Forum Post: Truth and Justice, How to Obtain it, and Why???
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 27, 2011, 11:49 a.m. EST by Puzzlin
(2898)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I am firmly convinced that the passionate will for justice and truth has done more to improve {the human condition} than calculating political shrewdness which in the long run only breeds general mistrust.
Albert Einstein
Such is the irresistible nature of truth that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
Thomas Paine
Prejudice is a great time saver. You can form opinions without having to get the facts.
E. B. White
The truth does not cease to exist because it is ignored.
Aldous Huxley
And I wish no one to believe anything I have written, unless he is personally persuaded by the evidence of reason.
Descartes
Personally, in my experience, the most important part of any discourse is centered exactly and completely on the Truth.
I am a Truth Seeker
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THE PUZZLER .........................................................................................................................................................
In an ideal world this would be great but it appears the majority of people do not embrace the truth which is a shame.
Barb,
Your right! This is like a trial balloon to see what interest there is in this forum for Truth and Justice. I expected this, but, I needed confirmation in my own pursuit of Truth.
Barb, what's beautiful about this, is whether we may like it or not, this is the Truth revealed here.
Thanks for possibly being the only poster this thread is able to glean!
Good for you! Sow these seeds, just not here! Good Luck! You'll need it!
You know Puzzlin when I was in my 20's I was still very naive and thought that people were raised like me to be honest and when you say you are going to something, you follow through with it.
I quickly learned very few wanted to tell the truth let alone want to hear it. People make promises that they don't keep which creates distrust. This is a plague of distrust, dishonesty, corruption, and so on among society today. We are marching towards our own extinction and nobody wants to face this reality when it could all have been avoided.
Exactly, you understand. I was too, in my younger years, naive. It's typical. But, also, having grown up during the crazy Vietnam War Daze (but not old enough to be drafted into the bloody malaise) I also realized that being skeptical was wise. I started honing my skills for detecting the bull shit and starting on a long hard path towards the Truth.
I understand very well why many avoid it. It's not easy and it takes discipline. You get Truth when you work hard to find it. Sometimes you must fight for it. Which I always will, no matter what. Even if I'm the only one!
Now, the trolls here, know another Truth. It is easy sleazy to be a Troll. Facts are not important to them so they save time by not searching them out. They know curse words that they find invigorating. They delight in putting others down. It's like recess time on the playground for third graders! They try to see how much they can get away with. They relish in it.
It's so nice to realize that not all is lost here. Your here and there's a few others around who have some respect. But, this forum suffers mostly because the moderation here is very lax. The trolls here have found almost limitless levels of which they can degrade to. It's like fertile ground to produce more and more. They grow and prosper here very well.
Frankly, I have surprised myself that I still come here. I have really lowered my expectation of this forum to alleviate some of the frustration. But I have had some success at times just like now there's hope that somehow someone gets the message and realizes this one thing:
If everyone is wrong, then nobody is right!
Thanks Barb, your a beautiful light in this dark haunted forest!
So are you Puzzlin and I feel as you do at times with all of the trolls that are hear to destroy it. At times I feel like giving up here but I also remind myself that if I do, I will not be able to say that I tried to educate the masses about the truth. I can;t live with my conscious if I do nothing. Of course there are times when I get discouraged and my feelings are conveyed here on some days but for the most part I feel obligated to make a stand and speak the truth to plant seeds in the minds of people not yet convinced or awake yet. I try to look at trolls this way in that bad publicity is just as good as good publicity and its when it is ignored that's when you lose the fight.
Please stay strong and stick with it because we are in an uphill battle that is going to take a long time before any progress is made. I never wanted to live in a world full of evil and hateful people so I still have faith in humanity that many are not like that and want a better world for the future.
SO right you are. In the search for the truth we do make progress and certainly in the end it's always worth it. Definitely. I found this to be so true myself. But the trolls are hopeless I believe. They are way too angered and hate-filled to ever open up to the Truth. I say this out of experience, and having been on the other side myself years ago in another forum. I was nice clever troll. Or, in this other forum I would not have lasted a day there. They could beat me silly, blast me, belittle me, curse me out and anything and everything to get me to go away. Then they, (after about a year), started liking me hanging around. I never did what they did to me.
And then one day, I just went off, they rubbed off on me, and I attacked. Immediately I was banned, finished. Some stuck up for me but when I gave them a dose of their own medicine they reacted. I never went back to that forum.
So. boiling it down, we become them eventually. If hang with bad people long enough we begin to identify with them. Very psychological. I know this is way deep but let me try to put this way for you.
If we keep repeating a lie as if it were true but we know it's not, eventually we will believe it. Example: Social Security isn't in trouble. Is that hard to believe? It probably is because this lie is repeated over and over by just about everyone. But, if do the research you'll find that it's mostly a huge myth. This is the Truth. Most people can't fathom this because everyone says it's on the verge of collapse.
Thanks Barb. I hope this helps. Also, stick around, we do make a difference. One reason the trolls have full rein in here is many good people already left here after being insulted. Truthfully if I was Jewish, I would not last much longer than two days. The first antisemitic post sends them flying out of here. It's so insulting, it was right then I realized the trolls had no limit here. Those posts are here, they stay. I was astounded and beside myself. I can't say I blame them for leaving I completely understand. I demand respect and here you have to check that at the door. The trolls have best of all worlds here, and people who demand respect get sucker punched in almost no time flat.
Anyway, it's ends in duality as usual. It's good and it's bad. You'll know when your time has come. But do stay. Your right about that in this moment.
The biggest part for us really is to not condone the bad behavior. I label them quickly and never debate with them. I tell them to show respect first. It trains them. That does work. (I actually reformed one this way.) If you debate with them and their bad language they feel emboldened and it tells them that really their not so bad. But really they are that bad.
If they begin rubbing off, you will know it's time to go. If you feel empathy for these foul mouths you are already crossing that line.
Great discussion. Thanks again Barb!!!
THE PUZZLER
You think this forum is bad at times, have you ever been to a science forum? Some of them are so ruthless it is painful at times but it makes me do one of two things - ignore them or go do more research on the subject so I am better armed.
I don't feel empathy for foul mouth people because someday they are going to realize how immature and foolish they are.
So right you are. It's nothing to be proud of for sure. They sense it but somewhere down the line they'll feel the real gravity of it.
Thanks for posting!!!
Irresistible nature of truth as Thomas Paine put it!!!
It's evident!!!
The Puzzler
What's the Truth about these Trolls in here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxJTwbHdH6k
Excellent link, thanks!!!!!!!
THE PUZZLER
You are very welcome. Every American should listen her!
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Zen Dog. they are classics which will be read people centuries from now. Principles never end really. They endure!
yes they are!
I just wish more here would read & post here.
Anybody up for Truth and Justice and the American way???
Or have the trolls just completely taken over with their brand of discussion.
Especially disgusting is Hate rants against our Jewish friends. It abhors me to what end they will go or not go. It's just all out hate spewing
For what end???
Tell me!
Anyone???
Too busy trolling to discuss something important?
Knowledge IS Power.....
But what kind?
Democracy cannot happen without truth. Truth protects love and love protects life. Power must serve love.
Free speech is not enough, truth cannot be shared, information vital to survival must be shared or life may not survive.
Article 5 of the constitution was designed for this situation. It is our first and last constitutional right and originates in the Declaration of Independence.
--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Lessig power point on article V http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpbfY-atMk
Lots of facts here about Article V. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
Article V conference, Lawrence Lessig at harvard 9/25/11-other attendee video comments http://vimeo.com/31464745 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-7ikbvu0Y8
Very good post!
Thanks! Some ancient perspective on natural laws that I've learned from Indigenous peoples.
Most importantly, it shows that article 5 extends the intent of the Declaration of Independence and does it before any other right. We need to unify on this point. That is a real need too.
Thanks again! This is a very golden path to be own and perhaps the most challenging of all, but the truth is always worth the effort!
THE PUZZLER
The first step-
We have a large number of great, well thought out, COMPLICATED ideas that will require a huge amount of "selling" and “explanation" and will garner GREAT OPPOSITION.
Every one of our goals can only be achieved by cutting the incestuous link between washington and money - we MUST start here:
..................................ACTION
We need to be realistic & pick an issue that is simple – and that is proven popular -
that 83% of Americans already agree on -
That even 56% of TP already agree on -
that will bring together the people in OWS with the people outside of OWS.
Everybody wins!
Our only immediate goal should be to pass a constitutional amendment to counter Supreme Court decision Citizens United (2010) , that enable unlimited amounts of anonymous money to flood into our political system.
“Corporations and organizations are not a persons &
have no personhood rights”
We don’t have to explain or persuade people to accept our position – we only have to persuade them to ACT based on their own position. Pursuing this goal will prove to the world that we, at OWS, are a serious realistic Movement, with serious realistic goals. Achieving this goal will make virtually every other goal – jobs, taxes, infrastructure, Medicare – much easier to achieve –
by disarming our greatest enemy – GREED.
THE SUCCESS STORY OF THE AMENDING PROCESS The Prohibition movement started as a disjointed effort by conservative teetotalers who thought the consumption of alcohol was immoral. They ransacked saloons and garnered press coverage here and there for a few years. Then they began to gain support from the liberals because many considered alcohol partially responsible for spousal and child abuse, among other social ills. This odd alliance, after many years of failing to influence change consistently across jurisdictions, decided to concentrate on one issue nationally—a constitutional amendment. They pressured all politicians on every level to sign a pledge to support the amendment. Any who did not, they defeated easily at the ballot box since they controlled a huge number of liberal, and conservative and independent swing votes in every election. By being a single-issue constituency attacking from all sides of the political spectrum, they very quickly amassed enough votes (2/3) to pass the amendment in Congress. And, within just 17 months, they were successful in getting ¾ of the state legislatures to ratify the constitutional amendment into law. (Others were ratified even faster: Eight —took less than a year. The 26th, granting 18-year-olds the right to vote, took just three months and eight days.)
If they could tie the left and right into a success -
WHY CAN'T WE ??????????
I feel that we should stay with this simple text to overturn CU:
”corporations are not people” and “money is not free speech”
for four simple reasons and one – not so simple:
1
83% of Americans have already opposed CU in the ABC/Washington post poll and the above
IS THEIR POSITION ALREADY.
2
We don’t have to work to convince people on the validity of our position.
3
Simple is almost always better.
4
This simple Amendment is REQUIRED to overturn CU.
And all other electoral reform can be passed through the normal legislative process.
5
OWS and these pages are chock full of ( mostly ) excellent ideas to improve our country.
All of them have strong advocates – and some have strong opposition.
None of them has been “pre-approved” by 83% of Americans !
Pursuing this goal – without additional specifics is exactly what Americans want.
What do we want? Look at that almost endless list of demands – goals - aims.
Tax the rich. End the Fed. Jobs for all, Medicare for all. So easy to state! Can you imagine how hard it would be to formulate a “sales pitch” for any of these to convince your Republican friends to vote for any of them?
83% of Americans have ALREADY “voted” against CU. And 76% of the Rs did too.
All we have to do ask Americans is to pressure their representatives – by letters - emails – petitions.
Wanna take your family on vacation?
Convince the 7 year old and the 10 year old to go to Mt Rushmore.
Then try to convince them to go to Disneyland.
Prioritizing this goal will introduce us to the world – not as a bunch of hippie radical anarchist socialist commie rabblerousers – but as a responsible, mature movement that is fighting for what America wants.
I feel that using the tactics of the NRA, the AARP an the TP – who all represent a minority – who have successfully used their voting power to achieve their minority goals - plus the Prohibition Amendment tactics – bringing all sides together - is a straight path for us to success that cannot fail to enable us to create and complete one MAJORITY task.
Join the Restore Democracy Working Group at
............. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYCRDWG
Plan details with supporting documentation at: http://bit.ly/vK2pGI
RDWG meetings - 60 Wall St - 6-8PM - Wednesdays_
It's a good idea to learn what worked best in the past and use what we know now for the perfect balance to get these ideas incubated.
Wow, what a post! Thanks for that. Obviously you are on the road towards the Truth and I commend you on that. So, you do know it's difficult. That's a wise idea to have.
Prohibition. Hmmmm. I guess the problem here with that analogy is it won after great effort and then lost miserably as it went against another Truth. People like alcohol, and goes well with us being human. It had been in human history for as long recorded history was being made.
The amazing part is somehow the prohibitionists got people to forget about how steeped it was in culture and how bad the blowback would be. (Kind of like our glorious war on drugs today) And when prohibition went into effect, the cure was so horrid it was way worse than the disease. The prohibitionists were very arrogant and forced their ideas down the throats of Americans even to get it passed as an amendment. It was mistaken at the root.
So, the long and short of this, maybe the prohibition movement isn't the right one to model yours after. Don't get me wrong. I agree in principle with what your trying to do. But tread carefully my friend. Just think about it.
Thanks and Good Luck!
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