Forum Post: The forum is not "the movement"
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 6, 2011, 3:05 a.m. EST by powertothepeople
(1264)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
there are real live people out there, sleeping out in the cold, risking their health, their safety & their freedom, facing off with cops, to advance this movement
Internet activity helps build support & awareness but what else have you done today to support them (us) besides post on the net?
Send a donation, get a group together & visit your local occupation. Don't stress about a forum so much.
Peace & good night.
The real movement is certainly on the streets.
Having said that, forum improvements ARE probably fairly important to the movement. The reason for this is many people who will be occupying (either in NY or elsewhere) get their initial interest and motivation from participating in less direct means (e.g., internet forums). So not having a clear way for people to organize online is probably not very helpful to the movement.
If it's too difficult or too much work to build a more advanced forum on here, then that should simply be made known so that a well-controlled OWS-friendly effort can be made elsewhere. If a more advanced forum is expected here, it's good to give a rough ETA as to when that might occur so that people can simply know.
Those in charge shouldn't take this as too much criticism however, because we know they are doing amazing work and have a ton of things going on, especially on the ground. But, you know, from a distance it's hard for us to all judge what the holdup is and it's easy for people to get impatient.
I disagree...nice easy pretty internet forums is what keeps people on their asses in front of their keyboards instead of getting out in the streets everyday.
Well, that could certainly be true for some, but there are a vast number of people who are probably not entirely convinced they should be out on the street and might need a little discussion or explanation about the movement before they are willing to head out. Then there are others who for whatever reason (maybe they have kids at home) can't sleep out on the street and would like to stay connected to the movement online once they've gone home (e.g., to talk with others about what happened that day, plan for the next, talk higher level theory, etc.).
I could be wrong, but I would guess the number of people lost because of a lack of clear forum discussion is greater than the number of people lost because the forum is so easy to work with. The more discussion people are surrounded by, the more energized they can become, and the more likely they will be for direct action.
For those of you out in the streets participating in the people's assemblies you are a very, very awesome group of those leading the movement. But you have to make way for more less awesome contributions if we are going to gather enough support of the 99% to really change society.
Well, its pretty straightforward. If the status quo is working for you, you probably wont come out. If you are angry about being screwed over by the stinky nexus of money and power, you'll probably join the line. Kids are welcome. There's plenty of people to actually talk to, face to face, about "higher level theory."
How exactly do you plan for the next day of sitting around on your keyboard? People do not become energized by forums. They get flamed up to sit in front of a screen all day. It fools people into thinking they are doing something important when they are not.
Everything being done now is important. This is a leaderless movement, without a stated goal, or even a cohesive list of grievances. The approach is perfect for combating those who would stop us, from within and without, however it still needs a little bit of organization. We need to operate democratically, and with a mind to all of our civil freedoms and responsibilities. Everyone involved is contributing, and all contributions are helpful. The worst thing you can do as the 99% is create differences, and faction-ize. Those on the ground are our army, those on the webz can take up the PR support, global organization, and lead a cooperative discussion about the theories, goals and grievances behind our movement. Let it be understood, that the actions on Wall St. and across the globe AND the action here on the internet and in conversations around the world ARE OUR MOVEMENT.
I guess I can agree with that to some extent. I've been in the "established" left for a long time. And it sank like a stone when everyone decided that making Facebook groups was just as good or better than hitting the pavement. I can see how the web can be used as augmentation, but I think its much better if people wake up in the morning with a burning desire to drive how ever many hours to get the occupation - rather than check their direct messages on a forum.
You probably have a lot more experience organizing and in direct action than I do, and I can understand and sympathize with being upset at the pointlessness of those who join a facebook group to "stop the armenian genocide" for example. It's not helpful for sure.
And again, I absolutely agree that it's better if people wake up and go to the occupation than if they sit at their computers. But there are huge swaths of people who will not go to an occupation for various reasons. And what can the internet do with those people?
1). Take their money in the form of donations. People get energized from forum discussion and donate to those on the ground. People who feel (albeit usually incorrectly) that they have more money than they have time will be particularly likely to do this.
2). Forums can convince them of various things which might make them more willing to come out. "Oh, this isn't a socialist movement calling for the abolishment of the bourgeousie? It's a movement regarding the separation of corporation and state? My news channel didn't tell me that. Okay, I'm in".
3). Let's say, hypothetically, that one of the things coming out of the OWS movement is an attempt to elect some of our own (not sure how this would work exactly, but just for the sake of argument). Then the internet and getting out support for that candidate IS absolutely critical. The strength of the two-party system is that it allows us all to feel that we are alone, and that voting for change is going to simply let the worser of the two parties to win. If there is a dynamic internet presence of people saying "screw both parties" then I think it's more likely that people will vote for change. (Again, maybe we are going for more direct action type of change and not at the ballot box, but IF that doesn't work out it's not unbelievable to expect that this movement could continue as a group that works together, left and right, to combat corporate power in government through whatever normal, electoral channels it might have).
I've sent money and pizza. I'll do more as much as I can. I write letters to my local paper and my skin is getting tougher as the right rips on me in print in my community. I care about my country and my family. There is plenty for all if these greedy bastards stop ripping off the middle class and the uninformed T-Party gets a clue and realizes they are being used. I've been speaking out from about the last two years of Bush when I started waking up to the facts. I campaigned for Obama and I'm not so naive as to the way things work in DC that I'm changing my horse in midstream. He's done alot of good with a terrible congress and senate. The Supreme Court are the devils handmaids with the criminal "Citizens United" BS they passed. I hope they can reverse it if they find Thomas unethical. Which of course he and that wacko wife is -are, I'm sleepy. Stay strong.
PS - I obviously love forum posting & better format would be good xo but I've sent money, supplies and showed up at Liberty Park : ) that doesn't make me better - I'm just sayin' I've walked my talk : )
I know I said goodnight but I saw all these little reply popups before I shut my browser.
My message was not meant to polarize, just to remind everyone there is life out there beyond the internet. Yes, use of the net is huge in spreading the message, getting people involved, raising awareness...but there is much much more to being politically involved.
What's so different about this movement is that people finally are doing SOMETHING besides a Facebook group & a little icon on Twitter! No disrespect to the Coffee Party but thank god this isn't just another Coffee Party (which wound up being a Facebook discussion, then a website and then nothing).
OK? So many posts stressing about a forum and then arguing about moderation - that's just a misplaced focus guys. Love you all, but focus on what's important here.
ding, ding, ding EXACTLY.
Get out in the streets. It doesn't matter where. If you are in a small town...you still must have streets right? Get out on one with a sign. "I am the 99%." Just do it.
Both are extremely important, but what is more important at a certain particular point in time will constantly change.
Currently, yes, SohieH, the physical protest is more important, until significant change can be achieved (i.e. goals/demands met).
But at the same time, the groundwork for the future also needs to established, which will be on the internet, as it's not realistic that the Occupation will last indefinitely (nor do most people want to spend the rest of their lives protesting on the streets, that's 'chaos' and a transition only, as it's unsustainable)
I'm a small entrepreneur living in Ukraine, I went though the Orange Revolution here, no internet sites were used, strictly a physical (peaceful) revolution. When they 'won' (kind of) they handed it off to the 'new' politicians and for a few years things seemed to get better, but just turned into continual political bickering to the point that average people are totally disgusted, low voter turnout. The result? Now Ukraine has a mafia boss (literally) in charge (so Oligarchy form of government, with a high possibility it will turn totally into a Russia, or mild Tyranny/Dictatorship).
The internet will play an increasingly vital role in later stages. The more openness and transparency you can promote the less vulnerable it will be to future hijacking and personal agendas.
Please embrace technology (ultimately, it will be vital to use full legal names to reduce hijacking) as it will make whatever changes are decided upon much stronger (nothing is impenetrable, even 100% open source code), more sustainable and provide the necessary 24/7/360 vigilance that a democracy requires.
Democracy is a lot easier to win then to maintain.
The forum is the movement. I'm sorry you're completely wrong. Action starts in the mind before one muscle twitches and for those that want the spark that started in NYC to inflame them, they need somewhere to go, to see and to participate. From small town Iowa, east and west, north and south, let them gather even if it's only over the aether. We are the 99%, don't prove that to be untrue.
You have somewhere to go. There has to be some public space in your town. Go there. With your family, with a couple of your friends. Wave your signs and stay there. You may stay there a while, but eventually people will come. You have a place to go. Get in the streets.
Went to an event tonight ( http://www.facebook.com/OccupyOrlandoFL ). Plan on offering medical services for the event in my area on 10/15. Action is being taken. Do not mistake movement for action, I'd rather spend some time learning about my brothers and sisters in NY, SF, and wherever else they may be. Don't even consider one form, movement or thought better or more worthy than the other. Both are necessary, both are essential or everything is lost. Thought without movement is lazy, movement without thought is foolish. Eyes are here because this is where it started but it's circling ever wider, don't judge how quickly or by which form it happens, let people offer what they can, what they feel most comfortable with and you'll see the door stays open to new people. Telling them what their part in the movement is is closing the door.
Sorry, but the protesters are part of the 99, just like we are, and the street is not where 99% of us are, nor can we all drop what we have to get there. Take the help where ever it comes from, don't disenfranchise the majority because you were able to march.
The street is where the whole 99% has to be to make long lasting change. You need to drop everything to get in the streets - at least on your day off. Otherwise power is just going to see the movement was weekend warriors. I'm not "able" to march. I make it point to march, and help organize. On the ground, every day. Even if it means 3 hrs of sleep per night. The majority has to get off the web and into the streets. No one can see you on the web. I don't see website forums as help. I seem them as holding back the working class.
There are less then 1% of the population on the ground. If you want the rest of us, the true 99% the General Assembly has to be open to ALL Americans, no matter where they are. Otherwise, the Occupation is just another 1% trying to take control of the government.
Obama won via the internet.
I agree that those who show up in person are the reason the movement is gaining traction, but it would be a mistake to underestimate the potential power of this global network.
An organized internet movement could be a huge help. And we currently don't have it. We need it.
Obama won with a MASSIVE ground army. He raised his money through the internet.
He raised money from corporations more than any other person in the history of our election process.
Ok then, if we must get specific: Obama raised his money through the internet, which is widely recognized as a significant reason he won.
Either way, this doesn't detract from the point. An organized online campaign has the potential to help massively -- even if only to raise funds, as we both agree has been successfully demonstrated in the past, and is sorely needed.
Again though, I agree the people who actually show up are the main brunt of the movement.
I never saw Obama on the internet
nor any solid plan listed
nor any forum discussing his platform
anyone could have beaten the republican party after the war fiasco
Actually he was behind McCain...or neck and neck in some polls until the day Lehman declared banktruptcy. The 2006 elections were a referendum on the war, but 2008 was largely about the mortgage bubble bursting.
...but he did have massive corporate backing and was established as a candidate in an established election system.
We need more because we're starting with nothing. We're not participants in an established system. We haven't been inserted as a recognized player in any existing game.
We're a grassroots movement, a loose association of individuals trying to stand up and create something from nothing. We therefore need more.
Please don't polarize us like this. There is much more afoot right now that this movement is a piece of and there are many ways to advance it. Acting like you are the absolute right means to an end shows you don't know what you're getting into. Everybody contributes in their own way... perhaps one new person read a post online today and started doing their own research into the issues when they never did before.
Don't stress about us so much, we all do our part.
from a tactical and strategic point of view, if you want any of that to have any meaning six months from now, I'm just covering these details which you didn't understand to cover before protesting. I have been at this 20 years its neat to see a new generation half wake up and get to confronting the corporate oligarchy. Its VERY HARD to understand what right action is and still be waiting on that to happen. I'm glad you guys are doing something. A wiki or a forum would be a better use of time and energy if you understood how to use the power of those tools. Building support and awareness? about what? you have a "movement" struggling to even generate a cohesive message. Having a giant logjam of a scrawl chaos forum is a core problem in that. How much easier would it be to sort the chaos and noise if it was organized into sub forums? Again. Your losing ten thousand people a day who would have supported you because you are epic failing to generate meaningful organization. If you think i'm mean- I'm still here. They left and 90 percent won't look back.
Thank you for this.
Maybe this title should read "This forum is not the movement". I am under the impression that the GA at #OccupyWallStreet is trying to build a public forum and wiki.
That's good news.
But, my point here was that "internet forum" is not a substitute for other action and shouldn't be made a priority, as some here were sort of insistent at the time I posted this.
and I bet that 99% of us disagree with you, because people talking is action. Just not the action YOU want, eh?
I have donated, sent clothes, mitts, food, downloaded and distributed fliers, called Bloomberg and the police in support of protesters. Proposed an "adopt a protester" movement among those who cannot go or who were there but are home now. powertothepeople, do not assume things about what people at home are doing or not doing. I agree people can be involved in many ways. Many are. I am. I will be heading to NYC AND be in Toronto as I can be but, in the mean time I'm doing everything else in my power. There are a lot of ways to do this. We are the 99 percent, inclusive. Thanks to those sleeping out in the cold, I appreciate you. I support you in every way.
I suggested a possible campaign reform system based on internet voting
I think a fair amount of people here in the forum plan to hit the street or already have.
A few, but I wouldn't say a fair amount. I thank the OP for this post. Its very true. I wish I could impose a moratorium on any statement starting with "you should." Just come down and do it.
http://www.nycga.net Where the Movement is.