Forum Post: Time to think about going home
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 19, 2011, 10:31 p.m. EST by moneyman
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I have been to OWS several times as I have a friend that is "occupying wall street". I have read through the posts and even posted myself. The conclusion that I have come to is that First: Som of the ideas/demands and supposed solutions coming out of OWS are so naive and unrealistic that I cannot imaging that ANYBODY is taking OWS serious regarding it's "positions" on political and espeically on financial matters. The demand to forgive all student debt is silly to the core. Ya signed on the bottom line and to quote one OWS protester regarding the cleaning last week, "you can't change the rules in the middle of the game", well agreeing to pay for your education via a student loan and then saying "hey I don't want to pay it back, forgive the debt" reeks of irony. Next it is the visual carnival aspect that got OWS in the news and with that the kind hearted backing of people with a little extra money to spare to the tune of 300K. Just prooves that as horrible as things are people still apparently have money enough to be generous. This is the fundamental problem with OWS although there are problems in this country there have always been problems. The search for eutopia is a futile one. Finally, the OWS as I have indicated to a friend that is Occupying Wall Street (and straining the hell out of our relationship) is that it is resembling more of a hunger strike than an actual political or social movement. The OWS movement is using 19th century tactics of "holding zucotti park" at all costs convinced that with the retaking of the park will result in a death blow to the movement. I would sugggest that the library stock plenty of copies of War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy, it depicts how Napoleon could occupy the capital city of St. Petersburg but lose occupation and the war because of the harsh winter. I would suggest that OWS put it's 300K into creative ways to Cyperize (if that is a word) the Occupation and to go home otherwise the only thing OWS martyrs are going to get is hypothermia and a gradually indifferent audience.
look -- we are just bringing attention to a problem and demanding that something be done about it. our issues, priorities, strengths, and weaknesses are as diverse as we are. if you have an issue that you think is important, come down and make a sign and hold it. listen. don't worry so much. change can be fun, even if it's cold
^Hell yea^ I hope they can all stay warm =]
I'm not going to bring a sign, I went to duane reade on broadway and bought a bunch of deodorant for the protesters in the park, they can make their point and will garner more sympathy if they don't smell. You are missing the point, it does not have to be a quasi hunger stike. that is really what the literal "occupation" is devolving into. The GA or whatever you call it should use it's donated money etc. to organize continued marches and protests not just from the literal occupiers but from sypathetic folks via twitter and facebook that will come out and protest and then go home (if they have one) to a warm bed. I have seen the crowd ebb and flow during the week and the weekends. But frankly the "occupiers" that are sleeping over in zucotti park are martyring their health both mental and physical when there are other less taxing ways to protest. that is all I am saying.
remember valley forge
Honestly this site has a lot of personal views. You protest for what you believe in and if you dont then go home. No one is forcing you to be a part of this movement. Yes I understand student loans cannot be forgiven but thats not what OWS is about. And it isnt about handouts I am so sick of reading about how OWS people are "lazy and need to go get jobs" I have worked my ass off to support my daughter and as a teen mom myself, I have NEVER asked for a handout or expected one. I worked and lived in my car through high school. All I am asking is for equaility, I want my daughter to grow up and have an opportunity to better her life but the way things are going she probably will have it worse than I did. So please if you think America is wonderful as is, you are welcome to go home and get off the page.
In my opinion, the heart of the issue is campaign finance reform. We need to have all political campaigns funded by the taxpayers from a separate fund. An amount would be designated say: 50 million dollars or 25 or whatever is a reasonable amount to actually travel and give speeches, and provide security for the candidates etc. And that NO OTHER MONEY be used, and that any contribution from ANY private donor big or small be made unlawful. THEN we can begin to recenter American Democracy around the electoral process and the actual WILL of the people. Right now, politicians tell their "constituents" what they want to hear and make all of the promises they need to make, and then, newly elected (or re-elected) arrive in Washington and are immediately cornered and overwhelmed by all of the special interests that actually funded their campaign, and these politicians no longer connect "doing the will of the people" with "being a successful politician." THAT is the straw that is stirring this corrupt drink right now. Our leaders no longer need to act in the interests of the people they serve. Moreover, it is actually political suicide for them to do so. THAT, I feel, is a good "starting point" for one of this beautiful and exhilarating movement's central demands. REFORM CAMPAIGN FINANCE now...
spread it...Don't get down on it...just get smarter about it
time for a wiki. obvious troll is obvious.
I'm not a troll or whatever it is, and I can tell you being from Santa Barbara myself that the winter in NY is a helluva lot colder than in Santa Barbara. furthrmore I was suggesting not to end OWS just to make it less about a hunger strike or rather (I'm giving up a roof over my head strike). I have a very dear friend that has been taxed both mentally and physically during the Occupation, so please do not tell me to "fuck off". the problem is that logistics such as the weather on not on the side of the occupation, if mother nature agrees with OWS the it will be a mild winter and OWS can stay put, but who can predict the weather? As the Bible sez (no thumping btw) "the mind is willing but the flesh is weak".
Who said anyone was talking about you?
One Question: Have You actally BEEN to Zucotti park in New York?
i have lived at 12,000 feet, where there is 10 feet of snow. It is possible and it can be done. You telling them to walk away from it is completely out of touch with how important it is. Your not putting forth a meaningful alternative. you know i am fernoyyed with their lack of organization and lack of process and wish they had done their homework and think merely protesting is infantile temper tantrum. but i don't dog them like that, i push them to bring it up to the adult level and take it up a notch. And thats what you should be doing 2.
This is an evolutionary event with consequences for human survivial. we can not continue to run a corporate oligarchy that will kill the planet and everyone on it. We are fighting for the continued existenve of the human species. and UNTIL YOU WAKE UP; WE WILL FIGHT FOR YOU.
Justice has no home.
What is OWS doing about getting political representation inside DC? That is where the war needs to be faught!
If you think this is literally only about a small group of people engaged in a 19th century "holding" tactic, you completely miss the point of this movement. This is not about a physical occupation--although that's the most tangible element at this point--this is about the need to change the priorities of the country--and other countries. Did you not see the millions who joined on October 15? They went home, yes, but the point isn't that they have now "forgotten." They have not. They have this movement in their hearts. Unlike any other "American" movement, this one was inspired by an international movement: the Arab Spring. #OWS is, ultimately, not about "borders" or "physical spaces."
While the brave souls of #OWS in Manhattan represent the vanguard, they are just the tip of the iceberg, the leading spear. In the main, you can't see the many supporters out there, but they are there. The majority are largely invisible at the moment; virtual supporters, who work full time, have families, hold brief "occupations," and do what they can support those occupations that are more permanent--such as the one in Zuccotti Park. They are former democrats and current democrats. They are former republicans and current republicans. They are Ron Paulian and Tea Partyin'. Some will fall by the wayside over time, but many will cast off their affiliations with "institutionalized organizations" to join #OWS. And they are doing so now.
I am one of them. I work from home and am "fighting the war" digitally. And I for one will not stop. Posts like this only steel my resolve to do more.
Thanks for that impetus.
Peace.
Groobiecat
BTW1: This is what horizontal Democracy looks like: http://groobiecat.blogspot.com/2011/10/how-ows-functions-horizontal-direct.html
BTW2: Student loans have now surpassed $1 trillion--far more than all the credit card debit in the country. Also driven in large measure by Wall Street as well: http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2011/10/19/am-midday-extra-todd-gitlin-on-the-occupy-wall-street-protests/
The purpose of the physical protesters is to garner media coverage. This gives a "recognition" to America of the movement's existance. The next step is to organize and present a "voice" that speaks for the majority of people sympathetic to the cause and ideals. This voice addresses the media and the supporters of the movement via the media and websites. The real power of the movement is not contained in the presence of protesters on Wallstreet, rather, it is in millions of American homes and within the minds and sentiments of the (99%). Communication and unification of thought, direction, and action is necessary to effectively utilize the power of the people. Our next step, folks, is to voice our intentions and goals to those who are not sleeping in the park, but remain supportive of our cause.
Want to amke a change how about these suggustions 1 Put a limit of congressional terms 8 yrs max like the President 2 Bills that go thru congress must do so on there merrit without earmarks which allows pork barrel spending 3 Remove lobbist from capital hill so congress can do it's job 4 Start a Public fund for canidates seeking election to High office no more external funding (this will stop deals being made on money and favors ) it will also tell if the canidate can handle his money if he can't handle his own how can he handle tax payers money )
stick these demands out there if nothing else just as a base line for the movement
Want to amke a change how about these suggustions 1 Put a limit of congressional terms 8 yrs max like the President 2 Bills that go thru congress must do so on there merrit without earmarks which allows pork barrel spending 3 Remove lobbist from capital hill so congress can do it's job 4 Start a Public fund for canidates seeking election to High office no more external funding (this will stop deals being made on money and favors ) it will also tell if the canidate can handle his money if he can't handle his own how can he handle tax payers money )
stick these demands out there if nothing else just as a base line for the movement
If you don't support the movement, why are you here? This is for supporters of the movement.
Moneyman is a troll.
The name of the poster who put out this thread, "moneyman" sound like a Wallstreeter to me.
His message is what all wallstreet wants.
Don't quit. You thought it would be easy? Nothing is easy and certainly not change. This is what is expected and wanted by Wallstreet and this poster's thread is playing in their hands. It will work. It is worldwide. All can see.
MLK should have stayed home, ate pie, drank coffee, watched tv. Darn him.
"The search for eutopia is a futile one." really why? seems like the type of goal to keep right in the front of mind.
I don't think anyone ever said the movement WAS the park,. if OWS moved or divided or decentralised,. it would still grow. it is the general feeling of the people currently that the system is just done and something new is needed,. that will not stop until.
peoples suggestions give you an incite to their understanding,. an therefore a way to help them.
TROLL ALERT!!
This is like the 10th thread in the last couple of hours telling us to go home, calling us the Fleabag Party, etc. These posters are masqueradign as OWS supporters. They are not, They are republican trolls that are doing a coordinated psyop to destroy our moral. Don't believe them.
IGNORE THIS GUY!!!
You should read Tolstoys War and Peace or some history book ... Moscow .. Napoleon conquered Moscow not St. Petersburg . And he lost Moscow not because of the cold winter but the zarist Russians burned it down with all food stocks and made it inhabitable so the Grand Army had to retreat in the middle of the winter through by war savaged land !
oh god a pedantic person! . sorry I have not read thebook in like ten friggin years so forgive me! I've had a business to run. That being said my point was that the winter will come in New York and OWS better think about alternative methods of protesting other than this quasi hunger strike other wise OWS will meet it's Waterloo. Napoleon was in that wasn't he?
then use an analogy you know and do not pretend to know something you obviously do nothing about.
And the defeat of the Grand Army in 1812 in the russian winter and what might happen at a much smaller scale and hopefully with much less suffering to the people at Zuccotti park in the New York winter is a good comparison ... really ... but you have to tell the tale right.
Otherwise it wont work!
And google or Wiki is really helpful to refresh once aging memory ;-)
One person or even a few that think that all debt or student should be forgiven does not represent the movement, just someones personal views.
You second argument is that people should not have enough money to donate a few dollars to this movement? That is a really dumb argument.
The problems are getting worse for the bottom 99% while it is getting much better for the 1%. http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph#dsq-new-post
The reason for holding the park was i believe something to do with "Squatter Laws". Otherwise the rest of the nonsense you are talking is completely off base.
People from all over the country scrape together $300K and it's bad. But the 1% pumps millions into the Tea Party and it's patriotic?
I don't think the reference to the 300K was sayig it was bad, it was saying that people still have enough to be generous so things can't be all that bad around the country. and your 1% pumping funds etc. is ludicrous. This vilifying the 1 percent has got to stop, some of the one percent suck balls I'll admit that, but some of them Warrent Buffet, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs had made great contributions, for heavens sake our museums collections are donated by those 1 percent, the guggenheim, the moma etc.
I agree with your clarification of the student loan thing. I said that people have extra money obviously other wise OWS would basically have received only from the much vilified 1 percent. Regarding the problem of the ninety nine percent, that is a sweeping statemnt that is not founded in fact over the long run, some are doing better some worse, the number are ALWAYS worse during a recession and they abate during a "boom", I mean really ask yourself, would OWS have a voice if this were the Mid 80's or 90's when the US experienced unprecedented expansion. Last, since you are from Alameda California, you do not know squat about what is happening in New York, I live here and I can tell you that the major concern was that to lose the park was to lose the OWS cause. I am not advocating the end of OWS just the physical quasi hunger strike aspect of it.
The reason for "holding the park" was because the OWS people felt that losing the park would cause the movement to crumble. I know of what I speak. My argument is that a modern "war" is not about holding land or a park in this case but about holding the "hearts and minds" of otherwise indifferent people and I am sorry to say it but when it starts to freeze in New York the indifferent masses will be more concerned with christmas shopping and rushing home with their treasures and will BYPASS the hypothermia cases in Zucotti Park.
No none of us are going home. Go fuck yourself.
ya will when it gets to 20 below in NYC. since you are in Houston TX you obviously do not know what it's like during the winter in New York. furthrmore I was suggesting not to end OWS just to make it less about a hunger strike or rather (I'm giving up a roof over my head strike). I have a very dear friend that has been taxed both mentally and physically during the Occupation, so please do not tell me to "fuck off". the problem is that logistics such as the weather on not on the side of the occupation, if mother nature agrees with OWS the it will be a mild winter and OWS can stay put, but who can predict the weather? As the Bible sez (no thumping btw) "the mind is willing but the flesh is weak".
Don't fall for this psychological crap from any one percent goon. It's an obvious attempt to discredit our cause and break our will. Don't fall for it. Just follow the law and keep protesting no matter what the one percent goons say or do. Our message is vital. Below is my two cents:
We have been mislead by Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, Bush Jr, Obama, and nearly every other public figure. Economic growth, job creation, and actual prosperity are not necessarily a package deal. In fact, the first two are horribly misunderstood. Economic growth/loss (GDP) is little more than a measure of wealth changing hands. A transfer of currency from one party to another. The rate at which it is traded. This was up until mid ’07′ however, has never been a measure of actual prosperity. Neither has job creation. The phrase itself has been thrown around so often, and in such a generic politicali manner, that it has come to mean nothing. Of course, we need to have certain things done for the benefit of society as a whole. We need farmers, builders, manufacturers, transporters, teachers, cops, firefighters, soldiers, mechanics, sanitationi workers, doctors, managers, and visionaries. Their work is vital. I’ll even go out on a limb and say that we need politicians, attorneys, bankers, investors, and entertainers. In order to keep them productive, we must provide reasonable incentives. We need to compensate each by a fair measure for their actual contributions to society. We need to provide a reasonable scale of income opportunity for every independent adult, every provider, and share responsibility for those who have a legitimate need for aid. In order to achieve and sustain this, we must also address the cost of living and the distribution of wealth. Here, we have failed miserably. The majority have already lost their home equity, their financial security, and their relative buying power. The middle class have actually lost much of their ability to make ends meet, re-pay loans, pay taxes, and support their own economy. The lower class have gone nearly bankrupt. In all, its a multi-trillion dollar loss taken over about 30 years. Millions are under the impression that we need to create more jobs simply to provide more opportunity. as if that would solve the problem. It won’t. Not by a longshot. Jobs don’t necessarily create wealth. In fact, they almost never do. For the mostpart, they only transfer wealth from one party to another. A gain here. A loss there. Appreciation in one community. Depreciation in another. In order to create net wealth, you must harvest a new resource or make more efficient use of one. Either way you must have a reliable and ethical system in place to distribute that newly created wealth in order to benefit society as a whole and prevent a lagging downside. The ‘free market’ just doesn’t cut it. Its a farce. Many of the jobs created are nothing but filler. The promises empty. Sure, unemployment reached an all-time low under Bush. GDP reached an all-time high. But those are both shallow and misleading indicators. In order to gauge actual prosperity, you must consider the economy in human terms. As of ’08′ the average American was working more hours than the previous generation with far less equity to show for it. Consumer debt, forclosure, and bankruptcy were also at all-time highs. As of ’08′, every major American city was riddled with depressed communities, neglected neighborhoods, failing infrastructures, lost revenue, and gang activity. All of this has coincided with massive economic growth and job creation. Meanwhile, the rich have been getting richer and richer and richer even after taxes. Our nation’s wealth has been concentrated. Again, this represents a multi-trillion dollar loss taken by the majority. Its an absolute deal breaker. Bottom line: With or without economic growth or job creation, you must have a system in place to prevent too much wealth from being concentrated at the top. Unfortunately, we don’t. Our economy has become nothing but a giant game of Monopoly. The richest one percent already own nearly 1/2 of all United States wealth. More than double their share before Reagan took office. Still, they want more. They absolutely will not stop. Now, our society as a whole is in serious jeapordy. Greed kills.
Oh please who are you Joseph Goebells ready to hunker down in the bunker? I was indicating that the literal "occupation" should start thinking about strategies that will continue the movement without it being about a bunch of people freezing their asses of in zucotti park.
I'd completely agree! But you have to understand, trolling is a complicated art these days, so people get knee jerk reactions to condescending posts like these. Glad you clarified though.
Move the occupation down to Fort Lauderdale for the winter.
"you can't change the rules in the middle of the game", You sure as hell can if your Goldman Sachs , Bof A or AIG ! The rules only seem to apply to the rest of us ( the 99%) , not the 1%.
Please see this post if you are confused:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/explaining-the-movement-to-others/
That and there's the "31 percent of OWS protesters would support violence" poll in the Wall Street Journal that's so devestating that the "operators" of this website unlisted my thread about it.
Oh yes, the Wall Street Journal. Let's all get our info from that objective and uninterested source.
The pollster was a Dem.
[Removed]
Wow there goes the first amendment. people disagree with you silence them! you are a great representative for OWS. NOT!