Forum Post: Student Loans - some personal responsibility
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 8, 2011, 11:34 a.m. EST by ADemocraticRepublic
(49)
from Midland Township, MI
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I've read numerous posts about the inability to repay student loans. Who forced the recipient to borrow the money? They could have worked and saved, then paid for college. They could have worked and paid as they went. If a college degree is as bad as some have indicated (3 degrees in sociology and still no job!), they could have just gotten a job (worked). There is a theme developing here.
The borrower is slave to the lender. Always was, always will be. If you do not want to be enslaved, don't borrow!
When I was 17 years old in 1997, I had enough sense to see that: -Jobs don't pay enough -College is too expensive -Houses cost too much -Cars and Insurance cost too much
I readjusted my lifestyle to be very simple. I've never driven a new car or a car worth over $8500. I still with my parents @ age 30. I've been paying them rent for the last 4 years, after I got a good paying job.
To all the people who have insane student loans but didn't bother to check if it was realistic to go into it, I don't feel sorry for you. You guys went to college and got to experience it in your prime young adulthood. I'm 30 and I'm working for my Associates part time. There's not a lot of 30 year old girls taking night classes @ college.
I was fortunate enough to have a nack for computers, after a very long time of taking classes and certifications paid for by minimum wage jobs, I landed my first real paying job in 2006 @ $300 a week, and now I have a job that pays $750 a week (After taxes and health benifits. Please note I do not have a college degree as yet.)
It's kind of funny how all these poor folks with all this college debt are too stupid to realize where the problem starts: money well spent.... LOL!!
this is the entire protest and why it'd never be taken seriously because it smacks of "durr i got into 100k in debt for a unemployable degree, please bail me out"
You sum up the protest nicely. It's funny (sad) that your summary is what I first thought when I heard about OWS. Now that I've read as much as I can - still the same sentiment.
Never took out a loan in my life and still managed to get a decent education at state schools (PhD) never out of work long as a scientist, bought used car with cash (take that, car salesman) pay off credit cards at end of month, etc. Happy to rent till I have enough for home ownership. My own quiet revolution. Admittedly less interesting than OWS.
I completely agree with the sentiment of the original post but look at how society pressures people to get a degree. It's pretty much expected to go to college. If you don't go to college, people think you're an idiot. They talk about going to college like it's the greatest thing in the world. They treat you like a moron if you are trying to do your own thing. Jobs won't hire many people if they don't have bachelors degrees. As an example, I can draw and paint better than any instructor at the state school nearby, but I would never be allowed to teach drawing or painting there because I don't have the piece of paper. Society tries to forcefully persuade, or gently force, people into getting a degree, whether it's actually useful or not.
It's a hair short of indentured servitude.
Every day I am more and more convinced that organized education is one of the real enemies.
Not to mention that fake society that college appears to generate. It sends many people out in the world who are taught political THEORY and economic THEORY. Then we wonder why the world is politically and economically and morally in shambles...
"Even the poor student studies and is taught only political economy, while that economy of living which is synonymous with philosophy is not even sincerely professed in our colleges. The consequence is, that while he is reading Adam Smith, Ricardo, and Say, he runs his father in debt irretrievably."
I think there's no question organized education is the real enemy (I've even had professors who have professed this idea). It creates a world in which students learn little of substance from professors who may not know much, but double over in confidence from a piece of paper stating an idea so abstract as a "degree."
On a related note, I love "entry level" jobs that require a degree, or "2 years experience". If they're going to train you to do whatever you have to do anyway, why would you need two years of experience? If every place requires 2 years experience, how can anyone get experience? Never a brain or ability required; paper degrees and faux-credentials.
Hahaha. I've recently sought out dishwasher jobs where they've asked for prior experience. Prior experience? You mean you can't teach me how to wash dishes?
But, that's another fallacy of college. Supposedly it teaches you the skills you need to acquire a job. Haha, not quite. I wish people would realize that the only thing college is really there for is to teach you how to be a responsible human. Of course, that concept is too abstract to grasp. At least you can HOLD a degree.
They don't teach you how to be a responsible human any more than going out and working and living on your own for 4 years would.
School is a real expensive babysitting service. REAL EXPENSIVE.
You're definitely a fan of Thoreau if you believe in that. "If I have any experience which I think valuable, I am sure to reflect this my Mentors said nothing about."
School is worse than a babysitting service since it gives you false ideas. For every good idea you get in school, you're inundated by countless pernicious ones. Not to mention that the problem of drugs and promiscuity is a virtue that colleges promote (and one that follows the student throughout life). Children grow up with a sad, incorrect view of how an adult should act.
"I mean that they should not play life, or study it merely, while the community supports them at this expensive game, but earnestly live it from beginning to end. How could youths better learn to live than by at once trying the experiment of living?"
Where is that last quote from?
The first one is one of my favorites. "What old people say you cannot do you try and find that you can." For realz.
In the Economy section of Walden. Where he first lists his building expenses (it's about half way through Economy). It's right before his famous "We are in great haste to construct a magnetic telegraph from Maine to Texas; but Maine and Texas, it may be, have nothing important to communicate," quote.
Thoreau is an astonishingly wise mind.
By the way, I really enjoyed you blog post about Occupy Seattle. It opened up a lot of thoughts for me.
I wish Thoreau was still around. I'd love to read what he would have to say about what is going on now. Although, since he dealt with so much principle, so much still applies, so maybe it wouldn't make much difference.
Thanks. I appreciate that you took the time to read it.
the universities are more and more branches of lending institutions - schools are in the business of selling you classes (and the debt that goes with it).
College used to be regarded as a major method for improving a person's socioeconomic status. Now, it is frequently a noose around the necks of our educated. The idea that students loans cannot be discharged through bankruptcy is insane.
Eliminate loan guarantees. Eliminate the bankruptcy exemption. Yeah, it will be harder to get loans if we do that, but it would encourage students work harder and those that do will get funding but have an out if some unforeseen tragedy hits them or their families.
Totally agree with you mate. Borrowing 200k to go to a third or fourth tier law college indicates a general lack of smartness on the part of the borrower. Just because the money is there to be borrowed doesn't mean it should be.
The reason college tuition increases so fast is the government involvement: cheap and easy money, just like in housing market. The bubble will eventually burst.
It is a bubble. There's another aspect too - the private, for profit trade schools that are nothing more than student loan mills and lure students in with big promises of immediate job openings and job search assitance.
This was an interesting Frontline on vets being taken advantage of by these schools:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/educating-sergeant-pantzke/
When gasoline prices skyrocketed, people blamed corporate greed.
When tuition prices skyrocketed, no one was blamed. People just demanded free education.
I really don't get it.
Sadly while in school they suck you in to all sort of loans. I had to take out private loans. I graduated in 07 and have a job but does not pay nearly what I was told I would make. Also got smacked with a lovely student loan bill of about seven hundred a month.Thanks private colleges and all the sallies.
Are you suggesting that it is good for our society if virtually nobody attends college? Because that is what you have just proposed.
Please read the original post again. My first two points were: "Who forced the recipient to borrow the money? They could have worked and saved, then paid for college. They could have worked and paid as they went."
I'm all for college. Just not debt. There are numerous posts here giving examples of how they got an education with minimal or no debt.
My fourth child just graduated university with no debt, and #5 is on his way!
They could not have "worked and paid as they went." First, tuition has skyrocketed in the last 10 years and it is only the rare job that would allow somebody to work, pay rent and utilities, and pay for school at the same time. Consequently, the result for society would be the same: virtually nobody goes to college. Second, it is not ideal for society to have people working (except very minimally) and going to college at the same time. That produces people with college degrees but who remain without any real education. While there are certainly exceptions, the overwhelming majority of people who work full time and attend college at the same time will not have remotely maximized their educational potential. The result is still bad for society.
Your suggestion that people work and save until they have enough to pay for college is likewise completely unrealistic. How much do you think people with high school educations make? Why would it be good for society to effectively put off educating people until they are 30, 40, and 50 years old?
In the end, you need to ask yourself a question: why do you insist on making life difficult for yourself and others? I have observed this bizarre fetish among a certain segment of our population to insist that people struggle through things when we have the means to make them easier, and I just don't understand it. If I wanted to make my life more difficult than it had to be, I'd walk around with a 50-pound backpack strapped on my back.
The world is not black and white. Creativity rules, if you throw out biases like "college is too expensive" and "it is not ideal for people to work and go to college at the same time." We don't live in an ideal world. How to do it?
Those on the site who have commented on this approach - Would you please add to the list?
And lastly, what means do we have to make things easier? I thought this movement was anti-establishment? I see many posts from people for whom things were too easy - like three philosophy degrees and 30 years old. The best way to make things easy is to buck up when you're younger, learn that the best things in life are worth a little sacrifice, and do it.
Lest someone think I've had a golden spoon - hardly! I did have one good thing - someone who taught me the value of hard work. Nothing more.
We live in whatever world we create, ADemocraticRepublic. This is the very point. Pointing to the (skewed) world in which live and saying, "see"? is defeatist. We have the wealth to arrange our society however we see fit. It only comes down to a question of priorities.
How best to provide and pay for an educated society is not an individual problem. The answer is not to propose that individuals "get creative." These are social problems that require social solutions. Many other countries have systems in place for providing higher education that work very well. Their students emerge from university debt free. There is nothing socially beneficial about saddling people with debt to obtain a college degree or about dissuading them from going at all because of the cost. That's like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I sympathize with the students who have a lot of debt and now cant find a job. However, I would shelve this idea as goal for the OWS movement. You are going to alienate people who are tired of "bailing" people out.
You cant argue against one form of bailout and then turn around and ask for your own.
When I was a senior in high school, my college advisor told my mom, who was concerned about paying for it, that I could go anywhere I wanted and it was easy to get a loan for it.
How irresponsible to say to someone who only wants the best for her kids. My mom is still paying of mine and my brother's student loans but every time she tries to guilt trip us on that fact, I have to remind her that it was her decision and I would not have done the same.
I agree that your college advisor was wronge. He should have suggested applying to various scholarships before applying for student loans. But why not help your mom pay YOUR loan?
first off, I do have a few loans involved that I have paid off. Secondly, it is not MY loan, it was for me yes, but it is not a burden that I elected to put on myself. My mother took on that burden as a gift to me and I was largely oblivious at the time as to the ramifications. That said, this is the issue of responsibility, it is not mine. Lastly, despite my college education, I do not make enough money to contribute anything worthwhile.
You are talking about 18 year-old kids following a path laid out for them their entire lives, 18 year-old kids making important life decisions the ramifications of which seem far far away, condescend less.
I don't think I could flip enough burgers to make 20k a year for tuition and the 12k for food, housing and books. Also how does this model work for grad school? I guess we don't need anymore Doctors of internal medicine, or people with masters degrees when people like Rick Perry want to make all the jobs minimum wage service jobs. We can just order our military equipment from China, France and Germany. We can just import everything except our own tainted, factory farm slop. But just like in china, the rich will eat organic, and the poor will die young having only ever seen a doctor the day they were born.
Get a job! This is often the refrain of one that has a job, not one that has been unemployed for any length of time.
There is cultural expectation built into the education system. The promise of this culture is that if you educate yourself, you will become a valued and contributing member of society. To educate yourself is held to be a GOOD thing. So good, in fact, that this selfsame culture encourages, with a heavy hand no less, the acceptance of debt in order to acquire an education.
But the reality does not fulfill the promise. If the cultural expectation were changed to "every man for himself" then would so many people take on debt to get an education?
Some good points here. There are two aspects to an education - the accumulation of knowledge (what most people think about) and learning how to apply oneself to add or create value. Sadly, the second point is missed. I would rather hire someone uneducated who had a good work ethic than a person with college credentials who is not determined to apply themself for my behalf.
I'm not sure what I think about the student loan issue. It seems to me to be a contradiction to both oppose "Wall Street" and yet advocate for more access to post-secondary education. The latter being the presumed 'ladder' for many to climb into professions largely bound up with the former. While I feel sorry, to some extent, for those who have over borrowed I'm not sure what obligation it is on the part of society to make amends for the falsehood of the promise that their educational hoop jumping should directly amount to something. To some extent what's done is done and we'll bankrupt ourselves trying to make amends to all the ills of our forebearers that we perceive. Perhaps the best thing we can do is stop promoting that myth. There are college educated, and very bright, young people in India and China working low wage jobs for lack of opportunities for educated professionals. Perhaps its time we educate ourselves with a different strategy for success. When there are too many players then its time to change the game, right?
I do agree with the way you've framed this as a myth. Students are going to college and taking out big loans without thought becuase it is drummed into their heads by their parents & by our culture that "to be successful you must go to college" and the "best" (expensive) college you can qualify for.
Higher education didn't used to be "trade school" or job readiness training. But now people totally and unrealistically expect it to be.
Change in the culture is needed and when that happens the education bubble will burst.
The flip side of the student loan debate.
In my family, there are young people who decided not to go to college at all, simply due to the expense.
Fine, you might say, that is as it should be.
but suppose some of those kids are the next Jonas Salk, or the next great scientist who might cure cancer or the next great jurist like say, oh I don't like him, but I'll throw Clarence Thomas into the mix. Suppose the next Clarence Thomas can't afford college so he just becomes a burger flipper instead.
That is a net loss to society.
Yea, our nation and the world might survive with less philosophy majors but if we start losing brilliant scientists and history making legal minds, that is still a net loss for our nation.
Meanwhile, India and China educate their bright young people for free or for very low cost, and they are #winning. East indians come here and "take" wonderful jobs while our young people can do nothing but work at menial jobs or struggle with five and six figures of interest-accruing debt.
Can you see that?
Bill Gates and many other noteworthy people did not finish or attend college. You can do great things without a degree. If you are an innovative, intelligent, resourceful, passionate person, you will find away to make your mark on the world.
Yes, you're correct there are other options for the individual to become successful.
But I used scientists as specific examples because one cannot be a scientist without higher education. One cannot become a lawyer or a supreme court judge without higher education. And I think our country loses when we close off opportunities for the best & brightest to prosper. That is why I used Salk as an example. He gave back much more than he took from society.
true
If you're the "next Jonas Salk" but your family is low-income and poor, then if Harvard admits you, they'll pay for every cent of your education at their school.
If you're the "next Jonas Salk" and your family is wealthy, then there's no "problem" here.
It's only a problem if the "next Jonas Salk" comes from a middle-class family, not poor enough to receive need-based grants but not wealthy enough so that full freight is not of concern. But if the "next Jonas Salk" is really that, then he should be able to go somewhere on a merit scholarship. It won't be Harvard, but it'll be somewhere, and if he's driven, he'll find opportunities where he is, and he'll make the best of them.
Yea, I just mentioned that in my other reply. Full scholarships are rare. Hard to compete with India when they educate young people for free or very low cost and then export them here to work, or have them work for American companies in their own country.
"Cheap" schools are only cheap because government helps out. If we do away with all govt funding at all levels like some right wingers want to do, we would not have that option either.
Not necessarily. If we do away with federal funding of higher education, universities would be forced to run tighter shops. Grove City College (not my alma mater) receives no federal or state funding whatsoever, yet its total cost per year ($21,008) is about the same or even less than many public universities, which are at minimum state assisted!
And I believe Grove City College was (is) funded by one of those big, greedy Corporations - The Sun Oil family if memory serves. To think of the gall - contributing millions so that deserving students can have an affordable education, and bypassing the government. Those types of oil tycoons deserve death.... and taxes!
Or Berkeley one of the most prestigious public universities in the world where avg. tuition for an undergrad is 11,000.
"College" is a broad term. It can be something that is $3,000 per semester or $25,000. When someone goes to college, they need to look at their finances, as well as future earning potential for someone with the sought after degree, before taking out any kind of loan. I feel like the later is being ignored and that is extremely irresponsible.
I went to a state school and I took out a couple thousand in loans. I am fine with it and my degree was useful in what i wanted to do.
But, a state school is cheap because it is partially funded by the state let's not forget that! So it is not ridiculous for students in OWS to be thinking and asking that the govt "do something" to "help" with education costs.
Second, as far as science is concerned, none of the state schools in my state offer a great science program that would really prepare a science-talented kid to do anything worthwhile with his degree. the school I went to only offered a few science courses to fulfill general studies requirements.
Now the few really talented can probably get some private scholarship assistance, maybe even a full ride. But not everyone will get a full ride and may still not be able to afford the education they need to really have an impact in their field.
Also ironic is that athletes are given so much private scholarship money by schools. Scholarships should be academic only or at least, less luxurious for atheltics than they are now.
Truthfully, students should also be protesting on campus about these issues, I hope they do start doing that.
Agreed, schools truly are predatory lenders.
Athletics provide a sticky subject. On the surface, giving free money to athletes who aren't that bright seems unfair but then you have to look at the money that big sports brings into some schools that does all kinds of good.
And if he was the next Einstein, I'm sure he'd be able to indicate that to Harvard and what not and get aid.
What did Jonas Salk do? Did he force someone else to pay for his education? I don't remember reading that one.
Oh, I am savoring this response.
Jonas Salk went to City College of New York which was -- wait for it -- FREE when he attended. CCNY was founded in the 19 th century and offered a free college education to New Yorkers until they started charging tuition in 1976.
SWEET! Free Harvard for all now!
Okay dumbass, people in India and China are getting your jobs because they work twice as hard during their academic career. There's a running joke at my University which encapsulates the point I'm making. The only people you see in a library on Friday nights are yellow and brown. You can't have the high life and still expect to have a job waiting for you at the end of it.
Addressing another point you've made, college education in India ( at least) isn't really free. It's free in government colleges which everyone with money to spare seeks to avoid because teachers don't show up, are usually bored and underqualified and no learning really takes place there. That's one of the problems with a "free" education system. You don't get quality. Most of the "East Indians taking your jobs" are people who've gone to top colleges in India, paying top dollar and worked their socks off while at school. It doesn't fall in their lap just because they're brown and yellow.
No, the reason they are getting the jobs is because they are forced to work for less, have no voice in their political system, and have been led to believe that trickle down economics works. That is why the 1% constantly praise the China model and say that China is the future of globalization. A good example of this hypocrisy is Latin America. Corporations were first allowed to set up shop in Latin America with the promise that increased competition would lead to increased productivity and quality of services. Instead, Latin America was financially destroyed, imposed fascism to protect cooperate interest, then moved on to Asia once Latin America was forced to the bottom. This caused the influx of immigration to the US, and the decline of wages in the US. I agree that we should all take personal responsibility. I agree that I can't help someone who lives in shit because they refuse to pick up a shovel. However, this movement is based around those who are picking up shovels and are forced to clean up the banking cartels shit, and, to add insult to injury, shove our faces down in their sit with their boots on our necks. Get it?
Dumbass and what not.. .thanks for your response. When you communicate like that why would I think anything you say is based on reality?
@powertothepeople: The person "ks6" was angry at you for generalizing East Indians as a source of young and exploitable alternatives to American workers.
"KS6" is right, East Indian is merely a classification of race, not a measure of skill, work ethic, or natural ability.
Although, I must disagree with the "only people there on Friday nights" part. Respectively, I do see students of all races hitting the books.
I was pointing out that they arrrive here educated and prepared for the workforce because education is free or low cost in their country.
He is the one who stereotyped with his library story. Also, he said "losers die" in another thread. He seems angry.
As always when the topic of borrower vs lender responsibility comes up (it's really the same thing as the "predatory borrower" controversy in housing), I say the same thing:
Who gets the longer sentence? The dope dealer with a trunkload of drugs, or the small user with a dime bag?
It's easy to laugh at entitled rich kids who expect a cushy job offer for their masters in the semiotics of world of warcraft, but what about my friend who can't find a job with her nursing degree after 6 months of applying? What about the electrical engineer I stayed with when I visited Boulder, CO, who is doing an unpaid internship with a tech company?
Ideology in its purest, most naive form lies in mistaking a social condition for an individual problem. "Personal responsibility" is a favorite theme of the 1%. It is, ironically, the first thing that pops into the minds of our most irresponsible citizens, for whom it justifies every sort of petty selfishness. The concentration of wealth, occurring in part through the creation of a debt peonage system, will go unchallenged as long as people misapprehend it as the accidental outcome of personal choices. It is a political project, the result of deliberate policy decisions, and of economic forces beyond the control of any individual.
If personal responsibility has any meaning at all, it lies in the moral compulsion that every sane adult feels to fight back against the system.
What is this 99%? I thought I was in it, but I believe individuals should be responsible for their actions. According to this post, this makes me a part of a "political project" and too quick to judge. Personal responsibility does have meaning - it's very simple - take action to resolve your own plight, and don't even think the government or someone else should do it for you.
I strongly favor charity - but most of my assistance is directed toward those who are doing what they can, not those 'victims' sitting around waiting for someone else!
In debting the public for training of the public to work for the banks (who the student loans are ultimately paid to) is no different than being an indentured servant. It is what the banks practiced when they funded the colonization out if Europe, and it is this current system they implement to make us, the people, servants to their system. This debt will never be resolved because your working earnings can never be more than the inflation caused by the increased influx of credit to the public (driving down the valuevof the dollar) meaning that the student will always be indebted tobthe banking cartels. It is not about student responsibility. It is about usury and debt enslavement if the masses to continue their croni capitalist system. Interest free, government loans is a workable solution to this bubble crisis, but our current banking cartel government has no interest in solving this problem, but is heavily infested in keeping us, the people, under the tyrannical, usury system.
How about occupations that require 15 to 20 thousand dollars worth of college only to make $12.00/hr on the job? Sure it is still a choice, but why don't employers give employees a fighting chance to be able to repay their loans in a resonable amount of time and be able to put food on the table? If college is required, I would consider it a skilled position and should command a higher salary.
Another interesting fact about Jonas Salk:
"His sole focus had been to develop a safe and effective vaccine as rapidly as possible, with no interest in personal profit. When he was asked in a televised interview who owned the patent to the vaccine, Salk replied: "There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?"
What do you think would have happened today? He would have been the wage slave of a big drug company and....fill in the blank with your favorite ideological fairy tale ending.
I got a better idea....take the loans...don't pay them back...Steal the money from the banks that they've stolen from US. How do you like 'dem apples?
I want you to pay for my college. Why should you be able to hoard all the money? It is society's money.
My roommate is perfectly willing to pay back his student loans. Are you going to give him a job so he can?
Why should anyone "give" him a job. Perhaps he could earn one.
Is applying to every opening in the area and having a geology degree enough to earn one?
I'm sorry he's having a tough time. I can't comment on an individual, but there is more to getting a job than having a degree and applying for jobs. One must be careful not to extrapolate from a limited data set.
I believe there are unmet needs for both geologists and geological engineer, so maybe relocation is in order.
i owe 30,000 in student loans
I feel I will never have a job to pay it back
Try waiting tables. It's a start.
dish washer for two years
until my manager agitated my working conditions until I quit and replaced me with part time employees that don't receive health benefits
that was my most resent job loved organizing efficient methods of motions I was very proud of that job
What a maroon....right don't take the loans and don't get an education....pfffft Go crawl back under the rock you came from.
The book Demonic is on target. When one lacks substance or a credible argument, then personal attacks, name calling and mob behavior is the default for those who call themselves free thinkers.
Did you mean moron? Right, don't take the loans, if you don't accept your responsibility to repay them. I did not come from under a rock. I am widely read (I actually read whole books, too), and read different perspectives to continue to educate myself now that I've completed my college studies.
no I meant a maroon. It's a term from yesteryear. Obviously your education hasn't been in basic Americana. Haven't you ever watched your Bugs Bunny?
From Urban Dictionary, the most reliable, factual internet dictionary:
Maroon - A term of derision often uttered by Bugs Bunny when referring to an interaction with a dopey adversary. It is a mispronunciation of the word "Moron"
You're right, I didn't study Bugs Bunny in college. Did you? Hmmmmm.... Anyway, let's not bring BB into this, it's one of my favorite cartoon series.