Forum Post: US Smart Enough Not To Eternally Subsidize A Wasteful Post Office
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 12, 2011, 10:36 p.m. EST by Censored
(138)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Thankfully, in our country, we have a limit on our tolerance of broken government. The latest example: the bloated and plodding Post Office. A Post Office that can barely acknowledge the existence of the damn internet, continues to run up huge losses and retirement promises as it delays even obvious decisions like ending Saturday delivery.
Finally, we're asking for change and accountability. Thank God we're in the United States where we draw the line on losers.
"In 2007, a Congressional mandate that the Postal Service prefund future retiree health benefits for the next 75 years and do so within a decade -- something no other public agency or private company has to do -- was implemented, and it’s cost the agency $21 billion since then. That alone accounts for 84 percent of the Postal Service’s red ink."
Crippled by a Mandate
The other thing to consider is that every piece of mail is scanned for explosives, chemical and biological materials. The cost of these security measures is not insignificant.
UPS and FedEx don't do that, and are not required to.
Previously debunked here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/us-is-so-pathetic-it-cant-afford-mail-service/
Well said. This is just an attempt to begin to unravel our government. Start with the Post Office. What is next the Dept. of Education, Energy, Environmental Protection? Be careful what you wish for.
hahaha - you again beautifulworld!? yea - the govt is way to bloated & inefficient & wasteful. you love the govt as your savior because you live in fear of the big bad world. well guess what? we all do! so get over it & make it on your own !!! always looking for someone to take care of you. "who would want to live in these shackles they call safety & security" - Emilia Earhart . Get a life already ! or do you consider yourself dead ?
Don't know. Do those other agencies do something as stupid at Saturday delivery in an era of email? When government ignores obvious change, that's a positive?
I wish for responsive and adaptable government so that our needs are met as they change. You wish for museums that used to do something we cared about.
Be careful what you wish for. If you think people want to tear down government now, wait until another 20 years goes by with a government that can't change and adapt. Then see how much love there is for it.
Not everyone has a computer and internet and gets email for everything. Some things that come in the mail are too important to rely on electronics like that. The USPS is legally obligated to deliver mail to all citizens. Private delivery companies are not.
That's still no argument for Saturday delivery and ignoring progress.
Saturday delivery is how I get my mail on Saturdays. What the fuck are you talking about?
God, is it really that hard? See, Saturday mail would become, get ready, Monday or Friday mail and the Post Office would lose less money. If you still don't get it, ask someone near you to read this and then they can try to explain it to you.
False. There are a lot of hermits living n the middle of noplace or on top of mountains that receive no mail service. They have to drive into town to get their mail. (Similarly there are a lot of people who don't have electricity unless they PAY tens of thousands of dollars to have the wires run to their remote homes.)
Maybe I misspoke. Or typed. What I meant was that they are obligated to deliver to all mail addresses. I understand that many people have a post office they drive to to pick up their mail but the USPS has to deliver that mail.
The Post Office pays for itself. What's your problem with that? If they are sending less mail these days, fine, but that is not why they're having financial problems. It is because of the unfair burden Congress has placed on the Post Office to fund its pensions for 75 years!
Yeah, how unfair. The Post Office should be able to go on in email denial for another 5 or 10 years yet. LOL. It's reform time. Sorry, I know government and unions hate to hear stuff like that.
Don't know what you are talking about. I get mail everyday. Real mail in paper form.
Yes, no shit. Now explain to me the crisis that would ensue if it didn't come on Saturday.
The crisis would be in lost jobs to postal workers all in the name of ridiculously funding their pensions for 75 years. There is plenty of mail to justify continuing Saturday service.
Let's add Sunday, we can create even more "jobs". LOL.
Postal volumes are off enormously because of email. Change doesn't come easily to government and unions and they'd love to delay change even longer. They'd love to avoid the current cash costs of future retirement benefits betting they can just punt that on the taxpayer later. It's nice to see that all their liberal friends agree.
There is already Sunday delivery. Has been for a long time. Some mail is important enough to be delivered on Sunday.
Email hasn't changed the post office as much as you think. Most of their money comes from first class junk mail. Catalogs and such. Flats. They also deliver a large amount of parcels and seeing as how they pay their employees a decent wage and bring those parcels along with other important mail like bills and such instead of making a special trip for the new vibrating dildo or case of boner pills someone might have ordered I prefer that USPS is used over private companies that don't let their employees unionize.
actually a great idea - from you that is amazing - put people to work in an era of high unemployment and slack demand - thus causing corporations to lay off workers and push unemployment up etc - what a good idea - have the gov't put more people to work just like fdr did to soften the blow for the working class. hire people directly instead of the dumb ass way obama did it - by give money to corps s\o they could skim the top before hiring anyone. you and your shit free market thinking - it has been proven that it is a sham you are the one too dumb to know it - "there are none so blind as those who will not see"
There has been no free market in America for decades! We have a taxpayer subsidized corporate welfare state.This is why this whole situation in our country is sick! A 1 trillion dollar budget out of which 662 billion dollars is allocated for defense spending! The country is reeling in an economic depression and half of Americans are living in poverty. Our infrastructure is crumbling. 662 billion to the military industrial complex and 338 billion for the rest of America. This is insane! More millions of Americans slip sliding into poverty. Free market my ass!
right on man! here is the budget from the war resistors league - Total Outlays (Federal Funds): $2,650 billion MILITARY: 54% and $1,449 billion NON-MILITARY: 46% and $1,210 billion - and here is a snippet from chomsky on the military budget - Like all advanced societies, the U.S. has relied on state intervention in the economy from its origins, though for ideological reasons, the fact is commonly denied. During the post-World War II period, such "industrial policy" was masked by the Pentagon system, including the Department of Energy (which produces nuclear weapons) and NASA, converted by the Kennedy administration to a significant component of the state-directed public subsidy to advanced industry. By the late 1940s, it was taken for granted in government-corporate circles that the state would have to intervene massively to maintain the private economy. In 1948, with postwar pent-up consumer demand exhausted and the economy sinking back into recession, Truman's "cold-war spending" was regarded by the business press as a "magic formula for almost endless good times" (Steel), a way to "maintain a generally upward tone" (Business Week). The Magazine of Wall Street saw military spending as a way to "inject new strength into the entire economy," and a few years later, found it "obvious that foreign economies as well as our own are now mainly dependent on the scope of continued arms spending in this country," referring to the international military Keynesianism that finally succeeded in reconstructing state capitalist industrial societies abroad and laying the basis for the huge expansion of Transnational Corporations (TNCs), at that time mainly U.S.-based. The Pentagon system was considered ideal for these purposes. It imposes on the public a large burden of the costs (research and development, R&D) and provides a guaranteed market for excess production, a useful cushion for management decisions. Furthermore, this form of industrial policy does not have the undesirable side-effects of social spending directed to human needs. Apart from unwelcome redistributive effects, the latter policies tend to interfere with managerial prerogatives; useful production may undercut private gain, while state-subsidized waste production (arms, Man-on-the-Moon extravaganzas, etc.) is a gift to the owner and manager, who will, furthermore, be granted control of any marketable spin-offs. Furthermore, social spending may well arouse public interest and participation, thus enhancing the threat of democracy; the public cares about hospitals, roads, neighborhoods, and so on, but has no opinion about the choice of missiles and high-tech fighter planes. The defects of social spending do not taint the military Keynesian alternative, which had the added advantage that it was well-adapted to the needs of advanced industry: computers and electronics generally, aviation, and a wide range of related technologies and enterprises. The Pentagon system of course served other purposes. As global enforcer, the U.S. needs intervention forces and an intimidating posture to facilitate their use. But its economic role has always been central, a fact well-known to military planners. Army Plans Chief General James Gavin, in charge of Army R&D under Eisenhower, noted that "What appears to be intense interservice rivalry in most cases...is fundamentally industrial rivalry." It was also recognized from the outset that these goals require "sacrifice and discipline" on the part of the general public (NSC 68). It was therefore necessary, Dean Acheson urged "to bludgeon the mass mind" of Congress and recalcitrant officials with the Communist threat in a manner "clearer than truth," and to "scare hell out of the American people," as Senator Vandenberg interpreted the message. To carry out these tasks has been a prime responsibility of intellectuals throughout these years.
This is why I perceive the structure of corporations and their shareholders as well as the stock/bond/commodities markets to be empty shell structures for the extraction of wealth.
And your point is?
And then in 2025 we can all wonder why we have so many govt workers getting paid so much for so little. The reason will be the recession of 2008-09
and how much do they pay you to do this work quisling - are the koch bros generous? remember how we got of of the depression - look it up - i'll wait
Increasing the ranks of government employees that accomplish nothing is no way to build a country. We shouldn't have to live with the legacy of how government "saved us" in perpetuity.
Remember how Fannie Mae and FHA got started? Look it up.
yuo have a free market ideology that i don't share - you can do your private enterprise thing all you want - i have seen it in action - for many years and through many failures - and they always run to the gov't (read that taxpayer) to save them. privatized profit - socialized losses - it was there for all to see - over and over again through my life time and before - only those who refuse to see it can't. are you one of those?
No other government agency or private company funds pensions for 75 years. In fact, most of us will be screwed when we go to collect on our defined benefit plans because few are funded at all.
The Post Office was entering a period of decline made extremely obvious with the invention of email. You know what they'd do. You know they'd delay even doing the obvious stuff to adjust. You used the word "screwed", yet would add the Post Office to the list. Your Saturday mail must be a lot more important than mine. Mine could wait until Monday.
I'm not saying I need mail on Saturday, but this is a direct attempt to dismantle the Post Office. They knew by requiring the pension to be funded for 75 years that it would be the beginning of the end. Just a matter of time. Are Congress' pensions funded for even 75 days?
Yeah true but that's another 1 billion in the pockets of taxpayers, who can spend it on important things like feeding their family, paying the rent, covering college tuition costs, and so on. For every downside there's always an upsdie. In this case the upside is taxpayers get to keep more of the money they sweated/labored to earn.
Republicans have never saved this country money. The Republican version of small government is their dog whisle for a privately for profit run government. The tax payer would never see the savings. Just look at how our prison population exploded when for profit prison became legal in many States.
Taxpayers don't pay for the Post Office. And, losing postal jobs would cause those people to not be able to pay the rent, feed their families, etc.
huge concentrations of wealth are inherently bad, agreed?
are huge concentrations of highly paid employees?
who are the largest employers in the United States?
where do they get their money to pay their employees?
do any of them receive ANY federal funding, taxpayer subsidiaries, breaks or incentives?
do any of them outsource?
Shame on you. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/05/business/in-internet-age-postal-service-struggles-to-stay-solvent-and-relevant.html?pagewanted=all
No. Shame on you. Here's a quote from the article you link to:
"They add that a major factor for the post office’s $20 billion in losses over the past four years is a 2006 law requiring the postal service to pay an average of $5.5 billion annually for 10 years to finance retiree health costs for the next 75 years."
Also: http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/184323-postal-workers-deliver-message-to-supercommittee-on-retirement-benefits
You cherry-picked the information. From the same article: Mail volume has plummeted with the rise of e-mail, electronic bill-paying and a Web that makes everything from fashion catalogs to news instantly available. The system will handle an estimated 167 billion pieces of mail this fiscal year, down 22 percent from five years ago.
Even if they correct the accounting or the benefit problem, they still have 22% less pieces. Of the remaining pieces, how much is junk mail? In my own case, as I recall five years ago when I ceased using it, junk mail was almost all of it. Moreover, the speed of the pony express cannot compete with the digital express and with Fedex et al, we do not have to contend with the surly, bitter attitudes of tenured employees.
Now, what is your defense? Vested interest (you or relatives work for PO), sentimentality, or Ludditeness, or what?
Shame back on you.
You cherry pick your info with the chip on your shoulder! I find the postal service superior to Fed Ex.
You would be the only one who believes that. Oh, how do I know, look at the market.
What is one man's junk mail is another's gold. Junk mail is paid for so I don't see your point. I have no problem with the Post Office downsizing to fit the new lower volume. I have a big problem with our Republican Congress pointedly putting the Post Office in a fiscal position that will cause it's demise because they want the government to shrink down to nothing.
When Republicans say small government what they mean is a privately run for profit run government. With the corporate run prison system our prison population has exploded because prisons are profitable on taxpayer dollars. The Republicans will not give up on privatizing Medicare, Social Security and the US Postal Service. It is part of their 1% run agenda.
Exactly. Great post.
This is America's problem with junk mail:
From Wikipedia:
In the US, the EPA estimates that 44% of junk mail is discarded without being opened or read, equaling four million tons of waste paper per year, with 32% recovered for recycling. Further, the Ohio Office of Compliance Assistance and Pollution Prevention (OCAPP) estimates that 250,000 homes could be heated for a single day's junk mail. The CO2 emissions from 41 pounds of advertising mail received annually by the average US consumer is about 47.6 kilograms (105 pounds) according to one study. The loss of natural habitat potential from the 41 pounds of advertising mail is estimated to be 36.6 square meters (396 square feet).
From 10K, Sept. 30, 2011 http://about.usps.com/who-we-are/financials/10k-reports/fy2011.pdf
If junk mail is paid for, why did the Post Office lose $5,067,000,000 for the 12 months ended Sept. 30, 2011 and why do they have a net deficit (upside-down) of $20 billion as of Sept. 30, 2011. Answer: because neither junk mail nor any other kind of mail can cover their very liberal wages and benefits. This is not socialism, this is fraud. Who will cover the short-fall of $20 billion?
What does your argument in the first paragraph have to do with whether or not junk mail is paid for?
The Post Office is not paid for by the government. It is paid for by what they charge to send mail. It's pretty simple. Why are you so upset about its deficit? It is not a government deficit. And, their shortfall is in large part due to the ridiculous requirement to fund pensions for 75 years.
If the Post Office is so independent and so stable then why did Ernest & Young include the following in their opinion for their audit of the Postal Service for the year ending Sept. 30, 2011:
As discussed more fully in Note 2 to the financial statements, the United States Postal Service, an independent establishment of the executive branch of the Government of the United States, is dependent upon future actions of the Government to continue its operations in the ordinary course as a result of increasing operating losses and near term statutory funding requirements for employee benefit obligations. Losses in recent periods have increased primarily due to sustained declines in mail volume, and statutory and regulatory restrictions have constrained the ability of the Postal Service to implement strategies to improve efficiency, reduce costs and increase revenues. On September 30, 2011, legislation was enacted that changed the due date of a $5.5 billion payment required by Public Law 109-435, the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act, to not later than November 18, 2011. The Postal Service does not expect to have sufficient cash to meet this obligation and a related additional obligation due by September 30, 2012 for $5.6 billion. Accordingly, management expects, but no assurances can be given, that additional legislation will be enacted in fiscal year 2012 to address the short-term funding requirements of the United States Postal Service.
Rare indeed is it that auditors disclose such in their opinions and, yet, even when they do, the public does not understand the implications. You ask, why are you so upset about the deficits? That is a keeper for my website. Your query reminds me of Dick Cheney, who said, deficits don't matter. Deficits mean that liabilities exceed assests. Well, how do you pay liabilities if you do not have the assets to pay them? Again, I ask, who will cover the deficit, who will pay the $5.6 billion due in Sept. 30, 2012. Do they go to their non-existent shareholders? No, they go to Congress. Read the disclosure above. E&Y addresses it. How do I know all this stuff? As a CPA/Auditor/Financial Analyst for 40 years, I have performed more than 500 audits.
Lastly, you ask, what does your argument in the first paragraph have to do with whether or not junk mail is paid for? The Post Office lost $5 billion for the year ended Sept. 2011, which means revenue (junk mail et al) did not cover the costs. Stated differently, the junk mail payors did not pay enough. Consequently, the USPS does not have the means to pay their debt. Even worst is the fact that 44% of junk mail did not even serve a purpose because it went to a landfill without anyone seeing it. And what about the remaining 56%? Surely, some or is it most was tossed in the resident's waste basket.
I'm sorry. I disagree with you. Public Law 109-435 is all about funding pensions:
H.R. 6407 (enacted as Public Law 109-435) changes the laws that govern the operation of the United States Postal Service (USPS), particularly those regarding the cost of pensions and health care benefits of retired workers and the requirement to hold certain funds in escrow.
This is the main reason the Post Office is having trouble, not the only reason, but the main reason. And, there is a targeted attempt to take the post office down. I don't know why. Libertarians who want to shrink government. Investors that hold stock in private mail service. I don't know. I don't know what else all of this anger could be about.
I surrender.
Thanks for the good discussion. There is a lot to talk about so don't surrender.
ohhhhh...too bad..... if the postal workers can't do anything about UPS and FedEx et al, bribing those, with vulgar amounts of money, who pass legislation and tax code...... then they can eat shit like everyone else and have to tighten their belts.
It may be "well said" but it's wrong. The USPS has been in debt since the late 90s. Why? Just like music and book companies, they are waging a losing war against the internet.
Music sales of CDs have plummeted because now people are downloading MP3s/AACs. Books and magazine sales have also plummeted to ~30% what they used to be, because people can get stories/news on the internet. The fact physical mail sales have also gone down is NO surprise to anyone who has used email and online billing.
Don't blame some obscure bill from 2007. Blame the birth of the world wide web in 1993 (when Netscape's Mosaic browser was first released to PCs, Macs, and Amigas). Ever since then physical sales of products have dropped as people turn to their free or almost-free equivalents.
It is the requirement by Congress that the Postal Service fund it's pensions for 75 years that has caused this problem. The Postal Service is self-funded in terms of the fact that customers pay to have them deliver their mail. The requirement to fund pensions for 75 years is deadly because they simply cannot raise the prices on delivery to cover that cost.
you can say what you like but if you back it up with evidence it might help your cause - since i do not have your belief in the free market cause (and it is a belief not a thought - thought requires evidence and all the facts these days are on the side of the anti free market people) - before i present my case i just wanted to point out that your beloved internet is a government creation - handed over to private enterprise once it was profitable. 100% funded by taxpayers - just like computers and aviation etc - ok counter this with some facts please - ...But postal workers say the much-touted crisis facing the U.S. Postal Service isn’t what it seems. Rather, they point to a 2006 law that forced the USPS to find enough money to fund 75 years of retiree health benefits over just a 10-year span. The American Postal Workers Union says the law’s requirements account for 100 percent of the Service’s $20 billion in losses over the previous four years, without which the service would have turned a profit..
Many people don't know this and it's unfortunate.
People PRETEND they know how everything works with doing as little research as possible. OP is an idiot and should do more research before he spews nonsense.
years ago i forget which one, I saw a news bite "the USPS has billions in surplus funds" what happened to it? Tell the media to say it and its so.
And thank God Congress did that. Otherwise, the slugs at the Post Office would dick around another 5 years before beginning reforms and stick the taxpayers with an even bill in the future.
The problem is that you are WRONG. Ever thought about a little research?
Sure have. Have you ever heard of email? If not, you have a lot in common with Post Office management and its union.
The problem is the Post Office is government, government with a union. Change is a real problem for institutions like this. The Post Office is making giant losses. They'd love to ignore why that is. Skipping funding for retiree benefits would make that easier. Congress, very wisely, saw this one coming. Therefore, the Post Office is BEGINNING to deal with its problems now rather than 5 years from now when it's worse.
Smarten up.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/02/almost-a-third-of-americans-still-dont-use-the-net.ars
I expect the numbers from the above will drop significantly in the next few years until we reach better economic times.
On top of this 40% of small businesses use USPS to ship.
These are common complaints associated with Fed Ex http://www.consumeraffairs.com/delivery/fedex_no_deliver.html
Then there is this issue:
Millions of Americans are classified as independent contractors but essentially work as employees. Under the law, true independent contractors are supposed to enjoy entrepreneurial control over the methods they use to do their work. But these misclassified workers suffer the worst of both worlds: they are without meaningful control over their work and they are without the legal protections and benefits of employees. Nonetheless, employers persist in their misclassification, attempting to convince courts and other agencies that their workers are independent contractors in order to avoid their legal obligations to their workers. http://www.americanrightsatwork.org/publications/general/fed-up-with-fedex.html
You aren't interested in facts. Simply privatization. Wise up!!!!
Great post, GirlFriday. This is a huge problem. Worker rights have dwindled to almost nothing in the past few decades.
No, just progress. Defending the Post Office as a pre-email operating museum is just another liberal folly.
'Cept it isn't progress. K? This is the part that you are in denial. Progress would mean that we would be moving to a better more efficient system. 'Cept we wouldn't be.
You aren't interested in progress at all. You are interested in forcing people to deal with companies that are not up to par and treat their workers like crap.
You don't have your facts. The US Postal Service is in financial difficulty because it's funds have been pilfered by other departments of government for years. Stop blackballing the US Postal Service. They have been doing a remarkable job for the prices they charge to render their services. Sounds like you are another public sector union basher!
It's called email and the Post Office should learn about it one day, the union too.
Attacking the U.S. Postal Service is attacking an institution that enables American democracy.
The Postal Service is the one institution that can distribute hard copy legal and financial information from local state and the federal government to every home in the nation in a timely manner servicing an INFORMED ELECTORATE.
The Postal Service is the one institution that cheaply verifies the validity of voter registrations reducing the chances of voter fraud.
Without the Postal Service taxes would be harder for millions of Americans.
Legal documentation, without dated post marks, would be much more problematic.
Without the Postal Service receiving new credit cards would be much more expensive.
The Postal Service today delivers more items than it did in 1972 with 170,000 fewer people doing the work.
But NONE OF THAT says we need Saturday delivery or even 5 day delivery.
Wow, productivity has gone up since 1972. Well, I sure as hell WOULD HOPE SO. Wages and bennys have gone up and productivity for EVERYTHING else went up too.
Informed electorate? Via mail???? You have the vision of progress shared by Post Office management. But the rest of us have heard of the internet. You're using it right now.
You are too stupid and ignorant, or contemptuous, of democracy to be ranting.
Yeah, no mail on Saturday means no Democracy. LOL. Smarten up. Almost NO ONE gets political news via mail. Oh, I get it, you thinks it's STILL 1972.
Such a sorry misinformed thread.
Another FLAKESnews fan?
A dittohead perhaps?
Are you a government worker perhaps? LOL.
Nope. ROFL
Are you a conspiracy theorist, as this thread is based on lies?
Stop subsidizing an anachronism and junk mail. Do the research. Mail pieces are down. Where is the mystery? If you need the Post Office, pay for it yourself. Stop asking others to subsidize your knuckle dragging dependency on a pony express model. The same old argument that manifest here also manifest with our congressmen and women: vote the bums out but not my bum. The post office is a bum which has been losing $5 billion a year for years. Moreover, the Post Office should be penalized for not adapting like Fedex, the internet et al. Next up, the Dept of Education. Again, if you need the Post Office, pay for it yourself.
It goes to a bigger problem in the country. Almost half of us pay NOTHING in federal income taxes. That means almost half of us simply don't look at the cost side of cost/benefit. If "more" has any benefit at all, it's demanded.
To fix our democracy, more of the people that expect to participate should have to give a shit about what things cost.
The funny thing is you need proof of address to get an ID or change your address these days. If we dont have a post office to deliver mail and everything is done on line how do we prove our address?
We can have a Post Office. We just need one that isn't made of concrete that resists even the most compelling and obvious reasons to change.
Those blockheads and the union still can't even figure out that Saturday delivery is a loser.
"How do we prove our address?" eMail address, property tax records, Google maps, SS admin, IRS, etc.
As I recall the US Postal System sought the ability to charge fees for internet use as it regarded email. Obviously, that was shot down.
I think Neucleus' post regarding retiree health benefits speaks to the root cause of the issue.
Rich benefits are a big part of the cost problem, no doubt.
It says something very negative about government and unions that they still can't even manage to stop Saturday delivery. They're dysfunctional.
Ok, so we have legacy costs in the form of healthcare insurance that is a source of the USPS problem and it's the fault of the postal workers union? That benefit costs so it's going to cause the USPS to go out of business, correct? I think the issue is the cost of healthcare insurance itself. Who is the postal workers' healthcare insurer?
No, the problem is that the Post Office is unresponsive to changes in the world. The union makes it worse by resisting even token reforms.
The Post Office isn't going out of business. Gaud, smarten up. But they do need to restructure meaningfully and undoubtedly need to at long last stop Saturday delivery (what do suppose the union thinks of that? LOL). They may need to cut deliveries more in remote places. Getting mail twice a week wouldn't kill anyone.
when I see people standing in line at the post office,
they are all holding packages
That's not a surprise because the Post Office ships packages and stuff. You know that, right?
But none of that obligates them to 7 day delivery, the rates they charge, the union, and failing to contemplate email.
Shipping packages is cheaper through USPS than UPS, fed-ex, etc.
No the in the U.S subsidies are for the wealthiest of the wealthy - not for the people.
Under Article One, Section 8 of the United States Constitution the Congress has a duty to establish post offices.
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;...
To establish post offices and post roads;"
Obviously, Reich-wingers are only familiar with one or two of clauses in the Bill of Rights that suit their dictatorial and insurrectionist purposes.
Sure, but it leaves a few things out. It doesn't mandate 7 days a week delivery, low postage rates, uniform postage rates, a union, an idiotic management, and an inability to adapt to change. Email changed to game for everything, well, except for the Post Office and its union.
"7 days a week delivery, low postage rates, uniform postage rates"...???
I don't share your anti union/anti middle-class, anti management and irrational attitudes about change in the Postal Service.
Frankly, your entire rant is just that. A rant with no sense or reason. A lot of petty, often out of date excuses to hate anything that has unions or the U.S. government providing to people other than you.
There is no other business in America with the capacity to deliver hard copy to every address in the nation every day for less than one dollar per item.
This is vital to our democracy and informed electorate in that it enables every level of government to quickly send missives to every citizen within a constituency quickly.
It is required for conveniently and cheaply validating voter registration and auto license address validity. Anything else would cost more and/or be less valid.
In a national security event such as an EMP attack where a large population is deprived of its electricity the Postal Service has the capacity and would still be able to deliver.
Its need for a healthy young delivery workforce provides American veterans a good paying job opportunity while they are getting an education. this helps the transition from limited military expertise to the higher educated civilian workforce. Often providing stability that helps to keep families together that have been stressed by years of military service. I am happy and proud to be able to subsidize giving these Americans union protection and opportunity to get their lives together after they have risk their lives for my family and nation.
You are a real butt-head!
It isn't a rant. It isn't being "pro middle class" simply to preserve the Post Office as some museum of a pre-email world.
We don't purposely suppress the productivity of jobs people do as a route to becoming better off. Gee, let's do away with the trucks, start twice a day delivery and even Sundays, hire five million more people and have them carry everything by hand. Think of all the great middle class jobs we can make.
Penny wise pound stupid. You have addressed none of the vital democratic governance or constitutional issues. Just a lot of wordy ignorant ranting. A crappy load of right-wing anti government and anti social anarchy.
I am not anti government nor am I anti social so there is nothing for you and I to discuss.
Huh? Really, Saturday delivery holds the country together? You believe something that stupid?
Excellent post!
A lot of people don't realize also that there are rural areas the other "options" to mail don't cover like the post office does. Including medicine shipments (Which clearly can't be e-mailed). I use the post office regularly, and I hate the thought of it changing to a 5-day system and not delivering to some areas.
(Even though the butt-head bit is well deserved, remember not to stoop to these guys levels no matter how tempting it is. I'm far from innocent when it comes to giving into frustration over them, but it's a waste of energy in the end.)
The US postal Service has always been adapting to the needs of the country, growing and improving throughout our history. This has been and will continue to be an ongoing process. You can find need for improvement anywhere you look: private or public sector. This is the nature of any fluid structure. You are out to villify and degrade the good work and reliable services that our Postal Service provides. You have an agenda and it is not about improving anything. The Postal Service has had internet service for several decades. You are out to vilify and denegrade and this is apparent from your giant boulder of anger and rage embedded in your language and construction.
Iam smart enough. Is there any problem over there?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaRtqrlGy8&list=FLZkUFtaq10j1B_WSceYCjdg&index=12&feature=plpp_video
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
http://www.zcommunications.org/postal-workers-the-last-union-by-allison-kilkenny
Enough said.
This is America's problem with junk mail:
From Wikipedia:
In the US, the EPA estimates that 44% of junk mail is discarded without being opened or read, equaling four million tons of waste paper per year, with 32% recovered for recycling. Further, the Ohio Office of Compliance Assistance and Pollution Prevention (OCAPP) estimates that 250,000 homes could be heated for a single day's junk mail. The CO2 emissions from 41 pounds of advertising mail received annually by the average US consumer is about 47.6 kilograms (105 pounds) according to one study. The loss of natural habitat potential from the 41 pounds of advertising mail is estimated to be 36.6 square meters (396 square feet).
From 10K, Sept. 30, 2011 http://about.usps.com/who-we-are/financials/10k-reports/fy2011.pdf
If junk mail is paid for, why did the Post Office lose $5,067,000,000 for the 12 months ended Sept. 30, 2011 and why do they have a net deficit (upside-down) of $20 billion as of Sept. 30, 2011. Answer: because neither junk mail nor any other kind of mail can cover their very liberal wages and benefits. This is not socialism, this is fraud. Who will cover the short-fall of $20 billion?
or maybe the citizens determine that certain crucial elements of our society's infrastructure should fall closer to democratic control and be subsidized and regulated by all of us. i think the post office does a pretty darn good job of keeping all of us citizens connected.
Darn good job. Ever consider the losses they're piling up? Does it matter?
The Post Office's relevance to "keeping all of us citizens connected" is steadily eroding with improvements in telecommunications. I'm just asking that they notice.
the losses exist because they are not charging enough (stamps) for their service. the balance is covered by the taxpayer (subsidy). the financial accounting loss itself does not speak of the service provided to us by the USPS.
I have no problem with them charging more. That will just hasten change and people seeking alternatives. Yeah, "financial accounting loss", whatever that means, does to speak to the service provided. It's a strong hint that the service isn't worth what it costs to produce.
The "financial accounting loss" itself does not speak of the service provided to us by the USPS. You have to add the taxpayer subsidy back to the USPS revenues (stamp sales). I'd bet highly that when that is done the "financial accounting loss" disappears and possibly turns into a gain making the service worth at least what or more than it costs to produce.
The Post Office is losing relevance, quickly. It's doubtful that its value would hold steady as its relevance falls, wouldn't you think?
You must not have a mail box, nor bills to pay.
You must not have heard about email and online bill paying. Post Office volumes are falling steadily. You should ask yourself why.
OIC You don't have a mail box.
I get something every day.
I like to write checks. I like to send them.
I never see the UPS guy walking door to to door.
Do you have proof of the falling volume?
Proof? It's been wildly reported. You have the internet, geez, look it up.
I didn't make the statement.
Lazy.
Busy.
Unlikely.
I don't agree that the USPS is losing relevance. I do think, however, that there are a lot of private companies and interests that would like you to believe that so you will hopefully vote to let them step into what they see as a profitable market.
The question is should citizens hand out another crucial component of our society's infrastructure to the private sector. I'm not sure it's such a good idea to relegate responsibility, for such a crucial component of our society's infrastructure, away from public governance and into the hands of those who are solely concerned about profit.
Yes, they would. First Class mail competition should no longer be illegal.
If it's crucial, all the better to hand it over to more competent and responsive management and to allow more competition.
like the bankers
Private allocation of capital is a better idea than political allocation of capital. Not true? Look at Fannie, Freddie and FHA, the biggest source of taxpayer losses in the crisis.
You really wanna pitch the Post Office as a model of decision quality?
You don't know what you're talking about. Fannie, Freddie and FHA were private sector managed companies with quasi-government financial guarantees. The same problem we have with Banks.
Objectively speaking, you would have to compare the number of private sector business failures with the number of government managed business failures to even begin to opine on the efficacy of government managed projects.
Like I wrote before, the USPS has done a damn fine job of keeping us citizens connected. Sure they've pissed me off before, but so has Fedex and UPS.
What conservative talk show host is now trashing the USPS?
Yeah, gerat. Fannie, Freddie and FHA weren't government. Keep talking. Politicized lending created problems. You should know too that these government lovelies were 100x leveraged when they blew (Fannie and Freddie) and FHA is 400x leveraged right now.
The "damn fine job" is becoming less relevant and is turning into a "damn fine museum". They can't even acknowledge the existence of email and the silliness of Saturday delivery.
You should realize that what you wrote just confirmed what I stated about Fannie, Freddie and FHA.
The politicized lending you write about is the quasi-government financial guarantees that I write about. Fannie and Freddie were private sector managed companies. In fact, Fannie and Freddie were publicly traded companies that paid massive bonuses to their executives. No such bonuses would ever be allowed to be paid to a civil servant in a government-run entity, not even the President. FHA was government run (for the most part). Guess which entity had the least in losses? Guess which entity paid no executive more than the pres?
Really, where do you get your information from?
Your conclusion, "The "damn fine job" is becoming less relevant and is turning into a "damn fine museum". They can't even acknowledge the existence of email and the silliness of Saturday delivery." is turning out to really just be your uninformed opinion, which you have every right to have and look silly with.
I know perfectly well what Fannie and Freddie are and were. FHA, of course, is purely government.
Maybe if the Post Office paid better, they'd make better decisions.
No, email and declining volumes is not my opinion. That we should actually give a shit and expect the Post Office to adapt and change, that's an opinion. Yours is different, I get that.
Nowhere did I write that the Post Office should not have to adapt and change.
I think you'd have to be an arrogant and moronic fool to give up the option of having a publicly governed entity that has done an amazing job keeping us citizens connected for so many years.
I have already given you the facts that one-third of the population does not have a computer. 40% of small businesses use USPS. You are LYING.
Psst, here's a secret: They still don't need Saturday delivery. The point stands, cupcake, the Post Office is rapidly losing its relevance.
I know, I'm just another "hater". LOL.
You are lying. It is quite relevant. You are merely in it for the privatization.
Facts be damned.
You see, Sugarpop, I also pay taxes. ;)
Email and change be damned.
Saturday delivery is simply not needed. The losses and volume declines are bringing that era to a close.
No doubt, I'd be impressed with the amount. LOL.
We already know the game.
For the last six years, I have survived with no post office box or post office affiliation whatsoever--how? The only thing that one could claim that I miss from those pony express days is the junk mail and, as Peter says in Office Space, I wouldn't say I was exactly missing it.
The same injustice at work with property taxes is at work with the PO. The childless pay for the procreators and the progressives pay for the Luddites. But I say, you breed them, you deal with them; you knuckle drag, you pay for it.
America, America, nature sheds it Darwinism on thee. And crown thy good with progress From sea to polluted sea!
you fucking stupid clowns
grr
smart. toss more Americans out of work you stupid fuck
FIVE BILLION DOLLARS Congress siphons from the Post Office every year. DUH
fukcin scumbags
Because Congress saw what was coming. The Post Office would've piled up giant unfunded promises and then dumped them later on the taxpayer.
The bloated and plodding Post Office, even at this late date, even when it's this OBVIOUS, still can't manage to stop Saturday delivery. It's a disgrace.
Nothing but more hot air from. Compulsive liars like you are the disgrace.
So are parasite unions and managements of public services that fail to deal with even the most apparent aspects of change, like email.
You can't send a package by email nor can you send a certified letter by email. Most documents are not considered legal in email form. I prefer the protection of privacy to the content of my personal letters to friends, family and business associate. Email offers none of these capabilities. There are no parasite Unions. Unions have given us the 40 hr work week, overtime, paid vacations and sick leave, safe working environment, health care, pensions and labor laws that protected the employee from employer harassment and exploitation. You have a hate driven agenda.
I understand that sending mail has a purpose. But that still says NOTHING about postal rates, delivery schedules, inflexibility and unions.
You should think about what unions do NOW.
I'm just another "hater" that thinks Saturday delivery should stop in light of this little thing called email and declining volumes. LOL.
I don't think about what Unions do now. I observe. I base my conclusions on the observation of facts not an ideology.
Well, unions now mostly just advocate for a bigger government and tax increases. That's because most unions are in government and they couldn't care less what government does as long as it gets bigger and they get paid more. They fight even the smallest attempts at reform, just like in the Post Office. Gotta love unions.
What plodding?
My mail comes on time every day.
Stop your lies. Your hateful and spiteful agenda is self evident. If you can't hold a conversation with facts then shut up.
That's exactly what the union wants. They even ran TV ads trying to get people to pressure Congress into letting them run-up unfunded retiree obligations. They'll do anything to delay reform. You bought it, apparently. It's one of the few things Congress has gotten right in a long time.
Your hate is disabling your ability to work with facts and truth.
So typical of liberals... "hater!" All emotion, zero thought. Yep, just a hater that thinks Saturday delivery should stop to acknowledge the obvious of email and declining volumes.
yeah-ya.
five billion dollars
I want every penny accounted for before a single layoff begins!!
THIEVES!!
Ever heard of email? The Post Office hasn't either.
that's a great excuse. so - because we have email, lets toss twenty or one hundred thousand people out of work, even though they are:
providing a service to the community
one that is currently in use
and even makes money
you're a fucking idiot
has anyone calculated the extra cost to the consumer
that will result from closed post offices?
now they will have to drive farther to use their po box for example
I'll bet the oil industry made the calculations, and have shown an increase in demand, which in turn will boost the costs of fuel and increase emissions
you fucking nimrod
Yeah, just an idiot that thinks email and crashing volumes should at last be a reason to reconsider Saturday delivery. LOL.
has it been established that a decline in volume justifies ending saturday delivery?
I haven't heard that
Nor have I heard that there is reason to close so many post offices
what I have heard is that the drain on the PO budget mandated by Congress, to a tune of $5,000,000,000, makes any other course impossible.
Nice time to shrink the workforce asshole
No dumb ass, but the giant LOSSES DO. Post Office volumes are down tremendously because of EMAIL. Perhaps you've heard of it. Apparently, not many people at the Post Office at the union have.
Congress simply saved us from the Post Office and the union would've served up. They'd have stuck the taxpayer will a huge bill for retirement give aways if left to their own devices.
Maintaining the Post Office as some museum piece of pre-email America is no way to run the country, asshole.
you look like one more scumbag intent on tanking jobs numbers in the hope it will help repelican skank at the polls . . .
SaveThePostOfice.Com
Second item under Ten Steps to Saving the Postal Service
It just buys more time for them to bury their heads. Email, honest to God, isn't going away. Really, it won't.
Jobs need to have meaning. With stupidity like yours, we'd put 5 people in a damn truck and think we got somewhere. Let's give them all bicycles. Think of all the jobs we'd create!
like I said - just another scum bag intent on tanking jobs numbers in hope of helping repelican scum at election
forget what the cost of downsizing will be on the economy as a whole
forget how email provides for more data harvesting - more eyes focused on our private lives by both public and private sectors
fuck you
Heh, make more jobs then dumb ass. Put 10 people on the trucks. We're really hurting ourselves by not lighting up Sunday delivery too, you know, obviously. Here's another great idea. It's winter time. Screw the snow plows, let's do it by hand. We could employ millions! Wow, think of the jobs we'll create. Are you really this dumb?
i can't begin to express how i hate evil little fucks like you
fucking scumbags
you represent everything that is wrong with this country
you should be really really grateful I don't set the agenda because you would be on it
Don't care. Being as dumb as you are can get frustrating at times, no doubt.
Yes, I'm grateful you don't set the agenda. We'd still have 95% of country farming because progress costs jobs.
i can't wait till next summer
it's gonna be hot
I know what you are saying is true. I know a person in management.
and I bet they are paid WAAAAAAAAAAY more than they could ever be paid in the real world
People like you make it real easy for corporate America to pay subsistence wages that continue to swell the ranks of the working poor. Today we have more than 46.5 million people in the US living below the Federal poverty line. Every person that works deserves a living wages, even those that have not finished HS. Unions gave us the 40 hr. work week, overtime, paid vacations and sick leave, pensions and health care and safe working conditions. That used to be the real world until the corporate driven campaign of Union bashing began to succeed thanks to scabs like you. Your envy and jealousy are blinding you.
fuck you ignorant cunt, check out their wages vs their actual qualifications
nobody has given me anything, I make my own way, I fairly divide up what is made with those who contribute, and I refuse to invest in stocks or mutual funds as they do nothing but extract wealth off the backs of the working while adding no value.
nobody owns shares in my corporation other than myself
you are clueless and living in a dream world of your own
Maybe in the very upper echelon but managers in the regional distribution centers are probably less than a comparable job in an insurance company, computer company or corporate headquaters
Even the top guy is way less the average CEO
Have you actually ever looked at the pay scale and what actual requirements those who hold them have? We're talking mere high school graduates.
Yes I have. I worked for the post office on two occasions. Do you realize how many people are considered part time flex and receive no benefits and shitty pay.
What is your point? It is obvious you don't know what you are talking about or you would produce some facts.
What do you have to gain by making hardworking postal workers look bad.
If you want to talk shit about the post office, talk about the middle managers,
they are dumber than fuck and in most cases get payed less than a carrier.
Look, I'll 'talk shit" about any of that group that I want to. Eat it.
The bottom line is they are civil servants and many of them are overpaid and many are outright thieves. Just like many other civil servants or elected officials.
Doesn't the post office civil service testing score a black person 10 points for being black and scores a native American a paltry 5
You sir are a fucking idiot.
I am talking shit about idiots now. That's my right.
You are a fucking igtard cunt and couldn't find a decent paying job outside civil service if your life depended on it.
YOUR POST IS A LIE. HERE IS THE TRUTH:
FedEx Plundering and the Piecemeal Privatization of the U.S. Postal Service
http://ironboltbruce.blog.com/2011/11/17/fedex-plundering-and-the-piecemeal-privatization-of-the-u-s-postal-service/
Great post.
But, the OP has proved that he isn't interested in the facts.
Cancel the post office so we can keep blowing up the ME. Thats real fuckin smart.
I wasn't aware that was the choice being made. So, keeping the Post Office as a pre-email museum is somehow connected to peace in the Middle East. This should be good, do tell.
Im just saying the entire country's priorities with their money are fucked up, from the gov to the bottom of hte 99%.
Yes, we have a lot of problems. The Post Office isn't the top of the list, it isn't the bottom of the list, but it certainly isn't OFF the list.
OMG another one. Government is not Satan, ok?
You're right, it isn't, but the government combined with unions come pretty close.
The opposite. We need unions to prevent government from unduly serving corporations over people.
Unions cause government to unduly serve its EMPLOYEES over people.
That's the government way. Set up - Subsidize - fail - Then bailout/takeover. Its all the same
this is really no different than when the trolley car was driven into extinction by industry - oil, auto, and tire manufacturers - see 60 Minutes.
The fucking scumbags destroy a perfectly good industry with clever manipulation in the interest of some other model -
like telecommunications.
the scumbags
The union thugs with ride the USPS train over the cliff and then blame everyone else for the crash. It's the typical union MO.
Know the facts. The postal funds were pilfered by other branches of government. That is the GAO and the CBO report. Unions have nothing to do with it. All the union bashers on this thread should begin to recognize that damage that union busting has done to our country; outsourcing of American jobs can only happen with the governments backing and support of the US corporations. With Unions severly weakend the workers had no representation in Congress to protect against outsourcing and scabs.
fawk em, they are overpaid and with perks many regular working people could only dream of having
Well as long as you keep bashing Unions you will have to continue dreaming about a real living wage.
Unions have nothing to do with this. Besides, I bill at 65/hr, I'm fine and all my real estate is paid for, free and clear, with absolutely nothing financed.
So you would deny others the right to a living wage.
I deny nothing to anyone. I have no sympathy to the postal workers who are grossly overpaid, ESPECIALLY the management, as they all receive far better than merely a "living wage".
Let me explain something to you, the labor unions in this country lost all power and respect when Regan fired the air traffic controllers and NARY any other union workers walked off their job that very minute. That was back when they had the power to shut down the whole damned country and I was all for them doing it, and not bending over while GOT and NAFTA etc sailed through assured this nation's manufacturing base would go overseas.
I can assure you the Treasury department's Labor Union is a mere formality in the vulgar amounts they are paid, merely to allow them lots of reasons to legally steal time and other horse crap.
The Postal Worker's Union is the same and their management, most of which have no qualifications, is in the very same boat.
Yeah, those treks in the heat of summer and the cold of winter are a major perk! A real dream job.
They can always quit and try finding a better paying job with many of them having virtually zero qualifications for much more than fast food.
That is not true. Every postal carrier I've ever met is intelligent and articulate. It is not easy getting jobs with the post office. Good day.
that's funny
Last month I sold an item on eBay to a guy in North Carolina. I live in NJ. I sent it priority complete with tracking. It took two weeks to get there. The PO couldn't track it and the problem was explained to me: someone forgot to scan it. The next week I sent a package to another town in NJ. They routed it to Massachusetts and it took 7 days for my package to go 40 miles.
The PO personnel are rude, surly and lazy. Shut down USPS.
It's typical government it's typical union. They prefer not dealing with things figuring they can extort money from taxpayers in the end. Thankfully, Congress isn't letting them pile up unfunded pension promises. We all know where that would end.
Even now, they still haven't done the obvious and stop Saturday delivery. It is one sorry organization.
There's a reason they call it "going postal".
And then there is the opposite antidote. I ordered a used camera lens from a guy on the Jersey coast. USPS got it out a day after the major hurricane and delivered it to me two days later during tropical storm warning.
There nothing but "tolerance for broken government". Recent history proves it.