Forum Post: Unpaid internships: legal slavery.
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 9, 2011, 2:09 p.m. EST by SocialDem16
(83)
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Good article on how unpaid internships exploit young workers. It should be law to require pay for internships at least minimum wage (a living wage - not our current minimum wage).
Internships are voluntary. You can leave whenever you want. The idea is that employers value experience so experience should be part of your education. Sometimes they pay sometimes they don't but the experience is valuable no matter how you slice it.
I've been told the line that internships are voluntary and employers value experience for years. They were pretty much NOT voluntary in getting into the film industry. I had to do work for free, or else I wouldn't get connections...which I didn't get anyway.
Then just recently, I got told that "hey, all those internships you did...they don't matter- no one even wants to see them on your resume." There was absolutely nothing of value to any of the internships I did. If there was, I wouldn't be jobless and starving.
I would recommend that people find a paying job rather than an internship. It's sad but they can prove to be a waste of time in some fields and at some times.
but when paid jobs are being replaced by unpaid internships is a way for employers to make more profit by getting free labor. There is another side to the argument and how is an internship voluntary. If you don't intern, you don't get the career you want, so technically you are forced, not by a guy with a gun of course, but indirectly through wanting your career.
I've never seen a paid job replaced by an internship. I've seen interns take up some of the duties of the other employees already there, this was an IT job just to be clear. It's not that they needed someone else to do it but the people attending asked to be there. I also am not aware of any company that requires you to intern to get a job.
There are plenty of statistics on paid jobs being replaced by non paid internships to argue this matter. One example is legal assistants who being replaced by unpaid law school students. The real factor is unpaid internships are an obstacle for poor American's to advance, which hampers socioeconomic mobility. And however you want to phrase it, you provide a service to these employers therefore you should be paid!
I would really have to see those statistics but as for your other point I would have to agree that it would create a problem if someone like me had to take an unpaid internship for a job.
Slavery, terrorism, Jihad.
Amazing, the scare terms improperly used on this site and in this movement to encite the masses.
Please read Ann Coulter's book "Demonic". She explained this phenomenon before it happened.
according to my daughter who works in the film industry, California just ended the unpaid internship programs. She says students can still do "observational" internships which is basically hanging around the set, but they can't do anything. So rather than paying interns, the industry is better off just hiring a production assistant (PA) if they really need something done. While in college my daughter got valuable experience and more importantly contacts while being an unpaid intern a few times.
Thats bullshit.
An education is far more important than worrying about 10 bucks an hour.
I have hired at least 6-8 interns over the past decade and all are working at fine jobs now and we stay in touch and are friends.
Forget about making intern wages and get your education and go out in the world and o something you like and make some money.
Think big!
I am, but keep in mind that if I intern, I give up my health insurance because I am A) over the age of 26 and B) I have to intern full time only allowing for a part time job on the side that is not sufficient to pay for an individual plan (who can afford that on part time wages), but that pay is more than enough to deny me medicaid coverage. Without talking about health care (I do support internships lol), in a recession, internships can be abused and replace paid labor. It should be illegal to get rid of all of your paid workers and take advantage of the economic times by hiring only free interns. At least that has to be protected from happening.
And I do work hard, I'm a law school student that busts my butt. I come from a poor farming immigrant family who came to this country, started a business and became part of the middle class. Housing market crashed and so did my families finances and we are just scrapping by. What was possible when my parents came to America is now looking bleak for me. It is a shame and I hope the OWS leads to change.
California is top on the list for unpaid internship.
Now that I disagree with. I learned ten times what I learned in school by working in unpaid internships. If you can get educational credits at the same time it is even better. Internships provide valuable skills to young people that you will able to use to get a good paying job. Sorry to have to disagree with you.
I never say internships are not valuable, even if not paid, but there are statistics out there that show businesses are actually laying off workers and replacing them with interns. What will happen next? If it can be abused, there should be protections. Not to mention, it is harder for someone who is poor to get educated, work, intern and survive, while it is cake for a rich kid to go to school and intern for free. I
I still think it is a good practice for young people but that is horrible if they are firing older employees to hire free labor. Isn't that age discrimination?
more than just age discrimination...it would be pay discrimination! favoring free labor over unpaid labor.
I do agree that it is a good practice to get into your desired field, but just like paid apprenticeships are required for business owners in construction, it should be required in all other fields, when college credit is impossible.
I think a lot of field have paid unpaid internships or apprentices. Your points are valid an need to be addressed. Check out our proposed declaration and action plan at:
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
I'm pretty sure that apprentices have to be paid, while interns don't. What's the difference between construction and the service sector that allows for unpaid workers for one, but requires the other to pay all workers? I know internships are valuable, even if unpaid, but I think we need to examine this issue especially in today's day and age.
I have read it, and thanks for reposting it. This movement is amazing and every second that I get, I will be marching in the street with the rest of the 99%!
keeping in mind, if that poor person is over the age of 26, so now he has to worry about health care and since he is interning cannot get health insurance because he cannot afford it, makes over the tiny amount that denies you Medicaid, and doesn't have the time to work 40 hours (there is a fixed amount of hours in a week) to get health insurance. Now say you were one of those people that worked hard at the same time as interning. Now suppose you were diagnosed with cancer. You are in the position where you have to pick, internship and part time job without health insurance or full time job with health insurance, but not in your desired occupation. See my point? Maybe if we had universal health care, we could work hard and intern at the same time without worrying about getting sick (working ridiculous hours can take its toll on a person's health) and not having insurance.
True, they particularly like to exploit young interns, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate Committee at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
According to http://thesaurus.com/browse/intern:
Intern is defined as an apprentice. However apprentice is not a synonym for intern. There are Federal laws regarding the apprentice:
http://www.lni.wa.gov/TradesLicensing/Apprenticeship/LawRulePol/default.asp#FederalRegs
No pay for any work is exploitation no matter the end result.
Isn't an actual "internship" where you earn credit toward your degree while working?
I've gone through six unpaid internships a this point. I haven't ever gotten anything from any of my internships except a kick in the ass out the door at the end of them. Each internship was done for "connections" and "experience." Needless to say, I got no connections from them, or else I would have a job, and I got little experience that I couldn't have gotten while actually being paid for my work.
These people are doing the right thing:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/black-swan-interns-sue-fox-searchlight-241739
I have a friend who worked an unpaid internship for 3 months that landed him a great job when it was over; a job he has had for the last 6 years which pays him well over six figures and that he is very happy at.
Considering he had this job for 6 years, he must have had this internship before the Great Recession. At least people had options then and paid internships existed. There are always exceptions, but if you come from a family without money, and are forced to work for no money to get a career, how are you supposed to live? You are providing a service, therefore you should be getting paid. The main point of the article is that internships are replacing paid jobs, which reflects the abuse of internships.
Who's forcing anyone to do anything? My friend worked his internship while in school and living off of student loans... He actually approached the company and offered to intern for three months to show them the value of hiring him and to learn in the process. The company wasn't offering any internships; he created one so he could get a foot in the door.
forced in the sense that without working for free, it is highly unlikely you will get a job in your desired field, didn't mean by gun point lol. You are not forced to work either then, but do require it to make money and buy food to eat and survive. But stories of success, like in the case of your friend make me happy, but the opportunities he had are different from the opportunities of today, which will be completely different tomorrow. The fact is, if there were no restrictions at all on internships and labor laws to prevent the abuse, what is stopping companies from firing everyone and replacing them with unpaid interns, even if they are experienced? Hey, why not prove yourself for three years before I pay you (even though you worked in the field for years)? See where this is going. I think we need to put some laws on the book to prevent this from being abused because it is being abused today. Maybe unpaid internships can exist for college credit, but not when you already have the degree?
Equality of opportunity, an ideal this country was built on requires internships to be paid, so poor students can survive long enough to get a paid job. All of these crazy anti-socialists who say everything we are doing is socialist forget about this ideal, equality of opportunity.
How do unpaid internships deny equal opportunity? Guess what, if there were only paid internships (especially if it's $20 an hour or whatever ridiculous wage you think is "living") there would BE NO INTERNSHIPS PERIOD. Students are poor, life is difficult at times, and the government can't stop it from being so.
Legal slavery, lol. Sounds like someone has had it way too easy their whole life, and now that things are hard all they know how to do is cry for mommy and daddy, or in this case, the government,
And btw, I am a hard working human being, so think before you speak because you don't know me. I graduated at the top of my class with a B.A. in Political Science and now a law student and without government funding, I wouldn't have been able to achieve that. Unlike a lot of students who rushed through the degrees without taking breaks in between, I responsibly saved up in between and took some time off so I could afford to go without help from my mommy and daddy, but still do need grants and scholarships to get through. Btw I started working in construction at the age of 12 and have been working hard in construction since, so screw yourself - pompous asshole.
I owe you an apology for that. So I'm sorry, especially since I called you out for ad hominems later. Honestly, I didn't realize you were the OP.
It's still a hyperbole that detracts from your otherwise reasoned argument.
Sounds like we have a similar life experience, but my degree is in the natural sciences and now I'm working toward a Ph. D. I'm now in an even worse position than the people looking for bachelor's level positions in my field (not sure if that's the case for J.D.'s as well). The education glut is even more of a problem with advanced degrees (the ratio of graduates to entry-level positions is really really bad).
Apology accepted and I appreciate you being on this board and discussing things in this forum, but we all have to keep our cool and respect each other - hard to do in relation to politics - a fact I learned in studying political science. Btw, I am well aware of the education glut, especially when it comes to legal careers. There is an overabundance of lawyers and it scares the crap out of me! Unfortunately law is my passion, so I guess I will work extra hard to stick out and hopefully I will land a decent job. I don't want excess so I don't need 100k plus. Just enough to survive and take care of my family will suffice. And I am sorry about your bad situation, hopefully whatever comes out of this movement will make things better for ALL of us.
If all the movement does is scare politicians straight, it will have made things better. Which is why I hope it keeps its steam for at least another year and affects people's votes. I have to /facepalm to all the posts on here to the tune of "don't vote, the system is broken." The system is broken in part because so few people have voted.
agreed, but as we see now, it requires more than voting. Every now and then, we need to challenge our leaders to improve on our current situation, it is just scary that we let it go this far. My fingers are crossed too and I will continue to go down to the protests when time and money allows - crappy fact of capitalism lol. This brings me to another point that I have seen on many forums and comments under articles that the unemployed campers at the parks are worthless lowlifes that should be working. Sometimes actions and their results are more important than money and these people are sacrificing their financial security to represent us as Americans. I commend them and appreciate everything they are doing for us!
I didn't ask for 20$ an hour, I said we need a living wage for these people. How is unpaid internships equality of opportunity? If I am rich, and I have my parents supporting me, I can take on an unpaid internship without a problem. However, if I am poor and come from a poor family, I will think twice about an unpaid internship. And if I do take on the unpaid internship and do what a lot of poor Americans are forced to do and add two part time jobs on top of my 40 hour internship, I risk hurting my health because I'm working 80hrs plus. Since, it is an internship there are no health benefits, if I get sick, I am now in debt, and most likely this ugly cycle will continue. Where do you see equality of opportunity?
You made the claim, you bear the burden of proof. By the way, you can work an internship while in school. That's the way it's usually done.
Exactly why I explained my claim and clarified it? Sounds like you are a really logical person lmao. And now you're talking about going to school, interning for free, and adding a paid job on top of that. Sounds like that opportunity is becoming less and less possible as you speak.
And this all when Johnny Mr Elite had his mommy and daddy pay for his education, didn't need a job to get by, and could intern without a problem. How is Johnny getting a well paying job after all this hard work? It was basically given to him by his parents!
Maybe for the 1% that's how it is. Not for the others you're alienating by lumping in anyone who didn't have to take out student loans as the elite. My wife's parents paid for her college, but she had to volunteer and work a part time job while in college so she'd have experience when she got out. It still took her almost a year to find a job.
You're right, those opportunities are drying up. But what you're asking for won't help. If companies have to pay every intern, they just won't have interns. You can't force them to.
And you can spare me the ad hominems, also not a productive tactic.
It will force them to do what the construction world has done for years, pay their apprentices! It becomes a simple business decision, can I afford an intern or not (part of running a business!)? You are providing a service and should be paid for said service. Not saying you should be paid a ridiculous amount, but enough to get back and forth to that internship and food because we are all human and require that to survive. So you think it is just for me to fire all of my workers and replace them with unpaid interns, just because I can?
Another way to phrase it, why should my hard work as an intern increase the profit margins of my boss and I get nothing in return financially? Pretty good conservative argument I may say and self centered like most of their arguments. They are getting something for free and why should anybody get anything for free.
In construction, you might be able to get your money's worth out of an apprentice.
In other fields, some interns add no value. They take up an employee's time in training them and often, their supervisor spends more time checking their work than they would have spent doing it themselves. Some interns are great, and the company does get a sweet deal, and the intern gets a shining recommendation. That seems fair to me.
Same goes for apprentices, some are good and make you money, some are horrible and create havoc. Jobs get messed up and that costs a lot of money, especially considering profit margins are so tiny (in this recession - used to be better) that one tiny mess up or 4 extra hours costs you and leads to doing a job for free or losing money on the job.
Since you seem like a reasonable human being, I think you would agree with the fact that they shouldn't be abused and can be abused. Maybe one month on the job training for free and after that minimum wage? I'm not completely against compromise. Hey, before the recession, internships were an awesome vehicle to get ahead, but facts are, when economic times are hard, using interns as free labor can and will be abused and we need to examine for solutions.
Yeah, I don't know. The thing I do really worry about is that companies will just stop offering internships period and instead only hire people who already have experience. We are seeing that happen even now, why would they pay someone without any experience when they can find someone who got laid off from a similar job? It's something that's not fair, but there might not be a fair solution either, and in those cases I think it's better to have the government stay out.
Okay well here's where we should def be protected and would at least level the playing field enough so you don't die and get into debt at the same time. If you are over the age of 26 (cannot get coverage under your parents policy), just graduated with a Ph.d. in psychology, you now have to intern full time, and work part time, so you cannot get health insurance and cannot afford it with your part time job (what part time job would give you enough money to allow you to pay $400 plus for an individual plan?). So suppose you get cancer when this is going on, you are now screwed because you chose to intern instead of working in a less meaningful job that would've given you health insurance. So you might end up in 100k plus debt and/or didn't get the right treatment so you die. I guess if we had universal health care it would alter my view, so if our agreement on universal health care was realized, our area of disagreement wouldn't be so divergent.
Companies don't hire any interns now. Now you are unemployed and don't have work experience. Think before you speak.
please clarify because how you worded this really sounds like you thought before you spoke.
because most degrees are worthless. Unpaid internship is a reciprical exchange where you trade you time for training by the company. Its actually how most people get their jobs after college. By trying to force companies to paid above market wages for your labor, companies may find it easier to simply replace interns with temps because of work flow stability. Now you'll have people with worthless degrees, with no work experience, becoming less employable by the minute.
How is offering minimum wage above market wages?
Maybe we need to foster an economy where someone doesn't NEED a college degree to get a job.
Maybe if we stopped outsourcing...
That would be helpful, which can take the form of abolishing free trade and imposing heavy tariffs on imported goods. However, jobs will continue to become obsolete, so we need to provide education to those people so they can find a new job in a new field.
But someday those jobs will become obsolete and we'll need to educate them more to find different jobs. It'll be a continuing loop.
but increasing access to these new jobs is the right thing to do and economically productive. A more educated population is helpful to the economic advancement of any nation. And your claim about new jobs becoming obsolete and then the jobs that replaced them becoming obsolete as an ongoing cycle just furthers my point that we need to provide education to those who become unemployed as a result of that newly made obsolete job.
Increasing the access to these new jobs IS the right thing to do.
However, I don't necessarily agree that an educated population is intrinsically helpful to the economic advancement of any nation.
It all, ultimately, depends on what is being taught. Neil Postman, in his book The End of Education wrote, "...at it's best, schooling can be about how to make a life, which is quite different from how to make a living."
Our current education system encourages students on how to make a living, but doesn't help them so much on how to make a life. This kind of education only contributes to the problem and worry of money and corruption.
I think I have a new book to read. I will check it out! I am intrigued.
And it is true that education contributes to the "get money" attitude above all else. There is more to humanity then making money and I think you touched on that nicely, but if we examine the world from purely economic standpoint, education will lead to a more productive and efficient citizenry, which would increase GDP and thus growth, without examining the human factor. A good counter to that is to examine countries by how happy their population is, which is honestly the true measure of a nation's success and takes into consideration the human element. However, defining happiness is subjective and makes it difficult to measure and compare.
I agree with your suggestion we measure happiness rather than GDP as a measure of a country's success (and also agree on the ambiguity of such a thing).
My only problem with an education is the way in which theories proselytized to students is taken without real world experience. A professor can say forever, "This is how economics works." But who knows? Does it really? How do we truly measure the effects of Capitalism? Or even Technology? Is Technology good? How do we measure that? Technology makes people live longer, but do they live happier? Capitalism makes some individuals live wealthier, but do they live happier? I reserve the same criticism for Communism and Socialism.
I hope you don't mind me quoting Neil Postman once again:
"I began my career as an elementary school teacher and have not for a single moment abandoned the idea that many of our most vexing and painful social problems could be ameliorated if we knew how to school our young."
Good quote, if only we knew "how" to educate our young, I agree that we wouldn't be in this mess today.
Unfortunately, I can't give a definite answer as to how to educate our young.
I hope we continue to think about this and someday we'll figure it out.
Yes debates like ours help iron out the details and make us improve upon what we already have. Thanks for the healthy debate and helping me improve on my belief. I am going to go down to my local bookstore (family owned) and buy or order a copy tomorrow.
Thank you also. It was refreshing and invigorating speaking with you. Let's keep on fighting.
On my part, I vow to restrict myself from ordering from Amazon from here on. Thank you for inspiring me on my convictions.
You're welcome and thanks for being respectful!
i dont want to learn new skills, ban automobiles, they are taking away jobs from the horse and buggy industry! if we banned automobiles, america will have a strong carriage and thoroughbred industry. so people like me can earn a living wage.
We don't need to ban anything.
Just realize we don't really need these things.