Forum Post: Unions? Say it isn't so ....
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 3, 2011, 8:19 p.m. EST by Hicard
(30)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I have been following this closely and compiling supplies for campers and a medium size group. After hearing that unions are letching on to this beautiful movement we are deflated, we all are changing our plans and for me as the catalyst of our group its a Huge bummer.As unions leverage the bosses and companies that hire them into paying ridiculous wages and retirement it is easy to see why these jobs are outsourced. Please bring this up at GA and make some sort of announcement as I am also aware of other groups in LA and SF along with individuals that are now turning their backs cause of union involvement.
Super important to look at unions in sense of decreased power and corruption. But you need to know that many union members are sleep=walking through their jobs - union dues are mandatory and employees don't care because they have a job. So many employees who are union members don't read their contracts to even know what their rights are, and even if they did, are afraid to speak out. Many bosses are of different unions. or non-unioned, and don't respect the difference (mostly hourly employees regardless). I have first hand experience with this. Very scary. It's all about fear - fear of losing the job they have, even though it's low paying. Fear of speaking up for fear of losing job. I hate feeling sooooo powerless. And, if anyone knows, what is the EASIEST way to send some food to NYC???
Solid perspective, thank you! Please encourage the recipient of occupywallst email to bring this up at GA.
General@occupywallst.org
Yeah, make sure the movement that fought for child labor laws, the 8 hour day, the WEEKEND, national health coverage, etc., etc. ... make sure they're not part of this. One union, the TWU, can bring NY business to its knees, but yeah, go tell 'em to get lost. The PSC fights tuition hikes on students every step of the way, but tell them to go back to their classes. In the union movement, there are pro-democracy forces fighting "business unionism" but go ahead. Tell 'em to beat it. After all-- we wouldn't want to be united against our corporate masters, would we?
Easy David, I think your missing the point. It's not about promoting your union or any other, exactly the point I'm trying to make. Thank you for helping define my message
the core issue here is to stabilize our direction solidly and not be swayed by externalized forces their direction. i think any group that wants to join in solidarity with us should be allowed to do so. But the movement is not here to be a vehicle for the ideas or purposes of labor unions, which are themselves flawed meta entities . rather than fight the problem its still smarter to get clear on the direction, because there are a thousand different special interests that will want to sway things one way or some other. Get the center clear and get centered, and then it does not matter who we associate with.
sorry, i do know exactly what feudalism is. You trying to talk about its main features and then say that other features of feudalism are not the feudalism is silly. The dominant or single most relevant point is land ownership, certainly, but there are other features of feudalism, one of which is most certainly taxes, and to the point, by definition taxation as such begins in feudal systems. It is remarkably futile and silly to argue with me. It would be wiser to stop and take your opportunity to chat with the DJIN. capitalism is ALSO a system which has NEVER existed.
the core issues; 1. Corporate Personhood. 2. Caste Warfare; they started it. 3. Its legal to lie to the USA public. 4. They are OUR airwaves. They should be used for WETHEPEOPLE not leased by the government to corporations. Put Local colleges in charge of all the media. Arrest and seize all mass media devices and then give those devices straight out to the local colleges, including the land they sit on. We need education public media; not legalized lying and propaganda wars against the people. 5. Education reform. Everyones being kept stupid and ignorant on purpose in school and repugnicons want to argue about how to pay or punish teachers. We need child centered education reform, not a con scam to privatize education and thus score all our children for corporate zombotification. 6. Free market system. Not slave market system. Not caste market system. Not Caste warfare market system. Not rigged Casino. Not making something off of nothing and making bubbles to grease a gravy train either. Free market system. We must have one of those. Its time to have one of those. We have NEVER YET had one of those. 7. Realistic regulation of the government to regulate and control corporations so that what they do is fair and just and ethical and under control instead of a parade of unleashed godzillas turning the masses into to toe jam. 8. Real and direct representation, including no more lobbying, and including an evolutionary use of the internet with organized forums and wikis replacing the old style of congressional/ mayoral office.
"Right, but that still doesn't preclude taxation, which is in fact necessary to regulate the value of money"
nope. taxation period of any kind is merely and only a means to the end of creating a caste system. And even deeper, taxation dynamically entropizes a system, so its not only not necessary to regulate money, its the single largest entropic contributor to the system. The ONLY reason why we pay taxes is thats the feudal system; the idea that we pay anything remotely approaching the same thing or fair to what the rich pay is preposterous. The whole point of taxes is to distribute wealth from the poor to the rich. period.
gawdoftruth (Santa Barbara, CA) 1 points 0 seconds ago
"the end goal product should be that every small community takes care of its own. Any federal system is a problem definition of something requiring more serious attention to solve. long term social programs managed by nation sized meta entities is a disaster not only socially and civilly but to the people who get third rate borg social services. A well functioning system does not need a welfare system, it only has a highly evolved net which catches people and only involves less than one percent of the population at any given time, not punishing but rehabing and educating folks. Until such time as that end goal is achieved, no hand outs is a paradox... you have to spend time and thus money in order to fix the problems till their fixed past needing time or money."
"Why aren't u in office???"
aspergers syndrome. you want to run,? i can ghost write your platform? :)
↥
"Understood we need more ideas then politicians anyway. The fixes are so simple but so difficult to get implemented."
↧ gawdoftruth (Santa Barbara, CA) 1 points 0 seconds ago
i'm running for chief of staff. bit early to announce yet since i have no clue whos running on my ticket for president?
http://forums.keller2012.com/index.php i created this forum org structure. but scott keller turned out to be an idiot.
Check your Union at the door this is for the people ... The peoples Union ... the people are the bosses
Hicard,
The less people there are involved that think like you, the less you will like the results.
Food for thought.
I appreciate that and it's a nice reply. My concern is detailed in my reply to powertothepeople. Redgar has food for thought as well
This is a pro-democracy movement. There is no reason why unions, religious organizations, anti-union organizations, anti-religious organizations, etc. shouldn't be able to join.
Gammapoint.. Religious organizations didn't create a boom in Chinese manufacturing, leaving a job vacuum in our country. Part of my interest as would be occupier is the outsourcing of jobs and the tentacles timeline etc behind this
Hicard, union issues and such things are in my opinion outside the scope of this movement. We can deal with these things when pro-democracy reforms have been made.
I like that idea. My request would then be to remove any title or union identification in the press, website etc. Since we are the 99% what is the point of affiliating with unions as if we the people should be so lucky?
If unions want to join support then I'm fine with people reporting that. If Bill O'Reilly wants to join the march I'm fine with that being reported too.
Don't let your problem with unions get in the way of democracy. Those opposed to true democracy want us to turn on each other.
I agree with you 1000% but that is not the point of my posting. It's the mention of union affiliation that sends A conflicting message to some. and is concerning to others
Bring on Bill!
Yes yes agree
The problem with unions is that they have used the force of government in many states to force people to join the union whether or not they want to join. All people should be free to join or not join a union. And by not joining they shouldn't be forced to pay union dues anyway. Unions here in NJ are corrupt.
Another great point, thank you
The 99% includes everyone who is not a billionaire. Are you proposing that unionized workers should not be included and not allowed to participate?
Be careful do not allow the movement to be co opted The Peoples movement not democrat or republican or anything else
yes, exactly! just wrote a longer version of this : )
I'm saying be careful, please discuss why and or how unions may influence companies expenses going beyond a reasonable amount because of pensions and retirement that are equal or near normal wages. Not saying retirement is bad, but if you can't be competitive cause of these outrageous union demands you are forced to close or go where you can be competitive. It's a bag of worms, yes but the movement is cleaner without unions.
I don't think any organization should be allowed to co-opt. There is a danger of that if powerful orgs make large donations could be unions, political campaigns, you get the idea. So on that count I agree. GREAT if unions & union members are in solidarity with us but not good if they can use too much influence to co-opt. Right now, in NY the TWU went to court because the bus drivers want to refuse to transport arrested demonstrators. That kind of support is a good thing. But no "agenda-driven" org should be able to take over. From what I have seen so far - this movement is people driven and depending on the time & money of all who support. Hoping it will remain grassroots and inclusive of everyone. We have common goals - we as people can work together on common goals and simply opt out of supporting particular issues we don't like, yes?
That is great news! And yes we as the people are powerful just concerned that these union orgs are salivating at the op to push an agenda by piggy backing this wonderful people driven movement. There ways can be a bit suspect at best
Maybe we can find our own buses and rent them to the nypd to fundraise that's free market baby!
I'm all for support of the unions. This fight has been their fight forever! UNIONS ARE NECESSARY TO FIGHT AGAINST CORPORATE GREED! Without them the working people would have no advocates, no power. Read your history.They are the power to really bring about change in the workplace and elsewhere for everyone, not just those in the unions. Without them we'd still be working 100 hr. weeks, have children in mines, no safety for workers, no min. wage, no social security, no anything good.
No anything good? Not sure I follow that. Anyway, to reply to your post all I can say is it's not 1930 anymore things change and we must be malleable as in fact the world is a far different place than when you refer