Forum Post: Stop Playing at Politics
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 11, 2011, 10:01 p.m. EST by saturdaynightpolitics
(108)
from Cleveland, OH
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
While I am glad to see that the people of my generation are finally being awakened to the inequities of our society; it is truly lamentable that you are demonstrating not only our generation's naivete but complete lack of understanding concerning the political process and the economy.
If you want change, then have a message. If you want to be heard, be organized. If you want to throw the political equivalent of a temper tantrum, occupy Wall Street.
Stop wasting people's time with ineffective and symbolic protests that only demonstrate our generations' impotence.
Become an empowered citizen.
http://saturdaynightpolitics.com/blog/2011/10/nyc-protestors-hurting-crediblity/
the political system is just another failure of the economic system.
It only exists to regulate the free market. Since the free market has obviously failed and bought out the political system, the entire system can be seen as a systemic failure and must be rejected and redesigned.
Love,
Mim
The political process is the only real instrument of change in American economic policy. Your only alternative is to try to topple the government of the world's only military superpower, sacrificing our great balance of trade with the rest of the world with it, and rebuild from literally nothing.
That shouldn't be a hard decision. Politics is tough, everything else is tougher.
Free market didn't fail. Generations of Americans have by letting the country get Hi-jacked by the big banks and business in 1913, and not recognizing it since. Brought to you by the families of Rothchild, Rockefeller, Chase, Morgan, and others. Voted into law by the U.S. Congress on Dec. 23, 1913, signed into law by Woodrow Wilson, who later said he had regretted giving into the bankers. It expires Dec 21, 2012. --All true...Look it up.
I know all about the Federal Reserve system.
I'm from the UK, we've had the exact same system in place since 1684, I believe. It's called the Bank of England.
You think you are monetarily oppressed in the USA, you don't know the half of it.
It all needs to go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_England
100% agreed.
So who is to blame in all of this? Us or them? I have to say, like you alluded to, it is our own fault.
...
well you have the ignorant, and the willfully ignorant.
However, for many generations, until the advent of the Internet, which was really the first platform for completely free media on a global scale, information has been oppressed by those with monetary power.
This is not possible any more. Although they are currently trying to close down the free internet and replace it with a corporate one.
Right on about the internet. It is our greatest tool. We do need to stop using it for such trivial matters. I am truly amazed at how much of a role it now plays in the political process.
Indeed. The Coporate media has been complicit in this for a very very long time. FELLOW AMERICANS>>>Ever wonder why there are(well were) the 3 major networks? Not because it's open to competition I assure you. In fact most channels you watch now are owned by the same companies that own the other channels you watch now, who also probably own the music label your favorite artist is on. Oh yea, they also control the news you might happen to see also. Untill the internet that is!---EDIT--Oh I forgot...They also own the movie studio where your next favorite movies will come from.
Unfortunately our media is no were near free any longer. It could be worse though, most other nation's big networks are government owned. I would still rather see it run via free enterprise than be a tool of the government.
Well, MSNBC..owned at least still partially by GE. GE's Jeffrey Immelt, the jobs guy thingy or whatever post they made up for him at the White House. They are all owned by a very select group of people.
No you are right about that. Personally I wish we would go back to the era were local stations were owned by local people and provided local programing. National syndication has allowed our media outlets to be monopolized by a few individuals. That is why I get so mad that people don't read the newspapers anymore. Much of the material is syndicated but there are still a lot of local reporters, owners, etc.
We have to assume some reponsibilty as generations of people worldwide infact as all can now see. However the fault of evil deeds lies with those that do evil. Sadly most people do not understand what exactly they are up against.
Well said. But if a good man sits ideally by while evil prevails, won't evil prevail? Do you think we can take back our society? Or have we simply ignored it for to long?
Yes evil prevails in the abscence of good. I do not know if WE THE PEOPLE can, but I have not and will never loose hope. It is a world problem though, good news as eluded to above many many of our fellow people around the world are and have been aware for a while. Some have actually been trying to reach out to you..the U.S. citizen for many years, trying to warn you.
Right but the warning has to have a point. What would you warn the people about? I would warn about apathy, the number one problem our nation has.
Good start I would say.
I hate to self promote, but you seem like you would be fairly interested, I run a blog and have been trying to pass around my Empowered Citizen Initiative. It is just an article series decrying apathy in politics. If you want check if out https://www.facebook.com/pages/Saturday-Night-Politics/194650163906116
maybe it's a bit much to expect people to be fair in a greed based system
While your marxist rhetoric sounds inspiring, I can't see your point that the free market has failed. It has failed our generation and the 16% of American's that are underemployed but that doesn't mean a complete failure of the system. Your call for a total overhaul of the government smacks of inexperience and disenfranchisement. We can still effect change in our government through normal and legal means. But everyone has to stop turning a blind eye, not just sit around and protest. Work needs to be done.
I would suggest that trying a failed system again and expecting a different result is a very bad idea. I know work needs to be done. I'm not involved in this protest. I'm involved in other things. Overhaul of the system is exactly what is needed - it's a 300 year old system utilising modern technology. Society is not static, it's emergent, and must evolve with knowledge, not impede it. That is exactly what is happening right now, a stifling of human development due to static social systems like the political system, the banking sytem, the legal system, and the market system.
I agree, society and our government should not be static. But the system that is in place is dynamic and flexible enough to accommodate reasonable and rational change. Trying to go about and start over is a fools errand and an unreasonable expectation from these protests or any underlying principals within the movement. If we want real change, we need to change ourselves and come to terms with the way of the world.
oh, and I'm not a marxist.
Sorry, I did not mean to cast that aspersion, just that the rhetoric was reminiscent. I do apologize.
well, ideally, the best system possible would draw the best ideas from all known current systems and implement them all together to improve upon everything.
That is emergence. Using valuable knowledge and discarding discredited knowledge.
What kind of changes would you like to see?
Well for starters.
Abolition of all debt based currency.
Complete transparency of all governments, in budgets, agendas, and policy setting.
Worldwide effort to teach critical thinking and scientific method and raise educational standards for all, instead of spending money on weapons programs and defense. Especially in regions where religious indoctrination takes place (particularly in Taliban controlled areas in the middle east, and tribally controlled areas in Africa.)
Cancelling of all third world debt.
Eventually...
An end to artificial borders, or countries (fictional borders that serve only to create racism and/or xenophobia.)
A systematic scientific survey of all of the worlds resources upon which to base any market system. This would remain transparent, and self updating based upon usage and replenishment (through the use of modern computing and databasing techniques.)
An abolition of debt? Seriously? This is such an overplayed and ridiculous demand. Wiping out debt? It is a completely unrealistic goal. Not to mention wiping out debt also means millions of the "99%" losing their retirment funds.
And with the exception of promoting education, the rest would require a new global government. So much for patriotism and nationalism.
This is why I get so worked up about this, UNREASONABLE EXPECTATIONS! We all need to grow up and work towards measurable change. Pie in the sky idealism won't cut it.
"UNREASONABLE EXPECTATIONS! We all need to grow up and work towards measurable change." I couldn't agree more, and yet there is room to vent the idealism, too.
When it comes time to actually focus the demands and begin action, that kind of stuff will have very little place. But right now, it is not a statement about future intentions of the movement as a whole. It is not even an indication of where the movement will focus. It's just dreaming and venting; it's fine.
Right but you lose the support of a lot of people by not being able to articulate a reason behind the protests. I think that is part of why you are seeing violent protests popping up around the country (ie boston) because people don't understand the purpose of all of this.
There are growing pains. It's like a teenager going through puberty, and everything feels weird. Ok, they can't articulate it now, but there is still time. I keep cautioning that a) there is time, but b) we must still act with urgency. That means understanding and accepting the frailties of a nascent movement (i.e. unorganized and unrealistic bouts of mad emotionality), but pushing to do better.
In other words: don't stress the dumb stuff. Give that a pass for now. But encourage the smart stuff. It's good parenting, and it's good political activism.
That is such a cop out. I have heard that from a dozen people on here already. Just give it time is not an excuse. We are undermining our generation's credibility and showing what they already expect from us, incompetence. It is hard enough being a young person in this country without a group showing a lack of focus and experience.
It has been ONE MONTH.
By no means am I saying, "sit back, do nothing, and wait."
I am saying that maybe you have "unreasonable expectations" for a nascent political movement. You must know how long it takes for these things to become effective. It's not like in the movies, scene 1: kid has epiphany, scene 2: kid has bullhorn.
Stop making unreasonable demands of people. Encourage them to move forward, don't berate them for not moving forward at the pace of Hollywood scripting.
Hoping and believing that a group of people will get their act together will disappoint you. There are too many movements of the people that turn in to nothing because of a lack of direction. This is not Hollywood scripting, this is reality.
If it weren't hard, it wouldn't be extraordinary. You can't seriously think that all those political movements failed simply because they didn't want it bad enough. They failed because - even though they wanted that direction - it wasn't possible to get it quickly enough. You are still dealing with human beings - a huge number of them, with vastly different backgrounds and directions. And you don't get them all on the same page with a magic wand.
Make no mistake: there is every chance in the world that Occupy will fall apart. That's always a risk. But there is a middle ground between passively "hoping and believing they get their act together" and kicking and screaming that they are not getting their act together fast enough. By all means, be frustrated and get worked up. But control it when you talk to others. Don't vent and lash out at people who might be trying to find their way as quickly as they can.
If you think I have been venting or lashing out at anyone here, than you probably haven't read anything in this thread. Just because I don't agree with your viewpoint doesn't mean it is an attack. Politics is a touchy issue and I am about as evenhanded as they come.
That being said I am also fairly experienced in the realm of politics and know that you can't keep people motivated without focus. I am not expecting cohesion from a movement overnight, but if start without a plan finding your way is even more difficult down the line.
I've actually read many of your replies here, but like anyone else you've exhibited a variety of different moods. A lot of your comments were even-handed, and I haven't felt compelled to disagree.
Only, I flinched when you started saying "ridiculous" and using the dreaded all-caps. I felt like someone should drop-in and try to counteract that rising frustration, and then I thought, "well, I guess I could say something." I know I wish someone would do that to me, sometimes.
I absolutely agree that you can't keep people motivated without a focus, and I have been advocating for one non-stop. But I also believe you can't get people to focus by telling them their first few attempts are ridiculous, nor can you grant political newcomers the requisite experience in one month of unfocused protest. That is all I mean by "give them time."
I agree. I have alluded to the point in discussions with others but I think as a group, generation, whatever, we have stopped practicing politics in our everyday lives which is why there is so much catching up to be done. Unfortunately American politics have a steep learning curve that must be overcome. As far as the caps etc, it is frustrating when you get the same answers over and over that have very little thought behind them. Your responses have been great but there have been many people that just want to argue in circles advocating the same thing over and over regardless of any new information presented to them.
i didn't say it could be done overnight.
Patriotism and nationalism are part of the problem. They are ways people in power use to divide us. We are all one species. No nation is better than another. It's all an illusion.
Not that anybody is wanting an all powerful world government, either.
look up the lawfulbank.com for a way to create a debt free currency. Using their system to overhaul it is the best way to do it, in my opinion.
So, these expectations are not unreasonable. Just not enough people are working towards them yet. The numbers are growning, and so is the knowledge. Sticking with the system just won't cut it (sorry to irony quote you.)
Fair enough, Irony Quotes are great lol. I just have spent a lot of time working on political campaigns, studying politics formally and informally, and I supposed I am jaded in a sense that I know that any movement is doomed without focus.
As far as the rest, I really have to go at you about not wanting a world government while decrying nationalism and patriotism. It is not a matter that one nation is better or has more rights than another, but without the the international system you have two options, anarchy or NWO.
Thanks for the link on the currency system btw I will check that out!
So true, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Though more and more people have realized the injustice of the society, and protested, most still don't know what is the right way. voice, if diverse, will be weakened and hardly be effective. so, here, we suggest a possible way for your consideration.
People's voice should be consistently like this:
1) To the government and the capitalists: you are elits and were granted the capital and power based on our trust on you. However you abuse your wisdom for gathering your own wealth; you abuse your power and military force for maintaining your government. So, you have no right anymore in controling the capital and materials, and have no right in leading the army. You should either whole-heartedly serve the people, or give up and let those who have a higher wisdom as well as mercy to lead us and control the capital.
2) To all the monopoly : you should give up the aim of pursuing maximum profits, and change the aim into minimizing the costs and the labor time but should not fire the workers or reduce the payment for the reason of improved productivity and reduced costs. the enterprises are not yours, but us all human beings. If you feel reluctant to serve us all, you should leave your position and let all the people to chose the managers of the enterprises.
3) To all the citizens on the Earth: We should be united. We should all be benevolent and selfless, should advocate virtue and high spiritual pursuit. We should make the global enlightment and the global material and spiritual freedom our common goal and struggle for it whole-heartedly.
They occurred the power themselves. No one gave it to them and no one will give it to us.
You can't reduce labor time/costs without reducing manpower. The enterprises are theirs, not ours. While they have an inherit responsibility to their workers it is their companies, not the peoples.
Cheers! we could use more understanding in the world.
They occurred the power themselves. No one gave it to them and no one will give it to us.
You can't reduce labor time/costs without reducing manpower. The enterprises are theirs, not ours. While they have an inherit responsibility to their workers it is their companies, not the peoples.
yes, they did, but we call it they are "abusing" their wisdom... we should fight, not for justice, but for a better world....
they are wrong, because they occupied the resources that should have been well distributed to all. they disobeyed the equality, simply with their wisdom...
Thus, we should fight with our wisdom and power as well... no war is justice or injustice, we make wars, just for evolutions or changes....
I agree that we need to work for a better future but assuming that they are wrongly in control of resources is the wrong way to think about it. They came by these resources honestly through the system that is in place. Waging warfare against people who have gained power so that another group can gain the power is not different than it has been for all of mankind's existence. Don't try to make a class struggle into something more noble than a power grab.
the game rule is either fair or unfair, so the argument is invalid... people just want to change, to improve, to bring about a "better game" so as to make a more promising future for all the human beings, the 100%.... so, why not just do it... I guess you might be sort of rich, and attached to your current state, am I right... anyway, I suggest, a person with wisdom should always be detached....
Actually I have nearly no assets to speak of. I am not content with the state of things but assuming that other people's fortunes should be mine because a system of human construct if flawed is not fair to those that are winning the game either. You have a point that people with wisdom should be unbiased, but in a living breathing democracy like ours, complete detachment is neither desirable nor effective. Politics is a visceral and emotional thing that requires a certain level of involvement to achieve any desirable outcome.
I believe that this post is the best thing I have seen to effect change you must organize and threaten the Political Status Quo. I remember when ,yep I am an old guy, LBJ chose not to run rather than to face the humiliation of losing. He was undoubtedly one of the most Senior Members of the Good Ole Boy Club of Congress. Goes to show with the votes you can bring about the American Spring!!
I believe that this post is the best thing I have seen to effect change you must organize and threaten the Political Status Quo. I remember when ,yep I am an old guy, LBJ chose not to run rather than to face the humiliation of losing. He was undoubtedly one of the most Senior Members of the Good Ole Boy Club of Congress. Goes to show with the votes you can bring about the American Spring!!
Well lets hope this is an awakening for the younger generations that have essentially stopped caring about politics. What was it like back during LBJ's time, from your experience I mean.
Yes, seriously.
VOTE
If you don't, then your opponents will continue to use the democratic process against you.
You are absolutely right. Voting will be essential for any change.
It's disgusting that the Republicans and Democrats have such a strangle hold on the political process. They have a monopoly that always benefits the sides of special interests, and above all, the central bankers. If Americans truly understood what was going on with the Federal Reserve System, there would be a revolution overnight. http://ccapitalist.blogspot.com/2011/09/there-is-something-terribly-wrong-with.html
Interesting blog. Tell me what you think about mine! And PM me if you have any interest in a future collaboration or guest posting. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Saturday-Night-Politics/194650163906116
ahh but thats just it. not knowing the ins and outs allows for fresh thinking and new ideas. that is what we need, right?
We need innovation not blind ambition with ideals grounded in fantasy.
there are educated people in the process as well but new ideas are hard to pull from an old hand.
I am not arguing the fact that people need to come up with new ideas. In fact I believe everyone should get involved because that is how you get consensus and comprehensive change. Unfortunately this all seems to be more of an unorganized mess without direction. You can't get any ideas from a million people shouting their ideals blindly. There needs to be some order, a coherent message could solidify that. What ideas do you want to see come out of this?
LMAO dude we have gotten by with all of us shouting nonsense since the founding.
fair enough
The Message: Fight the Plutocracy, Vote for Democracy
The goal: A More Fair and Sensible Society
Four Demands: 1) Restructure Tax System; 2) Reform Wall Street and Bank practices; 3) Reform the electoral Process; 4) Reform parliamentary process in the House and Senate
Continue protests as they are useful as a way to attract attention to the Movement for A New America (or some-such name), Begin to educate people about the Plutocracy and how the Wealthy control the society. Begin to put out the word of forming 1000 Chapters of new Organization (NOT A POLITICAL PARTY< that will come later). The goal is to manifest 1000 chapters each self-sustaining. Members pay dues to show they are committed, also good way to keep out those who are not serious. Meetings of each chapter run by facilitator who uses a simple process (which might have to be taught). Majority vote best as consensus ultimately takes too long and too many people lose their enthusiasm and then you have no members; also infiltrators can easily fuck up your meeting), Goal of chapters is to educate people about the nature of what we are fighting and why and what we want. This all has to be delineated. Chapters can organize their own protests. And we can build to a grand demo in Washington DC and San Francisco just like in the Vietnam days. There can be smaller ones as well. Someone else suggested that we do Shut Down the Govt. but such Boycott takes some time to organize. We could get the Unions and Major Universities, and some others to join in. This whole thing needs to be sustained otherwise, it will die. People have to be in it for the long haul.
1)
You may have the most reasonable and well thought out plan I have heard from this organization all night. Thank you, unfortunately there is no leadership here, something that would have to be rectified.
This is after much thought on the matter, years even. I have been advocating protest like this for a long time. Organizing is the key. You need a chapter with some basic rules to guide you. Doesn't matter what you call it but I envision 1000 chapters representing basic ideology of a More Sane, Just, Fair and Sensible Society (is there an acronym in there somewhere?). Goal is to educate others. You attract people to your chapter by organizing protests. You will be surprised to see how many show up. The hard part is doing the grunt work which nobody normally wants to do. You need a passionate organizer to aid or lead. There should be a book on this whole process and there probably is although it is, no doubt, too erudite, boring, academic, and worthless. You need to know how to facilitate a meeting. Reach the Media. How to talk to people without alienating them, no ego here. Goal is to educate about Plutocracy, how too much wealth is in the hands of the few and how unfair and imbalanced it is; how dysfunctional the political system is; how we need to redress these problems with reforms, taxes. Forget talking about ideology. If you want to talk about ideology, talk about it in general terms. This is a joint experiment in real democracy. Plan a Demonstration. You can do it. Be creative and organize one and then build a chapter. Easy as making a pie. Try it and see if you like it. This is how you learn and how you get involved. You will find out if you are truly committed. I would love to come and be a teacher and organizer but it might be hard with this inchoate group with not enough consensus although there may be a group working behind the scenes. Good luck.
I won't lie, I am biased to your thinking. Especially about the education part. I run a website devoted to political education in non-partisan terms. I actually, just started a citizen empowerment initiative. It is still in its infancy but I would love your input if you would check it out. http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-at-politics/
"complete lack of understanding concerning the political process and the economy."
this is a solid argument as why people do not find the economy fair
how are they supposed to prosper in a system they can't even understand ?
further, why should they be beholden to others that made up the rules
that they are unable to understand?
Stop wasting people's time
It should be more transparent but at the same time if you don't understand something it is your duty to find out about it or find someone who does. I can't even pretend to understand all of it but I am not about to sign on loan that has terms I don't get.
What really get's my goat is the unrealistic expectations of this group that has the potential to make an impact but seems to lack the will.
if I make up something
it is not your job to understand what I made up
a want a system that I can understand and others can aswell
and certainly not a translator telling me what it says
You can't just wash your hands of it and say that someone else made the system up. This has taken generations of American's to build. It is all of ours. It needs reforming but we all need to step up to the challenge.
the law books have become so thick that no one can read them all
we are given books about on own health care issuance
we need short contracts
the ledgers tell us we are in more debt than we will ever pay
A smaller government and simpler government is defiantly part of the solution but from a pragmatic standpoint I don't know if we could simplify everything. There are reasons why our government and it's laws have become so complicated.
the size has little to do with simplicity
That doesn't even make sense. Could you please clarify that?
the sun fuses hydrogen by pressure and heat
that a pretty simply system for such a big mass
the government could provide health care to all if that is a public system paid by taxes it's simple and straight foward
People are not molecules or atoms. Each person has their own views, needs, and wants. I know you want the system to be simpler but you are oversimplifying things to promote your own view. Just because you want it one way doesn't mean it can actually work that way. The healthcare system included, it just isn't that simple. How would you simplify this mess?
I try not to use the word you in posting on forums
How is providing healthcare complex
if a doctor has a patient, they help them
Right, but medical equipment/medicine/medical training is expensive and complicated. Not to mention trying to make sure people aren't using the system for ill gotten narcotics, falsifying information, or even faking ones death. There are literally millions of other contingencies that could arise. Any human interaction is complicated.
fair enough
but that wouldn't be any different if the government was smaller
it was not my intention to tie those two things together. Sorry about that. You are right about that.
this doesn't seem to be a game but an awakening...
But in our fast food culture, can great awakenings actually happen? I thought our nation awoke after 9/11 and the 2008 election, but that has proven to be wrong. Why do you think it is an awakening?
Watch....the next few months seem like they will be interesting to say the least.... Watch these protests become the new hoovervilles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooverville
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfylLnHjcu0
Let's hope so. But with such a awful field of political candidates, this inertia may be squandered.
i dont care about the candidates.... this is bigger than an election....there is a reason there is no leader of #OWS....Leaders Suck...
leaders allow organizations to function. If you can't see that than there is a problem.and btw leaders don't have to be politicians or the wealthy, just impassioned and empowered citizens.
Leaders "used to" allow orgs. to function....look where that got us.....the revolution is open source Baby
That is a catchy theme that denotes anarchy. Don't misunderstand this is not a personal attack. This is the whole reason I started this thread is because of unrealistic expectations. Beliving that a large group can function without leadership is naive.
not anarchy...Direct Consensus Democracy
Direct democracy cannot work in an society our size.
“If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.” ― Sun Tzu
Sun Tzu also says that you should be prepared to go to war yourself. Being incompetent and feigning incompetence are two wholly different things.
You are correct. Question is, are the protesters prepared to go to war ? Are they just feigning incompetence ? I don't have the answer to those questions my friend.
And any one reading this, It's metaphorical. I'm not advocating Violence or War and i doubt saturdaynightpolitics is either.
You are right, I don't encourage violence, this is a metaphor.
I do worry though that this isn't feigning incompetence, it is real incompetence. The lack of civic will throughout this country I think demonstrates the point.
I'm worried about the same thing. The way i see it is like this ... If the Unions take over or ( insert political candidate or party ) The OWS movement is dead. Until that happens, and i hope it doesn't, i think will keep growing and getting stronger.
Do you think the movement can move forward without more focus?
I do believe that the OWS movement will accomplish it's goal of ending the corruption in our government. Campaign reform and removing the lobbyists and special interest groups from Washington. Removing the ability to buy our politicians. I think those are the things that most agree on and they do address the problem. Take big business out of politics and give it back to the people... Anything is possible after that.
So i guess the short answer is yes. =)
I admire your optimism, I don't know if I am so inclined though. I have seen a lot of good causes fail thanks to a lack of organization. I do have to make one comment though; while many special interest groups have managed to bloat our government, lobbying is a critical part of our governmental process. It needs reform and curtailing, but lobbyists do allow segments of society to have a voice that would otherwise be ignored.
No one wants to silence the voice of special interest groups or corporations. Merely take away the ability for them to throw piles of money at our politicians. Also, most know these groups can't be trusted, much like our politicians. Limiting contact between our politicians and Lobbyists / special interest groups to open public forums where the people can keep an eye on these groups and the spoiled little brats in Washington seems to be a popular idea as well.
Fair enough, it is going to be hard to keep the process open. We already have plenty of legislation making our politician's finances public and they still manage to take ill gotten funds and pervert the system.
Sorry it took so long to reply. I was looking for a couple posts that talk in depth about Campaign Reform. Sadly i couldn't find them, i think they are for ever lost in the sea of spam on this message boards.
If you are interested in what people think about Campaign Reform, you should start a thread and ask. =) The ideas that are most popular seems to be funding political campaigns with tax dollars and making donations of any kind illegal or limiting them severely.
It's preferable “to play the policies” as you said, than to pursue a policy which had a bad idea...
Right, but there are solutions, they may need work, but they are worth working over. Without leadership, organization, or a goal the movement will peter out and be forgotten without making any positive impact.
the problem either are not the idea but their applications, I agree…
On the one hand, I was just down at Zucotti Park, and yeah. This isn't a movement, yet. They don't have anything in place; they're still working out protocol for how to teach newcomers and visitors who they are, and they don't actually know exactly what they're going to teach those newcomers.
On the other hand, it's been one month. They will need to get their act together quick to maintain this as a movement, but there is time. The protests are ineffective now, but that's how they all start.
Right, but not having a message will only drive away the less motivated and the tourists. I just worry that our generation is coming off as unrealistic lay-abouts who want to smoke pot in Zucotti Park and bitch while not offering a solution.
They are. But they will awaken. I believe it.
Give it time. Urge them forward, but give them time. First comes the will, second comes the way.
I certainly hope you are right
specialists are indeed part of the problem but they will also serve as part of the solution. if you can't design a system where everyone can thrive and therefore be educated thoroughly and correctly then you can never expect everyone's civic input to be valid. Education is required and for now we need engineers to design cities that can sustain us without causing the horrendous damage to the planet we do now, so that our children will have an opportunity to pursue the finer things in life and not worry about a desolate waste land of a planet that we will no doubt leave behind. I have two children and I find it is my god given duty to fight for what I know to be right. But I feel it is just as important to explore solutions that can actually work and can be practically implemented. You can't expect everyone to understand politics overnight. You have to redesign from the ground up and change will follow with the coming generations. It may never be easy for me, but if my children can live and learn in a free and just world that is good enough for me.
That is a really great way to look at it. We do have a responsibility to leave this place better for our children. I must clarify, I did not mean to say that specialists don't have a role in all of this but I was trying to make the point that average people need to engage. Check out this book if you have a chance it is a hard read but very important to this whole idea http://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Politics-Reconnecting-Citizens-Public/dp/0812219317
True, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
The vast majority of the American public is not behind us...yet. It is ill-advised to enter into an uphill fight in a flawed political system before that is so. It is equally unwise to be formulating demands. Each new demand is an opportunity for a potential ally to dismiss us as not representing their perceived interest. The only thing that the 99% will be able to unify behind during this period of distortion and misrepresentation is the belief that, in this country, people have the right to peacefully assemble and speak their minds. This is the totality of what should be done. This act alone is intolerable to the 1% and their functionaries. It is more than enough to create the violent repression that will bring new individuals into the movement. Civil disobedience beyond this simple scope is premature. This is a long fight, breaking the law and inconveniencing the 99% will not create empathy. Disobedience should only be exercised to the extent necessary to defend our right to freedom of assembly. I demand only to exercise my right to peacefully assemble in a public and accessible location and to voice my dissent. Everything else is incidental.
First off, I, in no uncertain terms am advocating any illegal or illicit behavior. But I can't agree with you. The system is flawed because of individuals, not by design.
Expecting a change by simply expressing discontent is nonsense, it is just not how things work. Working toward a measurable success means the movement could keep up steam, not dwindle away due to lack of direction.
Oh, and how is it that these protests are intolerable to the 1%
Incidentally could you tell me how to start a thread in this forum?
I am empathetic to your argument but frankly hold to my earlier position for the exact same reason you hold yours (I think it would hurt the movement to try and articulate a platform of demands) AT THIS STAGE. I am happy to debate the merits or lack there of in our political system however you should at least concede that those individuals currently have a vice grip on the political system.
I take it you didn't see them clear Boston..
First off, as far as post go I think you just hit the post button. This whole discussion here is just a thread in the big forum (if that was a source of confusion).
Second, I will conceded that people are concerned about the protests (but mostly thanks to the spectacle of it all, NOT because of any real power) As far as Boston is concerned, violence is power, but not the kind you want to use.
Thanks, didn't realize that was a button...
Spectacle could be useful in drawing others to the movement. That lack of real power is not going to be amplified by a list of demands only through growth of the movement. I am not advocating violence of any kind my point was it must be intolerable because they cleared it. Which I admit is a weak argument however power comes from numbers.. I assure you if there were say 1 million people occupying lower Manhattan the powers that be would be immediately forced concede to as yet unformulated demands or engage in a very public denial of our rights to peaceable assembly thus exposing the 99% to the reality of the current system. Namely that it does not serve their interests and is kept in place through violence and distortion.
I really don't think so. Look at the Tea Party, they were the force to be reckoned with a few years ago and now they have been all but absorbed by the GOP. The unions and democrats could do the same with this disorganized lot. Without cohesion it will fail no matter how many people show up.
Personally I think that will happen when this movement ISN'T a disorganized lot.
Only because no one will want to have anything to do with it.
it must be redesigned by people with technical experience and know how. Engineers not economists, Physicists not politicians. Of course, politics is an inevitable and natural part of life, but the system in which we have used to express it is indeed horribly flawed. Don't expect to find anything better however until we start changing the way we treat our home planet.
Specialists are part of the problem already though. We have all forgotten how to be engaged in civics. I can't say much as I have a degree in political science, but the fact remains is that we need to hear from Main Street. People need to practice politics in their everyday life and not simply leave it up to the engineer, statisticians, and pundits.
if you want the same eroding rights- say nothing if you want to empower those that disempower the majority- be the opposition.
These people are just letting the world know that the system needs to change. You can not grow if you are not visible. We've silently been held prisoner for 30 years or more and now are out in the light and see that it isn't just one person that's upset. In one month could you cure the ills of a system that you respect or would you want to join, talk and work together towards a solution? Seems to me these people are doing it right.
There is nothing to a movement that has no purpose. In fact this only serves to demonstrate how out of touch the youth and the public as a whole has become to how politics actually work in this country.