Forum Post: Thomas Jefferson is celebrating somewhere tonight!
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 14, 2011, 11:32 p.m. EST by GypsyKing
(8708)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Nothing could be more patriotic that what has happened here on Wall St., so why not announce that fact by using the original, colonial flag of Thomas Jefferson and our countries founders as a symbol of this movement. Thomas Jefferson is celebrating with us somewhere tonight! We're the real patriots!
In the afterlife, may Hamilton be made to publicly kiss Jefferson's ass.
One of my favorite Jefferson quotes:
“Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear”
~Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson writing on the Louisiana Purchase and the matter of secession, 1803:
"...Besides, if it should become the great interest of those nations to separate from this, if their happiness should depend on it so strongly as to induce them to go through that convulsion, why should the Atlantic States dread it? But especially why should we, their present inhabitants, take side in such a question?...The future inhabitants of the Atlantic & Missipi [sic] States will be our sons. We leave them in distinct but bordering establishments. We think we see their happiness in their union, & we wish it. Events may prove it otherwise; and if they see their interest in separation, why should we take side with our Atlantic rather than our Missipi descendants? It is the elder and the younger son differing. God bless them both, & keep them in union, if it be for their good, but separate them, if it be better."
On the same subject, 1804:
"Whether we remain in one confederacy, or form into Atlantic and Mississippi confederacies, I believe not very important to the happiness of either part. Those of the western confederacy will be as much our children & descendants as those of the eastern, and I feel myself as much identified with that country, in future time, as with this; and did I now foresee a separation at some future day, yet I should feel the duty & the desire to promote the western interests as zealously as the eastern, doing all the good for both portions of our future family which should fall within my power."
Now, think on THAT when you hear the statists on MSNBC ridiculing anyone or any group who speaks of secession (even calling them unAmerican) - the most basic of human right of self determination, fully recognized by Jefferson and our amazing founders!
Actually, TJ loved his wine and beer. He had some big parties with his invited guests there at Monticello, his retirement home. I've been to the old place a few times. He was an Architect and building on it constantly. We were lucky to have had Jefferson. A point always emphasized during the house tours, "Knowledge is Power" The man loved to read.
If there ever was a figure that representled the ideals of liberty, justice, and reason; the true American values better that Thomas Jefferson, I'd like to know who they were. Furthermore, I believe he is a figure that a majority of Americans could unite behind. The problem isn't "the system;" the problem is the system's been corrupted to a degree that it doesn't even resemble Jeffersonian values anymore. If, for example, we can build computers that keep track of the sums in millions of checking accounts, why the heck can't we build one that can accurately count votes, and make voting effortless. Answer: they don't want to count peoples votes. You call that democracy? I honestly believe the solution lies in our history and traditions as much as innovation and the future.
Let's examine Thomas Jefferson...
Founding Father (Creepy eh!?), Owned slaves. Had Sexual Recreation with one or more of those slaves.
Freed several slaves. Worked his way out of potential bankruptcy after Declaration of Independence.
Seems to have been an Engineer with a personal touch and deep devotion to the DREAM.
Good outweighs the BAD? Eh?
WWTJD? Why...support the occupy movement around the world...OF CoURSE? RIGHT?
Jeffersonian Democracy, in substance, is still radical . . . it addresses the aims of this movement absolutely, and anyone who questions it's patriotism has got one hell of a lot of gall!
I think TJ does have something to SAY:
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
Thomas Jefferson
Don't quote this it is not TJ. Evidenced by the use of the term inflation which is a modem term. He would not have disagreed with the statement but it's not his.
Teamok -
It has been attributed to him:
http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/private-banks-quotation
But, your right, this one contains the term inflation which was first used in 1838, by D.D. Bernard, twelve years after TJ died.
Good catch my friend! : )
Jefferson already did a lot of the thinking for us regarding what we are fighting against. Take back the flag!
If you are going to bring up Jefferson, I suggest you read him :-)
Jefferson did not approve of fiat money (that stuff the Fed cranks out). He warned that if America grew cities like those in Europe, we would become corrupt. He thought that Americans should engage in agriculture, to be self sustaining and in touch with nature. He believed we should all be armed to resist tyranny should government get out of line. He supported the right of the states to secede. He warned that if we allowed banks and corporations to take hold, we would lose the country our forefathers fought to give us.
He was a genius, a spiritual man, and an amazing soul.
Hear hear. And obviously, sadly, we missed his standards by a longshot. :(
I know. It's a travesty. It's easy to see why the people in power don't want this stuff taught in our schools.
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have-Thomas Jefferson
It's more important to control your government then to downsize it. If it isn't your government it doesn't matter how big it is - it's just a problem. No govenment at all is anarchy. What is left then, but to take back your government?
"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them..... It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government" Jefferson.
Yes, this is a man whose flag I will stand by!
Amen, I always hated that the "don't tread on me" flag got co-opted by the TEA party. Ruined a perfectly good symbol for me.
The people who sold out American values have been the very people wrapping themselves around the American Flag for too long now. We need to take it back!
You could easily be describing our Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson included.
Jefferson wasn't good enough for you, huh? I'd like to know than who was.
Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Man, you're a pretty selective guy. What do you want the Walden Pond Party? Most people woundn't even know what you're talking about.
That sounds like a fun party.
Emerson and Thoreau were our truest Americans.
I bet Thoreau and Jefferson would have a lot of common ground. Thoreau would probably agree that men are not ready for self-governance, and Jefferson would take over from there.
I haven't read Emerson yet, though. Is there a particular book I should read if I could only read one?
They both admired Jefferson, but, in spite of their greatness (I agree with you about both of them by the way) they were not of his political stature, and they didn't create the standard that has been a symbol of liberty for 235 years. Let's take back the flag.
That’s the main man http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_jefferson.html
"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." - TJ
Thank You, Stray!
You know that Jefferson's idea of revolution was to make government smaller, correct? He was for a small central government with states rights. I don't think he would be too thrilled with the current OWS movement. The simple reason behind this is the fact that in order for OWS protesters to get what they want, our government needs to be larger. Not exactly what Jefferson had in mind.
I agree. Liberty and big government do not go hand in hand. People need to decide if they want to be babysat and pilfer their neighbors, of if they want to be free to forge their own path. Can't have both.
What I find to be hugely laughable, aside from the general misconception that "government has my best interest in mind" is from Plato's "Republic" where Socrates talks about why there will never be good people in government. What do you get from working in government? money and power. What kind of person wants money and power? Not the kind of person you'd want to give either to. Same could be said for huge company CEOs. They want money and power. These people who everyone is complaining about are the EXACT SAME people who are running the government, but everyone seems ok with them. Strange logical disconnect.
What is this fixation you guys have with Big and Little? Is this Freudian?
What other words would suggest? It's pretty obvious. Big government equals more regulations and more burden on the taxpayers. Small government gives more rights to the states....and hold on....wait for it.....THE PEOPLE. It's crazy how that works isn't it? If you really are all about Jefferson, read up on him some. He hated BIG government. I think he would advise the OWS movement to direct their protesting at our federal government and the federal reserve, not those who create job and wealth in America.
[Deleted]
Or maybe you should expand the range of your thought since you obviously know nothing about Thomas Jefferson, his ideology, or the reasoning behind wanting a smaller government. Do some research bud and maybe you won't look like an idiot next time you make a post.
But he was also writing in a different social environment. Trans-National Corporations didn't exist in his days. The largest thing to fear at all was the government, as nothing could get bigger.
Currently, corporations, as we're seeing, can get bigger than governments. So Jefferson would probably say the way to go is to reduce the size of both governments and corporations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Company
And, there were money changers and banks. Jefferson and the other founders were well aware of their evils.
Yes, you raise a good point.
But our corporations are currently more powerful and influential.
Most corporations would prefer smaller government. A larger government creates more strain on corporations and small businesses. Why do you think companies like General Electric moved overseas? Corporations fear our government. There is no certainty in America for big business or small business at the moment. Want to know why that is? The simple fact that we have a growing federal government! Government intervention in the market place kills jobs and kills opportunity. So keep on with your movement. Help the government grow, since that is what the people want. Help create more fear in America. I can assure you, that is what you are doing. This is not what Thomas Jefferson, or any of our founding fathers would have wanted.
I can't speak for everyone in this movement, but I personally want smaller government.
Though, I do also think you misunderstand how this economy works.
That's great, but this movement does not promote small government. Maybe that was it's original intent, but it's headed down a different path now. Create your own movement and see how many follow. I bet more stick with the Marxist ideologies that the current movement seems to be promoting more and more. People want handouts. They want the government to give them free education, free healthcare, and free housing. No one wants to take responsibility for themselves anymore. At least it seems that my generation feels this way.
I agree with you, I think there's a feeling of entitlement among members of our generation.
However, I don't think the OWS movement wants simply free education, healthcare, and housing. Rather, they want fairly priced education, healthcare, and housing.
Housing is a good example: the price of housing has increased while the average income of Americans has remained stable. Why?
It's the same with healthcare and education. Costs go up, but income stays the same.
It's not really just a feeling of entitlement, we are entitled to the benefit of any social program we pay into. If you pay for health insurance you are entitled to it's benefit, and yes you expect it. And regulations are a balancing act, we don't want to over-regulate but not under-regulate either. We all want clean water. Corporations will pollute this water to make a buck, so we have regulate them so they don't.
I believe that government regulation is one of the reason privatized healthcare is so expensive. Government regulation drives the cost up on a lot of things. It's unfortunate that it has to be this way. As far as education goes, it's all in where you choose to go. I went to a community college my first 2 years and got the same education and took the same classes I would have at a larger state university. It was much cheaper. After 2 years, I moved to a 4 year state university. Tuition is still tolerable per semester. I chose to stay in state for my education simply because it was the reasonable thing to do. Why can't others do this? Why do people have to go out of state for college and go to elite schools, racking up massive student loans? Part of taking responsibility is making good judgement. That way when you go to school, you can get a good education that you can afford. Seems simple to me. If you can't afford an education, work for a few years and save some money to go to school. I think too many people are extremely immature coming out of high school and don't know how to make good judgement.
On kids coming out of high school not knowing how to make a good judgement, I agree. They don't know how to make a good judgement. Additionally, don't their parents encourage them to go to the best schools? Their teachers? Their guidance counselors? Our media system convinces us to believe Harvard and Yale are the best places to be, and the student must aspire to get there.
I personally went to a state school. UMass Boston. And I can certainly tell you whenever I was in a group of students from Harvard, Tufts, or Boston University, the look I would get when I said, "I go to UMass," was just a look of pity. It's a strange culture we live in, but Harvard students really are treated like the cream of the crop, when really they're just Campbell's creamy chicken soup.
The other point where we'll agree is that we need to move our society in the opposite direction, and instead of encouraging everyone to go to college, we should be creating advanced jobs--perhaps manufacturing jobs-- that don't require college degrees.
Healthcare is expensive for a variety of reasons, but if you look at the statistics, the price of housing and healthcare have skyrocketed in the past ten years ever since regulation has been relaxed.
Bro, for real. If there was no such thing as health insurance, getting health care would cost everyone a pittance. Technology has made things so affordable. Paying billions of dollars to people who sit in a building all day telling you what kind of care you can get has made things unaffordable. Get rid of the middle man, and the control, and costs would plummet. Wonder why nobody suggests this?
TJ would kick you in the nuts. He predicted when the government gets to big and you keep taking from one man to give to another the end would be near. Don't insult any of our founders you fuck face ass wipe!
I doubt it, TJ was kind of effeminate and soft spoken. Tom Pain would have most certainly kicked Glenn Beck in the balls though. As a radical liberal he liked to mix it up. Washington would have never given you the time of day and Adams would have condemned you as a vulgar low class pig.
Don't pretend you know squat about our founding fathers.
Everything you just cited as Jefferson is a reason to protest big business in government and stealing from the middle and working classes. You don't even know your own values let alone the founders.
The original T-Paine.
Got your tities out, huh? Read about TJ before posting here again dip shit. He was anti government, not free enterprise. He is the father of capitalism!
Read about him? I just published in a book about him. I've read most of his papers and written on him for years. Ha ha - you tool.
The thing about quoting Jefferson is that you will never win because he changed his mind all the time and liked to take different points of view in order to understand them. He was open minded and not terribly concerned by the process of open and democratic debate. He relished it. A "free market of ideas." Clearly you don't support debate, it makes you angry and want to say dirty things. So Thomas Jefferson can not be your hero. I see you more of a King George supporter as you hate debate and are loyal to outdated ideas even when the evidence which contradicts your world view is right in front of your face.
Adam Smith was the father of capitalism.
Jefferson believed that for a republic to work its citizens needed to be relatively equal as far as income. That is why he supported yeomen farmers and mechanics (that means professional trade person for those who need help with big words) and worked to keep legislation favoring big business out of government. You can call me all the names you want but the truth isn't hard to find if you read...
Wow Shazam, I'm impressed!
Wrong again dumbass. If anyone buys your book you owe them their money back.
Adam Smith is who you may have mixed up with TJ He wrote about the free market but you sound like a idiot "father of capitalism" Capitalism is not an American concept and was around long before TJ
"the selfish spirit of commerce (that) knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain.
“I hope we shall crush… in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country."
Or try, for a more in-depth analysis: http://soundingcircle.com/newslog2.php/__show_article/_a000195-000205.htm
He was also anti-centralized banks and too-big-to-fail businesses. Seriously. Read up on it. Though all founding fathers were against big government (due to their run in with the king)
Yep, agree. Troll alert everyone.
Banks yes but not business. Smartest American ever. Don't twist his ideals to fit your fucked up hippie agenda. I'll leave your guy Marx alone. You leave TJ alone.
Marx was German and Marxism is a failure. TJ is MY man. You didn't pay attention in school did you? Here you are, worshiping the wrong hero. You must feel pretty dumb right now.
Sick to think I'm the 1%, huh.
A Slave owner is now the smartest guy ever?
Yes
I see you now. Are you paid to be a dick?
Why are you so afraid of admitting that some very powerful businessess have done some very wrong things? We don't want to end capitalism, we want to increase democracy. SOME (not all) corporations and banks are buying votes and cutting us out of our own government. They make a profit on you staying alive (literally: Health insurance, life insurance makes a profit if you live. wtf?) They pollute the earth and outsource jobs so we have no jobs in the USA. They then treat those outsourced workers like shit! And they keep all the money they saved without giving it back to the production cost. Then they use lawyers to get out of paying taxes while we pay for their bailouts and wars.
I love capitalism. Doesn't mean I will let some (emphasis on some) committ these terrible acts.
Another way to think of it is this:
We all love our military, they are brave and protect us. But if their commander in cheif ordered them to attack American civillians, would we just let it happen? NO! We would peacefully demand justice!
Business didn't do anything. That's a scapegoat. Politicians are bad to accept what the businesses give them. Obama has a 1 Billion dollar war chest to get re-elected raised from corporate America.
What a minute. You think it is wrong for politicians to accept money from businesses (it is) yet it is okay that after the politicians do so, that the businesses tell them how they want them to vote on certain issues?
that is hilarious.
He did fight to strip corporations and banks of the rights of a natural citizen and was horrified when they got them through a dirty sepreme court ruling $%&^!
Wrong! Read the ruling again. If you think TJ would side with the protestors, he'd smack your balls with one of his books.
You don't know any history do you? Just a foul mouthed blow hard. Wrong? Prove it or shut up.
Listen wanker, pull your head out of Michael Moores fat ass. Leave TJ out of your circle jerk.
Still nothing intelligent from you. Call a friend you need help.