Forum Post: The Ultimatum
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 10, 2011, 8:22 p.m. EST by Birdman
(1)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I believe that our problems with the economy and the power of corporations are based on a structure that began when we started using money in exchange for goods. Money became the basis by which we measure value and we have developed a science for analyzing the value of every effort by assigning a dollar everything we can conceive. What we perceive as crimes by large corporations is seen as just good business sense when looked at it "objectively" on the spreadsheet. Government can fine a corporation and this can be figured into the analysis. "Can we still come out with a profit after paying the fine?" Corporations feel like they have a moral obligation to their stockholders. Our puritan work ethic makes us feel morally obligated to do what we were hired to do.
I hope that, at the very least, this movement will force the government to break up corporations that have become wealthier and more powerful than any government, and create financial incentives that will make responsible decisions by corporations cost effective.
Ideally, I would like for the system to change so completely that we no longer see money as the measure of all value. The only way for this to work is for money to have no value and this change could be brought about by a mass effort to stop making all payments to corporations, but to keep working while developing new ways and systems to distribute our goods and services to others freely.
"Are you suggesting we go back to a barter system, Birdman?"
No, I envision an anarcho-syndicalist system, similar to what the occupiers are doing. No one is worrying about trading services and achieving some sort of equity. People are working and helping each other. I pray to God that we do something like this if the stock market completely crashes and the corporations go belly up and most of the people are out of work. We should keep working and GIVE the services away, NOT TRADE. In a crisis we must feed anyone who is hungry, take in anyone who needs shelter and treat anyone who needs medical help. Why can't we do this before we are in a crisis? Because, everything is OWNED by someone who is trying to get the highest possible price for their goods and services. This was efficient and is still certainly more efficient than bartering, but haven't we evolved enough that we can just do our work and help others every way we can and have faith that we will be helped by others? Probably not...but may we please work towards something like this?
I am not proposing a total lawless anarchy. We will need the protection of police, military, etc. but these must serve the people's needs, determined by a true democracy: something we have never really seen either. All laws would go from local consensus to a national consensus. It is possible that our present nation is too large and would need to become separate autonomous regions, however, continued associations with wider regions could help provide us with more goods and services, greater security and general harmony with the rest f the world. Obviously all of this would work best if it happened globally. This could be either an emergency plan if everything falls apart or an alternative that would be what the 1% fear more than anything else.
"Either give a representative government that isn't bought and paid for by corporations or there will be no centralized government and the workers will take over the corporations!
Sounds nice but then you run into reality. There is no reason to work if everyone gets the same thing without regard to effort. It would actually seem pretty dumb to work hard if we all get the same reward no matter what. I can see a desire to help society in general as motivating me for a while, but when you are giving things a lot of effort and some jerk is sitting around getting his food and house and whatever the same as you, it becomes stupid to work hard.
That doesn't begin to address how goods get distributed. You will have to fulfill everyone's desires, or make everyone equally unhappy. Otherwise goods will have some value to people and that will bring back some form of barter or monetary system. Design any system you want, but people will still act like people.
Our reason for working is to serve others.
On a few occasions it's even the only one, but for most it's self interest. So much easier to the let others work while you get the benefits. Sooner or later the those doing the actual work begin to feel like fools or slaves to the lazy.
well said interesting concept - but how about doing what CAN BE DONE?
Nov 12 6PM 60 Wall St We are the 83%
We have a large number of great, well thought out, COMPLICATED ideas that will require a huge amount of "selling" and “explanation" and will garner GREAT OPPOSITION.
We need to be realistic & pick an issue that is simple – and that is popular -
that 83% of Americans already agree on -
that 76% of Republicans already agree on -
that 56% of TP already agree on -
that will bring together the people in OWS with the people outside of OWS.
Everybody wins!
Our only goal should be to pass a constitutional amendment to counter Supreme Court decisions Citizens United (2010) & Buckley v. Valeo (1976), that enable unlimited amounts of anonymous money to flood into our political system.
“Corporations and organizations are not a persons & have no personhood rights”
and
“money is not free speech”.
We don’t have to explain or persuade people to accept our position – we have to persuade them to ACT based on their own position. Pursuing this goal will prove to the world that we, at OWS, are a serious realistic Movement, with serious realistic goals. Achieving this goal will make virtually every other goal – jobs, taxes, infrastructure, Medicare – much easier to achieve –
by disarming our greatest enemy – GREED.
THE SUCCESS STORY The Prohibition movement started as a disjointed effort by conservative teetotalers who thought the consumption of alcohol was immoral. They ransacked saloons and garnered press coverage here and there for a few years. Then they began to gain support from the liberals because many considered alcohol partially responsible for spousal and child abuse, among other social ills. This odd alliance, after many years of failing to influence change consistently across jurisdictions, decided to concentrate on one issue nationally—a constitutional amendment. They pressured all politicians on every level to sign a pledge to support the amendment. Any who did not, they defeated easily at the ballot box since they controlled a huge number of liberal, and conservative and independent swing votes in every election. By being a single-issue constituency attacking from all sides of the political spectrum, they very quickly amassed enough votes (2/3) to pass the amendment in Congress. And, within just 17 months, they were successful in getting ¾ of the state legislatures to ratify the constitutional amendment into law. (Others were ratified even faster: Eight —took less than a year. The 26th, granting 18-year-olds the right to vote, took just 99 days.)
If they could tie the left and right into a success -
If Ohio won. If Arizona won. If Maine won. If Mississippi won - WHY CAN'T WE ??????????
I feel that we should stay with this simple text to overturn CU:
”corporations are not people” and “money is not free speech”
for four simple reasons and one – not so simple:
1
83% of Americans have already opposed CU in the ABC/Washington post poll and the above
IS THEIR POSITION ALREADY.
2
We don’t have to work to convince people on the validity of our position.
3
Simple is almost always better.
4
This simple Amendment is REQUIRED to overturn CU.
And all other electoral reform can be passed through the normal legislative process.
5
OWS and these pages are chock full of ( mostly ) excellent ideas to improve our country.
All of them have strong advocates – and some have strong opposition.
None of them has been “pre-approved” by 83% of Americans !
Pursuing this goal – without additional specifics is exactly what Americans want.
What do we want? Look at that almost endless list of demands – goals - aims.
Tax the rich. End the Fed. Jobs for all, Medicare for all. So easy to state! Can you imagine how hard it would be to formulate a “sales pitch” for any of these to convince your Republican friends to vote for any of them?
83% of Americans have ALREADY “voted” against CU. And 76% of the Rs did too.
All we have to do ask Americans is to pressure their representatives – by letters - emails – petitions.
Wanna take your family on vacation?
Convince the 7 year old and the 10 year old to go to Mt Rushmore.
Then try to convince them to go to Disneyland.
Prioritizing this goal will introduce us to the world – not as a bunch of hippie radical anarchist socialist commie rabblerousers – but as a responsible, mature movement that is fighting for what America wants.
Ohio won. Arizona won. Maine won. Mississippi won -
I feel that using their tactics, and the tactics of the NRA, the AARP an the TP – who all represent a minority – who have successfully used their voting power to achieve their minority goals - plus the Prohibition Amendment tactics – bringing all sides together - is a straight path for us to success that cannot fail to enable us to create and complete one MAJORITY task.
Birdman, you're not in the Sub-Sahara, but I understand that money is totally a synthetic idea.
http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/ This is what we aren't fighting Propaganda is the weapon that controls the minds of Americans.
Every person controlled by propaganda, denies being controlled. It is up to each individual in the privacy of his own mind to consider his/her own behavior. If you are unwilling to examine self destructive behavior that is impacting your own ability to get a job, to allow the privileged to transfer your wealth to them by unfair taxation, to poison your air/water/food (remember the BP oil spill), and to bribe the entire congress for laws benefiting them at your expense, then you are a traitor.
Each one of these individuals defensively denies having a weak mind that can be manipulated. It is that defense that backfires. If people understood that their own self destructive behavior which forces them to vote for either of the 2 bribed candidate with the most money. The amount of money raised indicates which candidate has been bribed. When the bag men spread the cash to both Democratic and Republican candidates in the race, its because they don't know for sure who will win the election.
It is stupid and ignorant to vote for any candidate receiving bribes. The reason no American will call the bribes by name is the obvious fact that proves each of the 98% voting for the bribed candidate is in the deep propaganda trance they deny. They are too arrogant to consider they might be bribed. They would rather be thrown into the street with no job prospects than to deal with the trance that drives them to vote against themselves.
Curiosity that examines the irrational behavior is necessary to snap the trance. But the arrogance prevents the curiosity with denial. It is the same as a dog chasing his own tale going round and round.
There can be no end in sight until dealing directly with the propaganda trance begins on a national scale. The alternative will be electing the same crooks taking bribes. Its up to each individual to recognize self destructive behavior.
Steve you have admitted that you are a convicted felon who spent 9 years in prison for extortion. Why are you looking for your next prey here?
Maybe our smallest groups could call themselves towns or cities. Then a bunch of those in one area or region could group together as maybe a state. And what if all those states formed a larger group or union for protection or something. Then we'd need a cool name like THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!
Please re-edit. Is too painful to read without paragraph breaks.
i think i know what my soul's got to say, tonight
Paragraph breaks please.
i'm giving you an ultimatum, hoss
Giving me an ultimatum? :)
: ) what a great night huh?
I guess you could say that. :)
Maybe we could all stick a feather in each other's ass and fly around and wave at the magic unicorns too!
Good luck with that asshole
Hahaha!!! Perfect!
What is your purpose?
http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
There are some of us on this miraculous planet we call earth who prefer to be informed with accurate information. However Americans prefer to receive fairy tales that attempt to prove Americans are honest, hard working, charitable, honest people.
The mass media has become the business that claims to perform that function of hypocrisy that always looks the other way. The other way from Joe Paterno, the other way from the serial liar Obama, the other way from the bribes to each member of the congress, and the list is a bottomless pit of hypocrisy. Most of us have a variety of interests ranging from politics, to sports, to gossip about celebrities, to crime and the justice system, to the weather and traffic conditions, to new products, to financial information about economics and securities, to foreign countries, to fashions, and everything under the rainbow.
SCREWED AGAIN is dedicated to expose the propaganda delivered by government officials through its media arm that constantly attempts to mislead potential voters who government officials try to control for the purpose of keeping those officials in power.
Why don't the victims whose jobs have been stole, whose pensions have been stolen, whose middle class prosperity has been stolen call bribes -- bribes? Why do the victims keep calling bribes "campaign finance, or corporate money, or donations, or contributions"? For the same reason that molested children protect the molester, they are in a trance. We Americans are the victims of bribes. From the Supreme Court's bribe blessing to the media, the propaganda trance has whitewashed a simple, obvious crime that victimizes all of us. It is the self destructive behavior by otherwise intelligent Americans that prove they have been put into a trance.
Steve you have admitted that you are a convicted felon who spent 9 years in prison for extortion. Why are you looking for your next prey here?
I wrote a book about it you moron. You know the story because you are a genius, asshole.
http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/ This is what we aren't fighting Propaganda is the weapon that controls the minds of Americans.
Every person controlled by propaganda, denies being controlled. It is up to each individual in the privacy of his own mind to consider his/her own behavior. If you are unwilling to examine self destructive behavior that is impacting your own ability to get a job, to allow the privileged to transfer your wealth to them by unfair taxation, to poison your air/water/food (remember the BP oil spill), and to bribe the entire congress for laws benefiting them at your expense, then you are a traitor.
Each one of these individuals defensively denies having a weak mind that can be manipulated. It is that defense that backfires. If people understood that their own self destructive behavior which forces them to vote for either of the 2 bribed candidate with the most money. The amount of money raised indicates which candidate has been bribed. When the bag men spread the cash to both Democratic and Republican candidates in the race, its because they don't know for sure who will win the election.
It is stupid and ignorant to vote for any candidate receiving bribes. The reason no American will call the bribes by name is the obvious fact that proves each of the 98% voting for the bribed candidate is in the deep propaganda trance they deny. They are too arrogant to consider they might be bribed. They would rather be thrown into the street with no job prospects than to deal with the trance that drives them to vote against themselves.
Curiosity that examines the irrational behavior is necessary to snap the trance. But the arrogance prevents the curiosity with denial. It is the same as a dog chasing his own tale going round and round.
There can be no end in sight until dealing directly with the propaganda trance begins on a national scale. The alternative will be electing the same crooks taking bribes. Its up to each individual to recognize self destructive behavior.
Last reply forever.