Forum Post: So the pent up anger of Millions of Americans, caused by the Unabashed pummeling Wall St. has subjected us to, is supposed to somehow dissipate with the removal of a few tents, in a park?
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 15, 2011, 9:48 a.m. EST by unarmed
(213)
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LMAO. WTF, do we somehow have the mental capacity of monkeys now? Hell, even monkeys wouldn't be so easily tricked!
No, it was dissipated by the fruitless venting of the protesters, who took all the anger and channeled it to their drum circles and self-congratulatory echo chamber GA's, and never once thought realistically about how to move forward.
The removal of a few tents in a park is the symptom of that dissipation. It - and the lack of outrage at their eviction - is the empirical proof that the anger is waning, that they fucked it up.
Bloomberg didn't order the eviction because things were building to a head. He tried that two weeks ago and it failed. Unlike Occupy, Bloomberg learned from his mistakes. He waited them out. These kids at the park never looked, so they never saw it, but since early November the only momentum they ever gained was gifted to them by the police. It was never anything the protesters did. They only ever gained support by accident, when the police forced the issue.
Now they need to stem the bleeding. It remains to be seen if Occupy has learned anything about how they fucked up, or if they're going to continue ruining our latest chance to retake the world.
But they're already back in nyc,oakland,portland. All the others are already coming back as well. You are deluded if you think this means the end.
No, it's not "the end." But it's not even a stasis and, if you don't learn from this, it's not far from a decline. Is this the vision you subscribe to? Just a long series of smaller and smaller evictions? The revolution ends not with a bang but with police action grown tedious against an ever-shrinking element of dissent?
You can see it here on this forum, on the activity on NYCGA, and in the park itself. The enthusiasm waned weeks ago. The outrage waned weeks ago. You are no longer awakening the people. If following the same road leads inevitably to the same destination, then where will you go from here?
Lol! You keep repeating that lie as if its true. This place keeps getting more and more people on here every damned day. I don't see this imaginary decline that you are talking about. Mainly because it doesn't exist. The more you openly lie, the stronger this gets. I guess success means failure and growing means decline to you. You must have been homeschooled because you do not recognize the reality of this situation. America is pissed at wall street and the government. And its not going away just because a few mentally sick trolls say it is.
America is pissed, but not enough people believe Occupy is the answer. And why should they? What have you shown them?
You can keep tucking your tail between your legs and chanting everything is fine to yourself. I just hope other people show a little more courage than you. Because every time I've visited Zuccotti, there have been fewer people - fewer people there and fewer bystanders paying attention. Each time I come to this forum, there's more noise and less signal. Hopefully other protesters with a little more courage realize this is not ok, this is not the path Occupy needs to take.
Nobody fucked anything up. You do realize that the space of time between the Declaration of Independence and the First American President was several years, right?
It's been two months.
Think harder. Please, I beg if of you. It's not setbacks that are the problem - they are expected. But setbacks without self-awareness are fucking disasters. It's not the timeframe that's the problem - the Civil Rights movement took a decade. But what happened at the park the last three weeks wasn't time spent, it was time wasted.
Let me put it this way. In September, Occupy exploded on the scene with a breathtaking quickness. It had a real chance to start the process of fixing our shit by November 2012. That chance is almost completely gone - because it's not just two months wasted, it's two months and all that momentum.
Ok, fine, what's done is done. But their next chance is now 2014. Look at that. Look long and hard at that. Because of a complete and willful ignorance of reality and its practical specifics, two months wasted translates to two years lost.
And PS, post-edit: if you give me that bullshit line about Occupy doesn't want to play by the rules - the Official Rules, not the bullshit rewriting that Wall St. and moneyed interests are getting away with - I will reiterate that they are completely ignoring reality and its practical specifics. Because they are not going to eradicate and rebuild the political landscape - and the history of political philosophy - in one fell swoop, not in one year, not in ten years, not in a hundred.
It takes time to create a functioning system that can even begin to facilitate communication. To top it all off, they're trying to do that while the Police attempt to destroy them.
Wait for the war on the streets to come to an end, which will only happen when the Police join the Occupy movement. Then you'll see a cultural explosion of thought.
But they're not creating a functioning system that facilitates communication. They're creating a dysfunctional system analogous to taking a bag of ball bearings and hurling it at the floor, and they call it "direct democracy," a pretty name for the exhilaration of chaos, and a misnomer besides.
The police will not join Occupy until Occupy learns how to remind the police of their true mandate. This is fundamental to the system - and it's Official Rules - a fundamental tenet that Occupy is intentionally denying. Why is it that this protest has become about "Us the Occupiers" vs. "Them the Police?" That should never have been the focus.
I agree with you.
It's been two months.
Patience.
I have all the patience in the world. But I also understand (and fuck me for hubris, but sometimes it seems like I'm the only one who understands) that every day carries a cost - that's why I am doing what I can to sound the bell. It will take time, yes, but all that time taken needs to be taken with urgency. That's all I'm saying.
Action need to be taken With Urgency and with Direction. A leaderless movement has no leader. (DUH!) Who is it that we are supposed to follow? There are people putting out mandates that are so general and broad stroke that it is impossible to achieve and/or measure. Why are the very basic requests not included in the release to the press??
Shutting down a company, costing them millions, 'rinse and repeat'? For what purpose? Are you insane or just in need of medication? All you know is that you are mad and unemployed and someone owes you a fair shot at a job, housing, and wipe out your debt.
I am also very put off by all the talk of war and revolution. OWS couldn't pull off a war or revolutionary protest of any kind. Is there no one down there that is former military?? Wars and revolutions require coordination and leadership, neither of which OWS has to any degree. I agree with hairlessOrphan. The movement had merit. The lack of decisive clear leadership and establishing goals or requirements for change never came. Ranting on about 'getting our voices heard', the Boogey Man, and class sizes has gotten this movement NOWHERE.
I have refused to participate in this movement until there is some clear consensus on how to participate and the goals of participation. I will not abandon my job and my family to go sit in a dirty tent and risk being sexually assaulted. What are my other options?? The movement is sloppy, rowdy, dirty, and more than a little bit obtuse. Why do they think that keeping people from work in the ports of Oakland, costing the workers much needed money,...why is this a victory?? Harming others will NOT engender sympathy from the masses, myself included.
why 2014?
2014 are the midterms. There are two places that valid, legitimized reformation of governance can begin. One is in the Legislature. Two is in urban warfare. And the latter can not and must not occur.
entirely untrue. the one thing that surprises me is the lack of useful positioning of these protests. 5,000 people blocking normal operations of a targeted company could result in the loss of million. this would be a huge moral boost and force the situation. a good sit in should do it.
rinse and repeat
Destruction is not the goal. Construction is.
"Forcing the situation" is a gentle and useless way of saying "let someone else decide what you want done." Sit-ins - and creative destruction in general - are useful tactics, but they are a means to an end, not the end itself.
And all Occupy has done so far is use a bunch of meaningless means toward no end. "Rinse and repeat," to what? To what end? It can not be that you believe "we'll just do the work and let some other people decide what we're working towards!" is an intelligent plan.
you guys are going to clog up the subway and turn the public against you. you held down a public park. you have done 0 to effect the institutions you protest. this is why i cannot support the OWS brand. there is no destruction in costing a company money. they will not fire anyone because every company in america is already running skeleton crews. the cost will come out of the pockets of the one percent. [question all types of media] even OWS.
Ok, though this is kind of a different conversation and makes me believe you've misunderstood my point entirely. But I'll roll with it.
When you say, "costing a company money," I have to ask, again: to what end? What is your goal? You just want to cost all companies everywhere money forever? That can't be the extent of your vision of reform. It will certainly cost the 1% in the short run, but in the long run the 99% will see no benefit - in fact, there's an opportunity cost involved, here, and the 99% will certainly pay that, and pay heavy.
well, try to take my statement without running off the deep end with it. earlier today, msnbc reported a list of OWS demands and getting the money out of politics was not on it. they continue to organize people in places that is more likely to turn the public against OWS rather than gain support. take a few minutes and do some critical thinking about your goals and whether or not OWS is doing any better of a job representing you than the corrupt politicians they talk about. OWS is simply a brand and we do not need another middleman. use the resources for what they are worth, but choose your level of participation under any brand.
Yeah, you are not understanding me. That's cool, though. I agree with your call for discernment - in fact, for the last month and a half I have also been trying to demand it of the protesters, of which I am not one. I think that says everything that needs to be said about the conversation you're having, and how I'm not at all involved in it after all.
One note, though, one small correction for you: "the deep end" is not a the triviality you think it is. It is the foundation that legitimizes protests and political action. If you want to do things right, you think from the bottom and build up, then you act from the top and work back down.
Nope, in fact, that anger is going to grow.
Of course it's over.
Really...it never got started, except in people's heads.
"The Whole World Is Watching!"....so?...who cares?
Think again
The park should have used as a temporary place for the gathering of the minds so to speak and gain public support. They did receive money so it should have put aside some of it to rent a hall or something like that so its done legally and without public disturbances. Most of all, the health concerns should have been immediately delt with as these can quickly escalate and become out of control. Sick people cannot be productive in a movement that requires alot of energy.
As hairlessOrphan stated, "No, it was dissipated by the fruitless venting of the protesters, who took all the anger and channeled it to their drum circles and self-congratulatory echo chamber GA's, and never once thought realistically about how to move forward". Why is this continually overlooked?
If you bring up the fact that they lack taking the next step and becoming a real force, then they bring up quotes about being "peasants" and use feel good words like "freedom and justice" to make literally no point, but they say them and act like they won an argument against you.
Folks, here in my SO CAL nieghborhood (middle class) Everyone is not mad as hell and still washing their cars on the weekend and watching football and having a BBQ and eating chichen wings and beer. You are a tiny bunch. Please do not lump all of us in your group. Most of us are happy and working. Got to go, my toast just popped up.
That's exactly what's wrong in this country and why this protest is needed.
So now you want to protest against people who eat toast?
Someone like you CAN'T dispute FOX, can you?
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/11/15/publics-focus-shifts-from-tea-party-to-occupy-wall-street/
"Pew found that 39 percent of Americans support “OWS” while only 35 percent oppose the nascent movement. Another poll from CNN/ORC shows Occupy favored 36 percent to 19 percent.
35% of Americans would be about 100,000,000 Americans, FOX even agrees, why don't you?
Because polls are just polls. They are fake. For instance in my entire life, no one has ever polled me or asked me what I watch on TV. My young Son came home the other day and saw me on this site and asked me ""They still doing that? What do they want?" Most of America is working. We have gridlock every morning. Even though lots of folks are out of work, we still have gridlock.
But that BULLSHIT you just posted about "eating chicken" is supposed to be real? You think we ARE monkeys don't you?
Well, I'm talking about my city. Things are pretty normal here. Folks going to school, waiting for the weekend. What I am saying is that I know many folks are cought up in OWS but most of us are not. A lot of us pay our bills and are not in debt and we live our lives. We are OK with that. Still the best place on earth to live. I've been to those other places that are beyond poor. I do like Chicken wings. Hooters has the best on earth but I make them. I don't think you are a monkey.
I am not going to protest when my life and family are fine. I will protest war. I hate war.
Things won't be normal for you and everyone in your suburban paradise IF these B of A derivatives tank (see link). 75 trillion dollars would be 250,000 (two hundred and fifty thousand dollars) for every Man, Woman and Child in the country
http://seekingalpha.com/article/301260-bank-of-america-dumps-75-trillion-in-derivatives-on-u-s-taxpayers-with-federal-approval
Good post.
Thanks for having the energy to try to convince someone like mandodod. I am growing tired of trying to wake-up people who dont care. I want to take ACTION! there are many people who dont care...someone has to care. we are not a small group. this man pathetically uses the account of his son coming home and not caring as some signal that this movement has no credibility. really!!!??? I am "surviving" and barely getting by despite my hard work, education, but still care about the many who are suffering from the injustice of our broken system. instead of wasting energy trying to convince apathetic people like this guy, focus on action. i agree this needs to get more organized. i am in it for the long haul and hope many others keep the faith and fight for positive change so all Americans--including the apathetic--can benefit.
Let's see what you said here, as far as real hard specifics are concerned. Abstract ideas and words: "ACTION!" "wake-up" "surviving" "injustice" "suffering" "broken" "apathetic" "fight" "change".
Now how about real, concrete, plans and goals:
............
All that up there (^) sure sounds energizing, but it gets you no where. Speeches and stirring words are over. If you want to make a change, it's time to get down to business, make some direction, get support, get political, and for pete's sake BE SPECIFIC about what you are trying to do.
Hi HeavySigh. Wow, thanks for reading all my words! I feel somewhat heard :) And I take your challenge to get more specific. Honestly, I do not yet feel quite ready...this is new for me but I have rolled up my sleeves and have started. Motivation is a start!!! I have started taking action. I have educated myself, I have heard and considered many perspectives, I have engaged in conversations with friends, I have made calls to express my support of freedom of assembly and speech for ALL Americans, whether I agree with them or not. I have written and publicly posted letters outlining my challenges personally experienced with Bank of America as one example of how an average person (small business) has been affected--not to mention how the economy was brought to its knees by gambling banks.
I think more people still need to get involved and care. So I will continue to motivate and "recruit" caring Americans. Through attending General Assemblies, I will list and edit what are MY ideas for reforming our system. Such as:
Campaign finance reform/Electoral reform. Make elected officials more responsive to people's demands. MINIMIZE and fairly balance the influence of corporations and highly wealthy individuals! Fix the system so representatives actually represent the PEOPLE.Fairly and smartly reduce national debt: reduce military waste, tax fairly--definitely room to tax the wealthy. I dont feel I will ever get social security so I am sure people will (MUST) accept increases in the eligibility age. Invest in EDUCATIONMake common sense efforts to improve healthcare. Stop fooling ourselves that we all dont overpay for a broken system. Invest in our national infrastructure to spur the economy. Like HELL if we cant/shouldnt invest in the short term while addressing debt in the near future.Stop the political maneuvering, compromise, discuss and debate and take common sense actions. *Establish and enforce laws that prevent banks from destroying our economy
What are YOUR ideas??? What will YOU do??? Your profile name sounds a little cynical but I hope I am wrong about that.
Me? I'm going to finish college and start my new job. Honestly.
Good luck. Hope it all works out for you. The odds are not in your favor at the moment but I dont wish you any hardship. In the meantime, people like me who care will try to change things for the better.
Totally agree.
So you bash Fox by quoting polls from Pew and CNN?
Seems like Fox was reporting the news on those polls accurately, or are you saying that the polls are wrong and really just .9% of people support OWS?
I'm saying that since the poll appeared on FOX, "mandodod" might take the poll more seriously. I think the poll rebukes his claim, as well as others on this forum, that only a hand full of Americans are disgusted with the fleecing we are receiving from Wall St.
Anyone that is against OWS is a "paid troll from the far right" and "loves to watch only fox news all day and believes everything they say about anything". Apparently at least.
millions, lol
delusions of grandeur when lost in a small crowd
No, I really think they are just enforcing the rules which have been there from the beginning. Seriously I really believe a lot of ows has put on the blinders and it really bothers me. The movement could not camp there forever and it needed to define next steps and it failed to do so. You could see a mile away it was going to come to this and it could have been avoided.
I am so disappointed in this movement and I don't buy this was anything more than trying to enforce the existing park rules which were there long before ows showed up and were not enacted with the purpose of suppressing dissent.
I think ows should cut the pity party short and get back to work, define and take next steps, quit being so fixated on the stupid park and tents and get on message.
Anger of thousands of Americans, caused by the Federal Government.
Yes, thousands of uninformed spoon-feed reich-wingers angry with the government when every they provide programs of social uplift, while millions of hardworking Americans are angry at the actual problems. A corrupted government controlled by wealth and privilege of the 1%. A system that robs and steals from them at every turn, and a media that lies about it all.
Read this article and if you aren't pissed then turn in your American Passport, you don't deserve it.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/301260-bank-of-america-dumps-75-trillion-in-derivatives-on-u-s-taxpayers-with-federal-approval
The banks shouldn't have been bailed out.
Typing LMAO and WTF while trying to convey your thoughts also demean your perspective.
Not when I'm actually LMAO and saying WTF, it doesn't. It's telling the truth.
What you say and how you say it determine how other people derive presumptions about your thought processes.
It doesn't matter what you think about yourself in the least. If you wish to live your life in acronyms and shortcuts, what do you think that says about your character?
When you are dealing with a group of people that would just as soon, spray you in the face with mace, smack you in the spleen with sticks, shoot you in the head with rubber bullets, then run you over with their mercedes, I don't think they would be more compelled by an argument devoid of a few WTF's.
So what you say and how you say it means nothing?
Then why did you embark on such a flagrant paragraph depicting injustice of the people, followed by a personal belief of 'what I say doesn't matter'?
Hypocrisy levels are high.
If you choose to put on your best suit and present your most elegant of dialog, on your way to the gas chamber, that's your business. I'll be the one bitching and screaming until they turn on the gas.
THIS is why this movement failed.
What you say and how you say it matters. It's fairly simple.
No, and No. This movement is just beginning, it won't be over until Wall St is neutered, rendering it incapable of scamming working class Americans out of Billions of Dollars.
As to how you say it, If I were to say "NWA", even you would be able to fill in the blanks, F---T---P------
Yes
LOL! Good luck, retard...you're gonna need it....
I really don't think so.
Was it a trick question?
It's called a rhetorical question, you can call it a "trick" question if you like.