Forum Post: Tea party backs Herman Cain
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 17, 2011, 11:12 a.m. EST by oceanweed
(521)
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've said it before, and I'll say it again: One of the main pillars of Conservative propaganda is that both parties are the same. Nothing they say is further from the truth. It is an insidious lie intended to demoralize progressives, and discourage them from voting. Do not fall for this canard, because if both parties are the same, there is no hope for change, and therefore no reason to vote. The truth is that there is a difference between the parties. A stark difference! One party works for the rich, the other party works for all Americans. One party takes money from the needy to feed the greedy, and the other party takes money from the greedy to feed the needy. One party has plans and policies to create jobs, and the other party has a long list of lame excuses for not doing anything. Liberals want to change things. Conservatives want things to stay the same. There is a difference. One party wants to tax the rich, and the other party wants to tax the poor. One party wants to destroy Unions, and the other party wants to support them. One party supports the Occupation of Wall Street, and the other party doesn’t. One party wants to rebuild America, and the other party doesn’t. One party wants to provide health care for all, and the other party doesn’t. One party wants to regulate Wall Street, and the other party doesn’t. One Party wants to end the wars; the other party wants them to go on forever. There is a difference. One party is Myopic, and the other party is Far Sighted. One party wants to help the Middle Class, and the other party is at war with the Middle Class. One party wants to fire Teachers, and the other party wants to hire them. One party wants to create more jobs in America, and the other party wants to create more jobs in Asia. There is a difference. One party wants to protect pensions, and the other party wants to loot them. One party has a heart, and the other party has Ann Coulter. One party protects the right bear Arms, and the other party protects the right of freedom of assembly. One party believes that the only role for the Government is to provide for the common defense, and the other party believes that the Government should also promote the general Welfare. There is a difference, and anybody that tells you there is no difference between the parties is simply not conversant with reality. In addition, anyone that blames the Democrats for the current state of affairs has no understanding of who controls the Government. One Party has the Presidency, and the other party has the Majority in the House, controls the Senate, has a majority on the Supreme Court, and is responsible for current economic policy. So, if you’re angry, and you want to start a real fight, I submit that we should start a real fight with the Conservatives! America has a Two Party System. One party is clearly on your side, the other party thinks you’re and Anti-American mob. At some point in time you’re going to have to pick one. Choose wisely, your future is at stake
Could you say it one more time? I missed that last one.
ows will never support republican views
OceanWeed,
We get it! You've said it before and you'll say it again -- blah, blah, blah.
If you broke up some of that brick of text -- people might actually read it.
Apologists for the Supply Sider policies that drove this economy down will definitely not agree with you. I do because I used to help the GOP in it's psy-ops. The tactic of creating a perception of equivalency between the parties was central to depressing the independent left leaning vote; as such it's been pursued for at least 20 years.
That's interesting. Can you post more about this? Your role in the GOP, I mean? Communications and "driving the narrative" isn't the strength of many in this movement.
The TP and RP factions are definitely trying to conflate the movements, and while the Democrats appear to be the most "likely co-opters," these other groups are tugging at the flaps of the tent to get in. Of course, the movements couldn't possibly be more different, representing as they do diametrically opposed visions of the future (the #OWS against neo-liberalism and the strict constitutionalists very much for it).
I'd be very interested in more about your story and views on this.
Peace.
Groobiecat
www.groobiecat.blogspot.com
PS. Here's an excellent example of how the "not so subtle" Tea Party has tried to create this equivalency: http://www.reformer.com/localnews/ci_19128301 (not picture at the top--I was there and that was the only TP rep at the "occupation.")
Well to be absolutely clear.. every single committee local and national in the RNC is part of the "psy-ops" campaign. I meant in no way to imply I was part of some secret decoder ring club within the establishment. It all started in the days of fax machines before true believers slowly took over. You recieved the desired focus grouped talking points and moved to pass them along while disseminating the derived message to others by word of mouth, speeches, and letters. Todays social networking lends itself to this process. Most used to know and understand exactly what we were doing but I don't have much faith that many still do. Propaganda/agitprop is big bad medicine and it works both ways. Typhoid Mary is NOT at all immune in it's case. Don't get caught up in falsehoods simply to drive the narrative... those falsehoods apparently creep into reality and then take over.
Driving the Narrative. The first thing to learn is that simplicity is strength of message: distill the message into it's most concentrated form - then if you can get real traction other sidebars can be revisited later - this message then is ready for prime time. Prime time readiness leads to repetition. That simple message gets pounded over and over and over. Reporters ask questions? The message is given and people down the line, top to bottom and side to side, stay on message. Someone tries to twist it? Keep on message. Doing this is impossible with a wide range of varying thoughts ideas and concerns... with a few good solid messages it's a piece of cake.
We had a wide range of concerns and initially distilled them down to a few simple messages - and stuck to them. Each subgroup had theirs (anti-abortion, tax reduction, etc) and none infringed on the others while ALL were working towards the same mutually supported goal of Congressional, Executive, and Judicial dominance.
Good lord, this is exactly what I've been saying for years--only less articulately: drive the narrative, keep it simple. I always thought that Rove wasn't rocket science, but it was more lockstep and unyielding, whereas the Kerry campaign folks, for example, were more feet up on the desk and "collegial."
Wow. This is brilliant stuff--although, it's pretty intuitive.
Where are you now--philosophically speaking? You said you used be in GOP psy-ops.
Do you have a blog?
Cheers.
It IS really simple in concept.. it takes real coordination and serious dedication to take it any further however. That is what is arrayed against OWS right now. The message that you are directionless hippy kids goes from FOXganda to viewer, from Limbaugh-alikes to listener, from politician to constituent every day in a thousand ways. To millions who have no actual or honest idea what you're about this is all they need in order to define you into a single easily understood package.
LOL. I say psy-ops because I see that as the function we were ALL engaged in! I'd better be careful about what I say, eh?
I was a personal liberty, good government Republican. I fought hard alongside my old party when that was important to them. Moderate Republicans have essentially gone extinct. The only personal liberty todays GOPbag will protect is the personal liberty of corporate entities to do as they please and TEApublicans all seem to think government is inherently evil. If you ever read any commentary I've posted you'll see my main thrust. It's hard to mistake as I'm pretty direct about it.
No Blog.. tho I enjoy posting comments and an occasional article or seed on Newsvine.
Cheers
"Moderate Republicans have essentially gone extinct." Right. I moved to DC in 1982 and joined up with the DCCC shortly thereafter. I never thought that I'd live to see the day when Reagan would be considered a de factor "class warrior" because he agreed to raise taxes 11 times. And I never thought I'd miss Bob Dole! :D
There seems to be little appetite for civilized polemic among the neo-extremists running things. Increasingly, I'm more less interested in abels and more interested in national priorities and allocation of resources. The orthodoxy of the Tea Partiers (co-opted, not co-opted, baked with a side of fries, what have you) seems untenable in so many ways. Ironically, there are great examples of countries that actually don't devolve into mudslinging and name calling (entirely) and that decided, collectively and without extremist zeal, what they all think should be done to take care of people. Take Finland, for example. They decided to eliminate homelessness. Didn't bankrupt them or create a continuous lazy nanny state class of pot-smoking marxists. They just had a plan and executed. Not terribly dramatic.
Of course, on the the sticky label front: the class warfare tag. Conveniently ignores the fact that the godfather of the conservative movement himself wouldn't pass that means test today. Brilliant--and painfully effective.
Anyway, I'll check your other posts.
Cheers.
Good points. This One's an old firebrand. grin I yam what I yam. Civilized behavior only works when both sides engage. The moment one unilaterally disarms they are in deep trouble. If your opponent has no problem with hitting below the belt, gouging, and slipping sharp objects into your back the honor of fighting clean isn't worth a posthumous good citizenship award... better to untie both hands and win; to be alive to say "I wish we'd have been able to fight cleaner!"
Great point about Finland... but remember that societies are not as easily compared to one another in real life. Like people they are products of their collective upbringing, their histories, and their disparate learning experiences. Many countries have the societal capabilities to do what others are manifestly incapable of doing. Not meant as a blanket dismissal.. just another point to take into consideration.
As an example it's valuable... I don't see Americans doing anything meaningful (and, often enough, utterly meaningless) without fighting.
Aloha
Can't reply to groobie for some reason... so, I'll reply here! I think what we've been lacking is true compromise. Both sides fight to gain a tiny bit of ground and then are all around unpleased with the end result. I think the best way to meld capitalism and social services is to first, do it at a local level (tailor to local needs and eliminate wasteful spending), then to either fund with government money, but foster a competitive market within the system itself (education would be a good example of this, using vouchers or widespread charters), or to require a certain amount of donation per level of income to the charity of your choice.
The free market system stays intact and you get the benefits of competition, but society ensures that everyone is taken care of.
Fist paragraph: Couldn't possibly agree more: If the bully is taking your lunch money, and you take the "higher ground," you'll still get the crap beaten out of you and lunch money taken. But hey, you stood your ground. Ugh.
re: Finland, yeah, didn't mean that as a literal "Hey, let's do this!" example, but more of a "Hey, look what happens when people decide what's important, collectively." I've had people say "well, why doncha move there?" Not the point, of course, you raise a good point regarding cultural context. We do have ingrained in us that frontiersman/rugged individualist thing going on here, and it's easy to point out alternatives abroad that might not gain similar traction here. Of course, as an analyst, I'd definitely want to know how other countries manage to mix a capitalist economic model with social services programs. Germany is another good example--and probably a better one, really, since they're the lead economic power in the EU. I love my Jetta TDI! ;)
And yeah, the last point is the really critical one: what's realistic and doable? That's what I'm struggling with re: #OWS. Lots of theory and conceptual ideals being thrown around, and that's great to gather momentum, but at some point, the shit's gonna have to get real, know what I'm sayin"?
Those who would say that there's no difference between the parties, really mean that the politicians are all the same. The two parties, and the regular people who belong to them, are very different, but not as you describe here.
The way I see it, both parties want to same end goal, which is prosperity for our country. What they differ on is how to achieve that goal.
You've clearly demonstrated here that you don't understand the conservative POV, and you're just buying into party warfare. Do everyone a favor and try to stretch your mind a bit to understand the viewpoint. I have always found that when you don't understand something, if you open your mind and learn from the other POV, you can really expand your thinking exponentially.
We will never overcome the powers that be if we spend all our time fighting each other. Remember, that's exactly what they want us to do. Don't buy into it.
if their the same then why are republicans attacking ows so hard is that their mad or scared they will have to help the middle class
We are the middle class! And it's not about being "scared" of helping anyone (our country and tax dollars already help LOTS), it's about getting a corrupt government out of the business of helping others and letting the people do it, or allowing it to happen at a more local level of government (whichever the people choose).
Honestly, you're completely ignorant as to what it means to be a conservative. Please, please, please, please learn about it. Ask some questions, I will answer them to the best of my ability.
no republican leader will ever support tax rich get money out of politics end wars
Okay. Let's start with punctuation. No one can understand you when you don't use it. Paragraph breaks help a great deal, as well.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: One of the main pillars of Conservative propaganda is that both parties are the same. Nothing they say is further from the truth. It is an insidious lie intended to demoralize progressives, and discourage them from voting. Do not fall for this canard, because if both parties are the same, there is no hope for change, and therefore no reason to vote. The truth is that there is a difference between the parties. A stark difference! One party works for the rich, the other party works for all Americans. One party takes money from the needy to feed the greedy, and the other party takes money from the greedy to feed the needy. One party has plans and policies to create jobs, and the other party has a long list of lame excuses for not doing anything. Liberals want to change things. Conservatives want things to stay the same. There is a difference. One party wants to tax the rich, and the other party wants to tax the poor. One party wants to destroy Unions, and the other party wants to support them. One party supports the Occupation of Wall Street, and the other party doesn’t. One party wants to rebuild America, and the other party doesn’t. One party wants to provide health care for all, and the other party doesn’t. One party wants to regulate Wall Street, and the other party doesn’t. One Party wants to end the wars; the other party wants them to go on forever. There is a difference. One party is Myopic, and the other party is Far Sighted. One party wants to help the Middle Class, and the other party is at war with the Middle Class. One party wants to fire Teachers, and the other party wants to hire them. One party wants to create more jobs in America, and the other party wants to create more jobs in Asia. There is a difference. One party wants to protect pensions, and the other party wants to loot them. One party has a heart, and the other party has Ann Coulter. One party protects the right bear Arms, and the other party protects the right of freedom of assembly. One party believes that the only role for the Government is to provide for the common defense, and the other party believes that the Government should also promote the general Welfare. There is a difference, and anybody that tells you there is no difference between the parties is simply not conversant with reality. In addition, anyone that blames the Democrats for the current state of affairs has no understanding of who controls the Government. One Party has the Presidency, and the other party has the Majority in the House, controls the Senate, has a majority on the Supreme Court, and is responsible for current economic policy. So, if you’re angry, and you want to start a real fight, I submit that we should start a real fight with the Conservatives! America has a Two Party System. One party is clearly on your side, the other party thinks you’re and Anti-American mob. At some point in time you’re going to have to pick one. Choose wisely, your future is at stake
Oh, my... you have this saved in a word file somewhere, right? You just pull it out whenever you don't know what to say? Because responding to my response to this with this is stupid. Sorry, I'm not usually rude... but it is.
Open your mind, stop propagating ignorance.
In response to ocean- Well, then you'd better change your slogans, since you will now be the 48ish%. In fact, the ideas that I have seen over and over again ARE conservative ideals... campaign finance reform, term limits, states rights, etc... If you want to get anything actually done to change the way our government works, you have to come together on these commonground issues. Do you disagree?
ows will never support republican views
powerful
Yes they do and this is why. So please be sure to vote.
While I agree with much of what you say, the #OWS is very much beyond the traditional dichotomy. Read Chris Hedges on this front (and while I agree with him, I disagree with his ultimate conclusions: http://www.truthdig.com/report/page3/a_movement_too_big_to_fail_20111017/). You need to try to think beyond the parties. The democrats are currently being reviled by the movement, while the "other side" is being somewhat more "welcomed."
An irony that could, potentially, lead to disastrous consequences. Yes, the democrats need to be kept at bay, but they should be co-opted, not the other way around.
I can guarantee you that over 90% of the people who comprise the #OWS are "former" democrats. How to bridge that divide is the big issue, it seems.
Peace.
Groobiecat
[ There's a blog here: www.groobiecat.blogspot.com ]
[ There's an #OWS election process here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/come-to-the-nyc-general-assembly-on-10-15-12-to-st/ ]
[ There's a draft Declaration here: https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/ ]