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Forum Post: Why Occupy Wall Street Could Go The Way Of Justin Bieber.........

Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 4, 2011, 2:49 a.m. EST by puff6962 (4052)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

What does OWS have in common with Justin Bieber? Well, in many ways, this movement is modeled along similar lines as the internet. It is leaderless, faceless, outsourced, and....most important....lacking a filter for it's ideas.

Google made the web navigable, but it did not remove the great excess of irrelevant information that tends pollute desired knowledge.

You see, in the age of the internet, we are all somewhat equal and anonymous. A blogger can compete on par with a veteran reporter from the New York Times. While, at first glance, this may not seem so bad.....it has been disastrous for our society in terms of public discourse.

That doesn't seem clear? Maybe this will help.....WHY DOES ROCK MUSIC TODAY SUCK SO BAD? The answer, is the internet.

In the old days, kids actually had hobbies and many played instruments. These kids reached puberty, got horny, and decided that being in a rock band might make life a little better. These local bands played gigs....the best performers sought out the other best performers....a new band was formed....they rehearsed and rehearsed.....got noticed....bigger gigs....and then they went on to their big break. An album was cut.....it got played.....people bought more.....the guys got rich (and laid).....and this encouraged all those pups in the lower rungs to keep trying.

So, the reason ROCK SUCKS today is that there is no base of talent, there is no filtering of this talent, and online sharing decimated the financial and sexual carrots which inspired many of these guys.

In decision theory, filters are referred to in terms of a signal / noise relationship. With the internet, and your movement, it can be very difficult for people to find the best information and to build upon it. There is simply too much noise.....and too many people not smart enough to tell the difference.

This faceless, directionless, amorphous, and leaderless group has, then, what I would term "The Internet Problem." The world is at your fingertips, on your screen, but you cannot find it because there is simply too much noise and too little filtering of thought.

Forty years ago, a movement like this would have had a number of prominent speakers. You would have coalesced around objectives, and some set of plans would be laid. Those who seemed knowledgeable would be asked to run for necessary posts. A vote would be held. The cause solidified and responsible spokespersons gave a face to the movement's viability. The objectives found traction and the ideas spread. Soon, your little movement could change the world.

What we've lost in America and in OWS is a filter....one that breeds talent, inherently sorts and promotes expertise, and one that rewards its participants for their efforts. What we are left with is the death of the American experiment in meritocracy and a lot of NOISE.

A plan to have no plan is not a plan. A leaderless movement becomes, over time, just a group of anarchists waiting for a spark to do bad things. You should avoid this trap now.

My advice....Each Occupy group should immediately vote five member advisory committees. These five will then begin meetings where the issues facing each group are discussed, speakers and objectives are set, and tactics are devised. All major decisions should, of course, be given a general vote (most importantly, a code of conduct should be decided upon and circulated to all participants immediately). Liaisons to the press, to labor, to sympathetic politicians, to consumer advocacy groups, to church groups, and etc. should develop and.......using a filter.....you might have a chance at actually doing some good.

Otherwise, you are just a Justin Bieber with 15 minutes of fame. You will become martyrs and an echo in the noise or history.

140 Comments

140 Comments


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[-] 2 points by tomcat68 (298) 13 years ago

now be fair.
Puberty ruined boobers career and the majority of protestors have grown past that.

at least physically.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

Puberty may ruin the career of OWS as well....that, and winter.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

You mean he's been around for more than the past month?

[-] 2 points by moediggity (646) from Houston, TX 13 years ago

No the reason why music sucks is because of clear channel,the federal government and the music industry parasites.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Yes, but if you could have seen what was going to happen to the music industry, but you would have to unite in order to preserve what was great, would you cling to anarchy and voiceless noise or would you unite behind a worthy cause?

[-] 1 points by moediggity (646) from Houston, TX 13 years ago

Dude, people were saying that the industry was going to die since the end of the 70's so for people like me, I totally welcome the utter and full on demise of the parasitic,manipulative "music industry". And yeah, there is a movement against these bastards...its called the underground. Also,there is no such thing as a musical leader. Music isn't something that can be explained by using words like anarchy,capitalism,socialism etc. Music is all encompassing.Music is literally everywhere. Music is something that you can literally make out of nothing.For too long,we have become slaves to the top 40 nazis that have ruined the once great medium that was radio. Go to your local clubs,venues,open mic nights,thats where you find the resistance.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Horseshit. There are only a handful of bands today that would have been qualified to open for Boy George. It's that bad.

[-] 1 points by moediggity (646) from Houston, TX 13 years ago

Dude, boy george fucking sucks and no self respecting band or artist would be caught dead with him! Also, todays mainstream music sucks and thats why there is a badass underground now.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

But that is my point....there is a vibrant underground because there is no system for these guys to get a widespread audience.....there is no filter.

The results are the Justin whatever his name is and the Beyonce's, etc. who have made me fear searching the radio.

And don't get me started on Rap....or country....The other day, I heard a country rap song. Do you know what that is..... Cou--Rap.... CRAP.

Boy George was God. Na....I was just kidding with that example.

[-] 1 points by moediggity (646) from Houston, TX 13 years ago

But we don't need to have radio constantly play our songs. Take flogging molly for instance or punk rock for that matter. No not that sum 41 or blink 183 gay shit, I'm talking about nofx and bad religion and fear.

[-] 1 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

They don't play your songs because the filter mechanism is gone......gone.

I mean, shit, I'm watching "Joe Dirt" right now because we have 1200 channels but there is literally nothing good on.

[-] 1 points by moediggity (646) from Houston, TX 12 years ago

lol yeah!

[-] 1 points by Edgewaters (912) 12 years ago
  • WHY DOES ROCK MUSIC TODAY SUCK SO BAD? The answer, is the internet. In the old days, kids actually had hobbies and many played instruments. These kids reached puberty, got horny, and decided that being in a rock band might make life a little better. These local bands played gigs....the best performers sought out the other best performers....a new band was formed....they rehearsed and rehearsed.....got noticed....bigger gigs....and then they went on to their big break. An album was cut.....it got played.....people bought more.....the guys got rich (and laid).....and this encouraged all those pups in the lower rungs to keep trying. So, the reason ROCK SUCKS today is that there is no base of talent, there is no filtering of this talent, and online sharing decimated the financial and sexual carrots which inspired many of these guys.*

I couldn't disagree more. Rock started to suck long, long before the internet - precisely because it had become about nothing more than the "financial and sexual carrots" you mention. Who is a better doctor: the guy who went to med school because he wanted to make lots of money, or the guy who went to med school because he was genuinely interested in medicine?

It was excessive commercialization that killed rock and roll. It started to suck pretty bad in the 80s, had a brief resurgence in the 90s (mainly due to a wave of good bands that weren't commercialized), then that too was commercialized and branded as "alternative rock" and, no surprise, promptly started to suck again. It wasn't the internet that killed rock, it was MTV.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

Rock, like a spent mine, ran out of new veins during the 1990's.......but there were still very talented musicians who just couldn't find a new voice. Now there are new voices without much talent. MTV made Rock into a visual experience and this hid, for a time, that the mine had become spent. But, the internet simply blew up the mine so that a billion little rocks could be combed over for a fleck of silver.

[-] 1 points by gutcheck5484 (4) 12 years ago

You are in the wrong place. You need to go to Congress and press them about this 'insider trading' corruption. They are the power, they steal the money. If you really want to accomplish anything you have to go after them!!!!

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

What am I supposed to do?

Why doesn't the movement focus it energies on "GetMoneyOut," Dylan Ratigan's initiative.

http://www.getmoneyout.com/

If you take big money out of the equation, then you are half-way back to a sane America.

[-] 1 points by JohnmcHD (16) from Chandler, AZ 12 years ago

Maybe Justin Bieber will still be around after you, he is pretty young HeHe ! so will OWS ! YEAH !!

[-] 1 points by JohnmcHD (16) from Chandler, AZ 12 years ago

Just a guy who likes to type a lot without thinking, sleep it off, then wake up !

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

And you are just a little spunkmonkey who has been asleep your entire life.

Go on living a life that a sheep could navigate just as well.

[-] 1 points by JohnmcHD (16) from Chandler, AZ 12 years ago

no thanks, i don't spunkmonkey like you, but you are a person who pretends to himself that u are somewhat intelligent, because you really know u r not u have your opinion and it is dumb, but u are entitled to that' thanks for trying :) BTW I don't even think u r American at all we don't say "spunkmonkey" so worry about your own country ok ?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

Ya, I remember my first beer.

[-] 1 points by Windsurf (2) 13 years ago

The reason Rocks sucks is because corporate interests took control of radio and only put on "commercial hits" rather than left it up to the DJ who would introduce new groups and sounds in different markets that eventually caught on. Don't blame the musicians blame the corporate structure. Today YouTube has democratized the music business so all sorts of music has a chance to catch on and be popular.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

No, just the opposite. Corporations had an interest in promoting the best talent. That had broad latitude in defining quality from crap and, with few exceptions, great bands did great things.

Today, there is no such mechanism for discovery and development of talent....and, honestly, your generation does not have the fidelity to the creation of music that was evident in the past. Fewer kids actually play REAL instruments. You're too busy texting or playing guitar hero.

Sorry. But that's reality.

[-] 1 points by SnorkelSpy (5) 13 years ago

If a leader would rise up and give direction to this movement, then I would give it legitimacy, there are things I like about this movement that are shattered when I see protesters act like complete fools and vandalize, or instigate a confrontation with the police. Yes, CEOs giving themselves bonuses after being bailed out is wrong, no, you are not entitled to have riches. Too bad the freeloaders who think they are entitled to crap are the loudest.

[-] 1 points by JohnmcHD (16) from Chandler, AZ 12 years ago

Get a clue snorker would ya hahh !

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Learn the lessons of the Civil Right's Movement.

The target of your protests, marches, interruptions, etc. ARE YOUR MESSAGE.

Dress up and look professional. Looking like vagrant hippies will only appeal to other vagrant hippies.

Avoid police confrontations until the police choose force for a seemingly minor infraction. IF YOU BLOCK A BRIDGE, you look like anarchists and the police have a right to stop you. If you are removed from the front lobby of FOX NEWS without conflict, THEN YOU HAVE MADE A STATEMENT. Better yet, if you are roughed up on the steps to Fox News, then you make the police appear in league with the Republican establishment.

You have to earn public sympathy, not public scorn.

This Bridge thing is a really stupid idea.

[-] 1 points by dildo (5) 13 years ago

I want a taste of that sweet beaver

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

As in "Leave it to Beaver?"

[-] 1 points by dildo (5) 13 years ago

your not naive u know what I meant

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 13 years ago

Wow, you miss the whole point here. The music feild is better today because you can find and listen to what ever you like, no filters. Corporate media push their products like Bieber to sheep. Don't be a sheep, and find what you like the choices now are limitless. OWS is a more advanced movement that any before it, for the same reason, no filters. Ideas that are great rise to popular support and become the movement. There are so many articulate voices clearly enunciating the OWS positions, that you can not possibly take them all in! Personally I like Naomi Klein, Chris Hedges, and Michael Moore. These people have been speaking out and writing amazing and detailed position analysis since this movement began.

Why would you long for the days of gate-keepers and filters to limit the dialog. "Official" leaders get killed in America. Official positions, limit the focus. It takes all of us pushing together to make the change we want to see.

[-] -1 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

You are confusing being able to easily access the greatness of the past with a current crop of greatness.

You would confuse someone's ability to look up something instantaneously on Google with someone having an original idea of their own.

You are wallering in your confusion of the difference.

The web has not enriched the world, or saved it from corporate hacks, the web has destroyed the incubators of talent. It has led to kids spending hours a day uselessly updating their facebook page or texting one another.......instead of reading a book or pursuing a hobby.

You guys aren't even good admirers of talent. You can't imagine the knowledge or dedication to music in the 1970's and 1980's by those who couldn't play a tune.

It is no accident that Justin Bieber, Beyonce, J whatever his dumbass name is, or Kinney Chesney are perceived talents in this age......it is because your generation has developed none of your own.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 13 years ago

Get over the past, and your ageist attacks on the young. There is more great NEW music today than at any point in human history.

http://exclaim.ca/ great music reporting,. http://www.rollingstone.com/music more,. http://www.nme.com/ even more,. ..

[-] 1 points by kcsapper (12) from Pleasant Hill, MO 13 years ago

To borrow from the past..."It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." - Samuel Clemens

[-] -1 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Ya, and IT SUCKS.....or it's just borrowing from the greatness of the past.

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

Gate keepers and filters do not limit the dialog. They push it to a much higher level. They put the good stuff on a podium and leave the crap on the floor. That way, you lose a lot less time finding the good stuff. Without filters, half your life is wasted searching for a needle in a haystack.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 13 years ago

Just go to good sites to find good info. Suggesting;

http://www.truth-out.org/ a good general news site with much OWS coverage. http://thinkprogress.org/ as the name implies progressive leaning news. http://www.thenation.com/ more great OWs coverage.

http://wagingnonviolence.org/ news focusing on non-violent activism around the world. Obviously covering OWS.

There is really no need to "Elect" or appoint leaders and spokes people, this group self selects, the strong voices get coverage and are easy to find.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

I don't like the idea of non-violence. I like the idea of peace.

The problem is, direct democracy can easily be controlled via various tactics so that leaders can act as puppets in the background. This is already happening with Occupy and is very obvious.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 13 years ago

Non-violence is a tactic of direct action, peace is a state of harmony without violence. You can not wage peace, however you can wage non-violent direct action to achieve peace.

Leading direct democracy is like herding cats. The strongest ideas that appeal to the largest group rise up in that system.

Obvious how?

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

Direct democracy can be co-opted like any other system. The anarchists that put it in place already have corrupted it. The whole setup of Occupy espouses their ideology and none other. There is no other way the anarcho-communist discourse and marketing imagery could always prevail above the rest unless they had a tight control over the outcomes of consensus. Here is a document detailing some of their tactics: http://commonstruggle.org/node/2570

Here is an excerpt of from this document. It explains one way of keeping other ideologies safely at bay:

One role as anarchists we can play is to be conscious of the informal leaders that develop and encourage them to become more anti-authoritarian than managers of struggle. There is great possibility that informal leaders could end up taking over the movements media outlets or over the general assemblies, in fact this has already happened in some places. We should not be afraid to hold people accountable for their actions and work with them to better themselves, and if not challenge their power.

Just like we should guard against the fetishization of individuals, we should make sure to guard against the fetishization of any one form of organizing. It is important in order to keep the autonomous and popular character of the movement. We help to do this by proposing that we have a diversity of assemblies instead of just one centralized general assembly. Anyone who has been to a meeting of more than 25 people know that it is impossible to really be heard. As anarchists decentralizing the assemblies is an obvious tactic to push for.

In the place of the main general assemblies as decision making bodies we can propose them as general meetups for report backs from the various assemblies, working groups, and autonomous initiatives. After all this is a movement not an organization.

Here are some links to discussion in which the anarchist organizers are discussing the problem of other ideologies taking over:

http://www.reddit.com/r/occupywallstreet/comments/ley00/best_plan_of_action_i_have_seen_yet_for_ows/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/lf5w1/does_this_on_roccupywallstreet_seem_like_bad_news/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/ldbjr/attention_anarchists_please_spend_some_time_in/

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 13 years ago

You are assuming here; "There is no other way (they) could always prevail above the rest unless they had a tight control over the outcomes of consensus." This is an opinion nothing more.

In my experience with consensus building, any authoritarian ideas fail naturally, as no one supports these but authoritarians, and they normally do not involve themselves in this type of work for that simple reason. Your quote works against your argument. It not only says; "Just like we should guard against the fetishization of individuals (leaders!), we should make sure to guard against the fetishization of any one form of organizing (ideology)." it also says "We should not be afraid to hold people accountable for their actions and work with them to better themselves..," when referring to people who would impose themselves as leaders.

I have absolutely no idea how you are reading this and coming to the opposite of its meaning. The passage is about stopping would-be leaders from taking power from the larger group.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

The way to read this text is to understand from which ideology it is being penned. By definition, anarchists do not want leaders because this would create an hierarchy. We must also note that any system other than an anarchy is by definition an hierarchy.

The text linked above was written by an anarchic thinker who wishes to impose his vision upon the movement. He outlines how consensus building and direct democracy should be handled. He warns us to guard ourselves against the fetishization of the ideology of a particular individual, or of particular groups within the movement. He goes as far as to say that we should hold these individuals or groups accountable. Ironically, he has himself espoused a specific ideology and acted as a leader by sharing his vision through a guiding text instead of a general assembly.

Direct democracy poses an interesting dilemma, and this is the key that helps us read the anarchic text. For it to be a pure democratic system, truly the voice of all, we must be willing to acknowledge the fact that the consensus of the people could decide to abolish it. How ironic would it be if the consensus, itself the child of direct democracy, decided to replace it with a republic or another form of hierarchy? Ironic, but any less democratic? It would seem direct democracy can only be true democracy if is it not forced to remain in place; if it is considered potentially temporary, and not absolutely permanent. Could we not then say that our anarchic writer is co-opting and/or corrupting direct democracy with his attempt to force it to remain the permanent decisional process of Occupy? Doesn't there always come a time when a mother must let her child run free, even if it means never seeing her child again?

The anarchists want to keep the structure of direct democracy in place at all costs. This is the way for them to control the movement and assure that their particular ideology continues to permeate throughout Occupy. It is not by chance that Occupy tastes like, looks like, smells like, and acts like anarchic-communism. Unless it is accepted that direct democracy can be replaced by consensus, then it will always remain so.

Leading direct democracy is like herding cats. The strongest ideas that appeal to the largest group rise up in that system.

  1. If the strongest idea that appeals to the largest group is the idea of abandoning direct democracy and adopting an hierarchic political structure like a republic, do you think it would be accepted?
  2. Do you believe the system of direct democracy should be forced to remain in place permanently even if the consensus decides against it?
  3. Why do anarchists insist that "we should make sure to guard against the fetishization of any one form of organizing (ideology)" when direct democracy, the form they espouse, is itself a particular from of organization?
  4. Should we guard against adopting a particular ideology even if the consensus decides to?
  5. Should we guard ourselves against the ideology of an anarchic leader who writes in a text that we should guard ourselves against "the fetishization of individuals (leaders!)"?
  6. If the consensus decides to elect a leader, should we refuse the decision because we must guard ourselves against leaders?
  7. Doesn't the form (direct democracy) affect the content (decisions made by direct democracy)?
  8. Doesn't any political structure (form) affect the type of decisions that flow from it (content)?
  9. Can content be separated from form?
  10. Isn't direct democracy already a particular ideology that was put in place by the anarchists at the very beginning of Occupy?
  11. Don't most of the ideas of Occupy come from the particular ideology of anarchy: occupying, direct democracy, general strikes, direct action, non-violence against violence, the prominent black color in advertising?
  12. Is Occupy a plurality of equal individuals with a plurality of equal ideologies converging through consensus, or is anarchy the favored ideology towering about the rest?
  13. What do you think is Occupy?
[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 13 years ago

"This #ows movement empowers real people to create real change from the bottom up. We want to see a general assembly in every backyard, on every street corner because we don't need Wall Street and we don't need politicians to build a better society."

I really think this sums it up. The movement is using a process of 'consensus decision-making', this is a non-hierarchical way to organize so all voices are heard an considered, the group moves forward when a consensus is reached. If you do not agree with this then voice your position. What you are saying is; "leaders can act as puppets in the background. This is already happening with Occupy and is very obvious." (I assume you mean puppet-masters.) then you show a document that shows tactics for countering individuals that may attempt to take leadership. Now if I understand you have a problem with keeping the movement leaderless?

To your points;

  1. I answered above "any authoritarian ideas fail naturally, as no one supports these but authoritarians"
  2. Same as 1 people tend not to give away their power, it is normally taken form them.
  3. because and ideology that is not horizontal is a power structure, and these are used to control and manipulate, for someone to lead, others must be made to follow, loosing their voices.
  4. Again same as 1. and 2.
  5. There is no logic here, the "anarchic leader" is arguing for no leader to begin with!
  6. More repetition, see 1,2, and 4.
  7. Yes, we get to address the issues of all instead of the ruling 1%.
  8. Yes, see current corporate-controlled-state-capitalism system. Laws are made to address the issues of the wealthy and powerful, while shting on the rest of the people who have not say or power in that system.
  9. Sometimes, however mostly content rises from form, thus the desire to maintain the non-hierarchical form.
  10. Consensus decision-making is the most democratic of all organisational setups, this movement is democratic.
  11. The movement is a counter to the currently dominating system, so yes it is counter to what it is protesting, this follows logically.
[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

If direct democracy is forced to remain in place at all costs, then it means there is no true democracy. It means the people have no power to elect leaders if they want. It means they have no power to change the foundation of their political structure. It is a golden cage made by anarchists for anarchists. In truth, the people should have the power to decide together what they want without having their decisions fit a certain mold. Ideologies should be allowed to trump others if the consensus so decides. This is a big limit the anarchists are imposing. A limit that unfortunately turns me away from Occupy.

I don't have a problem with keeping the movement leaderless. I have a problem with keeping the movement leaderless even if the consensus decides against it. I have the problem with keeping direct democracy at all costs even if the consensus decides that it wants another system. It is an anarchic golden cage in which many possibilities are eliminated.

[-] 1 points by Keakevene (0) 13 years ago

"I am the 99" Occupy wall street theme song http://soundcloud.com/michael-ayers/i-am-the-99

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 13 years ago

this argument goes noise exist -> single does not

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

huh?

[-] 1 points by progressive (3) 13 years ago

Good observation. Remember when MTV played Dire Straits. Those were the days...

[-] 0 points by sppratam (-14) 13 years ago

Wait, MTV played music ???

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Who is MTV?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 13 years ago

Because it's corporate.

[-] 1 points by UPonLocal (309) 13 years ago

t is a lot of detail, a lot of knowledge of espionage, some tips... best I can do, done, is read all the material linked on the expose here http://uponlocal.com/up-on-local-media/content/operation-occupy-communications-center I dont spell out depopulation on the site, as I do not want a riot....Kalle also knows who I am and I enjoy wavin it in their face They are winding the planet down on us as best they can...and started wars now wherever they can...the riot crew is to tip the people over when they naturally start getting upset...before they react..the anarchists get riots down and drag down the cities.... Starvation and Disease They do not really want a system people can get organized on, so I started the Direct Democracy site a year ago....as a media site...then launched the Voting and Organizational tools as soon as they surfaced. Doing what we can to co-opt their efforts early

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Direct democracy has always been the means of a tyranny of the majority. What if 90% of the population wanted the other 10% to be slaves? That is democracy, not democracy for all by no means, but democracy.

Beware they tyranny of the majority. Just because 99.99999% of the population desires something, doesn't make it a good thing. I would have thought your mother would have taught you that.

[-] 1 points by UPonLocal (309) 13 years ago

that is why a direct democracy has veto powers to the elected.......it aint that direct..

[-] 0 points by electrictroy (282) 13 years ago

A better example is Socrates who was executed by a simple Democratic vote. His neighbors didn't like him, so they eliminated him.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Yes, but who remembers his neighbors?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

That is not exactly right. Socrates could have escaped his plight in more ways than one. He vexed the court by using it to express his views and opinions. He stuck by his guns and offered no remorse. After being condemned to drink the hemlock, he refused an easy escape, then chose suicide because he wanted to show respect for the system. I think it's important to note that he committed suicide and was not eliminated by force, as this is essentially the whole point of the story, that he respected the system enough to die for it.

But, essentially, you are right. A direct democracy leads to the tyranny of the majority. Had this system been used in America, we would never have seen the African-American liberation, women's liberation, etc...

[-] 0 points by electrictroy (282) 13 years ago

"He vexed the court by using it to express his views and opinions"

So? In OUR system his right to expression is protected (rule by law not a mob). The court would throw-away the case per the First Amendment.

Also he didn't "choose" suicide. They gave him a choice of death by poisoning or death by crucifixion. Either way - Socrates was Forced to die.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

He wasn't forced to die. He could easily have chosen exile. In his time, it was very common for people on death row to run away on exile. The jails would not stop them. It was even expected that they would do so. When Socrates was waiting in jail, he was not under lock and key. Crito visited him and proposed him to flee, but he refused. Read Crito for more information.

Here are some quotes on the court case, and on the idea to flee.

  • "Most scholars see the conviction and execution of Socrates as a deliberate choice made by the famous philosopher himself. If the accounts of Plato and Xenophon are reasonably accurate, Socrates sought not to persuade jurors, but rather to lecture and provoke them."

  • "I. F. Stone, an American journalist, wrote a book entitled "Trial of Socrates" after his retirement, arguing that Socrates wanted to be sentenced to death in order to justify his opposition to the Athenian democracy, and that Socrates felt that old age would be unpleasant anyway."

  • "Waterfield, too, argues that Socrates’ death was a voluntary action motivated by a greater purpose. In Waterfield’s version, Socrates “saw himself as healing the city’s ills by his voluntary death."

  • "Socrates's followers encouraged him to flee (see: Crito), and citizens expected him to do so and were probably not averse to it; but he refused on principle. Apparently in accordance with his philosophy of obedience to law, he carried out his own execution, by drinking the hemlock provided to him. Socrates died at the age of 70"

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 13 years ago

That is a surprizingly negative assessment of a movement that has already garnered more support, in 2 months, than was ever achieved in the sixties. I think you simply don't understand this movement, and tremendously underestimate it's potential. I wonder why?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

No, I am for your movement. But movements only achieve lasting change when they are able to focus their energies upon what needs to be changed.

[-] 1 points by Anarchitect (20) 13 years ago

I don't know, as a member of the internet generation, I'm not quite seeing "the problem." The filter that removes noise can also remove unwanted signal. Think of every parental control program that prevents kids from looking at Michealangelo's David but fails to block goatse. Furthermore, the power to filter content, be it internet content or political power-from-the-people, gives up power to those who filter. On the internet, you have to be your own filter. No, that's not perfect. There are problems with that. But even with all it's problems the internet model is both more Free and more successful than the broadcast model. I'd like to see it applied to government decision making and see how it holds up.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

When your radio antenna is too good, then static drones out the "good" signal you desire. When it is too weak, you can't hear the "good" signal well enough.

Relationship of signal to noise is described, mathematically, by what is called the receiver operator curve.

Societies, libraries, antennae....the music industry....all want to maximize choices BUT there develops a counterweight to progress when people can't find the information they need.

In a sense, it becomes a paradox of choice. It's like buying coffee in a store with two isles of nothing but coffee.....when all you are looking for is Maxwell House....think of it as a reverse tragedy of the commons. There are so many ideas that either none (or only random) ones will gain traction

AND YOU END UP WITH JUSTIN BIEBER.

[-] 1 points by thebeastchasingitstail (1912) 13 years ago

They've had a number of prominent speakers and they have treated them well, and they discussed many ideas.

Where it goes off the rails from your comparison is narrowing down the ideas and the selecting of leaders.

They need direction and they need more structure.

I agree with the 12 traditions idea you have, I replied that thread earlier.

They need to observe those groups & see how much can be decided in 90 minutes when you have some structure and how much people accomplish when they're focused.

[-] 0 points by eyeofthetiger (304) 12 years ago

I want a taste of that sweet bieber

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

Everybody keeps saying that and, each time, I have to get the picture out of my head. Please use the word beaver, or even Beaker, instead.

[-] 0 points by dildo (5) 13 years ago

I want a taste of that sweet bieber

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

Jailbait leads to your becoming jailbait.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by dildo (5) 13 years ago

I want a taste of that sweet Beaver

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

Definitely filters like editors are extremely important.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Without filters, we could not function in the world.

Read, "Against The Gods," the remarkable story of the history of risk. You will look at the internet in an entirely different manner.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

Thanks for the tip.

[-] 0 points by AnonDan (27) 13 years ago

I totally agree to you. This makes complete sense to me. I simply don't see a direction, it's all over the place now. It's just noise now, not worth the attention. This must change or the movement will drag on and die out slowly. That's my observation.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

Amen and exactly.

[-] 0 points by velveeta (230) 13 years ago

not having your diamonds served to you on a silver platter anymore, eh? you're going to have to sift harder and longer, or make them yourself. we don't care!

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

I'm not sure to which one of your personalities to respond.

[-] 0 points by pierpontluv (10) 13 years ago

hmmmm i could have answered the question how justin B. is related to OWS in three words: They Both Suck

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Play nice, Stewie.

[-] 1 points by pierpontluv (10) 13 years ago

i am i am....i'm wearing my "occupy this" boxers

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Make sure you didn't pick out the bacon strips one, I need to put that in the wash.

[-] 0 points by w9illiam (97) 13 years ago

ounds like your comparing the old with the new. Today is not like yesterday we are all talent the internet just gave everyone a chance to shine instead of just a few producer favorites. Today star power is not limited to the biggest ass kissers. Tomarrow the country and the world will be run by the people for the people.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Then why does rock music of today suck like there is no tomorrow?

[-] 0 points by w9illiam (97) 13 years ago

The metal music today’s is the hardest to play, most technically sound marvel in history. Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it sucks. You obviously have no respect or understanding of the arts and I bet you couldn’t tell a china from a splash or an A from an E. you are obviously trapped in mainstream thinking. Rock doesn’t suck! The only thing that sucks is you lips.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Horseshit, Spirit of the Radio couldn't be performed by any of you spunkmonkies. Air bands and video games are not the actual playing of music...

And, you seem to prove my point by pointing to a small, isolated, segment of today's rock......therefore, do you admit that the rest of it is inhabited by a hoard of sucksticks?

[-] 0 points by w9illiam (97) 13 years ago

Look around radio is dead. Nobody listens to the Radio today. Your just trapped in the world of yesterday made to believe everything your told by the suppressed reporters in mainstream media. I bet you believe everything Fox news tells you. BTW I listen to a large variety of music, it just happens that Metal is my favorite. I bet your favorite song is the jingle in the background of a herpes treatment commercial.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Nobody listens to anything besides Classic Rock because the new stuff sucks so thoroughly.

[-] 0 points by w9illiam (97) 13 years ago

You classic thinking brains are the only thing listening to classic rock.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

We are also the only ones who still know how to read and think.

[-] 0 points by w9illiam (97) 13 years ago

I would would respond to your comment but I cant read what it says and I cant Think of anything to say.

[-] -1 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 13 years ago

Why are so many of the protesters into Nickleback? Is that like the OWS official band?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Who is Nickleback?

[-] -1 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 13 years ago
[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Who is Canada?

[-] 0 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 13 years ago

I don't know. I was about to ask you the same thing.

[-] -2 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

You're missing the point entirely. OWS is using anarchy in an attempt to destabilize the government and hopefully make it fall. They do not want clear goals, a structure, or a definition. They just want to create the most confusion possible.

[-] 2 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

No. The movement is unfocused energy looking for answers by finally asking the right questions. I have written extensively of the need for everyone to wrap their arms around three core issues with three clear objectives.

I'll again suggest these three: (1) get money out of politics and severely curtail lobbyists (2) constitutional amendments affirming social security, medicare, and collective bargaining (3) a new "G I bill" that would currently shrink the workforce and would subsidize college tuition for those who are now unemployed and who would study science or engineering. We have enough investment bankers already.

[-] 2 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

I'm hoping otherwise. The failure of OWS will be like an 1890's Robber Baron busting a strike. There will not be anything to take it's place for a while.

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

It's not a question of hope, this is the plan of OWS. Study the movement and you will see.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Hope, schmope. YOU LACK DISCIPLINE. You do not win without discipline and you need to win.

Here, get on the Arnold soundboard and push it over and over. "You lack discipline."

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/arnold

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

I told you, you lack Discipline. I warned you that occupations fail and their messages fail with them. I told you that boycotts are useless when there are million choices.

The only way for a movement to survive is a disciplined message, disciplined messengers, and a disciplined strategy.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

A plan to have no plan is not a plan. Get fucking real. Do you not think that 14000 years of human history would provide you with one such movement that worked in a nonstructure, such as OWS, and achieved it's aims.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 13 years ago

lol, that is the ultimate plan

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

Please realize that I do not support OWS, and that I am simply explaining the idea behind the movement.

A plan to have no plan can be a plan. You would be surprised to know how hard some composers and visual artists worked to make their art seem unplanned and random like. Dadaism and anarchy are not as easy as it seems. The creation of complete chaos needs to be planned very well.

If you study history, you will see that anarchy was successful more than once. Quite recently, in the 60's, the anarchists known as the FLQ in Québec, Canada operated a campaign of terror which destabilized the government. They achieved their goal, and a few years later, a proper political party known as the Partie Québecquois was formed to take over their mission in a peaceful and lawful way.

I don't believe OWS wants power, not at this time. They simply want to confuse matters as much as possible in order to create complete chaos in American and worldwide politics. I do not necessarily believe they want to use terror campaigns like the FLQ, but, nonetheless, they want to create chaos so things will have to start over. They believe the system cannot be fixed and any change will be for the better, this is why they are not concerned about the change per se, but only to destabilize politics so that change can occur. Metaphorically, it is like a painter who is not happy with the way his painting is going and decides to paint all the canvas white so he can start over from scratch. He believes his painting is no good and cannot be fixed, so he decides he must start fresh. At this point, he does not have a plan for the new painting, only the knowledge that he wants to eliminate the old one. OWS are currently throwing the sand in the air so that it falls in a new unpredictable way. They don't know how it will land, but they want it to be as chaotic as possible so that it is not like before. This is why they are not centralized and why each faction of Occupy works separately in its own way. This helps keep Occupy more chaotic and unpredictable. Once this is done, others, or themselves, will pick up the pieces and attempt to start anew, this time with clear goals and a proper political structure.

The Guy Fawkes' mask represents anarchy. If you watched V for vendetta, the concern is to destroy the government, not to replace it. That comes after.

[-] 1 points by OccupyBarsoom (5) 13 years ago

It's been done. Google Maximilien Robespierre. People die by boatloads. Literally - google French Revolution. The idea of healthcare as a right is replaced by the idea of "please God let nobody kill me today." Eventually it gets bad enough that people are willing to back any strong leader, no matter how reprehensible his policies. Google Napoleon Bonaparte. It can happen here, and if enough people welcome it perhaps it will.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

If the French Revolution had not represented the overthrow of a 1000 years of tyrants, aristocrats, and the Church, then perhaps it had not been so violent. It actually didn't start out that way, but the French lacked a George Washington and a cohesive objective.

You see, it is not enough just to want to overthrow something. You have to think what you want in its place a great deal of time before actions begin.

In this manner, OWS has put the cart before the horse. The philosophical, ideology, goal people.....not the shouters or the trolls.....have yet to emerge.

They great problem, however, is that OWS lacks a filtering mechanism for ideas and people.

With winter coming, the occupy locations will be pressured and the participants strained. We will see then whether there is enough momentum to build upon before the 2012 elections.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

OWS doesn't know what it wants.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

I think it's quite the opposite my friend.

[-] -1 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

What do you want?

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

What do you mean exactly? What do I want in reference to what?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

What does OWS want?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

They are anarcho-communists who want to topple republics and turn them into anarchies where everyone can vote using direct democracy. They control the outcome of consensus decisions using various tactics so that no other ideology prevails. This is why Occupy's marketing has remained anrchic-communist in flavor even though the general assemblies are made up of people with various ideologies. They want to create a revolution to put their system in place nationwide, and will use civil war if need be.

Here's a brief outline of their analytical and strategic plan:

http://commonstruggle.org/node/2570

Here's a letter from the anarchists to the occupiers:

http://nefac.net/node/2569

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Dude, your lithium levels may be a little high.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

Do you think? Are you sure? Don't you know Occupy was started by anarchists? http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/david-graeber-the-antileader-of-occupy-wall-street-10262011.html Don't you see anarchic-communist look and feel? Don't you hear the multiple calls for direct action, a anarchic tactic? Don't you see direct democracy, an anarchic setup in which hierarchy is abolished? Don't you see the idea of occupying, a stable of anarchy? Isn't clear by now? Haven't you read the links I provided you? Don't you see how the new posters are getting more violent and creating an enemy by portraying tanks as the police, and creating the image of occupiers as martyrs?

Now, I ask, what do you think they want?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

Anarchists, radicals, and demagogues have originated the sentiment that led reasonable men to push for achievable change.

There has to be some adults in the room, but wouldn't it be great if OWS crystallized around some very rational and realistic goals? Couldn't the initial radicalism fuel a mature response and a logical antithesis to the Neoconservatism that has dominated this country for 10 years?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

Get big money out of politics.

End lobbyist access to government.

Return to progressive taxation policies.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

That's what you and I want, but that's not what Occupy wants. They want to overthrow the government and replace it with anarchy. Read the material I sent you.

[-] 0 points by IChowderDown (110) from Dallas, TX 13 years ago

The real Unemployed number is around 23% with only 47% full-time workers with over 40 Mil people on food stamps. People are very angry, they have been conned. Many are waking up and seeing the real agenda of the elite, etc.., etc..

At first I would of agreed with you on it's unpredictable ways and the no direction, but it's difficult to nail jello to the wall. This way as time goes by testing random things will help flush out the elites weaknesses. Because of it's wide scope it will only attract more of the population, pulling other groups into the arena. time will pass and the movement will continue to shape it's demands.

I think everyone finally senses that Government don't give a flying shit about them, never have and never will.

There is the odd politician that has good intentions. They can join the movement, and or start another political party and the so-called-eyes of the movement.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

In chaotic times, there are always demagogues who "harvest" angry and fearful people.

There is a simple rule to propaganda and marketing, you sell fear, anger, or sex.

Fox news and conservative talk radio have mastered the technique, simply mastered it.

I have great fear for people, who have no economic interests overlapping those represented by these media organizations or the Republican party, will be incited into a mob like mentality and will become further radicalized.

It is almost as if the French Revolution happened in reverse.....the Peasants stormed the Bastille, overthrew the King, and then..........reinstated an Aristocracy with an even tighter grip on the country.

[-] 0 points by happybanker (766) 13 years ago

Great synopsis. Mirrors my thoughts exactly.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

You don't throw away a Rolls Royce because it has a dent. Our system of government, as corrupt as it is, can be repaired. Destruction of the system would be lunacy.

If you use this V for Vendetta crap to guide your movement, then you will destroy all that you fight for.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 13 years ago

The world will end with a whimper, not a bang. However, this movement will be increasingly defined by it's more radical elements and will likely end as an experiment gone wrong.

[-] -1 points by MiKEYD (55) 13 years ago

You just made Santa's "nice" list. Congratulations.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 13 years ago

How are AnchorFred and Intelligent Buying doing these days? Do you have direct contact with Mr. Malobrodsky?

[-] 1 points by MiKEYD (55) 13 years ago

Who are these people?

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

I don't know.

[-] 1 points by JohnmcHD (16) from Chandler, AZ 12 years ago

Obama = Hope Where ? When ? I'll be there ok

[-] 1 points by bluedoghunter (3) 12 years ago

Obama is exactly that, hope. Nothing more. "Hope" is a emotional state which promotes the belief in a positive outcome. The key word is "belief" That means the actions that actually result in positive outcome are completely different than "hope". Obama is just that, hope. He is nothing more than "hot air", who preyed upon the "hope" of Americans to get elected, and impose sanctions that will not fullfill "hope".

[-] 1 points by JohnmcHD (16) from Chandler, AZ 12 years ago

Right on !

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

Unfortunately, I agree with some of that. I think that Obama is very conscious of being the first black president and, if he is seen as angry or excessively confrontational, then it could begin series of events that might set race relations back a generation. He is simply more "kumbaya" then any President I have seen in my lifetime. It's like he has low T on steroids.

[-] 1 points by bluedoghunter (3) 12 years ago

The reason he is "kumbaya" is because he has put polcies in place that may forever supress the black community for many more years to come.

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

Yes, Obama is for the return of Jim Crow.....he just wants them to go to the back of the bus with all of those policies.

[-] 0 points by seaglass (671) from Brigantine, NJ 12 years ago

LOL. Oh yea #OWS is trying to destabilize the Gov't. With what the drum ? Take your meds. your paranoia is returning.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 12 years ago

I'm not saying they will succeed, I'm saying that they think they will and that is their plan.

[-] 0 points by seaglass (671) from Brigantine, NJ 12 years ago

Whose plan? When did they publish such a plan? Your making this shit up pal. Stop it.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 12 years ago

Open your eyes. There are zillions of posts about this, and the word revolution is posted at the top of this website. Occupy doesn't want to fix the government, they want to completely replace it.

[-] 0 points by seaglass (671) from Brigantine, NJ 12 years ago

They can want the moon, so? What are chances they or anyone or any group will be able to do that? ZERO

[-] 0 points by puff6962 (4052) 12 years ago

Occupy doesn't want revolution, it simply wants America back.