Forum Post: There is No Hope for the USA it's Never Coming Back - Happy Days are Gone Forever
Posted 12 years ago on Feb. 26, 2012, 6:35 p.m. EST by owsleader2013
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This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Today the War with IRAN is because IRAN has announced they don't want EUROS or DOLLARS for their OIL, they want GOLD.
The USA has no gold, so they have to steal the IRAN oil.
End of story.
I think there is a hope for the US. If it can return to its original way of doing things, like the way Russia and China are doing things now, and work together on joint projects with these countries, than America could actually lead a world recovery
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Fantasy my son, fantasy.
In recorded history no failed empire in history has rebounded. Nada, nobody nothing.
The USA is going down, and the only people who survive will be those that bailed before the total civil war makes it impossible.
The first thing the US government will do pre-crisis is declare a 'bank holiday' which will shutdown all ATM's and all flights and gas purchases, thus making everyone a prisoner of their location at the time.
China is on an ascendency, Russia of course is effectively a new country post 1988, but its only the USA like the UK that are on a downward death spiral with the status-quo trying to hold empire with dear life. Nada in history has such a failed empire bounced back. Nada.
Today's America is NOT unlike 1936 Nazi Germany, get out prior to 1938 or there is NO getting out, by 1938 ( 2013 ) most country's will not want 'poor' American gutter trash,
Like I have been saying the 'Rich' built there Chateau abroad back in the 1980's, the people that really matter have private planes and offshore Islands. It's only the little working people that don't have a clue of their future.
Your big 'IF' if the USA can return to what? Your forgetting that the aggregated DEBT of US government now stands at over $200 Trillion dollars, no country in the history of the earth has ever recovered from a debt to GDP ratio of such astronomic proportions. Once the worlds investors start dumping their USA assets it will NEVER come back. Never.
There is NO comparison for what the Russia was in the 1980's or what China is today, in the entire human history there has NEVER been a PONZI on the scale of the USA empire of today.
OK, I usually don't get involved in discussions like this, but kindly explain what good the OP does? How does it help? If we are f
ked, then we are fked. Do you enjoy saying all this shit? Even if it is 100% true, which I seriously doubt it is, of what value is this information? Do you think such negativism is somehow going to inspire people to rise up and make some type of change? It is a waste of time and hard drive space. It accomplishes nothing constructive. It is complete negativism and defeatism and reeks of great immaturity, regardless of the posters actual age.Perhaps it is a new school of philosophy -- F~~kedism. But it doesn't help the human mind to function properly, either individually or collectively. On the contrary, it has a deleterious effect.
That is because it is a troll post.
To belittle, put-down, demoralize, depress, divide, distract, etc. etc.
Well, depends on how you look at it. While the Roman Empire never rebounded, Italy was the flower of the Renaissance, and became the leading economic power once again (although it never regained its military power).
Anyway, I agree with the consensus, this post is total bullshit.
Modern Italy doesn't have a fucking thing to do with 500AD Rome,
Italy has had 1,000 regional governments since then, ... ever bothered to read Machiavelli? At one time Italy had a separate 'government' in every city, ....
The collapse of mercantile economy's is always the same, they dilute their currency to the point that farmers quit sending food.
What collapsed Rome in 500AD is the roman coin went from solid gold, to lead in just a few years, and once the money became worthless the farmers quit sending grain, at sometime in 500AD there was no bread to be had in Rome, and gradually everyone drifted away.
The USA is doing the same thing, since 1910 the US dollar has lost value 1000X, now the US dollar is reaching the point where those with commodity's are no longer willing to exchange their wealth for worthless-dollars.
I never quit trying to educate.
Today the War with IRAN is because IRAN has announced they don't want EUROS or DOLLARS for their OIL, they want GOLD.
The USA has no gold, so they have to steal the IRAN oil.
End of story.
Pseudo-babble. You never quit trying to educate eh? Super agent double-0-nothing, legend in his own mind :)
it looks very bleak for the good ole u.s. of a. but what about chinese history? they were once strong went through a period of decline and are now, it seems, rising back to the top.
Why not read a fucking book? Why not learn to speak Mandarin Chinese? Why not go live in China?
Rot in hell ( USA ) for what?
We're the best, ... we're ameriKKKan's, ...nobody believes that shit except idiots.
unfortunately a lot of people in the states and abroad do believe that crap. the american propaganda machine is truly the best in the world. it's going to be a long hard process to get people to wake up to what america has done and is actually doing in the world. WHEN people finally are aware of what's going on then they'll stop it.
I appreciate your posts owsleader2013. As crude as the language is in your posts, I've come to realize that even those who have supposedly "woken up", are still not able to accept the full depth of the insane and cruel practices and activities of the governments and ruling elites of our globe...and the US is right up there with the rest of them.
I believe at this point, your "crudeness" is what is necessary to slap people upside the head, to make them "snap out of it", as regular posts only go so far, and haven't jolted enough people as to how severe this situation is. So, while some may not appreciate your language, I do. Keep throwing that bucket of cold water on people's heads.
Must strongly disagree. If these forums were reaching millions of people, instead of just a tiny, tiny fraction of people interested in Occupy itself (and mostly just the few bloggers actively involved) then such a tactic as "hit the mule up side the head with a two by four" might be an effective way to get some of the sheeple's attention. But mostly, for the vast majority, it will be a complete turnoff and will actually destroy any credibility that the movement is tenuously trying to create.
It is always best to use erudite, well-reasoned, and intelligent language in trying to convey a message. Any other approach will be dismissed as idiotic babble and is a waste of time.
If you effect one in your lifetime then you won.
The 'real' 99% who cower at home in front of their TV are in real fear, the 1% who 'occupy' ... these are cowards, here on this forum mostly Republican flag waving parasites on the payroll, worried to death that the government will fail and their checks will quit coming. The USA now sends checks to 56% of the public, no wonder the majority here is 'status-quo'.
But the essential thing is the USA is the most rotten, evil, nation on earth.
Thanks, I try to be crude, because what the USA does to the world is 100000X uglier than what I write.
Your all going to hell, and if the world is lucky there will be a Nuremberg Trial for all Americans, before they get to escape this life.
*
The conservatives here are assholes, but the liberals here are far worse because the blood on their hands they don't even see. The Pug's here love to see arab/persian infants die and will tell you so, but the liberal's here will argue it doesn't even happen. They'll argue that the OREO-OBAMA is not capable of pain, that drones don't exist,
What's worse is the liberals here go nut's when anybody goes OFF TOPIC, we're only supposed to talk about HOPE&CHANGE,
IT's like the entire OWS script is re-elect OBAMA 2012
The world is cooked, too many losers having too many losers.
Nice job of fear mongering. It's me, HandleGirl, because I have a thousand handles (ya). You might want to check this book out. It's called "The World America Made" by Robert Kagan. Enough said.
I completely concur we need to ditch OBAMA ASAP, and get NADER to run the 'FREEDOM' ticket for 2012.
NADER 2012, ... OWS 99% Supports Nader
I'd say Germany has rebounded a couple times in fairly short history. China is rebounding now. Many nations throughout history went through a "dark ages" and recovered.
The collapse of mercantile economy's is always the same, they dilute their currency to the point that farmers quit sending food.
Read Sprengler's 1920 german classic "decline of the west" and then come back to this debate. It's a two volume set, read all and return.
If your talking about a 100 year ... rebound, ... but hardly a rebound.
Great city's throughout history, as a rule of thumb never come back. Sure they stick around, ... but they never come back to their former grandeur.
Just like Spain, in its day when the GOLD was flowing, ... it ruled the world, but that didn't last and what followed was poverty for years.
The USA had its day post WWII because everybody else had destroyed their infrastructure the USA enjoyed high employment,
Today the USA is broken and Detroit is building cars in china to sell to chinese. It ain't coming back as it once was,
It will take 10-20 years or more to clear the debt, the average american is DEBT over $1,000,000 ( Million Dollars ) because of the collective obligation of the US government ( over $200 trillion dollars of debt outstanding ), in all of human history, no nation on earth has ever recovered from this scale of debt.
K, so the nations I mentioned didn't recover?
Yes our current economy is the grandest Ponzi scheme ever. I agree to that. The rest of your post in nonsense.
Once you destroy the trust of the creditors abroad your FUCKED forever.
"NO mercantile civilization on earth ever came back like it was post boom, once they diluted their currency to zero"
I sort of see your argument about Germany, but you could say the same of any POST-WAR collapse.
BUT I'm NOT talking about WAR, ... see your NOT reading, I'll try this one more time,
NO Country on earth has EVER came back that diluted their money to shit.
Your nations mentioned, were great war's and they came back, ... like the USA civil war,
But once a civilization destroys its currency, it never comes back.
Weimar Republic engineered hyper-inflation, ... they didn't destroy their currency. The government simply dropped the zeros, and declared a bank-holiday. Problem solved.
The problem here is definition, but that's your game to focus on wars,
The problem is that when a country dilutes its money to zero, and nobody wants that money, then the food quits coming and the civilization, city, town become a ghost-town as people drift to new sources of food.
Yes the USA is the greatest PONZI in human history, and NO CIVILIZATION in history has ever recovered from an enormous PONZI.
Once you destroy the trust of the creditors abroad your FUCKED forever.
doom
Ok. So what's the answer? If there was one thing you think might work, what would it be?
I have said it before and I'll say it again, in all events in human history when a civilization economically collapses on the scale of the coming USA collapse the only survivors are those who bailed early.
In every instance in human history those that stay the long haul lose all their wealth by inflation and theft, and in general lose their lives. Those that leave early generally return at a later date much wealthier. This is just a fact of human history.
There are 100's of books written in the last 300 years on the history of collapsing mercantile economy's, if you don't know your history I'm glad to cite texts.
Could you site some texts? I also like to find new books to read.
Marc Faber "Tomorrows Gold" 1998
Sprengler, "Decline of the West" 1920's
"Rise and Fall of Roman Empire" 1800's
"Grand Popular Delusions and madness of the Crowds" McKay 1850's
Faber would be the best start as it's contemporary, but you have to buy/borrow the book and read it, ... there is NO way you can learn this shit from watching god damn fucking TV or god damn fucking youtube
Cool. I have the Gibbon's. Yep, I don't have a TV at all.
Yep, Gibbons is a classic, get the REAL, go find the original from the 1800's, did you know that post 1920's the catholic church forced that all copy's sold in the USA had the 'christian chapter' removed?? In his book the "fall of the roman" empire he has a whole chapter on the history of baby-jeebuz and the christian-church and all the fucking evil shit they did ... but it pissed so many people it was removed.
Same for Mark Twain, if you ever get a chance read "Letters from Earth", ... some real hilarious shit about 'christianity', but hard to find.
I never knew that. I'll check it out. Have you read Carroll Quigley's Tradegy & Hope? I haven't read it yet.
Yep, .. I bought every book Quigley ever wrote, he's the ONLY guy inside the CIA that ever made the whole thing public.
He was Bill Clintons private mentor from college and guided him to the power's to be president. Quigley died about 10 years ago.
I like 'history of civilization' starts in the caves (10,000BC) and goes to 1950.
Quigley wrote dozens of books, but he is/was the NUMBER educator in the USA for the CIA foreign office, you don't even get to work in a CIA safe-house unless you studied under Quigley.
Quigley wrote all these books so those who run the country would know how it really works, ... so for you young kids that want a head's up and don't want to be a fucking sheep your whole fucking life, read quigley when young and get with the program, ... it worked for Clinton.
Yeah, I knew he was Clinton's mentor. Do you mean The Evolution of Civilizations? I'll have to check it out.
Yeah that's the book excellent book about how from killing in the cave to dropping nukes on Japan the CIA transformed the USA into the greatest killer in the history of the world.
You have to understand this guy was the official educator and historian for the 'company'. This stuff isn't a joke, he was quite proud of our place in history and our ability to conquer the world.
Yes, I've heard of the term "Normalcy Bias" where people just don't get it and stay put because they think it can't possibly affect them.
Well, how much time do we have to get out of Dodge, before the nukes fly, do you suppose? Where do you think is the safest place to survive on this globe, until we can come back and rebuild this country?
If you read the books, you'll see that you need to leave about 2 years before the shit hits the fan.
It's already too late to be honest. Last summer they made offshore account illegal, last summer they banned trading gold. It's virtually impossible now to get money out of the country. The back log to denounce your citizenship is out 10 years, cuz so many people are in the queue.
We're about 1938 in the terms of Nazi Germany, but with the computers now and the "TOTAL INFORMATION AWARENESS", (TIA) that Poindexter put into place under the first BUSH, everything is now monitored.
Like I have been writing MOST rich got their assets out back in the 1980's,
If you have been following the DIMON heist ( OBAMA patron ) he stole $3B a few months ago and wired the money offshore in his first act, but for little people they can't move their money offshore and without the IRS grabbing the money, all kinds of new laws came into effect last year to prevent the flow of money from the USA.
If you don't have any money most country's don't want you, so its a difficult problem. If you got a skill you can always go live in Mexico and do odd jobs, .... or South America, but in Asia you got to have money to get past the short-term tourist visa.
Canada is harder than hell now, even a DUI and your banned from Canada.
Nope, getting the hell out of the USA with your life and money is something you should have done years ago.
Best place would be New Zealand or Australia, but both want to see $500K cash on hand, ... they're not looking for US parasites to suck their welfare system.
I NEVER said NUKES were coming that is BULLSHIT propaganda from assholes used to justify war with Iran.
What I see coming is a complete fucking civil war in the USA, where brother kills brother, ... just like the 1860's, and the safest place to be during a civil war, ... is far away.
Thanks so much for the detailed explanation owsleader2013. I appreciate it. You're a trove of inside information. Clearly you've lived one hell of a life so far.
I'm in southern Canada. Our freedoms and rights are going the way of the dodo bird as well, and quick too. Right now, northern Canada is looking pretty good.
I've seen you're posts. I hope you continue to share your inside information and insights with your fellow OWS posters. Be safe.
The Barackalypse is upon us!
Prior to the 1960s, their had never been a man who had walked on the moon. Some said "Ain't never gonna be no man that walks on the moon!"
Although this had indeed never happened before, it did eventually happen.
The ney sayers were mistaken. Let's hope that you are as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Labeling an argument a "straw man" is not much of an argument.
a strawman replaces the existing argument
with a parallel metaphor
and disproves the metaphor
as opposed to the actual argument
Do you think it is logical to say that because something has never happened it never will happen? Isn't that the logic behind his argument?
hope just makes we want to off myself these day
having money would make me happy
That's understandable, I think many share that feeling these days. Must say I feel like that myself sometimes.
However, our times are unique, we can't judge them by the past. Things exist today which never existed before, such as the internet. This allows information about our current predicament to get into the hands of an unprecedented number of people. Hopefully, those people will take part in doing something about it.
No one said that something that never happened will therefor never happen. That would obviously be wrong. However, your idea that because something never happen does not mean it will ever happen is lame because everything is possible. What we care about are probabilities, not possibilities. Your "argument" is a passe-partout that could be used to counter any argument ever given. That's why it is so weak and uninteresting.
What you think is "weak", "lame" or "uninteresting" is of no concern to me. The OP was quite definitive in his statements, he said:
"In recorded history no failed empire in history has rebounded. Nada, nobody nothing."
To point out that this is a logical fallacy is in fact quite a simple thing to do. But what's that to you? Oversimplification is your stock in trade. Its what you do all the time. So if you don't like what you see in the mirror, don't blame the mirror.
• Trashy: Society is collapsing. No collapsing society has ever saved itself before in history, there's nothing we can do about it!
• Arty: Ahem!
Your attacking the OP's position, not my arguments against your position.
You never understood my position in the first place.
My comment was about how you used a fallacy instead of an argument. It had nothing to do with your position. I agree with your position, but I don't agree with using logical fallacies to defend it.
You don't think we should identify breaches in logic in the midst of a debate? The point is you made no argument to rebut. We can't present a counter-argument when there is no argument in the first place, what we can do is identify the problem which is a logical fallacy in this case.
Another user could have made the same logical fallacy as you in the opposite direction. As in, prior to Franz Reichel's jump from the Eiffel tower his friends told him his parachute might not work. Although he hadn't tried it before, the naysayers were correct. He fell and died. There is thus a good chance the OP is correct.
My argument was that just because something has never happened up until the present, does not necessitate that it will never happen, and I gave a historical example to substantiate my point. I hope that my spelling it out for you helps.
It's not a good argument. Anything is always possible, it does not mean it's probable. It's uninteresting to attempt to comprehend the world in such a way. What you should have done is pose arguments directly related to the subject in an attempt to show why there is indeed hope that remains for US. What you did was just talk in the wind. It meant nothing. As I showed above, another user could simply have taken the opposite stance with an "argument" similar and just as weak as yours.
The argument you used is a passe-partout. You could use it against any argument anyone ever brings up. That's why it's weak. For example, if I said the republicans will save US, another user could present strong arguments as to why this will most likely not happen, then you could come in and use your "If it didn't happen before, it doesn't mean it could never happen!".
T, I'm starting to believe in the assessment made by one of our other forum members that suggested you have Aspergers or something similar because you're simply incapable of getting along with people. It may not be Aspergers but there's a definite problem.
I'm not here to get along with other people. I'm here to debate in clear fashion. I think it's important to indicate logical fallacies when we see them. It heightens the discourse. And, it's just plain fun.
These aren't formal debates. They're conversations.
And I believe what you find fun is pissing people off. You do realize that over the last three or four days you've accomplished nothing. I've watched entire threads where you go around in circles with GirlFriday. shooz, etc. ad nauseum. Accomplishing absolutely nothing. Which pretty much negates your assessment that you're here to actually do something. It would be just as easy for you to ignore them and stick to the issues but you don't. So I'm beginning to believe that you're really here to disrupt. I also believe you have a mental problem like Aspergers. But it could just be arrogance.
Tom Waits - Diamonds & Gold
Can't watch YouTube clip Matt. Some kind of registry error or resource conflict. Can't get sound to play.
that's been happening on my computer when it's been left on to long
Mine was okay until a couple nights ago when my graphics card burned out. I swapped cards and now I can't get sound to play.
Read the top forum comments. Three are mine. They are good comments about COOPS and anarcho-syndicalism. I did not cheat by twinkling myself. I am sharing good ideas and they are going to the top. This is accomplishing something.
Renneye's top comment is also related to what I've been talking about.
Having fun dishing logical fallacies and those who name call has given me the notoriety which guarantees that my good comments are read. When people come on this site and see that Thrasymaque wrote something, they go straight for the read.
The biggest crime is not being a "troll", it's being boring. I don't write boring stuff.
The original poster made quite a point of insisting that it never happened before, as if this in itself were particularly relevant. Your have a right to express your opinions about what is interesting or means nothing. But to me, that's they are, your opinions.
As far as I can see, you have no particular credibility for suggesting what I or anyone "should" do.
Indeed, it is only my opinion and I never said otherwise. What I did was provide a reason which backs up my opinion. That is the art of creating an argument.
You should have commented on that directly instead of using the angle of a straw man. In other words, you should have replied by identifying his logical fallacy instead of using one yourself.
I agree the original poster did not use strong arguments to make up his case, and indeed used many logical fallacies like the one you identified just now.
I can't say that your reasons are reasonable or that your argument is particularly artful. As I said before, you are just expressing opinions.
Considering the amount of time that you spend telling people what they "shalt" do, it appears that you are starting your own religion featuring yourself as the deity. And I thought you were an atheist.
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Happy days are gone until we get the dog chit out of office
What utter bullshit.
America is closer to Nazi Germany than you may think, to the extent that it is being used by global finance in endless aggressions around the world, which if not halted, will lead to its mutually assured destruction in a global nuclear war.
Ignoramus-the US economy collapses-Dominoe effect-who does china sell most of it's crap to? US deaults on it's debt to China-China is in the midst of a real estate bubble-double whammy-you don't see that the west's power elite have set up the entire world for a huge collapse. Then comes the NWO police state with the western elite ruling from south america while living on 10000acre estates-this whole banking scheme is just that-the next booming economy will be most of south america with the US Armed forces in conjunction with south american forces to protect it-the US economy will collapse but no worse than the 1930's
Congress is 100% incapable of dealing with this. They are simply not capable of getting anything done. Who is to blame is another conversation.
The fact remains: They are not serving the people.
At what point do we accept the fact that this is going to fall apart, and start figuring out how to get through it?
we have had the answer... soon after Occupy started... it's called direct democracy.... at the least it will force accountability upon our representatives... and at the most it will let the people rule...
I agree. Its getting it implemented thats the hard part. Nothing radical like that can get implemented without massive public support. And while that support can be forced to a certain extent, it usually has to come from the people's soul. They have to feel it. Im not sure they do.
No nation in the history of the earth whose currency has become worthless, and its worldwide creditors have lost faith has survived. Period. Nada, none.
I'm glad I belong to the NRA and own plenty of guns.
Most of the world will not allow you to bring those gun's to the new host country. I highly suggest you grow up, and let go of the teddy-bear.
Yes, if you decide to stay and fight the fellow cannibals in the USA your gun just might keep you alive long enough that blowing your own brains out looks like a Hawaiian vacation.
At the end of the day when the USA goes into total civil war gun ownership only means that suicide is quicker option. In no case should rational person ever want to live in a situation where walking to the outhouse or collecting water means certain death.
The easy way out is simple. Bail today, and bury your teddy-bear and in about 10+ years when normalcy returns to the USA return to your teddy-bear buried in 10+ PVC with your guns drenched in cosomoline. But remember no country on earth will accept you if your bring your fucking teddy-bear.
I'm a US special OP trained sniper, so don't pansy ass me me about guns.
Your entire tone of this post is enough to disqualify it altogether. Chill, then try to write it again to warrant some discussion of your opinions. Anyone can yell and scream that something is wrong, so provide a solution with your post besides running away. One other point that is lacking: there has never been a country like the USA, so why can't we fix things if we really have at it.
I concur the USA is worst than the NAZI empire, ... never in human history has their been a nation of such evil fucking killers at the US public.
Not an answer to my reply, try again. Or are you running away?
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I'm the Sergeant that trained pansy ass Special OP Snipers about guns. I'm probably the one that took your teddy bear away. I own more guns than you have touched.
If we got rid of the liberal economic and foriegn policies, we could easily recover.