEFA73B8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcMk3V3LZcQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwoVOSdElx4&feature=BFa&list=PLB9FE42FDCEFA73B8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1X9HsotKag&feature=BFa&list=PLB9FE42FDCEFA73B8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY2e2EfZwIc&feature=BFa&list=PL28E3CD6F261E2EA4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4te0C4NT2H0&playnext=1&list=PL28E3CD6F261E2EA4&feature=results_video
He used to be on the 'inside,' I believe. Sometimes it's hard to see the full view when you can only look out the windows.
Sometimes, when animals(or people) have been kept in captivity (oppressed) for a long time and they are given the option of freedom...out of fear, they opt to stay with what they know. A psychological barrier can be just as debilitating as a cage... in which case, one must feel sorry for them.
I saw an interview on 'rt' today that reiterated that soldiers today are more aware than ever. I'm comfortably sure of my opinion on this.
So good to see you on the forum again 'gnomunny'!
Gnomunny? Why so formal? I thought we were . . . heh heh, just kidding.
I'm pretty sure you're right as well. I've seen similar stories. And you've been doing a lot of homework lately it seems. One must understand, soldiers pledge to defend the Constitution and the US against ALL enemies. Unlike days of old, where a lot of military men came from rural, uneducated, and sometimes questionable backgrounds ("Join the Army or go to jail.") today's soldiers are no dummies. A lot see what's going on as being unconstitutional, illegal, highly questionable and sometimes downright treasonous. I've heard some say they will not fire on American citizens here even if ordered to. If and when SHTF, I'll bet (I hope) a lot will do just what they promised. To defend the US and its Constitution, not the criminals now in control.
Haha! We are....but not everyone on the forum knows that. Lol!
At least people had a chance to think for themselves before signing up for the army. These days, the indoctrination is starting so young. The militarization of our kids is what I'm concerned about. A couple of weeks ago I had a post up about the militarization of our youth and I got such a visceral response that I took the post down. I should have left it up.
I'll have to get back to you on that...don't know why, but my computer is disagreeable right now and won't let me pull up any links. That's never happened before.
Indoctrination today is downright spooky. With the technology that's available, and the lists of student names that the schools are 'encouraged' to give the military now, with the understanding that if they don't hand over the names, they risk losing school funding. Courtesy of the 'No Child Left Behind' policy.
No links dammit!
Yes, you should have left that post up (didn't get a chance to see it btw). Also see my post from a few months back if you missed it:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-military-entertainment-complex/
This militarism of society is becoming epidemic, and kids are prime targets.
Gotta sign off. Talk to you tomorrow.
Yes...you wrote a brilliant thread and I'm very familiar with it. I included it with my sources on the Youth Militarization thread. Oh, by the way...do you mind if I include your thread on the "Military Entertainment Complex" on a thread I'm thinking about on the 'Militarization of our Youth'? Heehee!
I'll cost ya!
I would be happy to see it get spread around and reused. Even to other websites if possible. I'm pretty insecure and humble in real life (honestly, no sarcasm), but I do think that thread is pretty damn good. Guess I was inspired that day for some reason. And it's pretty important, scary stuff if the full picture is really grasped. What did you think about the UK link (Forceswatch, I think) about the British schools, camo day and that crap?
Lol!! You funny!
I don't know...I've seen you go after some of these guys!
The 'Forceswatch' link made me very uneasy, and frankly...just...sad.
The military is clearly doing all they can to circumvent any discussion at all regarding alternatives to war. That is very telling.
The military has gotten so deeply infiltrated into the fabric of our schools and society...with hardly a word from the people that should be helping to keep our kids safe...our teachers. I'm sure that the majority of them think they are doing just that...protecting them. I am not angry with the teachers...for they know not what they do.
There is hope though...so long as we can keep our social media...and so long as we have groups like 'Forceswatch', and 'MEChA" that Matt forwarded to me today. We just gotta keep on keepin' on.
Hey, I just got done reading that VT article and bookmarked it so I can read it again. Never saw it before. I love that 'connections' type shit. I'm not sure about part of it though because at the beginning he gets some of the petroleum company's names wrong, kind of. "Exxon Mobil" and "Chevron Texaco" didn't exist in those incarnations in 1917. He may have just been using today's names, but that wouldn't be historically accurate. Kind of fast and loose, know what I mean? Exxon Mobil is directly descended from Standard Oil so I wonder why he didn't just say Standard? That would've made the Rockefeller connection far clearer to readers that might not have known that it later became (kind of) Exxon Mobil. And although royal Dutch Shell was formed by a merger in 1907 as a direct rival to Standard Oil, it shouldn't surprise anyone if they decided to join in a business deal with the other biggies in the oil business ten years later to pretty much control the world's total oil supply. So, my nitpicking about the names doesn't necessarily mean the whole story's wrong, of course.
And what about the part where Uncle Adolf does something to piss off the elite, and that's why we went in and kicked his ass? Hmmm, I recall someone on this forum saying something like that a few months ago, saying something like "I know this sounds off-the-wall, but . . ." hehhehheh. As far as his supposed "relationship" to the < name censored, lol > family, that's iffy, of course, but veeeerry interesting. A cook or house-cleaner in a wealthy family's home that winds up pregnant doesn't mean it's a family member considering the number of males that would have periodically came and went. A viable sample of that boy's DNA would be worth gold. Of course it would never come to light because people would be demanding a comparison to Merkel. There's so much good stuff in that article, i think I'll read it again tomorrow and do some web surfing to check some names and such.
Glad you liked the article...and thank you for your objective brain.
I can't type any more tonight.....dreams beckon.
G'nite
Andrea Potts - King of the Mountain
MECHA has been protesting recruiting in High Schools in San Diego
MECHA is sooooo brilliant! Thanks Matt! These students are informed, impassioned and BRAVE. Below is an excerpt.
Thanks for the song Matt...I love music. The lyrics are very synchronized with the thoughts of some of our young military people. The song has an "Indigo Girls" influence to it.
MECHA excerpt;
"When presenting the MEChA members with their award, Andy Griggs, the caucus co-chair, told the audience that these students had achieved something incredible: at their young age, they were able to bring about important changes to school district policies. He was referring to several victories in the San Diego Unified School District. They included closing down the district’s eleven JROTC shooting ranges, imposing strict limitations on military recruiting in all San Diego schools, and reinforcing the need for parent consent before students enroll in JROTC. None of these achievements would have been possible without the students, who spoke at school board meetings, rallied supporters outside of district offices, helped form a new coalition (Education Not Arms), petitioned the community and conducted important outreach and education with their peers.
On the train ride to LA, which was paid for by the San Diego teachers’ union, the seven students huddled in two facing seats to write their acceptance speech. This being the first train ride for most of them, the distractions of the scenery -- along with the absence of their MEChA faculty sponsor -- could have produced a mediocre speech. It did not. Their speech, given by Luis Osuna, drew supportive applause from the audience several times. In its introduction were these words:
"In MEChA, we fight for the well being of every student. We know that above everything else comes a student's right to an equal education. With these ideals we take action upon injustices in our community."
Tears came to many eyes.
Each year since 2007, different students have stepped forward at Mission Bay High to continue the struggles of those who graduate from the school. Wanting to understand what motivates these young activists, I recently spoke to some of them. I asked several questions: What did the award mean to them? What triggers and sustains their enthusiasm? What makes them think about and understand the need to organize? Do they see a need to create more student activism? How do they cultivate more student interest?
Nancy Cruz was a senior at Mission Bay High in 2007 when the principal invited the Marine Corps to set up a JROTC unit at the campus, including a shooting range for marksmanship training. Already very active in MEChA and other community organizations, Nancy became the natural leader. Her energy and dedication were endless, as she spent many hours explaining to other students, one-on-one, why they needed to get involved. Nancy, now a senior at UCLA, responded to our questions:
"It is fundamental to continue to influence younger students to advocate for themselves. I grew up with my mom having to work seven days a week. She would come home too tired to always make the school meetings. She would try to go to all of the open houses, but sometimes my sisters and I would feel it was too much to ask. For this reason, I believe that although it is important for parents to be involved in their child's education, students need to take a greater initiative in order to make up for the forced absence of their parents. At the end of the day, it is OUR future. It has been three years since I graduated from Mission Bay High School, but it seems like students and parents are still struggling to be acknowledged. I urge more students to get involved because the political is personal. School politics will impact our futures and that is why it is our responsibility to organize and create collective change."
David Morales was one year behind Nancy in school. In his senior year, his speeches at San Diego school board meetings and rallies were quite amazing. The school board closed all the JROTC shooting ranges, and the superintendent implemented a parent consent procedure for enrollment in JROTC. Just days before David was to graduate, the principal, basing her decision on a ridiculous technicality, refused to allow David to walk in the graduation ceremony. In response, a school board member who was scheduled to officiate boycotted the event, and protesters marched outside in support of David. Now entering his third year at UC San Diego, David commented:
"I think that what motivates me to continue to do this work is my surroundings, witnessing the need for change in my community. I see that my people do not get an equal or dignified treatment when in school, or at work, or in everyday life. It fills me with the need to do something -- to organize with them and change those current situations. This then has become a way of life, something that I have dedicated my life to and that I always carry with me. Whenever I have the opportunity to talk to another student or to a mother or father in the community about our struggles and work, I do so. Being part of important victories, such as being able to remove shooting ranges from all high school campuses in [San Diego], makes me understand that it is possible, que sí podemos. We as people do have much power."
More profound student answers...
http://www.comdsd.org/article_archive/NewGenerationOfActivismJuly-2011.html
try
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save the link as text only
then copy and paste the link from notepad into the browser
Mitt suggested we give citizenship to illegal immigrants that serve in the military
I saw that concept on that website I checked out of jrhirsch that matches your views with that of the candidates. It's an intriguing concept.
it's a merc recruit grab
the military doesn't need to report on dead mercs.... just how much they spend on them.
Lol. Good. With the money they make and what they get away with they can just disappear.
the military could make money through organ harvesting
Halliburton made profits on human-trafficking
challenge to case against the Nato 3
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/14831-nato-3-case-challenges-constitutionality-of-state-terrorism-statutes
Not a bit. You misconstrue my remarks. Talking trash is talking smack. It has nothing to do with the quality of the information being conveyed. Check out the urban dictionary if you need additional clarification on this point.
I happen to know a lot of military folks, I come from a military family, and have several relatives in the military at the moment, and a number of ex-military in the family; and I talk with them a lot, and through them with a lot of other military folks. I also have occasion through my work to speak with military folks in other venues quite regularly. I'm wasn't taking a position here one way or the other on whether these wars are good or bad (I am, in fact, opposed to them), but I stand by my remarks -- the average military person has a much different world-view from the one that you posit they have.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. This is a very curious situation. Can you give us any insight?
It looks like you're in a beautiful position to talk some sense into the military people you know. Are you doing anything about that? If so, what's the best way, in your opinion, to broach the subject with them? Is it best to go one on one, or in a group setting? Are there any military people within your circle that are awake yet? If so, are they doing anything to let others know?
Well, I think it's pretty straightforward. The average military person comes from a relatively conservative background, comes to the military young, and comes to the military with a strong sense of traditional patriotism. And many of them, at least when they are younger, like the idea of the excitement of war (or at least they think they do when they start out -- that often changes when people start dying). But all of them, young and old, are not so much interested in the geopolitical underpinning of war as they are concerned with fighting the war properly in the technical, military sense.
It's not that they mind dying, and it's not that they are concerned over the reasons for which the war is being fought. As soldiers, they often take the attitude that that's not really their business -- they're in the business of fighting their country's wars, and as professionals, that's what they mean to do when so ordered.
What they mind is dying or being crippled needlessly or pointlessly, in half-fought wars and missions with no apparent purpose, and when restraint in using combat power puts them at risk for no apparent gain. Ask a man who's been on the front line in Iraq or Afghanistan, and he's likely to tell you that what he'd prefer is the much more aggressive use of deadly force, rather than less, and much more permissive rules of engagement than he is now permitted, because if you're really trying to win a war, that's what you do. And that's the very sort of complaint you hear about the second gulf war or Afghanistan.
So it's difficult to argue with them that a war is wrong or needless, they tend not to care about that so much. Rather, they are bothered when it's stupidly waged, and the politicians have them out there risking their necks in a war that politicians aren't really trying to win. What they really want to talk about is how to fight it in a way that permits them to win. So when you argue the underlying politics, you're likely to get either disinterest, or a relatively conservative and traditionally patriotic response defending the war and citing all of the stock reasons -- defending our freedom, etc., etc. It's rather like the arguments you've perhaps seen me getting into around here. The folks I argue with tend to come into the argument with a pre-existing point of view they're prepared to defend vary strongly, and they tend to stick with that viewpoint regardless of what facts and logic I might bring to bear. So too with the military guys -- I go round and round with them sometimes, but most generally to no avail.
So if I were trying to persuade a military man or woman, I'd go light on geopolitics, and heavy on the argument that the politicians are incompetent bunglers who can't and won't prosecute a war properly, and who are going to get them killed or maimed without actually accomplishing anything. That's what really bothers them.
If a civil war comes to the US, wouldn't it be better to have these guys on the side of the 99%?
Absolutely !! After all ................ they are us. They and their families are a component of the 99%. They are "Patriots".
Imagine the mental torment these people went through after joining the service for such a noble cause - To defend America - Because they trusted America - To having to accept the fact that they put their lives on the line and were duped into enlisting as hit men for the biggest crime syndicate in history.
“No amount of medals, ribbons, or flags can cover the amount of human suffering caused by this war.”
And yeah - Two thumbs up to that sergeant last year !!
"If the appeal to arms is made, it will depend entirely on the disposition of the army whether it issue in liberty or despotism." --Thomas Jefferson
Thanks, I agree. Apparently there are people from the intelligence agencies who are similarly changing their outlooks. My hope is that people like this could ally with the protest movement and perhaps provide the leadership to make change happen.
Well, I don't know about you all but I wouldn't trust too many Vets to come to our aid....Most have been shunned by the previous administrations and are mad as hell! So, it will be a rare breed that stands up for the 99%.....and then again...which part of the 99% are you all referring to?
Here's a hint at why I refuse to accept too much of anything you all state on here! "the Klavern notorious for its involvement in what is known as the Mississippi Burning case. Howard, a 31-year-old former Marine and Iraq war veteran was presiding over men, women and even children deep in the woods enjoying a barbeque, target practice, the “naturalization” of a new member, and finally, the burning of a 16-foot cross – a ritual that has been used to terrorize blacks and others for decades — " http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/10/nightline-takes-a-rare-look-inside-the-new-kkk/
Most of these members live amongst us, frequent this forum, and run our governments, national, local, and municipal entities.
Be careful who spoon feeds you and what you want to believe in, or should I say who you want to believe in.
So you want to paint ALL military people as being affiliated with the KKK because of one former Marine's actions? That's an extremely narrow view and truly isn't fair, to say the least. Actually it's way over the top.
Read my post carefully, and then when you do that re-read it again.
I come from a military family....Air Force, my son is in the Army National Guard and most of my family members and family friends are and were in the military, Marines, Coast Guard, etc. I know they are loyal to the USA and would do no harm to any citizens or civilians or otherwise and love their country, in fact they go further to have jobs to help their communities, not harm. No where did I say anything about ALL military people being affiliated with the KKK because my family and friends would not be admitted as members into the KKK or any other subversive white radical group, if you get my drift.
"Most of these members live amongst us, frequent this forum, and run our governments, national, local, and municipal entities." So, what people or victims do the KKK seek to do harm to? What do you think? And....."So, it will be a rare breed that stands up for the 99%".....and then again...which part of the 99% are you all referring to I ask again?
Who are you really talking about when referring to the 99%?
Good post arturo.
veteranstoday is just a website it doesn't represent vets.
lol
Never trust anyone in a uniform. Your're either one of them or you're not.
This happened in May and was discussed in this forum was it not?
To YOU "it seems that veterans are a natural ally for the protest movement"...how many veterans do you know personally? I know a lot, retired and active duty, and they don't look upon the protest movement with any fondness.
Since 99.9% of those who serve in the US Military are NOT part of the 1%, you can pretty much just outright state that they are part of the 99%. If a civil war comes to the US, they'll decide for themselves which side they are on and then put their lives on the line to defend that side.
I think its counter productive to instigate division when unity is what is needed.
Then stop using words like "the side of the 99%" and "civil war". Stop using designations such as "sane" and "out of it's mind". Stop dividing people into categories which are INTENTIONALLY opposites of each other.
Hypocrite.
The 99% is the unity that we seek, its opposition is the global financial oligarchy. They are the ones who have decided to divide themselves off from the rest of us.
Civil war is seen as a real possibility by some in the military whether I talk about it or not.
Unity is the solution to a world that is not "sane". Our society has been intentionally fragmented into a multiplicity of ideologies, much like a mental patient with multiple personalities.
Something about this posts apparently bugs you quite a bit. Perhaps you don't like seeing leftists aligning themselves with the US military.
Hypocrite.
So you'll admit you don't want COMPLETE unity, which is 100%.
Civil war is a possibility. Is this you protesting against it?
Your constant inconsistencies are what bug me about all of your posts. You know, like when you assume to know what I like or don't like. For example, I'd say there's a big difference between leftists aligning themselves with former US Military soldiers who are now against war and the actual "US Military" itself. That's why I keep asking you to define "many".
Why do you keep avoiding the question? Exaggerator.
Oh and I'd like to see your qualifications for discussing and/or providing solutions for mental patients with multiple personality disorders on a global scale.
Sure I would like complete unity, but do you think that the financial oligarchy would allow me to join their exclusive club? I don't think so. My opinion is that they would prefer to see me, as well as most of the world's population, wiped out in a nuclear WWIII.
I would hate to see a civil war happen. But I have read in Veterans Today that some see it coming, and that it may be the only way to rid ourselves of the foreign oligarchy that has colonized our country.
If it seems that I am avoiding your question, it is probably because your question just isn't clear to me.
Who is this foreign financial oligarchy? How did they colonize our country? (you don't even live here) How do you know "what they prefer" to see, much less that they want a nuclear WW3? How do they plan to survive a nuclear war that would wipe out most of the world's population? Where will they live while the radiation dies down? Who will do their slave labor if they kill all the slaves? Where....where are they hiding the pods they arrived in.....
People who believe in the Bible have seen Armageddon coming for two thousand years. The Mayan's saw it coming even before the Greeks wrote it down. This entire scenario is nothing new to anyone who has studied history and the cultures of people since time began.
I don't WANT to join some exclusive club with oligarchs...and I think you're insane to even want to. It's even MORE insane to think you can bring down a financial oligarchy so big it's controlling the world AND so powerful it could wipe us out with nuclear weapons (your scenario not mine) with a handful of leftists and some disenchanted former soldiers.
But hey. Go ahead and poke that stick through the bars of the cage on civil war all you want to. If it bites the ass off of OWS and mails it to you in a box, just tell yourself you're not to blame because it was the ONLY WAY you could see out of this mess. Ok?
Who is the financial oligarchy? The oligarchy is composed of some of the richest people in the world, and their network of corporations. Its not completely unified, but has a number of factions that both compete and collaborate. One faction is headed by the queen of England and includes much of the European aristocracy.
I don't want to join their club, you asked about 100% unity, and I was just trying to show you that such is the last thing that they would want.
If you've studied history, you know that the last time we had an economic crisis of this degree, that it led right into WWII. This time around, its just a repetition of the same pattern. Unless it is stopped by people like Dempsey, and whoever among us is capable of helping them.
The financial oligarchy is bringing itself down through policies which have led to its own economic collapse. It wants to start WWIII because it sees nothing else it can do to maintain its dominance over the world.
They don't want to use leftists and former soldiers to bring about WWIII, and its certainly not what I want to bring about. They want to manipulate a crisis in Asia, to bring the US into a direct conflict with Russia and China. I personally believe that Russia and China should be allies of the US, as they were during the second world war.
A civil war or revolution could happen if the economic crisis continues, and US society breaks down to the point that food and basic services cannot be provided to the citizens.
At such a point, the military may have to step in to restore order. This may lead them into direct confrontation with the financial oligarchy, at which point, they will need the full support of the 99%.
The citizens have been taught (brainwashed) to believe that the government is supposed to take care of them, rescue them, protect them, and provide for them. If society breaks down to the point where food and basic services cannot be provided to the citizens, those citizens will TURN ON THEIR GOVERNMENT.
If our government has been bought out by these oligarchs, an idea for which there is plenty of evidence, then they will order the military to step in and protect them FROM the 99% who WILL be angry and desperate. Under the guise of defending the constitution and the established government, those military soldiers will most likely follow those orders.
Smart people who have seen this crisis coming for years have been preparing for it on their own. Food, water, shelter, supplies, and thanks GOD-they will not be a drain on the strained services that they would have been. They have been, and are now, preparing for the worst while hoping for the best. People who take control of their own lives and depend on themselves rather than others are the ones who are most likely to survive AND have the ability to help others.
It could happen like that.
The country I thought they were fighting for no longer exists.
arturo -
you are one of many here who post about America's miltary tansgressions
I generally agree
BUT
SPECIFICALLY
what do you propose to solve these problems ?
Pass Glass Steagall, and that would eliminate the phony money the bankers use to start wars.
Then start a New Deal style economic recovery program, building roads, fast rail, power plants, etc., and let the military train and manage the workers, like FDR did.
Expand upon this for a global program of infrastructure/economic development.
Great reply except I wouldn't trust the military to manage civilians !! I don't think the soldiers in the above article have much trust in "The Military" either.
Recently, I've been surprised to learn that many in the military currently have much the same political outlook as we do. You have top generals, for example, now coming out in opposition to further war. So, I've begun posting articles here from Veterans today to try to show this to people.
I understand that it's a mixed bag, as far as a political ideology within the military; but I would still NOT allow soldiers to "manage" civilians. There are other resources that we can tap without crossing that line.
I think that's how it was done in FDR's time.
You may be right. I dunno. Times do change though and what once worked fine, may now be problematic. It's not that I don't trust the soldiers; I don't trust the ones that tell the soldiers what to do. Besides, the main job of a soldier is to fight or operate equipment that kills. All other skills are bleed-over from that objective. They are warriors. If they were training us to be warriors, then they would be the guys for the job. I understand they have a construction division, but if your objective is to develop a recovery program, building roads, fast rail, power plants, and such, there are construction companies around the US that specialize in those type of specific projects and would love to put their engineers and crews to work. I can't remember when I've heard of the military building a fast rail or a power plant.
Hey, I don't mean to bust your balls here, and this is just my opinion. I also reserve the right to be wrong. Besides, I've been reading your posts and I think you've got some good ideas and views. It'd be pretty boring if we agreed on 100% of the issues. We'll have to settle on 99.9%.
Cheers :)
That's cool, I respect your opinion. But you did so kindly make some good points for me here. One being that if soldiers aren't going to be kept busy fighting, they'd be better off working on other kinds of crash programs like construction projects.
I think that the way a military really should function, in time of a "just" war, for example, is to win the war as quickly and painlessly as possible, for example to eliminate a corrupt or aggressive government, and then rebuild what's been destroyed as quickly as possible for the civilian population. So its important for the military to be highly efficient at construction.
And one example of military being involved in the construction of fast rail, any way, is right here in China, where many soldiers were involved in building the fast rail to Tibet. Its said that something like one soldier died for every mile of that railway built. Now, you may not like the idea of the Chinese being in Tibet, but that railway brings the biggest portion of economic pie to Tibet in an ecologically friendly manner.
Also, to build projects, the size of which I'm talking about, would require recruiting on a huge scale to accomplish huge tasks. It would involve big teams of workers camping out in the wilderness somewhere while they are engaged in construction. This is a scenario familiar to a lot of soldiers. Also, a lot of of those workers would be unskilled youth coming off the streets, and from other troubled backgrounds, who would probably benefit from some military style discipline.
After FDRs projects were complete, the workers that his programs had trained were in high demand with employers, because of the skills and discipline they had acquired.
Thanks for your comments.
Peace
Yes, working class youth were "militarized" and prepped for WWII, the big one.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/fall-1941-pearl-harbor-and-the-wars-of-corporate-america/28159
Fall 1941: Pearl Harbor and The Wars of Corporate America
By Dr. Jacques R. Pauwels
Global Research, October 27, 2012
11 December 2011 Myth: The US was forced to declare war on Japan after a totally unexpected Japanese attack on the American naval base in Hawaii on December 7, 1941. On account of Japan’s alliance with Nazi Germany, this aggression automatically brought the US into the war against Germany.
Reality: The Roosevelt administration had been eager for some time to wage war against Japan and sought to unleash such a war by means of the institution of an oil embargo and other provocations. Having deciphered Japanese codes, Washington knew a Japanese fleet was on its way to Pearl Harbor, but welcomed the attack since a Japanese aggression would make it possible to “sell” the war to the overwhelmingly anti-war American public...
Yes, I've heard this theory about FDR, but I've heard other sources claim that he was the victim rather than a perpetrator of a conspiracy. Webster Tarpley has some good videos on it:
The short version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvK-PgLuV7c
The long version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJZrUCKK3QM
BUT HOW
do you get them to pass GS ?
everyone here has ideas on what to do - but very few how to
The greatest power in the world, the financial oligarchy, opposes Glasses Steagall, so they do everything they can to prevent its passage. It appears the president and most of congress are unwilling to pass it as well.
The group I'm associated with, LPAC, has tried to run its own congressional candidates with some degree of success:
http://larouchepac.com/node/22871
We've also tried to run our own candidate for president over many decades, and while getting him to the point of a serious contender, we've failed to get him elected.
Now, perhaps you don't like my organization or our candidates, so then you have to start developing your own. This would require a group like OWS to have more specific objectives. It appears no leaders have emerged out of OWS that can accomplish anything like this so far.
Our group has opposed Wall Street for decades, and has the organization to develop political candidates, so I support them. If no other group does something comparable, I'll have to continue with that.
And what did that accomplish?
It shows that a group of veterans feel sorry about their past involvement in wars, and expressed their unwillingness to participate in further wars. This is important, its what we need to see in the entire military now, and top level military figures like Martin Dempsey are doing the same.
Ending today's wars is part of the same process of financial reform that OWS advocates.
The entire military will do no such thing. If this is your solution to anything you are a waste of time. And promoting mutiny in this nations Armed Forces is despicable. You are the enemy....
If our future president continues to get us involved in the middle east, in countries that both Russia and China have vowed to defend, with nuclear war if necessary, we had better hope that more and more military leaders will choose to pursue peace.
If you are not against world war, then you are the enemy.
In 1981 I found a submarine periscope while scanning the horizon with a pair of binoculars. I wasn't scanning the way I was told, I was looking much farther and going slower. Now that this cold war BS is over I can say with a 99% certainty that it was a USSR sub. At the time it wasn't my concern who it belonged to. Not my problem. I had doubts as to whether anyone else would be able to see it visually and I considered what would happen if I reported it and it went under. They would have given me a section 8 and dropped me off at the next port. I decided to report it. It took about 10-15 minutes before they could set a up a contraption on the bridge to see it so an officer could confirm my siting. The part I hated the most was when all the officers took a look through their contraption to see the periscope. I'm thinking, look you dummies they're looking at you too. It was crazy in a cold war kind of way. Arturo why don't you stop posting your military crap people around here don't want to hear it.
Sometimes, what people need to hear most is that which they don't want to hear. Its better to face harsh reality before it happens.
Nope. You are promoting a military take over of this nation. And you don't even live here. You are obviously a stooge ( useful idiot) of the ChiComs. Get fucked. You are the enemy of my nation.
What if the government orders the military to fire on the American people or put them in concentration camps? Would you want to see the military obeying those orders? Or do you think that it just can't happen here? Isn't that what happened in Nazi Germany?
The analogy holds true for continuing to pursue a "Blitzkrieg" through the middle east. Wouldn't our world have been better off if the German military had pursued peace instead?
If you were that concerned you'd be more worried about these contractors running around like they did in NOLA after Katrina. Stop throwing gas on a fire. The world is already pissed off.
The military is supposed to defend the constitution. That's not why people sign up but it's true. Both you guys are engaging in stupid talk. After getting out in 82' I'd suggest never trusting anyone in a uniform.
If that's the case, then wouldn't it be better to take the steps necessary to build trust between those in the military and the civilian population? Or do you just think it just can't be done and want to give up?
Come on arturo, get with OWS. It's a leaderless movement and it's different. Military conspiracies aren't their concern and they have other things to worry about.
OWS has come nowhere close to accomplishing its objectives of meaningful financial reform, such as passing Glass Steagall. I think that in part this is due to its leaderless nature.
Military conspiracies effect everybody if they lead to world war. What will you say if WWIII happens, that you have other more important things to worry about? That's not going to help much.
Aggressive wars are just one part of the financial oligarchies war on humanity. Its a part of their predatory outlook.
I'll admit I'm a little worried about Syria escalating. People might choose sides and people switch sides too. I believe the US is promoting destablization in countries that support the death penalty, just like the US does. Stupid, money-grubbing ignorant behavior. Until this is resolved we can't move forward.
Yes, I'm worried about it too.
When it comes to these jobs- military, cop, whatever, you're either one of them or you're not. Forget em and hope they don't bother you.
Perhaps its been like that in recent times. I don't think that it has to be that way however.
Hating on vets started with Vietnam. It's a boomer thing and we can handle it. I'm more concerned with issues like the DP, minimum wage, health care. I want OWS to make the death penalty a foreign policy issue and I am against it.
I think that if we don't get the economy going again, its going to be the death penalty for a lot of us.
Nah. We need some real talk after the election. Things will work out.
What do you see that I don't see?
Your grasp of history is pathetic. You are simply spewing propaganda likely ordered by your ChiCom masters. Please keep supporting OWS!
Nothing substantive here.
Rumor has it there's a lot of anti-US/Japan sentiment being pushed by the gov in China. Where would China be without Japanese ingenuity with electronics? I'm glad China adopted the so-called 'Protestant work ethic'. Enjoy it while it last cause it won't last too long.
Actually, the Chinese government tries to calm such sentiments, rather than exacerbate them. The Chinese word for America is "mei guo" meaning "the beautiful country". Most Chinese people like America, would like to send their kids there for college or move there if they were rich enough.
For over a thousand years, China has adopted the Confucian work ethnic. Its not too different from what some consider the Protestant work ethic.
The economy has already been declining in China, due to western economic decline. What do you do when your best customer commits economic suicide? In the long term globalism will be recognized as unworkable.
Didn't they know our economy might go down? I think the digital bubble is over. Clinton was very lucky to have it and it lasted maybe 15 years. How many digital toys do we need? It seems like China needs a big reality check just like everyone else. Too many people and lot's of automation.
They can see our economy going down, maybe it just doesn't make sense to them why we aren't doing what is necessary to get it going again.
China isn't just about digital toys. There's a lot of other hard work going on here as well. There's a lot being done to mechanize and improve agriculture for example.
There's also a heavy emphasis on education. From what I can see, most Chinese high school students go to school around 7:30 to 8, finish around 5, and usually study until 10 or 11 at night.
It could be a long time before we see innovation that excites the whole world again. The industrial revolution provided a lot and the invention of the transistor, miniturization and IC's was mind-blowing. Now there's nothing happening. Unskilled workers have to start getting paid better everywhere.
It wasn't just to keep busy, the work was needed, as much work is needed today. The way to finance it would be first, pass Glass Steagall, to eliminate all the phony money from the system, than create a national bank to finance economic development projects. We have an economic crisis because there is not economic development.
Yes, we need something like a New Deal to provide a lot of jobs doing needed work for unskilled workers. US infrastructure is all rated C and D by the army corp of engineers. We need an army of workers to put it back together again, on a world wide basis.
The point of the new deal was to keep people busy. There's always some construction plans to do that. I agree. That takes tax dollars.
Does it scare you? People thinking?
Like, for themselves?
Name one war since WWII that was not about making the 1% even richer.
And now a fucking foreigner will slam our military for not committing mutiny. I know that the regulars here love you. Further proof that OWS is anti military. Big surprise.
It does seem to scare you . If you aren't after the truth, why hang around here?
Unless you are trying to hide the truth from others.
You Red scum scare no one. Go away and mind your own business.
You'd like that.
Every human being on the face of the earth has a stake in the issues being discussed here. Join in, or don't. We don't force choices upon you.
Although, I'm currently living in China, I'm an American citizen. There are quite a few of us over here.
And I'm sure you support and approve of their political system. Good for you. Our military will never turn traitor to the citizens of the United States.
I hope the military doesn't turn traitor to US citizens, and I believe that the US should be allied with China as it was during the second world war.
I support the Chinese government in that it has brought 100 million people out of poverty in the last thirty years, according to the world bank. This, while the financial oligarchy in America plunges ever more of our citizens into poverty.
100 million out of a population of ......? Yes, I'm sure it is to our advantage to be "allied" with a murderous Marxist government. Keep talking traitor.
That murder was happening 30 years ago, its a different world today. And calling someone a traitor because he lives in a foreign country? You appear to be a bit of a drama queen.
You've ignored the NDAA and the Kill List?
Your knowledge of contemporary China is obviously, hopelessly backward. What decade do you think it is, the 1960s?
No one is promoting mutiny. All members of the Armed Forces should honor their oaths to the U.S. Constitution. That's not mutiny. It's apparent that you know nothing of the ideals behind the Revolutionary War, the Declaration of Independence, and the U.S. Constitution.
As usual you are wrong. I do understand those things. It's you on the left that understand none of it.
Go away Nazi. We, OWS, are taking back the flag. If you want to fight us you'll have to trample it under. Fuk off.
Our founding fathers would have despised you.
left is a relative direction and could be considered counter clockwise
Take a good look at that website "Veterans Today" and tell me that the chief honcho there is not completely out of his mind.
Or perhaps society as a whole is out of its mind, and people like him are sane. Looking at the state our world is in, I'd have to say it is society as a whole that is out of its mind.
Yes the society is stark raving nuts and it's hard to even know one's self if what one thinks and believes is connected to reality in any useful way. But read the guy's rants - something like "being there" or "Forest Gump." He has inside lines all over the place in intelligence circles from Shanghai to Madrid and of course he's always "leaking" what he gleans from thse sources who keep on feeding him. Here's a random sample:
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/09/17/ufo-war-chinese-and-us-navy-off-san-francisco/
UFO War: Chinese and US Navy off San Francisco
Joint Fleets Fend Off UFO Threat
—— by Gordon Duff, Senior Editor
This last week, reports of Chinese naval vessels off the US coast, Northern Californian in particular, have been reported but denied. Now an Asian intelligence agency reports that a combined fleet operation between the US and China has been going on, a full combat operation against what we are told is a “highly unfriendly extra-terrestrial threat.” The verifications of the fleet operations have been many, there have been no confirmations from the US side though the ships have been seen by every vessel that makes it offshore. The true nature of both the threat and the extent of the multinational military force used is beyond any imaginable classification level. Rumors: Extraterrestrial craft are operating from underwater bases. Advanced US sub-orbital weapons platforms represented as “tested” have actually been deployed from Vandenburg Air Force Base. These are armed with energy weapons. UFO tracking has been moved from conventional to nano-technology with microscopic sensors being used to detect behaviors such as dimensional rifts and distortions in time, things only discussed in TV shows like Fringe and X Files. (all Fox oddly enough) The actual classified memo on very short distribution mentions only the following: Opposition is extraterrestrial and extremely aggressive and unfriendly The threat represents a “clear and present danger” and is isolated to the Pacific Basin China is forced to carry US responsibility because our own naval capability is sitting in the Persian Gulf when America is under a very real threat. Attempts to seek confirmations or to directly verify these operations will lead to fatal consequences. Our confirmations limit us to this response which I have chosen to represent in a highly deniable form out of personal interest. Others in the US have better information and sources and have been silenced with warnings only. As to this being a total “hose job,” I don’t see any advantage in it. For several months earlier this year, there had been disclosures tied to the UFO issue. One real sighting had been made over South Korea. After that, the internet had been flooded, yes, Google’s “YouTube” with manufactured phony UFO videos, some of “beyond next generation” quality. All information given on how UFO video or photos are analyzed is totally false, childishly so, especially that from the UFO “networks.” They are professionally “self discrediting.” About 6 weeks ago, a “study group” was appointed out of NATO and another one in Asia to look at the pattern of UFO videos. A decision was made to aggressively investigate one or more groups. Being aggressively investigated on such an issue is not recommended. I would love to be more entertaining, invent things, speculate or, perhaps, include some fascinating videos. I either have to give this a 70% or reclassify a reliable official source as purposefully leaking something that makes no sense. My suggestion is that readers follow other stories for verifications or information that would help in some way, add it to the comment section and see if we can get a better grip on what may well be an extremely dangerous situation. ————– I have had one implied threat, which is almost laughable as I am a board member of a multinational defense firm larger than most armies. I have also had several contact of a very suspicious nature, had one verified Homeland Security computer attack which the software the DOD supplied me with caught, quite embarrassing also.....
Yes, its very strange, but this is the case, sometimes you have people who are very credible reporting UFOs.
Aw c'mon! arturo, is this credible to you?: " I have had one implied threat, which is almost laughable as I am a board member of a multinational defense firm larger than most armies. I have also had several contact of a very suspicious nature, had one verified Homeland Security computer attack which the software the DOD supplied me with caught, quite embarrassing also....."
"This last week, reports of Chinese naval vessels off the US coast, Northern Californian in particular, have been reported but denied. Now an Asian intelligence agency reports that a combined fleet operation between the US and China has been going on, a full combat operation against what we are told is a “highly unfriendly extra-terrestrial threat.” The verifications of the fleet operations have been many, there have been no confirmations from the US side though the ships have been seen by every vessel that makes it offshore. The true nature of both the threat and the extent of the multinational military force used is beyond any imaginable classification level. Rumors: Extraterrestrial craft are operating from underwater bases. "
I don't think there is anything too incredible about someone receiving threats, considering his position.
He claims there are some intelligence reports, with verifications of fleet operation, but no confirmations from ships. It seems that many UFO reports come from military personnel or from commercial pilots. Are they all crazy? I don't know.
Man has achieved space flight. In the vastness of the universe, I don't think it is impossible that life from other planets may have done so as well.
And there is a joint Chinese/US naval taskforce off San Francisco right now hunting the varmints.... okay arturo.
Admittedly it sounds strange.
yes, it does.
Do tell!
Lol. He is. He doesn't speak for vets in any way.