Forum Post: Something tells me that if the occupy movements are not successful then right wing fascism will take root in this country.
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 18, 2011, 10:01 a.m. EST by abmebratu
(349)
from Washington, DC
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Throughout history every time there is an extended period of economic depression there is invariable the rise of fascism. We have seen this in Germany. Spain, Chile, and Italy. one of the characteristics of right wing fascism is anti-immigrant politics, antisemitism, and other racialism. To be more specific, in recent times, in the United States, we have seen right wing commentators in the corporate media whip up racial antagonism between Latino communities and African American communities. This is done in order to deflate anger from the population directed at the current economic reality/structure. For example we are mislead to think that Immigrant Latinos are a threat to the African American community, in terms of competition for jobs. This issue of superficial race competition can also apply to other racial groups in the U.S. Eventually if economic recession deepens frustrations will arise that are much more potent than the ones we see now. Most of this protest will be directed at the current defunct economic structure. However, those in power, unwilling to reform and generally recalcitrant will use their monopoly of information to divert the issue of a failing economic system towards demagoguery, much like we saw in Nazi Germany and others. No one with a right mind would want that of course, but inevitably the ruling class will choose this path reflexively, if it means it will preserve the current unfair economic set up, which is rigged heavily in their favor, and which the vast majority wants to see reformed. In fact, there are currently well financed right wing think tanks and groups seeking to centralize power and make decision making more spontaneous. One reason for his has been capital's realization that democracy has many burdensome features to the plutocracy. These features include having to deal with a meddlesome public, regulations, and of course, however limited it may be, some kind of accountability. In these times of prolonged economic down turn, the wealthy ruling class would see to make sure the population is divided, afraid, ignorant and antagonistic towards racial groups....... Therefore the best way out of a possible dissent into fascism for America is to support all inclusive movements such as the 99% and OWS. I doubt very much that this economy will create a surplus anytime soon. There is no Wold War II to revive our economy this time. Therefore, we must think long and hard as citizens about the best way forward. We must avoid at all costs what happened to Germany after 1929. They went form the spotlight of western civilization to the depth of barbarism never before seen in human history.........That's why I support the Occupy movements, because it's anti racist. It is largely secular, but also respects religion, and most importantly it addresses the systemic problem faced by our nation and the world.
It already has taken root.
Example: Fascism in Germany took years to take hold. It had a subtle approach first. It lulled people into a false sense of security before it blew up in everyone's faces. Maybe history is repeating itself her as well. Remember we just assassinated/executed a citizen without due process of law. I'm referring to the Yemeni American cleric we just killed in an air strike. I mean we still have the patriot act. Our government is unresponsive to the demands of people. Almost every poll suggests people want something and our government wants something else. This seems to me like the slow creeping up of fascism in this country. Call me whatever, paranoid, lunatic, crazy. I don't care, I expect it....But you and I know there has been a significant regression of moral values in this country. People need to get off their lazy buts and do something. That includes me too.
Yeah it has: CIA killed JFK, Gerald Ford was on the Warren Commission to cover it up, Ronald Reagan was on the Rockefeller Commission on CIA Activities in the US, which covered it up; Bush was head of the CIA and has been implicated in the assassination. All of which is another reason why democracy doesn't work and we need technocracy. ABOLISH MONEY!
http://666ismoney.com/JFKWEB.html
There are other countries besides the USA. We cannot just abolish money unless everyone else agrees. Let's start with what's possible in the short term.
I agree with you....The creation of capitalism as we know it today has been an evolutionary process. I also expect that whatever is going to replace Capitalism is going to come evolutionary. It will happen in waves and not one full sweep.
Most of the ppl in the world live on a few dollars/day, it would be good if mexico & canada joined us too. If we educated our children about eliminating money we could do it. There could be a transitionary stage where we educate ppl to the practicality & possibility of eliminating money and set up work schedules, build houses in farm areas where ppl could live when harvest time comes around.
I'm curious. What is technocracy? Democracy is pretty messy but holds out hope to so many around the world. How would technocracy work? What does technocracy look like?
The technocracy movement has been around for awhile. Most of 'em believe in eliminating money. During the 1880's they were very strong and merged with the Populist party:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy
[Removed]
We need an all inclusive people's movement to bring some sense into the system. Otherwise I'm afraid a prolonged economic downturn will turn our society more racist, more reclusive, more reactionary, and rigid, which are all the characteristics of fascism.
Fascism is more the liberal point of view, the government is the provider and ruler, we need it to help us. The conservative point of view is small government with limited powers and more liberties for citizens (not that that is how the Republican party has acted). These points of view hold true to the dictionary definitions of liberal and conservative. Hope that helps.
I'm sorry, but if you remove all the rhetoric from both parties what will be revealed to you is that both parties have fascistic tendencies. I know republicans talk about small government, but the reality shows that government has gotten bigger under almost every republican leader, including Reagan. So, please leave the rhetoric aside, we all know both parties, no matter what they say, end up creating a bigger government. This is the inevitable crisis of capitalism. It naturally leads to monopoly of capital and politics.
yes though Republicans ≠ conservative.
You are so uninformed. Fascism is anti-communist, anti-egalitarian, militarist, nationalist authoritarianism. It is a right-wing ideology.
Your "conservative" is neoliberalism, and has been an abject failure for the past 30 years.
maybe I am misinformed, I can see a shred of insight in your response but I need more to better understand.
Ok, and I'm sorry if I over-reacted. This is one of the most pernicious memes of the Tea Party era, and seeing it in print still feels like a personal attack. There was a right-wing book written several years ago that made this claim, and it was latched onto by your compatriots.
I think I can find an article by several prominent historians refuting the author thoroughly, but actually have to run to a meeting so will try to post it later.
In the meantime you might check out fascism in Wikipedia and see if it really sounds like what liberals/progressives are thinking, when they basically want to go back to the 40s-70s USA in terms of government and the social contract.
I don't really believe Fascism in something any would invite. It's definitely the product of economic failure but just as in Hitler's case, it will not be promoted by elitists but rather directed at the elitist, who controls all wealth.
This is a good summary of the piece(s) refuting Goldberg's work, and contains a link to the entire (long) series of articles: http://oldhickorysweblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/refuting-jonah-goldbergs-crackpot.html
Right, left, what's the difference - who decided these terms, do you even know? But you are right, it 's definitely all of those things and a whole lot more.
I think it's important to note that neoliberalism represents massive expansions of government and bureaucracy, because the corporate machine in effect becomes the government. Big government is a natural response to a large population, but smaller, state-run government could deal with it just as easily.
I think it's important to note that Neoliberalism is but a word. Such a statement as yours can easily be refuted - the corporate machine IS our government. And I don't generally refer to them as Neoliberals, do you?
The Fed government, in its inception, was intended to address four specific areas of national concern. It has grown far beyond the intended purpose because all government is self-promoting.
Hmm, that is a good clarification. I believe you're right.
Oh IC Conservatives are for small Gov't like the MIC right? So called Conservatives are for FASCISM and if you don't believe it then your an idiot.
I will just say that there are very few actual conservatives in government. The Republican party expands the government just as liberally as the Democrats. It is insults like that that will drive away any chance of you ever really representing the 99%.
What many fail to realize is that minorities, due entirely to economic circumstance, are very conservative themselves.
Nah, he's absolutely right about Fascism.
Well stated. Those who are antagonistic towards OWS are simply people who are satisfied with economic achievement at the expense of someone else. Of course they don't see it that way, but gutter level ethics and morality play a large role in being successful in unregulated capitalism. In addition, the smoke and mirrors required to maintain a monetary system based on faith rather than a real standard such as gold, gives the charlatan a lot of room for creating 'sting' operations on the gullible. But the warning has always been there: "buyer beware". With the advent of the credit card, there was now a system of smoke and mirrors covering the smoke and mirrors of the absurd monetary system based on faith. Get rid of credit cards and the system implodes.
It has already happened. Currently we are fighting against facism.
Oh that pendulum, always swinging....
Once Octavious is the sole general in Rome, Marc Anthony is his only Rival, So Octavius rallies Rome against Marc because Marc had willed his inheritance to non-Romans, his Egypt born children. And that is how Octavius became sole Emperor of Rome.
"you know Antony lost it
while loving in Egypt
('Cause Rome was fascist baby!)
the cost for su-icide romance
.
He read Mark's will to the public forum
Antony's heirs were born foreign
Octavius used this to enrage citizens
to preside over all Rome province
.
so control of Rome would now be honed
by one Emperor's hands
Octavius alone would own the shores
on the Mediterranean "
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055370934&page=21
The right wing is better than the left but not much. The OWS message has been sent. Even if they disperse their effort will still be worthwhile. I hope they don't though. I am starting to really like some of you people :)
The "wealthy elite" are the ones who encourage illegal immigration, in order to have a cheaper work force
The racial divisions (divide and conquer) aspects of this are only a bonus for them
Wow, very disturbing...
I've never thought about if OWS doesn't succeed... scary... yes it's hard to make those who have power, relinquish it...
We need our Gandhi...
:(
We have been mislead by Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, Bush Jr, Obama, and nearly every other public figure. Economic growth, job creation, and actual prosperity are not necessarily a package deal. In fact, the first two are horribly misunderstood. Economic growth/loss (GDP) is little more than a measure of wealth changing hands. A transfer of currency from one party to another. The rate at which it is traded. This was up until mid ’07′ however, has never been a measure of actual prosperity. Neither has job creation. The phrase itself has been thrown around so often, and in such a generic political manner, that it has come to mean nothing. Of course, we need to have certain things done for the benefit of society as a whole. We need farmers, builders, manufacturers, transporters, teachers, cops, firefighters, soldiers, mechanics, sanitation workers, doctors, managers, and visionaries. Their work is vital. I’ll even go out on a limb and say that we need politicians, attorneys, bankers, investors, and entertainers. In order to keep them productive, we must provide reasonable incentives. We need to compensate each by a fair measure for their actual contributions to society. We need to provide a reasonable scale of income opportunity for every independent adult, every provider, and share responsibility for those who have a legitimate need for aid. In order to achieve and sustain this, we must also address the cost of living and the distribution of wealth. Here, we have failed miserably. The majority have already lost their home equity, their financial security, and their relative buying power. The middle class have actually lost much of their ability to make ends meet, re-pay loans, pay taxes, and support their own economy. The lower class have gone nearly bankrupt. In all, its a multi-trillion dollar loss taken over about 30 years. Millions are under the impression that we need to create more jobs simply to provide more opportunity. as if that would solve the problem. It won’t. Not by a longshot. Jobs don’t necessarily create wealth. In fact, they almost never do. For the mostpart, they only transfer wealth from one party to another. A gain here. A loss there. Appreciation in one community. Depreciation in another. In order to create net wealth, you must harvest a new resource or make more efficient use of one. Either way you must have a reliable and ethical system in place to distribute that newly created wealth in order to benefit society as a whole and prevent a lagging downside. The ‘free market’ just doesn’t cut it. Its a farce. Many of the jobs created are nothing but filler. The promises empty. Sure, unemployment reached an all-time low under Bush. GDP reached an all-time high. But those are both shallow and misleading indicators. In order to gauge actual prosperity, you must consider the economy in human terms. As of ’08′ the average American was working more hours than the previous generation with far less equity to show for it. Consumer debt, forclosure, and bankruptcy were also at all-time highs. As of ’08′, every major American city was riddled with depressed communities, neglected neighborhoods, failing infrastructures, lost revenue, and gang activity. All of this has coincided with massive economic growth and job creation. Meanwhile, the rich have been getting richer and richer and richer even after taxes. Our nation’s wealth has been concentrated. Again, this represents a multi-trillion dollar loss taken by the majority. Its an absolute deal breaker. Bottom line: With or without economic growth or job creation, you must have a system in place to prevent too much wealth from being concentrated at the top. Unfortunately, we don’t. Our economy has become nothing but a giant game of Monopoly. The richest one percent already own nearly 1/2 of all United States wealth. More than double their share before Reagan took office. Still, they want more. They absolutely will not stop. Now, our society as a whole is in serious jeapordy. Greed kills.
That's a really well written piece. But obviously you do not occupy the lower echelons of our economy or you would realize that the Latino population is a very real threat to the average African American.
I sense some paranoia here...
Fascism will not take root in America - it already exists in America.
And it's not the Plutocracy that will pit one against the other but the desire for resources that will pit one against the other.
Fascism under such dire economic circumstance is deemed acceptable. And it's the only solution. The coming War is inevitable.
I protest to believe fascism is the ultimate cradle of humanity.......Fascism is usually a short term intense reactionary onslaught by those already in power or more or less on the periphery of power.
It requires a voluntary machine and that machine is us.
Yeah, without OWS there might be a group blaming the jew bankers for Americas trouble. They might even get support from the ANP, or the CPoA. Heaven forbid.
Oh, look, must be from the future-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLSvK2eIoBs&feature=player_embedded#!
Didn't that guy show up at a Teabagger protest? Quick, someone check him for guns!
Seriously, it's the same race card play used to discredit the Teabaggers.
Difference is, there is actual evidence within OWS of anti-semitism.
We can expect a few tinfoil hat types to show up. Something this big and loud draws weirdos like a turd draws flies. Unfortunately, Faux News is gonna go looking for them.
True true.
Heh, maybe even a handful of those lugnuts that claim that the human race is being manipulated by disguised space lizards. Hoboy, is that far flung or what? Winter is coming, lizards would be going into hibernation, including lizards from outer space.
LOL. I forget his name, Frank Chu maybe, but he is by far the most entertaining protester ever.
edit - yep, Frank Chu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Chu
One of his signs....
Impeach Clinton 12 Galaxies Guiltied to a Zegnatronic Rocket Society
huh???
Oh dear.
That guy has a few screws loose, doesn't he? The rest seem to have fallen out.
Is greed really good?
Doctor discovers cure and prevention of AIDS. Sells discovery for $5,000,000,000,000. Same doctor discovers cure and prevention of heart disease. Sells discovery for another $5,000,000,000,000. Same doctor discovers cure and prevention of Alzheimer. Sells discovery for another $1,000,000,000,000. Breast cancer. Brain cancer. Skin cancer. Bone cancer. Colon cancer. Pancreatic cancer. Cervical cancer. Ovarian cancer. Testicular cancer. Banks cover all related investments by the health care industry. Nobody stops to consider that the lower 99 percent combined could never afford such expensive cures. The richest one percent agree to purchase the bulk of material assets along with millions of unsold homes for ten percent of market value. After a two year spike in revenue, the health care industry tanks. The vast majority have gone bankrupt in a desperate attempt to cover those incredibly expensive cures. The profits made in the first two years were nowhere near enough to cover the $20,000,000,000,000 doctor payoff. The largest debts in world history go unpaid. All major banks fail miserably. Followed by every major industry. Unemployment spikes to 90 percent in all of the G20. The global economy tanks. Chaos breaks out worldwide. Meanwhile, the richest man in the world by far, buys an island and hires a small army to protect his $20,000,000,000,000 fortune. 5000 jobs are created. More as the richest one percent worldwide hire additional security. Unemployment drops to 80 percent across the developed world. Widespread chaos remains. Entire cities burn to the ground. The masses finally converge on the richest one percent in every corner of the world. As the bodies pile up, disease breaks out worldwide. When the dust settles, and the bodies rot away, only a few hundred million remain worldwide. Those few hundred million survivors must find a way to get along and rebuild. Hopefully, with a more reliable and ethical system of economics.
The answer is hell no. Greed kills..
Why do hippies always use the word fascism? Do you even know the proper meaning?
Fascism is largely defined by by "The merger and consolidation of government and corporate interests". It is usually coupled by intense nationalism, xenophobia, and fear mongering.
Seems to me that definition is a pretty good match for what were seeing in this country today.
Fits the bill.
I know, Too bad some people are ignoring this trend, which has been building in our country slowly. We must confront the system and reform it. It's headed for a cliff.
Hippies? WTF? There are no hippies anymore. You right wing trolls have to stop with this stupid shit you spew.
BTW, I ain't no hippy buster, get it straight. I was a wall street trader with Lehman Bros...
Do you? What we have RIGHT now is a form of participatory fascism. Here is a good article for you to read:
http://mises.org/daily/5752/The-Fascist-Threat