Forum Post: Solutions no one likes, but are the only ones that will work part 1
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 22, 2011, 5:21 a.m. EST by matoinyanawacis
(157)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
If you wish to get the attention of the the massive corporations and upper 1% and let them understand just what damage they are doing to jobs, the middle class and the economy, then you must occupy the one place they are the most afraid of losing control of, their wallets. If you wish to impress upon them your dissatisfaction with their raping of our living standards, then you must begin to affect theirs. You affect their living standards by impacting their profit margins. You impact their profit margins, by refusing to buy, use, pay rent on or subsidize any of their products, endeavors or business interests. Yeah, I'm sure we'll all die because we just can't give up our foreign made, assembled and serviced goods like cell phones, ipads, internet services and numerous other examples. The banks repossess your home, well then repossess them back. If you paid your rents in good faith, yet you still got your house stolen by the bank, then the bank is not entitled to your house. Yeah, extreme I know... Point is, the rich will continue to get richer so long as we continue to subsidize them with what little money we try to survive on. They in turn use your money to buy more politicians to take even more of your money from you so that they can pay no taxes and make themselves even more filthy rich. I know, the problem is very few Americans can conceive of sacrificing their few remaining comforts and technologies in order to reprimand the rich. That is why the rich and corporations will win. To win, we as a nation need to keep our money away from the corporate collectors... Humans only a have a few TRUE needs... Food, Water, Air and an way to protect ourselves from the harsher elements of nature. Companionship can also be a need for some, but overall, doesn't tend to be life threatening. Throughout the century's humans have banded together to create "Communities", not societies, "COMMUNITIES". These were created for the betterment, safety and growth of ALL, not just a privileged few. Capitalism, is the polar opposite of Community. Now don't go jumping to Conclusions, Community does not mean Communism. I am Native American, and one thing I can tell, no Native Commune has ever been compared to Communism. Of course, I'm sure there are a few idiots out there now who plan to do just that after reading this, go figure... someone taking the truth out of context and rewriting their own interpretation to the truth...I'm so surprised...! America was founded with the deliberate intention of making the playing field level for Everyone. Problem was at that time, anything but a white person wasn't considered part of the "Everyone". But the premise is still there. Continue with part 2 "Just the Preamble....." below
If you really want to show corperations, just don't give them your money. Or at the very least, make them earn it.
Vote with your wallet. And not just with corporations, but with taxes, too, as far too much of that goes straight to corporate interests.
I do, early and often.
We can always occupy here. We won't get one peep from one soul.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/enterprise-rent-a-car-murders-children/#comment-443659
The Revolution starts here!
seriously, why don't all you OWS supporters put money together, buy some cheap land outside of the US and grow your own food, create your own form of leadership and your own form of trade. This will provide you with all of your needs and you would not have to live in this evil country of ours anymore and deal with the crooks on wall street in DC, large stores etc.. you can create a new system based on whatever bothers you about the current system. wouldn't this be the most realistic way to get what you want?
Probably because the land by universal mandate is not for sale... the house you build can be sold... not the land.. you did not create the land, so therefore you have no right to own it. You did not create the apple tree, therefore you have no right to deny any one who desires an apple from the tree in order to sate their hunger... you know... simple philosophy. As for your incorrect assumption as to my perception of the morality of America, I do not ascribe immorality or evil to the land, that I reserve for those who try to claim a right to decide the life and death of others. You know, evil people who think to dictate where people can live, what food they can have, what medicine they may use, etcetc. America was created and realized as a place where people could build a life for themselves and their family. The Constitution was manifested to grant people that ability. It was NOT created to ensure the Manifest Destiny of Capitalism and the sale of Mother Earth. America was created to guarantee AMERICANS Human rights that were denied others in other nations. Capitalism was not one of those defined rights. That was later ad-libbed by the rich later in order to garner them more power over the lives of others. If you don't get what I'm saying by now, you never will. In any event, go in peace, and live a life of harmony and not discord. That is where true Happiness can be found.
Ahhh - the monster rears its ugly head -
Love it or Leave it
The mantra of ignorant cowards
why is that so unreasonable? If you are so unhappy this will provide you with what you are looking for. Maybe you like your freedom and you iPAD and you iPHONE or one of your smart phones or your tablet. Maybe, just maybe you also contribute to these horrible companies who are taking jobs away from america. many people leave where they are and look for freedom in other places. this is nothing new.
boring - but since you asked - i dont own an ipad or iphone or smartphone or tablet
Love it or Leave it
came from adolph to the Jews,
came from tricky to the anti-war marchers
came from torquemada to the Jews
do you really feel clean - being in that family?
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I compiled some shopping guidelines we developed under a forum post here and hosted them at http://bit.ly/DoYourBit where they are widely accessible and can be shared via social networks. Please read the guidelines and, if you agree, spread the http://bit.ly/DoYourBit link as far and wide as possivle using e-mail, twitter, facebook, etc. We need a LOT of people on board if we are to have an impact.
Note there are no ads at http://bit.ly/DoYourBit, and I do not receive any reward other than the satisfaction of helping Americans use their economic power to change America.
Largely agreed. We need to get away from supporting large centrally based mega-corporations. We need to re-establish small communities where people knew each other and helped each other when needed. We need to stop buying unnecessary toys. We need to relearn how to do things for ourselves.
I disagree regarding the internet. I think of the internet in terms of information flow. Corporate sponsored news is not to be trusted. The internet, uncensored, provides access to a tremendous amount of information, although you do have to weed out the crap.
Capitalism is a system that depends on continuous growth. In a world of finite resources it can't work indefinitely.
"Capitalism is a system that depends on continuous growth. In a world of finite resources it can't work indefinitely."
In the free market, prices are the rationing device. Higher prices means that less people will buy it and the more scarce the resource is, the more expensive it is. The more expensive a resource is, the more people start looking for alternatives.
It can work for as long as humanity does.
That's the theory. The old supply and demand. Only partly works.
Where does it not work? Be specific.
How about where those capitalistic supply and demands that make certain food scarce is cause by mega capitalists who pay farmers NOT to grow food so that they can manipulate, forgive me, they call it speculate, how much that rare food will soon become...(through their manipulation of the...what did you call it... oh right.. supply and demand. That is only ONE example. There are thousands of other examples of such societal manipulations by the super rich. Before you go and believe in the virtuousity of the supply market, do your self a favor and find out the truth behind the actual cost to produce the vast majority of products you buy every day.... I believe you will be horrified to discover that the product you purchased for $10.00 really only cost the producer a total overhead of about 0.50 cents to mass produce and market your rare item. Capitalism is a disease when not properly monitored, leads to savage greed and avarice, immorality and ethical deficiencies, and worse yet, a belief that it is okay to rob people blind for a product that cost them next to nothing by telling people that they must buy their product or their lives will suffer. Sad part is, a lot of people are gullible enough to fall for that advertising horsehockey. Fairness is not a fantasy of the poor, it is the mandate of human survival.
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The biggest case are those things that we deem to be necessities. For example food. Most of us are conditioned to think that food comes from the store. Prices go up, we continue to buy regardless..up to a point.
Yeah, the laws of demand still are applicable though. Food as a whole, is relatively inelastic which is why we still buy it when prices go up. But when prices go up, consumption does go down (even if ever so slightly). Gasoline is another good example of an inelastic good.
Arguements about free markets and supply/demand are disingenuous. The problem with society is excessive consumption. Business (free market/ capitalism) is based solely on indoctrinating society that mass consumption, excessive possession and disproportionate wealth is not only normal, but essential for humanity to not only survive, but thrive. This is not only monumental bullshit, it is deliberate malfeasance with the intent of creating a society that preys on itself in its scramble to to possess the most, while those who already possessed the most, sit back and watch the entertainment of a society feeding off of itself. Although the line was used in the movie the Matrix "humanity is like a virus".. the Native American People have always known this truth about humanity. The difference however, is that the Native Americans learned how to be thinking, self-aware viruses. They learned to consume only as much as was needed to survive for the day and to plan only so far as to make it through that years winter. They didn't worry about years and years in the future as you could never predict whether you would still be alive a year away, or that a specific tree or plant would still produce food next year... so on and so on.. the examples are endless. That is one of the reasons why the Native Americans moved from place to place, they sought to create as little of an impact on local resources as they could. In doing so, they insured that Mother Earth would have time to replace what we consumed. Today's Humanity is based solely on consumption with no consideration for the essential necessity of allowing our Mother Earth time to recuperate from the loss of her balanced resources. Humanity is unbalanced, and will continue to be so until humanity stops acting and thinking like a mindless virus. Until we learn to be free thinking, conscientious viruses devoted to renewing our resources twice as fast and as much as we consume them, we will continue to be susceptible to those powers who advocate gluttony in our economy. People must learn to return to the simple basic premise of life... Life is lived one day at a time. But that is not how those in power want you to think. The more strife and struggle there is to possess something, the more they can charge someone for the privilege of possessing something that Mother Earth gave US ALL freely to use. When humanity returns to the balanced position of community (all working for the benefit of all) and not society (work together for protection against others, otherwise return to self serving interests), on that day, the solutions will appear so simple and divine that people will be unable to believe that we never thought to live like that before. However one nation did for centuries, even millennia, before they were conquered by an invading virus known as the Europeans. As a result, that nation was condemned to live in a coma while the virus grew itself on top of it to become our present day world/economy. If humanity is to survive, the virus mentality needs to be destroyed and the patient allowed to awake from the coma. I await that day, though I do not forsee it appearing in my lifetime allotted to me. May the rainbow people appear someday soon and repair the harm that has been done to our Mother Earth before She chastises us to near extinction.
I like your metaphors, and I agree w/ almost everything you say, but I think you give people in power too much credit for being intelligent enough to deliberately devise and maintain a conspiracy of that scope. I do believe that there is conspiracy, but probably pretty low level and more task oriented. Especially in our society we seem to have a problem w/ taking a long view of things. I haven't met and spoken w/ a huge number of 1%ers, but the individuals I have spoken w/ haven't impressed me w/ their intelligence or creativity.
I've been making an effort to try and live as sustainably as possible. I no longer have to buy meat or vegetables. I've only bought one new car in my life, and I live in a modest home. I have plans to reduce my energy use, both by reducing consumption, and utilizing energy incident to the property I live on. I'm making an effort to reduce and reuse waste...And I'm making progress. I also encourage others I'm in contact w/ to do the same, and help w/ time and money when possible.
Ever since the industrial period and the advancement by those evil capitalists, it would be fairly safe to say that society has thrived more than the native Americans.
There are environmental problems for sure but believe it or not, there are avenues within capitalism to fix it.
Yes, like I said.. the "necessities". Food, energy (gas, electricity), housing, health. People do adjust their consumption, for awhile, then it goes back to where it was if they make enough money to support the expense. Kind of like steaming crabs. Start w/ cold water, raise the heat slowly enough and they don't notice. If they do, back off on the heat until they settle down, then turn the heat back up.
Back in the day taking out a 4 year car loan was unusual. I'm told that today 4 and more is the norm. No one seems to bat an eye. Seems like it should be obvious that a nations wealth is tied to their GDP. As the population increases, the GDP has to increase to maintain the status quo. Looking at the fact that the GDP is a function of goods and services..which are a function of available resources, and that resources are finite...It's obvious that this type of system, and the expectations that EVERYONE can do better is unsustainable.
There is a type of regulatory mechanism inherent in the system, but not as described. The ones w/ the means do what they can to solidify their position, and improve it if possible. The system "stabilizes" by stratifying. The differences between the rich and poor increases. The proof is in what we're seeing right now, and it's going to get worse unless we make a change. I could see this coming over 30 years ago, just didn't know when. If I could see it, certainly others could.
They also assail us psychologically. Advertising for example. Not all of us buy into it, but a lot do. You can use the argument that we're free to make our own choices, that we need to learn responsibility, and that would be true. However, when the dice are loaded as heavily as there are against us, it's not surprising that what's happened, happened.
As for the first paragraph, welcome to supply and demand. Once people earn more, they spend more. What a novel idea, you should win the nobel prize in economics.
You misunderstood me. They go back to the same spending habits w/o having earned more. People seem to have a short memory, as well as having a tendency to see what they believe, regardless of the reality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
I have suggested that every person and every nation walk away from their debt.
(Part 2) Just the Preamble to the Constitution alone sums up their intent.... "We the People, in order to form a more perfect union, Establish justice (create laws that EVERYONE has to follow, not just the poor, in addition cops and politicians aren't exempt from the laws either), Ensure Domestic Tranquility (This one alone means, that no one person or group has the right to gain any form of social, political or financial monopoly within our nation which would disenfranchise some in favor of others thereby creating a widespread sense, and in our current state of the union, overwhelming evidence of unfairness and inequality in not only social and political representation in our own Government, but a deliberate intent to beggar the vast majority of our nation financially so that the poor will literally be reclassified as serfs... whose survival will solely depend upon their ability to grovel at the feet of the only ones rich enough to afford the food.) "Provide for the common defense"...pretty self explaining there, we pay taxes to support a military force to protect us from "Enemies.....BOTH foreign and DOMESTIC" And last but not least...."Promote the General Welfare"...again pretty self defining. It means the Government shall provide equal access for all citizens to any and all necessary materials and services that would aid them in maintaining a living standard conducive to maximizing "LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. All of these things found in the simple preamble alone is what the founding fathers saw as the defining roll and responsibility of the Government they hoped to create. A Government OF THE PEOPLE (meaning, representatives chosen from its own citizens), BY THE PEOPLE (meaning, laws, measures and programs created by our intent and will for the benefit of all), and FOR THE PEOPLE (meaning the Government created sole responsibility would be to ensuring the health of the community, or society as some would call it, as a whole. However, a community is many coming together for the benefit of all, whereas, a society comes together only for mutual protection from outside threat but otherwise separates into self serving interests in all other areas.) Well, enough of the History lesson, those who would listen, likely already know our history and the sad truths exposed in it, and those who won't listen, never will learn from history or truth, but will only make up whatever lies they need to to make them feel better about themselves and whatever suffering they are enduring. But in ending, just know, the only solution to our economic woes resides solely in all people in this nation rising up together and removing the rich 1%ers motivation to continue to rape our economy. Hit their wallets, give them no more money....you can do it now, or you can do it when they have finally taken all you have, and thus you have nothing held back to feed your family with. That feeding by the way can be done locally, very little life sustaining food is produced outside of the U.S. Survival has many levels, you can strip to bare minimums now under your own rules, or you can wait til you've been stripped of all you have and then are forced to live below all bare minimums... Tip, use some of your funds to purchase a nice liveable tent, a coleman camp stove if you can't cook over an open fire, buy some good cast iron pans, American made mind you, good outdoor blankets and some sturdy water containers...you know emergency supplies. Then once you have all the bare necessities, quit your job if it is a job with a corporation or business that espouses or entertains foreign sponsorship of our economy. Disrupt these profiteering businesses, and I'm sure they will soon get the message that Americans will no longer be treated as chattel or tools. Their money will only last so long...before they find their businesses suffering from record profit losses. While they are losing their profits, the rest of us will be camping out on congresses doorstep to enlighten them that the law of the Constitution demands that they obey us the 99% of Americans and not the whims and eddies of the 1%. As I said, this is a solution, but not one that most Americans are willing to sacrifice so much for until they no longer have a choice. Wastealo, Mitakuye Oyasin (Good day to you, all my relations) Oyate Wigmuke Niunkis (We are the Rainbow People) The 99%
First we castrate the companies -
We have a large number of great, well thought out, COMPLICATED ideas that will require a huge amount of "selling" and “explanation" and will garner GREAT OPPOSITION.
Every one of our goals can only be achieved by cutting the incestuous link between washington and money - we MUST start here:
ACTION -- JOIN US
We need to be realistic & pick an issue that is simple – and that is proven popular -
that 83% of Americans already agree on -
That even 56% of TP already agree on -
that will bring together the people in OWS with the people outside of OWS.
Everybody wins! ACTION ----> JOIN US
Our only immediate goal should be to pass a constitutional amendment to counter Supreme Court decision Citizens United (2010) , that enable unlimited amounts of anonymous money to flood into our political system.
“Corporations and organizations are not a persons &
have no personhood rights”
We don’t have to explain or persuade people to accept our position – we only have to persuade them to ACT based on their own position. Pursuing this goal will prove to the world that we, at OWS, are a serious realistic Movement, with serious realistic goals. Achieving this goal will make virtually every other goal – jobs, taxes, infrastructure, Medicare – much easier to achieve –
by disarming our greatest enemy – GREED.
ACTION ----> JOIN US
THE SUCCESS STORY OF THE AMENDING PROCESS The Prohibition movement started as a disjointed effort by conservative teetotalers who thought the consumption of alcohol was immoral. They ransacked saloons and garnered press coverage here and there for a few years. Then they began to gain support from the liberals because many considered alcohol partially responsible for spousal and child abuse, among other social ills. This odd alliance, after many years of failing to influence change consistently across jurisdictions, decided to concentrate on one issue nationally—a constitutional amendment. They pressured all politicians on every level to sign a pledge to support the amendment. Any who did not, they defeated easily at the ballot box since they controlled a huge number of liberal, and conservative and independent swing votes in every election. By being a single-issue constituency attacking from all sides of the political spectrum, they very quickly amassed enough votes (2/3) to pass the amendment in Congress. And, within just 17 months, they were successful in getting ¾ of the state legislatures to ratify the constitutional amendment into law. (Others were ratified even faster: Eight —took less than a year. The 26th, granting 18-year-olds the right to vote, took just three months and eight days.)
If they could tie the left and right into a success -
WHY CAN'T WE ??????????
ACTION ----> JOIN US
I feel that we should stay with this simple text to overturn CU:
”corporations are not people” and “money is not free speech”
for four simple reasons and one – not so simple:
1
83% of Americans have already opposed CU in the ABC/Washington post poll and the above
IS THEIR POSITION ALREADY.
2
We don’t have to work to convince people on the validity of our position.
3
Simple is almost always better.
4
This simple Amendment is REQUIRED to overturn CU.
And all other electoral reform can be passed through the normal legislative process.
5
OWS and these pages are chock full of ( mostly ) excellent ideas to improve our country.
All of them have strong advocates – and some have strong opposition.
None of them has been “pre-approved” by 83% of Americans !
Pursuing this goal – without additional specifics is exactly what Americans want.
What do we want? Look at that almost endless list of demands – goals - aims.
Tax the rich. End the Fed. Jobs for all, Medicare for all. So easy to state! Can you imagine how hard it would be to formulate a “sales pitch” for any of these to convince your Republican friends to vote for any of them?
83% of Americans have ALREADY “voted” against CU. And 76% of the Rs did too.
All we have to do ask Americans is to pressure their representatives – by letters - emails – petitions.
Wanna take your family on vacation?
Convince the 7 year old and the 10 year old to go to Mt Rushmore.
Then try to convince them to go to Disneyland.
Prioritizing this goal will introduce us to the world – not as a bunch of hippie radical anarchist socialist commie rabblerousers – but as a responsible, mature movement that is fighting for what America wants.
ACTION ----> JOIN US
I feel that using the tactics of the NRA, the AARP an the TP – who all represent a minority – who have successfully used their voting power to achieve their minority goals - plus the Prohibition Amendment tactics – bringing all sides together - is a straight path for us to success that cannot fail to enable us to create and complete one MAJORITY task.
I want you to go to this post. I want you to speak truth to power!. Say it once, say it twice. Say it loud. Say it proud. I'm down with the KTC. The Revolution starts here!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaRtqrlGy8&feature=related
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
The Revolution starts here! No one can silence the Revolution!