Forum Post: The vast majority of the American public is not behind us...
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 11, 2011, 11:18 p.m. EST by dankpoet
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This content is user submitted and not an official statement
...yet. It is ill-advised to enter into an uphill fight in a flawed political system before that is so. It is equally unwise to be formulating demands. Each new demand is an opportunity for a potential ally to dismiss us as not representing their perceived interest. The only thing that the 99% will be able to unify behind during this period of distortion and misrepresentation is the belief that, in this country, people have the right to peacefully assemble and speak their minds. This act alone is intolerable to the 1% and their functionaries. It is more than enough to create the violent repression that will bring new individuals into the movement. Civil disobedience beyond this simple scope is premature. This is a long fight, breaking the law and inconveniencing the 99% will not create empathy. Disobedience should only be exercised to the extent necessary to defend our right to freedom of assembly. I demand only to exercise my right to peacefully assemble in a public and accessible location and to voice my dissent. Everything else is incidental.
if we are not the majority, then who is?
People with jobs
This movement will probably be a great ballancing act, i.e. 1) when to have spokesperon, when is it too soon, 2) when to set down demands, how many demand to make, how to priorities the demands (I use the word demands loosely), 3) who eventually gets to represent the group to the nation (Washington).
But I think there is a much bigger picture here. We are not only discussing the United State... but the world. We almost caused the world to crash (I realize the jury is still out on that), and the financial speculators are not meirly causing our gas prices to go up, but they are causing food prices to go up... and thus starving people.
Everyone, the 99%ers and the 1%ers have to be convinced that humanity is bigger than wealth.
Multiple minorities. As regards religion, no matter what you believe, most of the world thinks your wrong. I don't mean to imply that they won't ever be only that they currently aren't. You have to cut through the Fog before attempting to implement a series of demands.
Do you not see minorities around you? America is great because Americans enjoy more freedom. People are free to express their angry toward the reality. The spreading OWS proves we are the majority.
Sure I do. But No, it doesn't. It proves people everywhere are empathetic to our movement. That is not the same thing as being in the majority.
It's coming to a point where people regardless what side they are on are going to come to terms with their own financial situation and stop pretending that they either are or will be some day part of the 1%. I believe that is part of the problem. Many people in this country grew up believing that success equates to financial wealth and they too will be successful americans someday... oh Joe the Plumber, please stop and fight for your economic interest instead of against it. Maybe 35 years ago you had a better shot at it but NOW? no no the 1% are keeping it all to themselves for sure. All of this has to end. A great quote from the late George Carlin "there's a big club out there and YOU'RE NOT IN IT!!"
Agreed. Upward mobility is in the toilet. Not surprising considering the massive concentration of wealth, its subversion of the political system, and the incredulously anti-competitive means to which that subversion is put.
The movement is doing pretty well and growing. Your caution is misguided, and the organizers have already promulgated some democratic processes (although they're not terribly good at getting them on to the News tab).
http://groobiecat.blogspot.com/2011/10/breaking-plan-ows-democratic-process.html
"It is equally unwise to be formulating demands."
Really. So, grow the organization to do...what, exactly then? Hang out?
It is my personal belief that this movement should take form as an economic and social movement before a political one. Creating on organization based on democratic principles seems like a better use of energy than shouting at power.
I hear what you're saying, but the election of an executive committee and the declaration of demands is pretty concrete. It seems to me that both are organic and can co-exist pretty well. But again, I do see your point.
Peace.
Groobiecat
[ There's a blog here: www.groobiecat.blogspot.com ]
[ There's an #OWS election process here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/come-to-the-nyc-general-assembly-on-10-15-12-to-st/ ]
[ There's a draft Declaration here: https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/ ]
This is a FOX news poll------ 70% of Americans think the protest is just
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/10/07/do-occupy-wall-street-protests-represent-your-views-economy/
Many news networks are bias. Where are they conducting these polls?
Click on the link, I just checked it. it is no longer 70% It is really kind of phony because you can vote as often as you want. But I am sure it will be used as a true indicator by the ignorant.
It's like American Idol, the most voters determine the best talent (not)
Thanks for the link, but I don't put my faith in unscientific fox news polls. 70% of votes in this poll on the FN website think this protest represents legitimate concerns. Do we really want to use this as a proxy for all Americans?
I just thought this was interesting. I assumed (incorrectly) that every right winger and his cousin/brother would have voted differently
Maybe they did, but I voted twice ;)
That's all (-:
Interesting this is on top. I am watching the livestream now and Stephanie just said the Community Board for the Zucotti Park area is coming out in support of the protestors tomorrow morning.
That is absolutely awesome!
Yay, don't suppose we could get the Brookfield board out there.
The AFL CIO is also going to be there in support.
Thank you labor for this and for a weekend.
Actually, I saw a new poll that says 54% are supportive of OWS. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20120052-503544.html
Thanks I appreciate your link.
YW. I think it came out 6 hours ago
Impressive considering how desperately they've tried to heap disdain on OWS.
No matter how hard they try to convince them otherwise, people know when they are getting screwed.
Perhaps, you guys should fall back and regroup. Study Lau Tzu's "Art of War." Take a break, get organized, focused and appear somewhere again to make a bolder statement. You have made some strong points and gained media attention.
Perhaps.
there is also freedom of press
and perhaps a right to have a table to distribute that press
How can anyone say the vast majority is for or against the movement? The is no sound documentation to support either view. Suggest the leaders of the movement approach recognized non-biased poll or survey administrators conduct a survey asking for or against and out of 5 top demands, prioritzed them. Then you will have something concrete to build on.
U DONT represent us. Idiots. U demand $$, say they want people to die.SERIOUSLY. All the companies u protest employ thousand of Americans. USA's capitalist not socialist. Stop claiming to b the 99%. ur .01%. Ur a joke
It's kinda hard to get the majority behind you when there isn't one clear message. Most will think "Freeloader, Socialist" when they read the 19 demands on news websites.
Free National Healthcare? Free collage education? A gauranteed livable wage reguardless of income?
Every country that supplies those things are socialist nations. Now, I don't think it's that bad but it's simply not the American way.
Why are you in places like Boston and Cincinnati? You should gather all efforts to Washington D.C (government), Detriot (GM & Chrysler) and Sillicon Valley (Most tech companies are fuel by outsourcing and forgein investment).
Do you want this nation to reduce government and bring manufacturing (jobs) back, or do you want those fortunate 1% and government to pay your way? Until that becomes crystal clear via the protesters, this movement will have a hard time having any effect..
It's kinda hard to get the majority behind you when there isn't one clear message. Most will think "Freeloader, Socialist" when they read the 19 demands on news websites.
Free National Healthcare? Free collage education? A gauranteed livable wage reguardless of income?
Every country that supplies those things are socialist nations. Now, I don't think it's that bad but it's simply not the American way.
Why are you in places like Boston and Cincinnati? You should gather all efforts to Washington D.C (government), Detriot (GM & Chrysler) and Sillicon Valley (Most tech companies are fuel by outsourcing and forgein investment).
Do you want this nation to reduce government and bring manufacturing (jobs) back, or do you want those fortunate 1% and government to pay your way? Until that becomes crystal clear via the protesters, this movement will have a hard time having any effect..
Exactly, you have the right to assembly, but what we most immediately need is a comprehensive strategy, and related candidate, that implements all our demands at the same time, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management System of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to be 1 of 100,000 people needed to support a Presidential Candidate – such as myself or another you'd like to draft – at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
U DONT represent us. Idiots. U demand $$, say they want people to die.SERIOUSLY. All the companies u protest employ thousand of Americans. USA's capitalist not socialist. Stop claiming to b the 99%. ur .01%. Ur a joke
U DONT represent us. Idiots. U demand $$, say they want people to die.SERIOUSLY. All the companies u protest employ thousand of Americans. USA's capitalist not socialist. Stop claiming to b the 99%. ur .01%. Ur a joke
Actually, upward mobility is not in the toilet. It just takes hard work, not sitting on your asses on wall street
No, fact. Look it up.
U DONT represent us. u look like idiots. Ur people demand $$, say they want people to die.SERIOUSLY. All the companies u protest employ thousand of Americans. USA's capitalist not socialist. Stop claiming to b the 99%. ur .01%. Ur a punch line!
U DONT represent us. u look like idiots. Ur people demand $$, say they want people to die.SERIOUSLY. All the companies u protest employ thousand of Americans. USA's capitalist not socialist. Stop claiming to b the 99%. ur .01%. Ur a punch line!
U DO NOT represent Americans. You look like complete idiots. Ur people demand $$, say they want people to die..SERIOUSLY. All the companies u try to protest employ thousand of Americans. This is a capitalist nation not socialist. Stop claiming to be the 99%...u r the .01%. Your a punch line!
U DO NOT represent Americans. You look like complete idiots. Ur people demand $$, say they want people to die..SERIOUSLY. All the companies u try to protest employ thousand of Americans. This is a capitalist nation not socialist. Stop claiming to be the 99%...u r the .01%. Your a punch line!
U DO NOT represent the Americans. You look like complete morons. Your people demand money, say they want people to die...SERIOUSLY. All the companies u try to boycott/protest employ thousand of Americans. This is a capitalist nation not socialist. Stop claiming to be the 99%...u r the .01%. Your a punch line!
U DO NOT represent the Americans. You look like complete morons. Your people demand money, say they want people to die...SERIOUSLY. All the companies u try to boycott/protest employ thousand of Americans. This is a capitalist nation not socialist. Stop claiming to be the 99%...u r the .01%. Your a punch line!
To the contrary, I think they're quite amused by the assemblies.
99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer......that's how much focus you guys have!!!!
This is one of the few points made on this forum that makes sense.
The majority doesn't yet know what we want. We have to make up our mind.
If not capitalism,then what??? please tell me!!!
I don't reject capitalism. I reject corporatism.
If not capitalism,then what??? please tell me!!!
well, i think it unwise to alienate people who consider themselves to be conservatives or tea partiers, for one...
Agreed.
You're absolutely correct. Visibility and persistence are the most important things this movement requires. Maintaining momentum is difficult - we have families, obligations, jobs, etc. to keep us busy. Staying out there and demonstrating is the most important thing everyone can do.
that will change over time.
http://www.oligarchyusa.com/
http://www.istockanalyst.com/finance/story/5390832/some-fascinating-stats-about-our-corporate-oligarchy
http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/category/21st-century-challenges/ethicsandeconomics/
According to a 2008 article by David Rothkopf, the world’s 1,100 richest people have almost twice the assets of the poorest 2.5 billion (Rothkopf, 2008). Aside from the obvious problem – that this global elite has their hands in everything from politics to financial institutions – …
http://theprogressiveplaybook.com/2011/09/occupywallstreet-an-american-tahrir/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ght22PnCXy0
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/wisconsin-is-ground-zero_b_825321.html
http://last-lost-empire.com/blog/?tag=global-corporate-oligarchy
To the extent that we, the people, are removed from control over our lands, marketplaces, central banks, and media we are no longer empowered. In practice, those few who do control the land, central bank, media and "free market" are the real rulers of our corrupt and declining "democracy."
Due to propaganda from a corporate-owned and edited media we are kept from knowing, much less debating, the nature of our system. Due to a central bank owned by bankers, media owned by a few global concerns, and trade regime controlled by global corporations (i.e., one designed to remove the people from control over their markets and environments) the vast majority have become little more than latter-day serfs and neo-slaves upon a corporate latifundia.
To restore a semblance of effective democracy and true freedom Americans, and people around the world, need to re-educate themselves as to the true nature of their political and economic systems. Toward this end, OligarchyUSA.com is dedicated to providing old and new information, books, links, reform ideas and debates not easily found or accessed today in establishment media.
OligarchyUSA.com is but one more site and sign of the times as ground-up counter-revolutions arise around the world... all in response to a forced and freedomless globalization courtesy of a ruling global elite perfecting their top-down plutocracy and revolutions of the rich against the poor. In short, democracy is no longer effective today. For this reason, it is toward a restoration of truly effective and representative democracies, and natural freedom, that this site is dedicated.
I think we should say more than "peaceably assemble". I think we should just say, "END CORRUPTION". If enough people start saying it, the politicians will try and appease. We keep saying it and get more and more results until we are sated.
May I suggest something just a little more targeted?
Election and lobbying reform. It is specifically that and something everyone from nearly every faction of this movement can get behind.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-central-message-we-need/
I have already commented on your thread previously. I think for now, just the central message is best. We can hash out the details as we go. Right now, we don't even have END CORRUPTION as the main demand (although I think that it is there, merely unstated)
A central message without direction is simply a vague call to action, which does nothing but put another popular slogan or tagline into the pop-political discussion of two inherently corrupt parties.
A central message formed around a singular ideological viewpoint alienates portions of the movement's base, while also serving up a singular partisan wedge issue to campaign on, were it to be adopted.
This, as I say, breaks the back of the machinery which perpetuates the corruption and opens up the field for our various ideas and calls to arms to be heard, debated and if supported by a fairly informed majority, voted into law.
Thank you for your participation in my discussion though. Promotion of such an idea causes one to lose track of the names and handles to which one is promoting it.
Actually, I should apologize. I meant to include a wink after I mentioned commenting on your thread. It's impossible to keep track of things... but for what it's worth, you made enough of an impression on me that I remembered you and your thread without clicking on it.
I think a central message with a vague call to action does help. As we grow bigger the political parties will start to cow-tow to us. We just keep demanding more while continually trying to swell our ranks. I was reading the following article and he makes a good point. Successful movements usually have a easily learnable slogan that is a call to action.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterleeds/2011/10/11/whos-occupying-wall-street/
I disagree, though I thank you for the nod. The political parties are already trying to co-opt us, as are the unions, as is Ron Paul's camp and the anti-FED movement, as are environmentalists, as are anti-war activists, etc...
It is my belief that ending the mechanisms behind institutional and corporate corruption and collusion of/with government is the only unifying issue. Despite their ideologies, "end corporate greed" is the most popular sign and "my voice isn't being heard" is the most popular sentiment.
In my discussions, I've found that not only is ending private financing of elections and reforming the manner in which lobbying may be performed the most palatable issue, but that the idea that all of our respective ideas will have a stronger chance to see their way to power after this is accomplished is the most effective argument in favor.
We must see this movement through with the realization that this coalition is only as strong as its most unifying central issue. Without one, we're subject to co-option (attempts for which are already underway) or irrelevancy. With too strong an issue or too many specific issues, we risk marginalizing our own movement's population and in declining of our numbers, weakens us as we move forward.
I've been shouting many of those things for the past few days on here. I am in agreement and I've given your posting a point.
Will you be attending any occupations in your area? If you do, will you carry this message onto the committees and factions which are encamped and occupying?
I'm up in Northern Michigan and the nearest one is three hours away in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I also rarely get two days off in a row which makes it difficult. However, I am planning on going the moment I do. I'm hoping to make it to Portland at the end of this month and had been planning on going to Vegas (hopefully they'll have one going by that point).
I interviewed with a blogger from Forbes magazine the other day and tried to push this point home, but he concentrated on other areas. http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterleeds/2011/10/11/whos-occupying-wall-street/
Message and support are message and support no matter how theyre done. I'm back off to Boston in a day or two, then to NY and possibly Philly. Cheap Chinatown bus tickets...I would die without them.
Max Keiser - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zpp3BNUgGM&feature=channel_video_title
It makes no difference whether people support this protest or not. The economy is NOT going to get better under the current system. We need change. People who disagree are just comfortable in the status quo, but it won't take long for this to turn around. The more people start protesting, the more affect this will have on the economy as well. This isn't going away, even if everyone put their signs down and left, the Government will enforce consequences for the disobedience that will cause more issues.
Try this instead.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-central-message-we-need/
thats a lie ows stands for tax cuts for middle class modernize roads and bridges invest in middle class not banking class by raising minimum wage thats the oocupy wall sreet message
I though that was what the Democratic party was for?
seems to me you are not reading the signs or listening to the ows protestors we have never supported republican views
I didn't realize those were my only choices ;)
I think that's because of the format and the quantity of posts... there is some really good stuff here... but you got to search for it...
http://www.occupytogether.org/discuss is much easier to follow
Nice try but naive. A Movement is built otherwise it is just a giant party. You can organize demos and protests but at some point, to be taken more seriously, you need to promulgate some document listing grievances with an analysis of why this is. The simple answer: We have a Plutocracy not a Democracy. 90% of Wealth is in the hands of 10%. The political system is dysfunction and corrupt. Elections are meaningless until they are publicly funded. Taxes on wealthy need to be increased. Your banner can be FIght the Plutocracy/Work for Democracy. You use facts to explain why we need these reforms. These reforms are straight to the point, basic, and nearly all would agree. That is what you need, a foundation of agreement. During the Civil Rights Battle and the Antiwar Movement against our involvement in Vietnam, those protests were singularly focused. This movement has be similarly focused if it is to find wind agreement. I submit to you that these reforms most of us would agree with. Then keep protesting but organize chapter and have meetings. to educate and plan more creative protests. After a while, you need to do some different things.
Nobody wants to be left out of the party ;) plenty of people could care less about political struggle. I support calls for democracy (either through campaign finance or systemic reform) personally and as cause for this movement but it needs to be social and economic before political. The tactics of the Civil Rights and Antiwar movements haven't been serving us so well lately which isn't meant to denigrate them. But hey these 1% guys learn too...There were massive demonstrations in NY before the Iraq war that were completely ineffectual and ignored. I don't think anyone even flinched. Had those demonstrators been prepared to continuously occupy lower Manhattan en mass they could have been effective. Civil Rights movement aside, and I hate say this but I'm in no way convinced that the Anti-war movement ended the war (efforts of all deeply appreciated). There is no question that good things came out of this movement but those things were social and economic not its avowed political aims: they created the space for and support behind the Great Society, women's liberation, etc..
The real problem is that there seems to lack of organizational effort to build a Movement. I suggest a Movement organization is preferential and critical before building a Party but not necessarily. In the early 90s, Ross Perot's Party garnered 19% of vote in 1992 and that is with his age, ambivalence and horrible VP candidacy. The Progressive Party in the second decade of the 20th century (TR's Bull Moose Party) had a major impact as well. The first step, I think, is building a Mass Movement through Protests, Education, and Good Organization which could push for reforms. The suggestion of building economic and socials structures is great and can continue on simultaneously. I like the idea of our own banks. We can also build our own communities for that matter (some of this has been going on for a while). We can get off the grid as well (more idealistic of course but possible as I know people who have done it). The idea of establish our own banks or credit unions is something I totally support. Protests can be VERY effective for several reasons: 1) attracts like-minded people who want to do something; 2) it is a great moment for education; 3) attracts corporate media coverage which is hard to get. Do not under-estimate this. The bottom line is that there needs to be serious people ready to do something. Practical ideas like yours are great for this very reason. I have developed a corollary about organizing as I was an organizer for a number of years. It goes like this: If nothing is getting done, it's because no one wants to do it. Sounds stupid but there is a lot of truth in it. The Occupy Wall Street crowd no doubt has attracted a lot of people who are angry and want change. Working for change is something very different and that is where you lose most people, say 90-99%. Movement lacks leadership (?), organization, and a Program and Analysis which, obviously, is absolutely necessary. I can tell from the little time I have spent on this site (from some of the responses I get) that there are a lot of people with adolescent-like energy who ultimately can not or probably will not sustain the effort. Also, many are not very educated or informed. That's okay, that's normal, par for the course. They can choose to get educated or we can ignore them or try to help them. Don't mean to sound condescending but we older and experienced people have something to offer. The young should be open-minded enough to listen and think. Too often, everyone just wants to opine with no serious research, analysis and reflection. I suggest a 1000 chapter across the country, with membership dues, educating people and setting up their own protests with communication amongst chapters, fundraising, etc. I may have already said this but this is the way you build an organization.
I accept. My real point here is that making ineffective (unpopular?) demands prematurely would drain away energy from the real work (organization building) that needs to take place here while jeopardizing the goodwill of the people outside the OWS.
Absolutely. I think we should present our agenda for change based on the four items I related: 1) Change Tax Structure (raise taxes on wealthy); 2) Reform Wall Street; 3) Electoral Reform; 4) Legislative Reform. We can spell out details as time permits. I have my own ideas as I have thought about this a long time. The results should come out of discussions and dialogue. My ideas could simply be a starting point. Others may have different ideas but, after many years of reflection, these are, I believe, essential reforms, the ones that can fix some real problems and make things fairer. Basically, we need to do several things (forgive me for being repetitive): A) Formulate what our protests are about, crystalize the major focus..... can provide an analysis of the nature of our govt.-Plutocracy and how wealth has become concentrated in tiny minority to the disadvantage of the society.; b) Recognize that education of all followers is crucial; c) Get message out to media and public through demonstrations; d) Development of Organization (chapters throughout country. Ultimately, way down the road, each chapter (or each region) would send delegate to Congress. This is bare outline. But it is pretty well thought out. We need people without egos, good facilitators, speakers, media people....I am sure we have lots of savvy technical people. From a cursory view of responses and contributions here, there appear to be some thinkers and very talented professionals here. Work has to be begin on this pretty fast.
kudos Dost. I love to see this things spelled out in the forums.
Agreed. Divide and Conquer is the oldest technique in the world. Also, I cannot wrap my mind around having demands...how is that democratic?
Ok so we assemble and issue no demands and what we will have is,instead of a movement, a glorified bitch session? Thanks but no thanks.
The founders thought awfully highly of your "bitch session", enough to include it First. Or at least Jefferson did and, you know those two other guys that didn't sign.
Well really, what is this movement going to mean if we don't start issuing real demands. Not bullshit demands, real demands that everyone can back.(im not raggin on us, we are just not being very effective.)
I think a right to free assembly/speech bitch session is definitely in order, that it is a worthwhile exercise and demand in its own right. Perhaps a movement towards greater democracy (either through campaign finance or systemic reform) is about everything you can reasonable hope for and still have a movement. Social and economic before political or we are going to be badly outflanked here and be waiting a long time to recover momentum.
Ok...I went to my local Occupy Wall street .....and asked ONE question NOBODY could answer.
Economic illiteracy is rampant. Yes, people across the political spectrum are ALL rightfully upset and have very valid grievances.....but we are where we are today for a reason. We have been too complacent and lazy to understand WHY we are where we are today and that it is NOT called Captitalism, or Socialism but Corporatism
To quote Mussolini "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power."
I repeat that quote often...
Capitalism is when the markets respond to supply and demand. Capitalism requires sound money and a solid legal system as accountability factors ( see Hayek, Road to Serfdom)
Corporatism is the merger of Big Banks/Corp with corrupt Govt. This is what we have today and not just that ...it is backed by fiat money which in all essence is THE counterfitting agency in the world and not held accountable by anybody ( the Federal Reserve System)
So instead of educating them, you decided to bitch on the internet about it......yeah....smooth.
Thank you, they really like to excoriate me here. Its nice when some one can hear what I'm saying.
You are wellcome. Just don't lower yourself to their tactic. It has become an online desease and it prohibits debate , critical thinking and solutions...
I've noticed. Even the live stream chats are getting muddy...Guess you have to show up in person if you what to be serious ;)
Trust me, this is going to get ugly. Why...because it is not realistic to speak for 99% on one platform having demands. It cannot happen and history has already proven that. Propaganda is rampant and mainstream media is merely the propaganda mouthpiece for the Military Industrial complex only to keep the 'illusion of opposites' alive. I am talking about our one party system. This is going to be a mess....
True. I do know this though, the tactic occupy is sound, the location is good, if the center (NY) holds into the Spring we'll win sooner rather than later all else can be lost and regained. Feeding the hungry is awesome, the more we can integrate with social outreach and can actually aid people now in real time, the more legitimacy we gain. Which has the added bonus of keeping the hot-heads' hands busy. More than that, I don't know..yet.
Yes, it will still be a mess, but the 99% do have at least one thing in common. There is a platform that the 99% can rally to. Historically, you are correct in saying that if you took any 99% at random, you would not find anything in common with all of them.
But "The 99%" has a very specific meaning here; it's not the number that defines us. Rather, what defines us incorporates 99% of the people.
However..those 99% are easily ....divided and conquered. If a large percentage still cannot recognize we have a ONE party system and is stuck in partisan ship...my hopes are dire. This empire will have to burn and crash before it can be rebuild.
Let me propose an alternative to wholesale destruction.
Can we rally the 99% behind Systemic reform? Not policy demands - you are right, policy will divide the 99%. But no matter what our political beliefs - conservative, liberal, or otherwise - can we all agree that the System needs to be fixed?
They can poke and prod us about global warming, or gay marriage, but that's a sideshow if the system that we use to mediate these disagreements doesn't work. The system we are using is democracy, but - as you say - we have a one-party system that doesn't answer to the demos. It answers to campaign money.
That's why I keep saying: Occupy needs to forget about policy demands and demand Systemic reform. We need to get money out of politics and get our government to respond to the people, again. Isn't that what the 99% has in common?
What happens if we start with campaign finance reform? With abolishing corporate personhood? With disclosing the finances of members of Congress? We are still free to disagree over economic policy, or over energy reform - using a system that responds to us, the demos, rather than to the corporate interest. Isn't that the starting point we need to re-engage the 99% in government, and to re-engage the government with the 99%?
How about this for systemic reform: The system we are using is a Republic. This is not democracy. We demand democracy (at least it has a better ring to it than Campaign finance reform) ;) bonus=fits easily on a sign/soundbite.
We have a Constitutional Republic with Democratically elected...representatives ( and not leaders as the media keeps saying).
Congress is not democratically elected at least not in the sense of "one person, one vote" due to the unequal representation of citizens in their Senate, which is mirrored in most states with bi-caramel legislatures. The president is elected by the electoral college which is usually elected by state legislatures which, one hopes, are elected by the citizenry; with the caveats above. The Supreme Court isn't elected at all. So where is the democracy supposed in be in action?
We elect our representatives in a democratic way. The entire system is a system of checks and balances. We do not have a pure democracy but we do vote individuals democratically into office.
Except that we don't. Citizens are routinely disenfranchised and money elects our representatives. The check is on the will of the people to govern themselves, the balance is to ensure that money is equally import to the will of the majority.
its called lobbying ;) and yes money in campaigns etc is at the root of all evil.
Financial interests were present at the creation and created a system that favored financial interest.
has it ever been any different? I mean if you solely look at the framework of the Constitution I disagree. If you look at the many attempts to corrupt the system I do.
Sure, if rarely. You don't see the 3/5ths clause as supportive of a financial elite?
I don't want to enter into the argument here, but the system we are using is a democratic republic, or a representative democracy. It is still a democracy - the theoretical definition, which is that power stems from the people, and the people legitimize the government.
It may seem like a fine distinction, but it was explicitly made at the Constitutional Convention by the founding fathers. It was in fact quite a theoretical innovation, at the time.
..because its nonsense. That's a Republic, they just called it that to confuse every one. And to mask the fact that there is very little democracy present, and none at all for direct democracy (ballot initiatives excepted). The ancient Athenians are laughing their asses off at us now ;)
Campaign finance reform...Citizens United just struck down McCain-Feingold....Where was everybody when that happened?
For myself, I won't give up. I am a political junkie and continue daily to spread awareness but in reality...I am not sure where this is leading....other than an opportunity for the govt to seize the moment once more.
I was there in 2008 questioning my Congress woman on the first bank bailout under Bush...on election night. Look where we are today....Where was everybody?
I don't know where everyone was. But we're here now. That's what I keep trying to point out. We are here now.
Every political movement has a huge motivational barrier to overcome. Inertia is a killer. But that's been taken care of, by chance as it always is. There is momentum building. I don't know why it didn't happen earlier - I would love to sit down, you, me and a few million citizens, and sort that out later - but what matters is that there is momentum happening now.
I don't think many people realize how precious that is, and how urgent it is to build that momentum. Those of us who do recognize that, don't we have some responsibility here? It might not work, but just from our awareness, don't we have a responsibility to try?
We are here now...and I still cannot have people answer economic questions at our local Occupy Wall street....with some not even willing to answer my questions or willing to listen to my facts...
The road is not easy. We can not expect everyone to be policy experts, or even to be policy journeymen.
People are wholesale and universally dumber than we want them to be.
But they are smarter than we give them credit for.
And they know Something is Wrong. They might not be able to verbalize it, they might not be able to craft soaring oratory about it. But they know something is wrong, and they are here, and they are looking.
They might not do it perfectly, they might not do it the way you and I always envisioned The People would do it, but there is a chance here that they can do something.
I would ask you not to look for perfection. Just look at what's here. Don't only look for reasons they are doomed - look also for what can be done. If they don't know how to say it, try to help them. If one person doesn't hear you, another might. This is what working with a diverse community means.
It does not take much to know something is terribly wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=o-pav_yPFkI watch..
your a fucking idiot and none of this will go anywhere until you get some scientifically sound theories behind what you are trying to accomplish. Trying to get my point across here has shown me just how unconcerned most people are with debating the facts. Even now we seem to be mostly obsessed with the outward appearance of what we are doing. This is fucking insane.
FACT: You contributed nothing by your reply and you did it in an entirely asinine way.
Perhaps a little less vitriol would be in order. I tend to agree with Dankpoet here, even if his post seems to push the boundary of instigating an even more aggressive response.
Curious. How so?
If someone is going to go on a profanity laced rant and you respond by calling their action asinine. It usually does not end in intellectual conversation. :)
I thought you meant that the original Post felt instigating.
That guy wasn't trying to have a conversation. And asinine wasn't my first choice of words either that was after my mental moderator intervened ;) I think that a lot of people have been waiting for a long time to see something like this and it makes them harried for something tangible. Also being immersed in these things really gives you a sense of power that can lead toward hubris. This needs to be a social and economic movement BEFORE a political one.
I could not agree more.
The one thing that the 99% can rally behind is that money has replaced voters in representation, and we need to reverse that.
Occupy is not going to have the luxury of waiting for support. Right now the momentum is built on novelty, and that has a built-in expiration date. Without a focus and a message, there will be no new recruits when the new car smell dissipates.
I think Occupy is going to be faced with a choice very soon. They can either go with the 99% message, or they can go with the progressive policy message. They will not have both.
I keep saying the same thing so I apologize for c/p this... But, this is what needs to happen. There has to be some tangible threat that the Banks fear.
As the situation stands voting out this corrupt official and in that corrupt official is not going to change anything. We have been voting in and out a revolving door of officials for decades and none of them have been able to fight back the corruption that is ruling this country. The 99% have to fight that corruption. This is the beginning of a revolution. This is the gathering storm of a Financial War that may just shake the fabric of our society. But, that is not necessarily a bad thing. I think that our society needs to be shaken up. I think that, United, the 99% need to refuse the Credit System and bring the Banks to their knees so they will relinquish control of the Government back to the People. We need to stop paying our mortgages, car loans, insurance, medical bills, student loans, etc. We need to pull our money out of the Stockmarket, bonds, 401k's, etc. We need to show the Banks that We stand against their corrupt system of Capitalist Governance and that we want our Democratic Republic back. We do this not to get rid of Capitalism, or to punish the wealthy with new taxes, or to bring in any kind of Socialism. In fact we do this to remove Socialism for the wealthy 1% and have them return to the Capitalistic economy we live in. But, Capitalism is not our system of Government. So We the People have to rise up and fight this Financial Revolution. We have to play chicken with the economy on the brink of destruction and force the Banks and their Corporate pawns to leave our Government alone. Then, and only then, can we vote and have our voice truly heard at the polls.
When we can mobilize like this... then we will get what we need.
You think you have critical mass to pull your money out of the system and have it collapse? I think that's nonsense. Besides, trying to make a mass movement out of people acting AGAINST their near term self interest is not going anywhere. It already exists www.moveyourmoneyproject.org The banks aren't going to blink from this. Put 1 million people on the street in lower Manhattan with the infrastructure to KEEP THEM THERE and its game over for the 1%.
so true
What is wrong with the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances as a focus and a message? There will be no recruits if we systematically alienate the people with poorly constructed demands. I am not arguing against a reversal of money in politics as a central theme of the movement...I am only arguing against the demand creep which has become ubiquitous in these forums.
Nothing wrong with it. Except we kind of already have that right. I was just down there. It was pretty peaceful. There won't be much recruiting going on for that, either.
I absolutely agree that poorly constructed demands are dangerous. I'm just don't think the solution is "no demands at all." The solution will be focused, well-constructed demands. That comes after infrastructural organization. I am concerned that sitting back and saying, "we can do the important stuff later" will end up with the important stuff not getting done. So, in a sense, I advocate urgency.
I am not advocating doing nothing..structural and tactical organization needs to evolve before demands. The urgency is tactical, I watched Boston live and there is almost no video circulating, we are on borrowed time. The night take down tactic was way to effective against us. But there aren't "no demands at all" everyone has their pet demands and in fact that is fine, that is strength. It can't be easily pigeon holed or spun so as to give the 99% the perception that we don't advocate their interest.
i disagree. The vast majority of American public don't understand us. Once they understand that we protest for everyone who has been left out of the system for the last 50 years, they will appreciate what we do.
I doubt they will understand when the mainstream media starts spinning our demands.
not yet... they will be once shit gets bad. the powers to be wanted these protests to already be underway so they could steer the peoples anger once it does get bad
let me get this straight...when "the shit gets bad" you actually think I would want YOU to have my back?