Forum Post: Why Occupy Wall Street Could End Up Being A Dream Come True For Grover Norquist and Karl Rove.....SPLEUCH!
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 8, 2011, 8:05 p.m. EST by puff6962
(4052)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
The Republicans, neoconservatives, teabuggers, and libertarians run upon three sources of fuel. These are:
Money,
Race,
And Abortion.
Now, I hope the world can one day be a better place. But, until then, it is clear that we are going to have to play the cards we've been dealt.
That means identifying some reasonable and widely supported objectives and positioning the Occupy movement as a moderating voice in a world of extremes. These themes may include removing big money from our politics, strict restrictions upon lobbyist activities, reaffirming medicare and social security, and driving policies that reduce the troubling income inequality in our nation. That is for you to decide.
The purpose of this message is to encourage us to, while continuing these discussions, focus upon political realities.
As already evident in President Obama's more recent speeches, the Democratic party has seen an opening and are adopting more populist themes. It is our job, as I've described in another thread, to leverage our numbers and control the Democratic Congressional primaries. OWS can be a kingmaker and "The Promise To The American People" can be a means of projecting our values onto, at least, one party in our government.
Now, that brings up my next point. The Republican party has adopted a very reactionary tone towards the Occupy movement and is using any perceived radicalism as a means of circling their wagons. The want you, in the strongest possible terms, to propose neosocialist or abstract proposals and make their jobs easier.
But, again, money, race, and abortion. The Occupy movement seeks to limit the influence of money and greed in our culture and in our government. Strike One. We seek to improve the plight of minorities and the poor by maintaining our social safety net. Strike Two. And, as far as I know, OWS has generated no significant discussions regarding the issue of abortion. However, in the minds of Republicans, you are Pro-choice. Strike Three.
Believe me, I live in the presence of mine enemies and you are not going to bring Republican or Teabugger groups into your fold. You have too many strikes against you and you simply can't outcrazy the crazies. They will unite against you, turn out in greater numbers, and.....unless the Occupy movement transitions into a political movement, you will only make them stronger.
This is an interesting paradox, but I would submit that we have already seen it occur. The leaders of the Egyptian revolts, particularly in Tahrir Square, were students, intellectuals, and secularists. They were highly dependent upon technology and the internet. And, they were quickly successful in their demonstrations and Mubarak was removed. However, only 19% of Egyptians have access to the internet and in the recent elections, the Muslim Brotherhood and more radical Islamist parties won the Parliamentary elections by a large margin.
How could this happen.....a group of secularists overthrow a government but a group of conservatives takes it over? Well, the secularists were urban, their message was muddled, their objectives were unclear, and their arguments nuanced. It took five conversations to explain their views rather than five slogans.
On the other hand, the competing factions were organized as political entities from the start with circumscribed ideologies and followings. Their objectives were clear and they preyed upon the fears of the average, rural, citizen.
Is this scenario beginning to sound familiar? I am old enough to remember that it was the student anti-war protests of the 1960's that helped give us Richard Nixon. Occupy wall street could be the best thing to happen to the Republican party in years. In the 2012 elections, you will take the place of the communists, student radicals, and terrorists of lore. You have to be. The Republican machine runs on three fuels, but it wins elections on the basis of one thing......fear.
It is a great time to be a dreamer, but the Egyptian example should strike a note of caution in our ranks and remind us of political realities. Occupy must quickly organize, must support those politicians sympathetic to our ends, and must remain a voice of reason and moderation.
A thought-provoking post, puff. You are an asset to this forum. Keep up the good work.
Many thanks. I always write these things at night....if you could help me keep it on the radar screen here...I really think that this point needs to be made.
It's time to have a movement of the movable.
Will do. I've bookmarked it so I can come back and comment again later. It should be read. Makes a lot of sense.
Nice analysis, sobering. I hope this Forum Post stays on top. It needs to be read.
can anyone critically compare EPA actions and influence under the two different administrations? I keep hearing both parties are corrupt - this might be one way of demonstrating that there are, never the less, practical differences.
Both parties are corrupt, but only one is redeemable.
that is kinda my point.
Agreed. I just like saying that line.
There are a number of policy differences and, actually, governmental procedural differences between past Democratic and recent Republican Congressional regimes.
Jonathan Chait does a good job outlining these differences in the second half of "The Big Con."
I think that damn book should be required reading for everybody in the movement. Crap, you can buy it used on Amazon for a penny.
There is, of course, a way to play this to the advantage of OWS.
If Ron Lawl's events are consistently met with OWS protests.....and Newt, the most dangerous candidate, is left untouched....then Paul's support may further crystallize.
It is an odd chess move, but for OWS to weaken the strongest of Republican candidates, we must protest the weakest of Republican candidates.
Of all of these men (I'm not sure what Bachman is), Newt is by far the most dangerous. Further, he is so quick on his feet that any protest of his events could be counterproductive.
The only strategy I could think of with him would be to pass out false gift certificates to Tiffany's during his rallies. That would be a riot.
Or, have little black kids pass out mops.
personally I don't believe any of the repelicans have much chance and I think they all know it
I'm more concerned about the Congressional candidates. That is where the corporate influence through contributions makes a huge difference - where he with the most money wins.
I take it as a given that the repelican party is done - they just don't know it yet and in fact it may take a few years for it to actually sink in with real numbers.
I prefer to remind them, collectively - they are done.
They know its true. They just refuse to think about it.
But there is no denying any more - global warming is here.
they lied about it.
the people are gonna be pissed once it sinks in.
Well, the plan then would be to support a specific Democratic candidate in a Congressional primary and, once they had one that stage, have some OWS operatives protest the candidate in a distasteful way and declare that he or she had turned against OWS and were the candidate of the 1%. (All the while, the whole thing would be staged).
This would be the "Sister Soulgah" maneuver and would allow the Democratic candidate to attract moderate and conservative voters in the general election (all the while he or she had never, in fact, wavered from support of our ideals).
That's rather fucking brilliant. If only I had an army.
I'm afraid that tactic could backfire.
A lot of the Occupy members oppose both parties.
That's why I wish I had an army.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Many of us are beyond tired of the 'one party,two party system' OWS is about real change, ending the fractional reserve banking system/banking as it is and the synergistic push and pull of the mega-corporations on the national and global politics and the military industrial complex that is an integral part of it all and not going along with the same mental pablum that propagates it.
When and where is the independent candidate for the USA that would truly represent OWS?
Thanks for the reality check. I remember 1968 clearly, and it's disasterous political aftermath.
Good thing the Republicans seem hell bent on self destruction and are completely egging on their opponents to call them out on their roadblocking and supporting of the special interest groups instead of the people.
But true. People watch out for the coming of NDAA & FEMA camps. We could be heading towards a police state unless the 99% can band together cohesively to oppose oppression and retake our government.
Good post, Puff.
Grandstanding on the ideals of being better than the political system is still grandstanding. The reality of the lessons of Tahrir Square warn us - get realistic or get sucker punched below the belt. Sobering thoughts.
Yes, but that's the risk you must take. As they say: Rome was not built in one day.
No, but it was sacked in a day on multiple occasions.
Rewrite: Rome was not built in one day AND it was sacked in a day on multiple occasions.
My point is that we need to remind ourselves that very rarely all is either good or bad. It is often both.
Yes....and we need to see that, whereas one side has utilized the tools of the media, money, and our government, the Occupy movement has remained in city parks.
You can't down a Rhino with a ladyfinger. It's time to nut up.
yeah you better believe it could go south, after 9/11 and the paranoia it caused anyone who questions the gov't could be seen as a terrorist. It won't be long before the haters are witch hunting Mr Sanduskys victims. It gets kinda twisted in todays world.I think you should check out www.nationalday911.org and when you elect delegates have them put it on your agenda.P.S. I like the reference to Psalm 23
Dude, just because it's medical marijuana, doesn't mean that you can cannonball all night. You're overdoing it. When was the last time you masturbated? See. You're tripping and that N.A. brochure your mom gave you could be of use right now.
You're probably seeing this screen in purple.
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You must be a necrophiliac.
Sick fucker.
Try peanut butter and a dog.
The dog will probably look better then the last chick who would touch you.
Too fucking easy.
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You used a lot of words to say that. You could have just said "Uncle."
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You have to understand, that I have to fuck with people because it keeps me sharp. It's an outlet for the dark side of the force. Nothing personal.
Ah yes! An amphibian that needs to prove its true worth by regenerating its limbs and tail. Stop wriggling that little tail please and take a bath first, okay? What's an amphibian good for if not for finding water? Oh, what happened to the little tail? Does it hurt? Too much wriggling for power can twist the little tail off, you know, don't you?
Stick to the blue pills.
Actually, the Egyptian people wanted to go with the Muslim Brotherhood so what if the secularists do not have the upper hand in the election? Freedom for people includes their rights to CHOOSE to descend into hell. God put the Tree of Life AND the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil at Eden. Is it wrong to have faith in the people's choice? Yes, I grant you that Iran eventually descended into very undesirable states after their 1979 revolution but isn't that what those people inadvertently wanted with the religious clerics put in charge? It is also likely that the right-wing extremists will take away our Constitutional rights soon but I subscribe to the U.S. Army's slogan - I am the Army of One! I subscribe to the U.S. Constitution as a U.S. Citizen but nothing else unconstitutional.
Try the red pills.
Thanks. I'll try red pills. Perhaps turning purple will help.
I does no good to lead a revolution that will just allow a different regime to oppress the people.
The Who wrote a song about that.
I'll probably hold my breath till I turn purple trying to mate the newt with the Aphrodite statue. The ancient Greeks had really exquisite sense of beauty without being overly explicit so I may very well be stoned but I may learn how to survive waterboarding. Is that Aphrodite statue standing for 9/11 Truth? Will a fig leave detract from its beauty?
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Our political system has arcane rules that need people (majority or overwhelming majority) to overcome. When enough goes splat, people will say what has happened. Hopefully, it will not be too late.
That will be a mob, not a majority.
Yes, it may eventually go to that as a "Final Solution."
You choose a very offensive manner of phrasing that. Are you brain dead or just an asshole?
Close to both if I am actually still thinking - just contemplating the disturbing ultimate prospect. Sometimes it is simply unwise to think the "unthinkable" but covering all eventualities requires that so being just a complete asshole is probably better, a real relief, isn't it?
Read about the French Revolution and you may come to understand that we will all be better off it doesn't come to that.
Yes, there were lots of gory convulsions and the guillotine was invented as a clean way of executing people efficiently and humanely and one cannot trust anyone, especially the ones close by.
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Norquist has an organization backed by some very sources of money. He has these guys sign a pledge to never raise taxes. For the signors, he offers some token dollars to their campaigns. But, for those who won't sign or seem to be wandering from the anti-tax fold, his organization coordinates with many others to punish these congressmen in their Republicon primary elections. They will literally fund an opponent teabugger in the primary to unseat a Republicon incumbent.
They have been so successful in this strategy that, since 1991, not a single Republicon member of Congress.....not a one.....has voted for a tax increase of any type.
How odd? It comes down to power and money.
Everything in the history of man has come down to power....of which money is now a measure....and SEX.
However, since Republicans only have sex for reproduction, they have more energy to focus upon power.
If only we could get them laid!
Okay, I needed a chuckle!
I should have qualified that last sentence to exclude hookers, animals, meth addicts, and congressional pages.
And Newt!
With that salutation, you could be a Republican trolling on here looking to get laid.
( If you were- that would be the most clever undercover work I have seen all night)
I'm not that clever.
And you make too many logical points..
The puff-borg will assimilate all.....and, I hate to say this stuff, but I've watched the same mistakes being made by progressive groups or movements for almost 50 years.
Someone always thinks they can recreate the wheel.....with a square. Meanwhile, the other side refines their wheel and rolls all over you.
The student protesters of the 1960's shunned politics until 1968 and then, after the assassination of RFK, turned to the most liberal of candidates, George McGovern.
He was the wetdream of the reactionaries and the left dramatically overplayed it's hand.
Politics is about the possible and some steps have to be incremental.
So, when I hear someone talking about an online revolution or a wiki-society, I just fucking laugh and cry.
Mankind has survived this long by fearing the unknown....it is our basest of instincts. And it is therefore always difficult to unseat reactionary forces unless you can make people fear doing nothing more than they fear doing what you suggest.
Richard Nixon was the dark lord of this strategy and he summed it up best:
"People react to fear, not love; they don't teach that in Sunday School, but it's true."
The Norquist Tax Pledge? He got a bunch of repelicans to sign a pledge stating they would never raise taxes.
So guess who gets to pay for the wars of Bush that Congress never funded?
The poor, the mentally ill, school programs, but not one red cent will come off of corporate welfare because hey - that would be a tax . . . .
.
He was introduced to politics as a child by his parents who I think presented him to R. Nixon - or they worked on his campaign or something - anyway.
He fell in shit as a child and still stinks.
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yeah I dunno.
they're all insane.
First Power, Then Change.
Money. Race. Abortion.
Another DNC operative here.
Horseshit.
To be ineffective is to be dead.
Remaining peaceful and respectful is so important. If OWS is framed as dangerous and violent, that will strengthen the hand of the authoritarian tyrants.
As long as occupy wall street focuses on occupying parks, unfortunately puff's premise will ring true. Not that I mind, of course. I am a Republican and a Teabagger. I do not always believe in compromise, but I am afraid most everyone is running on broken policies and flawed ideas. So instead of debating on the fine points of crap, throw out the old and truly bring in the new. The left wants a safety net and the right wants government out? (an oversimplification, of course) OK have a safety net that is well run on less money. Hard as hell? Of course it is, but the idea is simple enough. Decrease the cost of living, force government to run efficiently, and have a flat tax with no loopholes or exemptions. Educate, Educate, Educate the voters. America will not survive on mindless twits with more knowledge about Dancing with the Stars than basic civics. It is not extreme because it excludes no one.
Good! Somebody is seeing a way out of our problem! It's a start all right. I just do not think that people on the right really want the government out. Remember the chant, "Keep government's hands off of my Medicare (or Social Security)!"? What did the Masters of the Universe run to for bailing them out during the financial crisis? Government! Yes, government can be overly heavy-handed but it is necessary for a sane and decent society. Voters just need to impart common sense to the government and be vigilant. A flat-rate tax does not take into account basic living allowances for lower-income people so we should allow generous personal exemptions. Also a gently progressive tax will probably help calm the bond market and reduce our interest expense on our very huge national debt without much real pain. A little bit of interest reduction on $15 trillion is a very big amount of money. Aside from these points, I am on-board!
No one has talked about abortion so I'll say something about it. I believe that human life begins within weeks of conception. I am applying the same rule for determining if a senior citizen is dead or not (i.e., Are there brain waves or heart beats?). Roe v. Wade may no longer be the correct decision but U.S. laws follow English Common Laws so we can respect and keep Roe v. Wade as a precedent, albeit outdated. We should strive for helping out those people facing the very difficult choice of abortion. I am of the opinion that abortion is NOT only taking out some "tissue"; it is much more than that.
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I agree, it will be hard to walk the walk. This transition will separate the sheep from the goats, so to speak. I am sorry, the progressive tax is not an evil notion, nor is it an ignoble one. However, it is bringing in a premise that must have zero tolerance in an age of belt tightening. The plight of the poor must not be ignored, but the flat tax has to stay in place to take away any and all means to negotiate a new percentage. It does seem harsh. If I were to take an army to throw all the poor people in institutions, that would be harsh. The flat tax is one tool among several to bring fiscal responsibility back to Washington. If we expect the poor to pay tax, let's find ways to streamline services, let's find ways to streamline FDA to bring cheaper drugs and food to market. If one level of regulation were in place that worked well instead of three that did not, it would stand to reason that cost of living would go down. I am afraid that if I bring abortion into this discussion, it will muck everything up. Suffice for me to say that I would not want my wife or children to have an abortion, I will leave the other people out there to make up their own mind
There ARE cheaper ways to bring cheaper drugs to the U.S. population but the Obama administration stands firmly aligned with the interest of the pharmaceutical companies. It barred our biggest medical insurance program Medicare from negotiating a volume discount with the drug companies. How stupid and ridiculous is that? Even I can negotiate a volume discount on some things but NOT the so-called "most powerful country in the world"??? Taking away any and all means to negotiate a new percentage for tax will have problems in the face of a financial crisis. We probably want to build huge amount of inertia into the agreed-upon rate(s) but not make them inflexible. However much I hated what the Federal Reserve did from QE2 onwards, I still liked that it pulled us back from the financial abyss with QE1 by printing ridiculous amount of money (even outsourced to a foreign country to run the printing presses at full speed).
Once the US government collapses, we can go back to growing pot an opium poppy's for home treatment, just like humans lived for 1,000's of years before nanny-ism government told us we have to have prescriptions and purchase drugs from 'drug companys', all designed to enrich doc's and big-pharma, with no desire for human treatment.
Opium definitely has its proper medicinal usages such as soothing someone caught in the agony of diarrhea at risk of dying from dehydration. Too many people and often governments fall into the trap of politically "correct" zero-tolerance policies against opium poppies for example. Yes, there are people who become addicts but there are also people whose pains can be relieved and their lives saved. Starkly black-or-white thinking is detrimental to solving the complex problems that human beings face because the ethical context is very important in any matter. I like strong government that "will" for the common good but I also want human enforcers who have some common sense. We just need to strike the proper balance. If human enforcers were truly inflexible, we would really have no need for them because letting a computer program take over can make the enforcement VERY inflexible. That IS a problem with our present government bureaucracy in the U.S. - too many moronic bureaucrats believing that their mission is only to enforce the "policy" rather than serving the people. I say, "Fire these people and put in computer programs that will EASILY achieve inflexibility at low costs." Karl Marx got the part about "alienation" right - once the tax money got to the government, the government people start thinking that they OWN the money and NOT the people. Instead they need to take the servant part of being public servants very literally.
The problem is much more complicated than simple excess of government spending. When you add up medicare, social security, medicaid, the military budget, and safety net programs (the bare minimum), you are over 85% on the budget.
So, every time there is a medical advance, whenever people are found to be living longer, and when more people lose their jobs......
You have to make some tough decisions. Very tough.
So, the issue is not just what we spend, it is that we don't want to pay for what we spend.
Anyone making less than 60,000 a year....as a lifetime average.....will end up getting more out of the system than what they pay in.
Puff I think its delusion to have change, have you studied the Federalist Papers? This is a nation of interest, cleverly designed to ensure that at least 10% of the citizens feed at the government pig trough, ensuring that 10% will always stand by the government know matter how evil or how much it fucks up.
Same for Egypt, lets remember that Egypt like all Middle-East countrys were created by the USA/BRITAIN post WWI/WWII, like IRAQ, which is a national-socialist state, but essentially setup by the USA-CIA, they all follow the USA model of FEDERALISM, and the basis of FEDERALISM by HAMILTON was "INTEREST", so long as key people are stake-holders in the system the system will remain intact.
That's why today, with the collapse of the US DOLLAR is our only hope of CHANGE, once the dollar is gone and the COPS&MILITARY don't get paid, then the system will change, but as long as the system has money to pay the cops, there will be no change.
OK?
Regarding paying the cops & military, looks like we would be going full circle, (especially since cops and military are paid so badly that they cannot even afford to live in the community they police/belong). My understanding is that the coins/money system was created precisely to pay soldiers, mostly because they were transient people. (People who lived/stayed in their communities didn't need the stuff, they just exchanged goods and services, and that seemed to work fine.)
Not long ago in ameriKKKa cops meant sheriff, and he was paid by the township, and he didn't dare beat or hurt someones kid or he would get his ass kicked,
Post 1890's the corporations created modern law enforcement, and the People lost control of their 'sheriff', the police being answerable only to the status quo, tycoon or 1%-er of that township.
Getting rid of the Police, and Federal Police and returning to LOCAL sheriff would empower the people, the current system was designed only to destroy the unions, that was the industrial corporations response to unionization in the 1890's the trick is the corporations got the people to PAY ( taxed ) to be policed by the goons working for the corporation, ... anyhow it isn't working the law-enforcement must be controlled by the citizens and if a cop is an asshole then it should be easy to get rid of his ass.
Community Policing can work using the pre 1890's model, but CP post 1990's was all based on FBI control. All law enforcement MUST come from the community.
THINK GLOBAL, ACT LOCAL, POLICE LOCAL
The problem is 'local'. If there are no jobs to be found locally or housing is not affordable or the school system stinks, a family's gotta move, right? this displacement being repeated several times in a person's life in this globalized, dysfuntional world. So, it's kinda hard to return to the 'old' system you refer to. And of course that's not counting the new prison-military complex, and the introduction of FBI/CIA types in local police systems.
However, what might work is doing simple steps such as ensuring that members of essential professions (cops, nurses, teachers, firefighters, etc.) do live in the community (making it mandatory and providing the proper resources) so they can be made accountable (as you explain) to the taxpayers they serve while exercising their profession. If my understanding is correct, it would just be a matter of adding these professions to the list of politicians (no carpetbaggers allowed!)
I 100% concur. Look at this way, the mobility you speak of is largely a product of cheap-oil,
In the future, community's will more likely return, lastly our modern society where we farmed out all our jobs and everything made in china is over, it costs too much to ship the junk.
So we return to local community's self contained, its going to happen this way whether the GLOBAL POWER likes it or not,
Know your Cop, Know your Teacher, ... Know who these people are,
These days the POWER in most city's hire cops from far away, fresh out of combat in Iraq, and you have the bullshit we see on the streets. Cop's should come from the community, but 20+ years ago the FBI ... Changed everything so that DC could control local cops nation-wide.
I find this phenomenon inevitable: "In the future, community's will more likely return, lastly our modern society where we farmed out all our jobs and everything made in china is over, it costs too much to ship the junk." I love your slogan: Know your cop, Know your teacher, Know your ...
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No. Not OK.
More republicrat party crap.
That's what I call them too, 'Republicrats.' I'm sick of the 'one party, two party' system that we are faced with in the voting booth too...
Yes, and more of your, "We are the world, we are the children.....
Hell, you sing it:
There comes a time when we heed a certain call When the world must come together as one There are people dying And its time to lend a hand to life The greatest gift of all
We can't go on pretending day by day That someone, somehow will soon make a change We are all a part of Gods great big family And the truth, you know, Love is all we need
[Chorus] We are the world, we are the children We are the ones who make a brighter day So lets start giving There's a choice we're making We're saving our own lives Its true we'll make a better day Just you and me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne7fPpxAnuM
You can masturbate to it with your online revolution cadre. Just don't forget to vote. Otherwise, you don't exist.