Forum Post: The problem isnt political
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 11, 2011, 10:16 p.m. EST by Calypsophia
(74)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
The problem we face is money itself. We created it, and it rules us and our world. It's the only obstacle any of us really have. And people fear communism or socialism.. as if that's what a world without money means. Well it doesnt. It's dictators that cause the grief in other countries, and if you think that because of capitalism we are protected from the possibility of such a change you're dead wrong. It's our Constitution and Dec. of Independence that protect us. Such laws to follow could coincide with ANY monetary system. Especially a system designed to praise skill, knowledge, and invention for their own sake and reap material rewards for THAT and advancing because of THAT instead of monetary reward.
i disagree. money is an important tool.
ows from start has been democratic and all republicans do nothing but demonize the movement read the signs listen to the people and see tax rich get money out of politics end wars have never been backed by republicans tax cuts for middle class modernize roads and bridges invest in middle class not banking class by raising minimum wage thats the oocupy wall sreet message
I believe it is outdated and unnecessary.
not true. bartering an ipad for 200 loaves of bread is inefficient and unnecessary.
the vision I have is more like.. want an ipad? got a job or going to school? ok, here's an ipad.
if i work harder than you, i expect more pay than you. socialism does not allow this.
Who are you kidding?
oh, please find fault with my statement, or are you just being a b!tch
I find fault with what you say that with socialism you can work harder and longer than I and be paid the same....utter nonsense Have you spoken to people in Europe..France...Germany? Brazil?
ok, provide some material to your point!
no one is talking about socialism. in a moneyless system, you work harder than me, your contributions to society are bigger... everything is free anyway, so have a few months off work. your name can go up on a billboard if you want recognition for what you've done, but you're still on equal terms with everyone else.
Some basic rules of structure would have to be formed, but with I think only a subtle shift in mindset on what's truly important for everyone and the planet as a whole, I think it could be done, and it could be done well.
There will never be a Utopia.. but hell, we can do better than this!
If everything is free ... Why work ? ... If someone else is willing to do the work and provide ... Why should I do anything ... Oh wait that is what we have no with the top 10% paying 70% of the taxes ...
Senate republicans commit treason by killing 2 million jobs yesterday
Of course it's political and of course we are responsible for not putting an end to this plutocratic oligarchy.
It is about time we got off of our collective asses and put an end to it. Occupy has only just begun...the snowball has just barely started rolling down the mountain.
Just don't quit before the miracle happens
money is the abstraction of value to trade. as much as it may pain you to hear it…we aren't all equal. some are taller, some are fatter, some are better at things than others. and whatever is needed at that moment…has greater value. that is why someone who knows how to make steel is worth more than someone who labors in the plant. its not about their value as a person, but the value of their trade. it is a highlyvolatile and dynamic system, which ultimately is much fairer than anything managed centrally because a central system will perpetuate what it knows, rather than take on something new.
and those dinosaurs from cuny who are attempting to advise this movement …ask yourself what they get out of it. because when it comes to the psc-cuny socialists, their belief is that all pigs are equaal….but some pigs are more equal than others.
Close, but not quite. Money itself isn't the problem, but yes, the problem is more economic than political. The disparity of wealth is getting worse. Just a few years ago, the bottom 50% controlled 4% of the wealth. Now, it's under 2.5%. This drop has been going on since the 1970s.
What's happening is that businesses are increasing the poverty rate. They are paying more and more people wages below the poverty line, and fewer and fewer people above. They are effectively shipping money from the working class to the 1%.
What is needed is a different set of wage laws. Instead of a minimum wage system, or traditional living wage system, a wage system that effectively neutralizes this sort of exploitation WITHOUT destroying the fundamental, capitalistic ideas on which our economy operates. (We don't need a repeat of the asinine, communistic ideas that have consistently failed throughout the world)
So what do we do? We prohibit all medium and large businesses from increasing the regional poverty rate through their hiring practices. If a region has a 10% poverty rate, the businesses in that region are ALL required to pay at least 90% of their workers at or above the poverty line.
What this does is cut off the siphon of money from the 99% to the 1%. Profits earned will come from effective business management, not through theft and exploitation.
This also provides incentives for business investment in impoverished areas - the manpower costs in such areas will initially be significantly lower due to the high poverty rates, but business investment tends to turn that around.
the irony here is that all of the push to bring prosperity to the entire world has helped to open up the pool of unskilled labor, with which the bottom 50% competes. Much of the top 20% is highly skilled and while many of their wages have dropped in competition with the new markets, the drop hasnt been as precipitous.
Are you going to distinguish between terribly implemented forms of money, aka. our debt as money system applied by the federal reserve, European central bank, etc, or a well implemented money system, like the Ithaca hours system, gold/silver standard, or commodity based money?
I think that's the real issue here.
I'm talking about currency. Dont care what it is. not sure if that's exactly what you asked tho... :)
Well, our current money system is based on this.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/internet-teach-in-money-as-debt-by-paul-grignon/
I posted an internet "teach in" on how our money system, which is based on debt, actually works. Reason why is because money, when used in it's original tool, aka a store of value and a method of exchange, actually works properly. We're in a really really screwed up money system where money is a value of debt, not a store of value, that we use to exchange. It fundamentally changes how money is used and applied.
The video is 45 minutes long, but easy to understand.
huh... interesting. well there.. see? the system is so screwed it's collapsing in on us. now I'm more convinced than ever it needs to go.
Let me tell you, no matter how you or anyone else feels about it, at the rate the basketcase we call Europe is collapsing, it's going to naturally go into the dustbin of history.
Problem is, how far do we need to step aside so it doesn't kill us in the process.
The problem is fear. We are afraid of equality and of ourselves.
Technology is the impetus for the dawning of the new era. For the first time all of humanity can instantaneously communicate on a global scale. We can control our birth rate with the use of safe effective birth control. We have the resources to feed and house the world’s population. Most all human suffering is manmade or worsened by greed and lack of empathy. Technology has also given us the ability choose our destiny. We can continue the current trajectory: depletion of resources, growing inequalities and war. Or, we can choose a new way.
The path to enlightenment, equality, and sustenance is attainable with a united movement. Part of that movement is time bank. Time bank is a network of humanity. Organized on line. Completely transparent. All inclusive. Hour in. Hour out. That’s it. No person’s hour is more or less valuable than another.
A worldwide time bank can be started now. With enough participation it can catalyze the transition from the current corrupt monetary system to a society where money is irrelevant and each person is valued. Fear and greed will paralyze this movement. Hope and imagination can propel it.
Time is the Substance from which I am made. – Jorge Luis Borges
I'm in full agreement.
You are dreaming if you think OWS will remove capitalism from America. The problem is very much "political." And the way to solve all of the problems delineated in OWS' statement of purpose is to elect people who are not mired in the political status quo. That, nevertheless, is still politics.
it's not just capitalism that needs to go.. its the monetary system PERIOD. nothing we've ever done before in the thousands of years of our existence has fixed the problem of rich vs poor. NOTHING. It's time to do what hasnt been done before.
and actually, my thoughts are kinda still capitalistic... because you can still rise. you could be rewarded elsewise. in a world where everything is free, all you really need is time.
Fail.
Bad Cop No Donut !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is not the physicial "thing", such a money that appears to be the problem, but the human reaction to possessing the item. The issue is the soul. The feeling and possessions that having the money can give you. How do you express and convience some one who uses money as a replacement for feeling good about themselves to use it wisely for the humanity as a whole rather than in pursuit of their own reality and pleasure. It is like an addiction. They need more and more in order to get their fix and are scared to lose it and that feeling. What is the replacement "drug" for greed, power and corruption? I think it could be removing the fear which rules us and replacing it with joy and love of each other, the understanding that your soul and inspirations will benefits greater by doing what is the best interest of the whole rather than for yourself or only those that are in your perceived social class. (Read about Ghandi, the master of peaceful protests - just some of those traits will transform you into a better person)
It is not the physicial "thing", such a money that appears to be the problem, but the human reaction to possessing the item. The issue is the soul. The feeling and possessions that having the money can give you. How do you express and convience some one who uses money as a replacement for feeling good about themselves to use it wisely for the humanity as a whole rather than in pursuit of their own reality and pleasure. It is like an addiction. They need more and more in order to get their fix and are scared to lose it and that feeling. What is the replacement "drug" for greed, power and corruption? I think it could be removing the fear which rules us and replacing it with joy and love of each other, the understanding that your soul and inspirations will benefits greater by doing what is the best interest of the whole rather than for yourself or only those that are in your perceived social class. (Read about Ghandi, the master of peaceful protests - just some of those traits will transform you into a better person)
You are correct, people have bad in them as well as good. It's all in the soul, for lack of a better word. A monetary system encourages the negative. A different system could encourage more of the good to come out in people. If people could obtain those material things they desire WITHOUT money.. just by having a job or going to school would give such positive motivation. Eventually, our values will shift.. perhaps even spiritually.
How can you consider a system without money? How would you go about regulating the distribution of goods and services? This lack of sophistication within the movement will be its' downfall.
how can anyone NOT consider it? Money isnt something passed down to us from god saying "Ye must use this!" No. Why is it supposed that the way we did things in the past is how they're always to be done? People who lived in a feudal system thought that's how it always was and how it always would be for a LONG time. Then they changed it. People arent perfect, but I think the issue of money is the reason why individuals and companies arent better than they are.
So how would you regulate the distribution of goods and services? And you can't just take the cop out answer and say that the government/npo/or community group would distribute it, because we all know that doesn't work.
well, I'm thinking on a global scale. bring 3rd world countries up to par, and yeah logistics would have to be considered. But it could be done. Hell, without money we could build greenhouses for food in areas that can't grow their own.. one thing we're good at is altering the environment to suit our needs.
Personally, I'd rather be free (monetarily free) to pursue what fields I find interest in and serve my community (locally or globally) for free to earn what I need, rather than sacrifice all my time and energy just making money for someone else... or even just for the sake of making money. Life is real empty this way. No one appreciates anything except money.. or at least, that's what is appreciated the most. It's horrible.
Right but what if your field of interest is smoking pot and eating Cheetos? Who will take care of you? How would you be contributing to the greater good then? Just because you don't like the corporate/consumer culture doesn't mean the monetary system is evil, it is a matter of personal choice and lifestyle that dictates what you do with money. And if you don't want to sacrifice your time to make money from someone else, start your own business. I know plenty of people that run their own business and contribute a great deal to their community and the globe. Blanket statements like money is bad is no way to look at things.
Okay. Abolishing money would be political, but whatever.
A means of exchange is a good thing and the only way a civilized society can function, more or less. You just make this movement look stupid by suggesting idiotic things like that.
it's not idiotic. and it would be more than political. how is a society that makes medicine that's too expensive for most people to afford civilized? how are muggings, car theft, and identity theft civilized? how are wars over oil and other resources civilized? We are becoming less functioning as time goes on and we're going to destroy ourselves and the rest of the planet with it.
What does this have to do with the abolition of money? Even the Soviet Union did not abolish money, nor did it ever really contemplate doing so.
all of those crimes mentioned are money related crimes.... odd question. really makes me curious as to what comment was deleted.
And, so what? That's like saying we should outlaw air because bank CEOs breathe it.
I deleted the comment because I made the same comment twice.
lol no.. air is natural. money is not. nooo comparison there, I'm sorry. that's really part of my logic. if we can come up with the concept of money, we can surely come up with something better.. like... not thinking on a selfish level.
We have a LOT in this world. so many advances, new technologies, medicines... if ANY of that is going to truly work to our advantage we need to stop making 'how much it costs' an issue. We need to get out of this me me me mind set. With all the abundance in this world, greed wouldnt be an issue without money. if it was readily available without it.
Distributing things socially does not require the abolition of money. Most of Europe has socialized medicine; they have not abolished money.
How exactly do you expect normal, everyday interactions to go by without a medium of exchange? Will all goods be distributed by the government, with citizens having no say in what goods they received?
As I said, the Soviet Union, a socialist republic, did not abolish money or wages.
Have you studied anything even remotely related to economics or history?
[Deleted]
It's late and I'm going to bed now. Just wanted to give some food for thought.
the government has enabled the corporations to do their dirty work as opposed to corrupting them. It is surely political.
many corporations wouldnt exist without money. and those that remained would be truly for the community.
The constitution was written to be corrupted. I will say it a million more times, we cannot rely on the ideologies of dead men. We must create new solutions using the new tools and resources we have created ourselves in this world. Their world, like their bodies, are dead. Their solutions will not fit as our solutions.
you're right, as the country grows and changes so must it's foundations be inspected. however, it's the best thing there is in existence as a free way of life there is. I do feel fortunate to have been born here.
the idea of a moneyless society with the freedoms we enjoy would be a new solution.
Some of your problems are indeed political, because your opponents are using the political process against you. Please take a look at the Rolling Stone article that I cited in this post:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/vote-or-else-this-will-all-be-a-pointless-exercise/
I don't know, if we are to realize what the definition of all governments in the list of categorical explanations, in finding the answer one must first put them all up on the same page, as defined, because if there is to be a show of hands, maybe we suffer the indignity of certain people who vainly envy the mindless control over millions of fascism ( fas·cism/ˈfaSHizəm/ Noun:An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. (in general use) Extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice). Because It sure sounds like it.
Something on moving beyond money: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vK-M_e0JoY "This video presents a simplified education model about socioeconomics and technological change. It discusses five interwoven economies (subsistence, gift, exchange, planned, and theft) and how the balance will shift with cultural changes and technological changes. It suggests that things like a basic income, better planning, improved subsistence, and an expanded gift economy can compensate in part for an exchange economy that is having problems."
that's cool. you can also check out communityplanet.org, and look up the Venus Project. :)
Thanks for the community planet link. Great vision there of communities that have a health discussion process going on.
The Venus Project is also interesting, but a bit too technocratic for my liking because it assumes political problems can be just solved by some technologists programming a computer and without continuous ongoing dialog among people about values and priorities (even though I respect Jacques Fresco and Roxanne Meadows for their vision).
So the reason I like the first a lot is why I have reservations about the second (as inspirational as the Venus Project is technologically).
We didn't create money. We just support it's imaginary value because we are scared of being imprisoned or killed like all the people in other countries are by our Masters. It's what they do. They keep us quiet and frightened in exchange for extra credits to spend at the company store while they literally kill millions and plan for our own murders and imprisonment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hobDCtmx0xo&feature=player_embedded&skipcontrinter=1 DEMAND PEACE NOW. This "collapse" is engineered as a pretext for WWIII. We now have more people per capita imprisoned than NORTH KOREA. WE ARE IN A PRISON CAMP.
Yes, actually we did create money. initially based on the gold standard. gold is a rock. a solid, tangible substance. it's pretty. people like to wear it. it gives them status.. that's fine. but put a monetary value on it and suddenly the same, unchanged pretty rock is worth more or less than it was yesterday. sorry, but this is a man-made system. You will not find 'currency' used anywhere else in the natural world. Anyone telling you otherwise is afraid of losing power over you.
gold is valuable because of its rarity, that is how the value of commodities is determined. Not because it is pretty. That is why platinum or uranium are more valuable than gold.
do you think that if it was rare and ugly it would be worth the same? the point is we created the system. it's the system that's flawed. and honestly, it doesnt seem so rare to me, tho you're probably right.
Yes it is a man-made system enforced through violence and domination. I did not create money. Our ruthless masters did. They have no problem with reform They can eternally print as much as you'd like. But do not threaten their violent domination with solidarity and PEACE. Then you will be murdered or imprisoned. Take your Moral Authority and DEMAND PEACE. Do not support this rotten, diseased system anymore. It is suicidal. Peace is Prosperity.
Could you imagine if Martin Luther in the 1500's had said 'it's too hard to change the church'?
you hit it on target.its the money that's corrupting people high and low. People will sell themselves for a buck....why is that?
because by nature man has a sense of greed, of self-seeking. a natural instinct. we all have it more or less. and money can become anything. and since money is the only obstacle we have to getting the things we're greedy for, then there will be some people who would be willing to do anything to get it. that's why.
is there a way to take away the greed?
no. but it can be lessened. it's a fact that where one thing exists so too must it's opposite. that means where there is good there is bound to be some bad. right now there seems to be more bad in the world. that's because monetary systems are breeding grounds for greed, self-interest motivated behavior. but I do think its possible to put a system in place that encourages more of the good side of man.. because it is there too. :)
it's not a natural instinct.
It's a systemic instinct. The societal system produces this flaw in people, and perpetuates it.
I think a monetary system (which can dictate the social system) facilitates and perpetuates it.
how do you do that without breaking the documents you cite? the reason I ask is because you'd have to force people to do things, or not do things
oh, and I'm not citing any documents.
yes you did, the constitution and the dec. of ind.
ok fine. you got me. I was tired. :)
ok fine. you got me. I was tired. :)
what if all you had to do to have a home, food, entertainment, healthcare, etc is to have a job or to be going to school to learn a trade or skill to contribute to your community? no money involved, school free, just put into the community on a local, state, or national level.
well what if someone wants to make money, get rich? get powerful? they aren't allowed? who'll stop em? you'd have to make gold and silver illegal
no, you'd have to make currency illegal. heh, why the need for money if everything is free? do you think ipods would just disappear? or they'd stop making them? no, they are technical contributions to society for entertainment. if you work, you can have one. if money didnt get you your material goody's why on earth would you want it?
lol so gold and silver will be illegal? just as I thought. that goes against the constitution,
no. If nobody respected their collected earnings in gold and silver, this person would just be seen as an eccentric collector. Like someone who collects butterflies, or stamps. They wouldn't gain any power from it.
so how will you get men to not value gold or silver? are you going to take it all away and "keep it safe" for us?
anyone with a lot of money will have a lot of power because there will always be those people willing to sell their soul for material wealth
the thing is, you wouldn't have to make money illegal. Just irrelevant.
Kind of like how the internet has made libraries irrelevant. It doesn't stop the libraries being there, if people want to use them.
Tell me what the use of money or material wealth is if everybody was able to access anything they wanted at any time? You'd be regarded as an eccentric collector for stockpiling gold and silver, while everyone else would be putting it to use (like to create circuit boards, and engine parts, and other useful things of it rather than childish decorations.)
oh, I'm not going to do anything. but really, this is what's gotta be done. one person cant do it alone. you know bankers have been quoted talking about how the people would revolt if they knew how the banking system really worked? Henry Ford said it, and so did some bankers in London in the 1800s.
I just truly think everyone is barking up the wrong tree.
Utilize technology to the best of our ability to do all the crap we don't want to do.
We rely on technology today in all aspects of modern life but we've never applied it on a mass scale to create a sustainable and abundant society.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
how haven't we? lol food, roads etc etc
Nope, money impedes technology.
Whatever is most profitable is implemented. This is a big reason we still rely on petroleum and coal for most of our energy consumption. This is why so many pill therapies are pushed for health issues. It is also why your car and electronics require alot of maintenance and get replaced often.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2KLyYKJGk0
The business cycle requires products to be designed with a lifetime so consumers keep coming back to buy stuff. In otherwords products are purposely designed to be inferior in many cases to what is possible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTdseBKbWAE
We also have automation and cybernation technologies currently which can release people from many of the repetitive jobs they occupy. This would destroy the economy if implemented on a mass scale. This technological unemployment, as it's called, ironically also creates abundance because it is more efficient than human capabilities. (think computer kiosks, automobile production, ATMs, and even in war now with combat drones)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBkFeA2pOQY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joWD5vQvkfk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Jd1mzi_AUY&feature=related
So we have the technologies available but we aren't using them specifically to create sustainable abundance in society.
yes! thank you genanmer. why make machines that do the work of man, when man depends on a paycheck? machines were meant to make life easier.. but how is that so if they take the place of the jobs people depend on? it doesnt make sense to keep this system anymore.
I agree. But we have a consumer culture here and we are so focused on money and 'things'. People would rather buy a new IPad than spend time with their families. The first thing we ask a stranger is what is their job.
But it's too hard to change a culture.
Tribal Africa is not money centered and noone there seems to be better off or prospering because of that fact. Just a little food for thought. ;)
Well, there was a time when money was practical. it helped when it came to trading. but with all the skills, knowledge, technology that we have now.. there is enough food in the world for everyone.. and the technology to make more.. the only thing that seems to be in the way of this progress being useful to most people is money! Places like Africa, Indonesia, Haiti.. could want for nothing. :)
I think that resources are more finite than you think. There may be enough for all to receive the bare minimum, but in America if you have change in your pocket you are among the top 8% of wealth in the world. Would you want to get by on tribal portions? If you "level the playing field" usa is going to take the biggest hit in standard of living. I fear that will be more culture shock than what most americans would survive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV9CCxdkOng
Use that ^ sort of technology within skyscrapers and you have a much smaller area supporting a very large population. Do this kind of thing in excess and you have an abundance of food.
We need to begin applying technology to the way we live rather than relying on money and politics to determine what is best.
Scientific method > opinion because it tests before implementing. It checks for mistakes before they occur. Votes/ money apply their decisions first, then wait for errors to occur before fixing them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
there would be no need for oil for most things. we have the technology for clean reusable energy. money is the only obstacle. without a monetary value, a diamond will still be pretty, but not as sought out. and all this technology could be shared with EVERYone.
They are still yet to design a vehicle that can go more than a hundred miles without the need for recharging. I don't think the technology is quite there yet.
that's no standard of measure in my opinion :)
What is?
all the medications to cure disease that is there, but no one can afford or other countries dont have. we could build greenhouses for crops in places that are arid, we have the resources for clean reusable energy (instead of raping the earth for oil). Imagine all competing companies conglomerating and creating superior products.. with quality unhindered by cost! it's not only what we have now that's the standard, but what is possible to do with what we have now.
oil is for gasoline, which is for automobiles. lack of technology to drive more than a hundred miles means we don't have effecient reusable energy to replace oil as of yet. solar and wind as opposed to coal is what i think you mean, but it didn't turn out too well for solyndra even with our tax payer money.
I bet you that if it wasnt for money, we could all have high speed, clean energy cars, with great safety features and reliability.
Solyndra is a perfect example! it went down for financial reasons!!! not because it doesnt have the technology!
Money has driven the research which has brought us to where we are technologically. Solyndra got a ton of money from the president, the reason it failed was because it was a scam owned by nancy pelosi's brother in law, and it was a way to embezzle taxpayers money.
Money will eventually be eliminated by vast productivity improvements which will eventually reduce prices to zero. For example, the 99%, as Home Town Banks of 65,000 Members, can divide themselves into 16,384 Vehicle Investment Groups of 4 Members, with each group of 4 Members purchasing a hybrid-diesel-hummer-limo Cab which they then put into their Town Cab Fleet of 16,384 Cabs. Why? Because this would reduce their Individual Transportation Costs by 75% (Cost of 1 Cab / 4 Members = 75% less cost per member), and yet they would have a Luxury Limo Cab available to them, out of 16,000 cabs in their Town, five minutes after calling for one, but not necessarily the specific luxury cab they own 25% in. This 75% reduction in Individual Transportation Costs -- for everyone -- reduces transportation prices by 75%, and thus money, by 75% (and let's not forget the lessening of Mother Nature's burden from having 75% fewer cars with no traffic jams). Furthermore, the list of simple productivity improvement like this one -- which the 99% want but the 1% don't want -- are endless. But first, the 99% must control the banks before the can control societal design in this manner which is less costly (in terms of hours worker to maintain it) and yet having greater luxury (such as a limo cab). Consequently, to decentralize banking is to lower cost is to lower price is to lower the existence of money.
To do this, we need a comprehensive strategy, and related candidate, that implements all our demands at the same time, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management System of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to be 1 of 100,000 people needed to support a Presidential Candidate – such as myself – at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.