Forum Post: Student loans: The next bubble
Posted 12 years ago on May 15, 2012, 8:01 p.m. EST by occuman
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Who are you going to blame for this one?
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We used to believe in giving students free education. Now we believe in giving bankers free guaranteed profit.
This is another insight into the insidious nature of Indentured Debt Servitude.
Student debt, which once created and Generating Compound Interest is then sold and traded as an 'investment' generating 'returns' and the unconscionable nature and result of this is slowly but surely strangling the young people and students in The U$A and the entire nation will suffer in the long term.
I append this very interesting article and scroll down through this to access further relevant information on this matter : "The Student Loan Crisis Everyone Saw Coming", by Andrew Leonard : http://www.salon.com/2012/04/06/the_student_loan_crisis_everyone_saw_coming/ .
fiat justitia ...
Wah, wah, wah
Is that what bankers would sound like if you took away their guaranteed profit?
who is we? Nothing is "free" get that through your thick head. someone has to pay for it. I suppose as long as it's not you it's ok.
The question is whether investing in education provides a suitable return for society as a whole. Those countries that offer it must believe so.
who's doing the investing? You mean the govt takes my money and invest it in someone else's education? What if that person is a loser? I am required to pay for their education? Why - so they can wind up like socialist loser like ows ? those countries can do what they want and if that's what you want then be my guest and go live there.
If society is managed properly, a critical number of the graduates would be winners who pay off for society as a whole, resulting in progress that is profitable for all members of society.
Its not just socialist countries that offer free education. Argentina, which is pursuing increasingly nationalist policies, offers almost free university education, and I did indeed go and live there for a while.
But as an American citizen, I still feel it is my responsibility to pursue political policies that are beneficial to our society here.
that's just it - you want someone else to "manage' you instead of managing yourself.
good luck
I don't need anybody to manage me, but I do want to see society managed so that it returns a decent profit. By profit, I really mean progress.
Today we have things that the kings of the past never had - air conditioning, TV, medicines, computers, etc. These came about through discoveries and inventions.
Making education free would maximize the number of discoveries and inventions that are developed. This would allow the common people of the future to possess the things which only the wealthy can afford today.
one mans version of progress is another mans version of shackles. again - education is not free someone pays - as long as it's not you I suppose.
You really don't want air conditioning, TV, medicines, computers, etc.? I think that most of the rest of us do.
I know that education is not free, but I see it as investing rather than just paying. I'm happy to invest in good education, even if it is the education of other people, as long as it yields a good return.
I don't need to subsidize education to have all those things. In fact - who is the far and away leader responsible for all those things The U.S. or your Eurotrash Socialists?
The US was the leader in progress, years ago when education was cheaper.
We are still the leader in virtually every way except coincidentally the results churned out by our education system. K-12 is paid for by the taxpayer - at 18 you are an adult you are on your own.
I wouldn't say that we are the leader in terms of economic growth these days.
Nobody is completely on their own whether adult or child. We support each other in a lot of ways with our taxes. I'm willing to support the education of other adults if it pays off for me.
There's really no point in talking to him. What he wants is the U.S. to turn into a third world bananna republic. There are plenty of countries that are run along the lines that he espouses, the only thing is they are all third world countries. It's a philosophy of selfishness and hatered that is backed up by a large propaganda campaJign over a long time. If he were to go and live somewhere that is run like that tell him to visit El Salvador or South Africa.
Perhaps so, but he doesn't call names or use obscenities. I consider it worth while to engage that sort of person in a conversation even if we disagree.
hopefully that's temporary You have to look at the totality of history come on !
If you want socialized education move. I am sure you want socialized medicine too. where do you draw the line or don't you?
Well, I hope its temporary also, but we have to have the right policies to make it so.
I could move, or I could get involved politically to change the system, that's what I choose to do. And yes, I would like to see society pay for medicine.
This is how I think of it, a company doesn't try to make a profit off of repairing its own equipment. It doesn't make sense economically. There's a place for profit and a place for non profit.
the rise in the cost of education is due to the unions. harvard gets federal grants and yet has an endowment of over 30 billion.
It wouldn't surprise me that there is corruption in unions. Pretty much everything is corrupt these days, even ordinary people.
what do unions have to do with it?
Look at this stuff http://www.thenation.com/article/167142/colleges-withhold-transcripts-grads-loan-default?page=full
uft and the pensions. bad teachers that cant be fired, teachers teaching classes of which they have no knowledge. dumbed down test to make teachers look as if they're teaching.
you already do with property taxes
Damn people. Go to school to get jobs while they are busy being sent overseas.
and why do you suppose jobs are being sent overseas? They are be chased overseas. Learn to do a job that is 1) difficult and 2) hard to move overseas. or be flexible & move overseas where the jobs are
Grow up. They are being sent overseas for slave wages. R & D.
who's sending who? oh you mean the volunteers who signed up for the military. Yea - Notice the word VOLUNTEER!
R&D jobs have been sent overseas. Obviously, the military is volunteered. Not what we are discussing.
How about that? The current system keeps creating bubbles. I say, my man, I do believe it may be broke.
Hole in the feeder line?
I'm no mechanic, but checking the hoses sounds like a good start.
When you have foam something is wrong. Take it from someone who maintained machines as part of the day to day.
What would you recommend to fix it? Stand around and blame the operator or look inside for the faulty part(s)?
Trouble shoot. Look at the most likely cause and move on from there. It could be the operator ( elected official ) if the operator wanted to slow down the process. It could be a clogged filter ( regulation ). One of the lines might be plugged ( hoarding ) and so stressing the system. Yep - it sometimes is a real obvious single failure and sometimes a combination.
Troubleshooting is productive. I'm not that good at diagnosing, but I would think having two different operators running the machine and both getting bubbles makes me want to rule out operator error. I think this bubble is really only a small one and there is a much larger one no one sees. The Giant Income Gap bubble.
Yep a restricted valve or line - makes sense and is easy to check. And if your supervisor is not a total fool - easy to fix.
ah - so you have a system to prevent the economic cycle. Please share and explain how to prevent these cycles.
From what I can see, the cycles are cause by wealthy people manipulating the system. For example, in the mortgage crisis, they started giving loans to sub prime borrowers.
The great depression was preceded by a period of rampant speculation, as was today's crisis. So preventing cycles would require the prevention of speculation.
Than, we could have regular, steady growth based on science.
and why did lenders start giving loans to sub prime borrowers? why did the sub prime borrowers take the loan?
Well, by "lenders" let's say the people who own the banks. Since past money making strategies are greatly diminished in the US, by factories being moved to China, they use speculative scams as an alternative approach to making profit.
Historically, its a common thing for the elite to take advantage of the vices of the common people, through gambling, drugs, etc.
Those borrowers took the loans because they wanted to own homes. The wealthy took advantage of their inability to manage their finances.
no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to make them take out a loan. If you want to borrow money to go to some expensive private school, major in gender studies so you can brag at parties thats up to you. bear the consequences.
Are you a reactionary, purely pro-private profit, closet Corporatist whose imagination is fettered by Conservative 'Pro-Business' Shibboleths ?
Are you here to push That Corporate Line, by insidious and devious means ? If this is the nature of your enterprise then you don't really deserve any substantive response from me. However ...
Is Education 4-18 "Free" at the point of use in most of the 'developed' world (and as was the case in Iraq and Libya for instance) ? How much of a stretch of the imagination is it to 'imagineer' 18-21+ Education being Free (as was the case in Iraq and Libya) ? How do Germany, Netherlands & the Low Countries, Scandinavian Countries, Scotland and until recently the whole of The UK, do it & do higher earning graduates pay more taxes over the course of their working lives ?!
WhyTF should the important matter of the education of the young, young people, students young and old ; the future workforce and taxpayers - be yet another source of Compound Interest Bearing Debt being traded and speculated for purely private pecuniary gain ?!!
If money can be so readily found for War and Empire as well as Tax breaks, cuts and exemptions for Corporations and the 0.01% Oligarchs then why in the name of love and logic can it not be directed to The Citizenry and invested in them for the future good of all ?!!!
Here's a pretty picture and a report to take to bed with you :
http://www.warresisters.org/sites/default/files/FY2012piechart-color.pdf &
http://www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/CorporateTaxDodgersReport.pdf .
e tenebris lux ...
Is Education 4-18 "Free" nothing is free someone always pays. If you want free stuff move to Greece or one of those other lazy freeloader societies. Americans don't want handouts they want to be left free to pursue their own interests. Thats why people came here in the first place. If you dont like it - go back to where your ancestors came from.
That's not really any kind of answer to any of my points now, is it ?! Your 'Reflexive Reaction' is most revealing and you display quite effectively, just what the societal and personal repercussions of a poor education really are !!
temet nosce ...
hahaha! your just another freeloader looking for free stuff. no surprise.
Are YOU on drugs too ?! You have not addressed a single point I made and your comment is yet another testament to the lack of investment (private or public) in your education, in your inability to differentiate your from you're !! You're a bit of a stupid, reactionary 'Teabagger'-dork aren't you ?!!!
nosce te ipsum...
address what exactly? that other countries have the taxpayers fund everyone's education? so what - go move there. If you want to live in a paternalist society move. People moved to America to be free of that oppression. Real Americans want to pay their own way.
So 'Free at the point of use' Education is "oppression" is it ?! It must absolutely kill you when you see 4-18 year old kids going to school at The Public Expense !! WTF do you think you know about "Real Americans" ?!!! Back to your Vicodin now - Teabagger F*ckwit ...
gnothi seauton ..
The way K-12 is in public schools today is Tyranny. Without a voucher system it is oppressive. No choice government indoctrination factories. No wonder you occupy lol! K-12 gets you to 18 years old. you are an adult who can hopefully read, write & do basic math & understand a little science . the rest is up to you. how you make your living is not my problem. you are an adult @ 18 years old. Time to grow up.
Unfortunately, the charter schools are failing children miserably. There is no reason for the people to send children for corporate indoctrination.
Have you ever reflected or meditated upon The Nature Of LOVE ?! amor vincit omnia ...
No one is holding a gun to anyone's head to make them buy illegal drugs either. Does that mean we should make illegal drugs legal? I know some free market extremists think we should.
Today, people have to borrow money to go to public schools that were once quite affordable. Thinking in today's terms, I once asked my dad, how did he ever finance three kids through college? He said, it was easy back then, about thirty years ago.
so you are comparing taking out a college loan to drugs? good argument lol. State tuition is still quite affordable. you benefit from the education you should have skin in the game. That's how we know you are serious.
A college loan is comparable to illegal drugs to the extent that both result in the enslavement of the individual. People who get addicted to drugs become slaves to their drug dealers. Similarly, people who take out usurious college loans become slaves to their loan sharks.
Regarding state tuition, from what I've recently heard, a year at the University of California costs around $20k. In my day it was substantially less.
I don't think we need to subject students to usury to make sure they are serious. More reasonable fees should do the trick.
yes - and drugs should be legalized. How did prohibition work out ? does that 20K include room & board? in NY State tuition is 5K per year. If you cant come up with that and aren't smart enough for a scholarship - you don't deserve an education
Before you rush in to legalizing drugs, try to remember the Opium Wars, in which the British Empire got about 10% of the Chinese population hooked on Opium.
The Chinese became slaves to a horrible addiction, leaving their military decimated and unable to defend their country. Do you want that here?
For me, it is not a matter of whether people deserve an education, but whether I deserve the benefits of an educated society. I believe that I do.
which is worse - allowing people to make their own choice to become a drug addict? or tolerating drug gangs terrorizing the inner city neighborhoods with fear & violence & making drugs available on top of it? Just look at booze - did the repeal of prohibition destroy the country?
During the Opium Wars, the British Empire was the drug gang that took over Chinese society from the top down through immense terror and violence.
Today, a financial empire based on Wall Street and the City of London is the main beneficiary of the global drug trade. We could shut most of that operation down by passing Glass Steagall.
Alcohol doesn't always result in a horrible addiction as opium usually does.
free to choose my friend
However, once you're addicted to opium, the choice becomes much more difficult.
Personally I do not. But I've heard there are alternatives. For some strange reason people like this one a lot.
you've heard what from whom? do your homework before attempting to engage in an academic discussion. geeezzz - and do you always form your opinion on what you have heard? no wonder the country is in the toilet. The alternative to economic cycles is North Korea. Enjoy your stay there.
Let me get this straight.Your wonderful system is in place and the country is in the toilet. 1+1. No....no bells ringing.
Instead, you deduce through an astounding display of incomprehensible logic that I am to blame, someone you know nothing about, for the country being in the toilet.
Dude, I hate to break it to you. But you are not the sharpest tool in the shed yourself.
lets not get distracted - you said you personally dont have a plan to prevent economic cycles but you've "heard" others do. lets hear it. Provide some backup. What have you heard & from whom?
No. I don't think I will. I'll leave it at you need to find your own way to new ideas, because that is the only way you will be open to receiving them.
what new ideas? so far you have not provided any nor any sources. Definition of a drone.
Boycott debt! Don't borrow money. IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE. It is nauseating to to hear borrowers complain about having the debt that they, themselves, asked for.
I totally agree with you justoneof99. A bunch of lazy whiners here who want a handout. Can you ever imagine one of these people showing up for an interview? What a nightmare to have one of these freaks slip through the cracks & wind up in your employ lol!
The link doesnt work
Copy and paste it (without the quotation marks, of course). It worked for me that way.
yeah i looked it up. thanks
Banksters, of course. Blaming the person whose name appears on the bottom of the loan agreement, why, that's just crazy.
hahahaha! and the government gets a pass once again. not to mention the sucker who's taking out the loan. Read the article before you make your assertions. "http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/student_loans_the_next_bubble_cnUurleKnXABfXKkTyiqSM"
Governments....obviously. They get involved in schooling....what happens? Prices go up and quality goes down. They get involved in medicine and what happens? Prices go up and quality goes down. They get involved in housing and what happens? Prices skyrocket and then the whole housing market collapses....it's government....every single time.
The American government was originally designed to protect us from the rich and powerful. Nowadays, those same rich and powerful use the media, including magazines like "The Economist" to make people think that government is intrinsically bad.
Today's US government is indeed quite bad, but I don't think that this is a necessity, it is a result of corruption by the rich and powerful.
I agree government is supposed to protect us...but after a certain amount of time one has to evaluate the system and determine if it is producing its intention. I argue it isn't, and hasn't. Because it's government though, it can't be fired like the free market would.....and the self powering machine continues to build its momentum.
What I find most convincing are statistics. Where do the populations find the most prosperity? Where are the middle classes the greatest? Where is there the least amount of poverty? Where is there the least separation of wealth? Where is there the least amount of unemployment? These can all be found in the most counter intuitive place that you can think of....the most free markets in the world with the least amount of government intervention. The heritage foundation charts economic freedom (limited government and a bunch of other criteria) for most countries in the world. If you chart this index vs. everything i listed above you will notice that the people are the most taken care of in the economies where the government stays out of the way the most. It is counter-intuitive i agree...you would think that government provides for the people (because that is what it is there for)....but it doesn't.
I think another point is that people are mad with big business...they are mad that there is such a separation of wealth. But how does it happen? The only way it can happen is through big government....when big business becomes intertwined in big government...there is no other way. Just look at our current candidates...who's one of the biggest contributors to the Romney campaing? Goldman Sachs. What about Obama? Goldman Sachs. Once again it leads back to government...it's the root cause...for without it big business would not have the power it does now.
If you want to track statistics of where the middle class was the greatest, I would suggest that you also look through history. We had great booms in the middle class during the presidencies of JFK and FDR. Were they running big government? If so, the results were quite positive.
You speak of separation of wealth, and say that it is due to the intertwining of big business and government. I would say that big business initiated this process quite some time ago.
No doubt there have been some great presidents in the past who have done great things. But two presidents doesn't really make great statistics...that's why i like the heritage...you can take a snapshot of 100's of countries all at once and gather massive statistics with it. Hong Kong is a great example of what a free market can do to completely change a country....all in around 40 years....going from extreme poverty to one of the wealthiest in this span of time....all because they let the free market do what it does best...create prosperity for the average joe.
To me it doesn't matter if big business initiated the process...the process is in place. I'm not arguing that big business is any more noble than government by any means. They are people, just like people in government. My point is that big business wouldn't be able to take advantage of you without it being tied so closely with government. How can microsoft force you to buy their products? If you don't like the product and they aren't providing you with good service you cast a vote every time you buy their product or don't. How do they harm the average joe? To me they do it through government. Look at the things that are detrimental to consumers....take genetically modified foods for example. One could say that they are evil and force us to eat their foods when there is evidence it could be detrimental to our health. They can only do this through government....and because government gets millions from them...government actively works in accord with monsanto to stop foods from being labeled to give consumers the choice of whether they can eat or not eat....or how the FDA has done studies showing ill health effects but won't publish the research because it could be detrimental to monsanto...the one's lining government officials pocket books. I look at the root cause being government because without them many of these businesses couldn't take advantage of us.
I guess if you really dig down to the bone the root cause is money...find some way to take money out of politics (put a cap on the gross amount they can earn every year through all avenues of income....they are supposed to be doing a service for the country...so one should be ok with having their total income capped to provide for people through government). Create a system where campaigns can't be financed by big business as well (caps on donations....get rid of superpacs). Root out any possible way for money to create a system of greed anywhere in government by big business.
Most of that sounds fair enough. I'm not certain about the success of Hong Kong though. What looks like a fortune can be rather fake. For example, because of the mortgage crisis, many homes that quickly grew to $200k in value just as rapidly tumbled to $50k. I would think that mainland China is a better example of real growth, having brought some 100 million people out of poverty in the last thirty years.
unfortunately - to this bunch - it is not at all obvious john23. unfortunately common sense is not all that common
Student loan bubble is part of a bigger bubble- a global reserve currency that is only backed by "good faith".
It will come down, along with credit card debt, business debt, all debts (as in the entire economy) when the world has finally decided to give up on fighting the collapse.
It may be sooner than you think.
Damn, and me with no debt to be forgiven!
Maybe its time to go out and run up the credit card (not)!